Family Praises Torturer

Memnoch

I'm not sure how many ppl saw "Agenda" on TV3 tonight at about midnight.. they pointed out an intersting newspaper article. Apparently some Irish newspaper got in touch with the family of the FEMALE soldier "Lydia" whose shown in the picture of the Iraqi prisoner being abused.

Their opinon on the matter is that she is a Hero for what she did.

They also believe that america should stop wasting time in Iraq, and should pull out the troops and simply nuke the place.

Her family live in a trailer park in Virginia.

An interesting point made by the commentators on Agenda was that this wasn't an "american" mentality. but a "bush" mentality...

something I would agree with...

while i'm sure that most americans find this kind of behaviour disgusting, there are many of them that share views similar to the family of this woman.

Considering that the BUSH administration is happy to export prisoners to other countries to be tortured, one has to wonder why all this comes as a "surprise" to so many people. Especially in light of recent statements made by Amnesty international regarding the widespread nature of abuse.

also from CNN

Citing a report by Maj. Gen. Antonio Taguba, New Yorker writer Seymour Hersh said the mistreatment of prisoners was done "to break down somebody before interrogation" at the direction of U.S. military intelligence. One Iraqi was killed during an interrogation, he said.

Memnoch

for those interested i believe the article was supposed to be on page 10 of one of the sunday papers, though I didn't catch the name of the paper.. maybe someone who did can post up the article

vorbis

seems pretty similar to the nutters in Palestine who praise suicide bombers.

Sarky

Only Christianity tends to praise people who recieve torture, not administer it.

Also, when all is said and done, suicide bombing is a very impressive sacrifice to make, whatever the reason or motives behind it.

vorbis

Only Christianity tends to praise people who recieve torture, not administer it.

true, but I don't think its a Christian, more a nutty family thing.

Memnoch

Originally posted by vorbis
seems pretty similar to the nutters in Palestine who praise suicide bombers.

i'm sure you understand deeply the psychology behind a man or woman that will kill themselves and many others in the process of ending their lives.

but lets not get into that lets stay on topic pls

what has palestine or suicide bombers got to do with this?

sceptre

Originally posted by Sarky
Only Christianity tends to praise people who recieve torture, not administer it.

Reminds me of that joke about the Catholics insisting on the hell torture:)

Originally posted by Memnoch
Their opinon on the matter is that she is a Hero for what she did.

They also believe that america should stop wasting time in Iraq, and should pull out the troops and simply nuke the place.

Let's assume I posted something relevant about the lack of connection of Iraq, Saddam's regine and Arabs in general to the 911 attack. Saves me the bother. Lots of kids are heroes in their parents eyes. It doesn't actually make them heroes.

Her family live in a trailer park in Virginia.

Terrible thing that any family has to live on a trailer park. I blame capitalism taken to extremes and a lack of money put into education.

What the hell did anyone expect me to say?

Memnoch

maybe i'm just being stupid here, but your post seems a touch cryptic sceptre, except the last bit off course.. i agree no family should be forced to live in those circumstances...

dunno why it was mentioned on the program, i think there is some relevence though,
perhaps indicates that a lot of these soldiers come from backgrouns that may not be well educated on the realities of iraq etc and this would be then reflected in their actions...

sceptre

Didn't mean to be cryptic, I blame Mr Guinness.

What I meant was that if her family (or any family) reckons that Iraq should be nuked for whatever reason to save their daughter the hassle of getting on a plane and doing whatever she does over there (and obviously whatever she does in her spare time (which may or may not include torturing people for the sheer hell of sadism)). then there's a greater and deeper problem than their perception of the Iraq conflict. Can they find Iraq on a map? Can they make a connection between Iraq and the plane hijackings? Assuming that they can't (because no-one else can) do they know why their daughter is even in Iraq (I'm even leaving aside the rights or wrongs of that)? And most importantly, if they can't find Iraq on a map, why the hell not?

Which may well be why you posted the article in the first place.

Obviously while Bush apparently likes to put bombs before education of the morlocks or even feeding them, he's not the first to ignore the needs of the great unwashed for proper education and up to date schoolbooks.

