Racist Referendum?

arcadegame2004

Hi.I'm calling this poll to assess views on the Labour Party and No campaign's claims that the citizenship referendum is "racist". Do you think this referendum on ending automatic citizenship rights for children with no Irish-born parents is racist? I don't.

simu

I wouldn't say the referendum is racist in itself but I think that racism might have been one of the motivations for setting it up. No one is worried about the fact that millions of Australian and US citizens are entitled to an Irish passport even though they know nothing about this country but people start to freak out because a fairly small number of children who are not "genetically" Irish get Irish citizenship because they were born here. It's sad that some people consider Americans who go on about their grandmother being Irish to be more Irish than kids who have spent their whole lives here.

Boston

It would apply to every non national. Not a single race, so how would it be racist.

BuffyBot

No one is worried about the fact that millions of Australian and US citizens are entitled to an Irish passport even though they know nothing about this country but people start to freak out because a fairly small number of children who are not "genetically" Irish get Irish citizenship because they were born here.

The numbers who take advantage of that, and actually settle in Ireland are quite small though. Most of the people I know entitled to citizenship only claim it for the passport.

simu

Originally posted by BuffyBot
The numbers who take advantage of that, and actually settle in Ireland are quite small though. Most of the people I know entitled to citizenship only claim it for the passport.

So are the numbers of pregnant women coming here to give birth! The fact that they come from unfamiliar cultures can't be completely irrelevant to the dacesion to carry out this referendum at this time or am I just cynical?! Would not the money being spent on the referendum be better spent on setting up a more efficient service to deal with asylum seekers and economic migrants?

BuffyBot

So are the numbers of pregnant women coming here to give birth!

Well, I guess it depends on how you view it. Most of the "passport" holders aren't living in Ireland aren't coming here and taking full advantage of the asylum system and the associated benefits.

Part of any efficient system would be plugging any existing loopholes which exist already, wouldn't it?

simu

Originally posted by BuffyBot
Well, I guess it depends on how you view it. Most of the "passport" holders aren't living in Ireland aren't coming here and taking full advantage of the asylum system and the associated benefits.

Part of any efficient system would be plugging any existing loopholes which exist already, wouldn't it?

But, knowing the government, they'll forget about the issue after the referendum as they don't care about the problems faced by poor, powerless foreigners - they just want to the public to believe that they are solving a problem which isn't really such a big problem in the first place.

Anyway, why not see the fact that foreigners want to come and live here as a positive fact and give them the chance to become autonomous citizens as soon as possible? The "benefits" of being an asylum seeker are hardly all that wonderful!

arcadegame2004

"So are the numbers of pregnant women coming here to give birth! "(Simu)

I dispute that Simu. I have read the official Dept. of Justice figures which show that 1,893 pregnant women claimed asylum here last year, representing 58% of all female asylum-seekers. If you want to read these statistics go to the "Immigration Referendum" thread and then go to page 2, and click on ai_ing's link that starts with www.justice.ie. Then scroll down the page until you arrive at a heading "Figures for Female Pregnant Asylum Seekers". This proves what I am saying. The "No" side falsely reduce this to 400 by saying (ridiculously) that the only pregnant asylum-seekers that are citizenship-tourists are thos who arrive in Ireland 32 weeks pregnant or later and then give birth in a Dublin hospital. We know that 21% of births outside of Dublin are non-national.

BuffyBot

The "benefits" of being an asylum seeker are hardly all that wonderful!

Depends where you're coming from, doesn't it?

Cork

Originally posted by Boston
It would apply to every non national. Not a single race, so how would it be racist.

It also applies accross the EU.

why not see the fact that foreigners want to come and live here as a positive fact and give them the chance to become autonomous citizens as soon as possible?

This government issues many work permits. This referendum is about curbing potential abuse of Irish citizenship rules. This same situation will apply in Ireland as in other EU countries.

Not alone has the government to protect any potential abuse of Irish citizenship rules but of EU citizenship rules as well.

sceptre

Originally posted by Cork
Not alone has the government to protect any potential abuse of Irish citizenship rules but of EU citizenship rules as well.

The EU doesn't have citizenship rules. it's a matter for the individual states.

ixoy

I can't say that it is. If you're calling it racist, then the racist label must be applied to all our fellow EU members. Automatic citizenship wasn't meant to exist.
What's more likely is for this to stir up some racial tension in some form. Releasing figures that show disproportionate birth rates will add fuel to some fire. It may highlight racist tendencies in our country but the referendum, in and of itself, is only fixing something that was never meant to exist.

arcadegame2004

"The EU doesn't have citizenship rules. it's a matter for the individual states." (sceptre).

Oh yes it does. Citizens of the EU-15 are those who already have citizenship of an EU state. If the nation-state grants you citizenship therein then you also have EU citizenship. Under the Maastricht Treaty this entitles you to move between, work in, live in, and vote in (local government and European elections) EU-15 states (the EU prior to yesterday's enlargement. The Accession Treaty allows EU-15 states to impose restrictions on immigration from the new Eastern members of the EU until 2009. though these generally are not applied to Cyprus and Malta, owing to their small populations.

So getting into the EU-15 is a great help to an illegal immigrant trying to search for the most lucrative asylum-system. Which is us.

sceptre

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
"The EU doesn't have citizenship rules. it's a matter for the individual states." (sceptre).

Oh yes it does. Citizens of the EU-15 are those who already have citizenship of an EU state. If the nation-state grants you citizenship therein then you also have EU citizenship. Under the Maastricht Treaty this entitles you to move between, work in, live in, and vote in (local government and European elections) EU-15 states (the EU prior to yesterday's enlargement. The Accession Treaty allows EU-15 states to impose restrictions on immigration from the new Eastern members of the EU until 2009. though these generally are not applied to Cyprus and Malta, owing to their small populations.

So getting into the EU-15 is a great help to an illegal immigrant trying to search for the most lucrative asylum-system. Which is us.

<sigh>
I guess I'll have to make my reply to Cork's post clear for your benefit then. The EU doesn't have specific rules on who becomes a citizen other than confirming the right to EU citizenship on all citizens of the individual states - the right to become same is a matter for the individual states. Which is kind of what I said rather than denying whatever conspiracy theory and bogeyman that may be popular on Sundays. What you've knocked out is a list of rights for citizens rather than rules on citizenship (which still remain with the individual member states). I'll make my posts very clear in future just for your benefit. You're welcome.