Memnoch

yes i would agree with you.

recent studies suggest that a lot of americans are misinformed with regards to the iraq war...

many believe its to fight "terrorism"
others still believe that WMD were "found"
others ofc follow the official govt. line that it was to get saddam all along..


how much does the average american know about iraq or the actual situation there?
how many americans have an attitude similar to this girl's family, of hatred and racism born probably out of sheer ignorance...

how many of the soldiers in Iraq come from families with ideas such as this?

sure its not right to torture people, but terrorists aren't people are they?

halkar

Nuke US and all the world's problems solved, we can live happily after
I am not surprised with the level of their racism as it still exist in US with all that white man is superior bullsh!t.

Memnoch

Originally posted by halkar
Nuke US and all the world's problems solved, we can live happily after
I am not surprised with the level of their racism as it still exist in US with all that white man is superior bullsh!t.

and this folks, is how events like 9/11 happen.

hatred is bred in the muslim world because of such actions by the west...

therecklessone

Originally posted by Memnoch
and this folks, is how events like 9/11 happen.

hatred is bred in the muslim world because of such actions by the west...

Maybe that, or maybe this...

Originally posted by Memnoch
dunno why it was mentioned on the program, i think there is some relevence though, perhaps indicates that a lot of these soldiers come from backgrouns that may not be well educated on the realities of iraq etc and this would be then reflected in their actions...

Maybe the Muslim world needs some education, needs to have it made clear that not all Westerners share the opinion of Bush and his cronies. Though I've yet to see an Islamic military reaction that has been proportionate and reasoned, have you?

Memnoch

Originally posted by therecklessone



Maybe the Muslim world needs some education, needs to have it made clear that not all Westerners share the opinion of Bush and his cronies. Though I've yet to see an Islamic military reaction that has been proportionate and reasoned, have you?

oh i never implied that,

however the FACT of the matter is, that a LOT maybe even a majority of americans are mis-informed about the facts of the Iraq war.

Again why do you think the muslim world thinks this? Maybe its because no one has acted to stop bush's atrocities?

What islamic military reaction? I haven't seen one....
moreover, what proportionate and reasoned? When has the US acted in this manner?

therecklessone

Originally posted by Memnoch


What islamic military reaction? I haven't seen one....
moreover, what proportionate and reasoned? When has the US acted in this manner?

I used military, because if I said terrorist I'd have had half the board jump on me in a flash. Take military to mean all islamic reaction which has involved some form of military-like action, be that attacks on US forces in Iraq or suicide bombers in Palestine. Without wanting to go off topic, yeaterday's murder of a mother and her four children in Israel was playing on my mind when I posted that...

Back on topic...

I don't believe US actions have been proportionate or reasonable. But I don't believe the Sept 11 attacks count as reasonable or proportionate either. Nor would nuking the US, would it? I could go on, but I trust you've got the picture.

Memnoch

Originally posted by therecklessone
I used military, because if I said terrorist I'd have had half the board jump on me in a flash. Take military to mean all islamic reaction which has involved some form of military-like action, be that attacks on US forces in Iraq or suicide bombers in Palestine. Without wanting to go off topic, yeaterday's murder of a mother and her four children in Israel was playing on my mind when I posted that...

Back on topic...

I don't believe US actions have been proportionate or reasonable. But I don't believe the Sept 11 attacks count as reasonable or proportionate either. Nor would nuking the US, would it? I could go on, but I trust you've got the picture.

military action as a rule tends to be unreasonable....

I think it would be rare to find instances of "proportionate or reasonable" military action. But I guess it all depends doesn't it..

what was sept 11 in retaliation for? And if we cound the number of ppl that died in sept 11 and compare that to the number of people that have died in the "retaliation" by the US forces in iraq or afghanasthan, one can highly call that reasonable or proportionaite.

I agree that nuking anyone is going too far.

Again as regards to Israel, count the number of palestinian civilians that have died and the number of israelis civilians. Many more palestinian's have died.

only difference is that the west and israel always claim that when they kill civilians its "collateral damage and regrettable but necessary" and when the palestinians or muslims do it its "terrorism"

but again I begin to stray off topic.

i still don't understand what your ORIGINAL point was with regards all this though?

if you're trying to say that military action is a bad idea, then I agree.

I've yet to see a "proportionate and reasonable" military response.

vorbis

not sure myself either what the point was. I'd hazard a guess that a lot of the middle east is just as mis-informed as the people you're on about in the US, memnoch. So the flip side, perhaps some of the muslim countries might try to understand why America has felt the need to invade Iraq.

Trebor

i think its about perception.

that family proably think that the guy their daughter was torturing was a "bad man" and deserved what he got as they could not think of their daughter doing that to a "good man". so whan asked what they think they would reply "yes, our daughter was right to toture that bad man" but the media does not tell us what the family think of the situation only that they support their daughter who they believe is fighting for "truth, freedom and the American way", <American Anthem starts> every one feel free to retch.

Memnoch

Originally posted by vorbis
not sure myself either what the point was. I'd hazard a guess that a lot of the middle east is just as mis-informed as the people you're on about in the US, memnoch. So the flip side, perhaps some of the muslim countries might try to understand why America has felt the need to invade Iraq.

Whats there to understand?

america had no justification in invading iraq, they invaded on the pretext of needing to "defend themselves" which was obviously un true.

Tell me vorbis, honestly one simple question,
do you watch fox news?
and how regularly do you watch it?

honestly now.

halkar

Originally posted by vorbis
not sure myself either what the point was. I'd hazard a guess that a lot of the middle east is just as mis-informed as the people you're on about in the US, memnoch. So the flip side, perhaps some of the muslim countries might try to understand why America has felt the need to invade Iraq.

And why do you think America invaded Iraq vorbis? (note that you are using invade there.)
Freedom? democracy? Wmds? If you still beleive those then its time to take your head out of the sand and turn your head away from Fox news to see light. I think muslim countries knows why US invaded Iraq better than you and I do. They think they will put their forces right in the center of Middle East so they can control and threat the region with their muscles but they will fail horribly and go back their home if they are lucky. I will not even go into Israel's role in all this middle east and Iraq mess.
So how about perhaps west should understand why is the terrorism knocking their doors? As Memnoch said there are far more civilian Iraqis and Afghanis died than terrorism attacks that killed, same in Israel almost 4 palestinians to 1 Israeli. But the real problem is you kill 1 in middle east and you turn 10 against you, add to this the Western politics to Middle East and you might be able to sum up why people of Middle East and muslim world does not like US and they don't want to slave themselves and choose to die instead. That is something I admire, Iraqis have better reasons to fight and die than US does at the moment.

therecklessone

Originally posted by vorbis
not sure myself either what the point was. I'd hazard a guess that a lot of the middle east is just as mis-informed as the people you're on about in the US, memnoch. So the flip side, perhaps some of the muslim countries might try to understand why America has felt the need to invade Iraq.

Thats pretty close.

I mentioned the concept of reasonable and proportinate reaction because so much of the reaction is indiscriminate. Lets take the exampleof the woman and her four children murdered yesterday. Can anyone justify that? If, as Halkar states, Palestinians would rather die than be enslaved, then why do they feel the need to take the lives of innocents in the process? Couldn't they try an attack on an Israeli military position, they'll still die but in much more noble manner...

I'd rather not open up a whole different can of worms though. What I meant in the original post was much as vorbis says in the quote. The Islamic world can be as ignorant and uneducated as smalltown America, with equally as tragic consequences.

Victor

Originally posted by Memnoch
They also believe that america should stop wasting time in Iraq, and should pull out the troops and simply nuke the place.

But the oil, won't somebody think about the oil?

therecklessone

Originally posted by Memnoch
military action as a rule tends to be unreasonable....

Very broad statement.

Was Poland unreasonable when it fought unvading German troops in September 1939?

Or closer to our time, were Iraqi troops wrong to fight invading US troops during the current conflict?

We'd all like to live in a world free from violence, but in the real world military action can be, and often is, justified.

Memnoch

Originally posted by therecklessone
Thats pretty close.

I mentioned the concept of reasonable and proportinate reaction because so much of the reaction is indiscriminate. Lets take the exampleof the woman and her four children murdered yesterday. Can anyone justify that? If, as Halkar states, Palestinians would rather die than be enslaved, then why do they feel the need to take the lives of innocents in the process? Couldn't they try an attack on an Israeli military position, they'll still die but in much more noble manner...

I'd rather not open up a whole different can of worms though. What I meant in the original post was much as vorbis says in the quote. The Islamic world can be as ignorant and uneducated as smalltown America, with equally as tragic consequences.

i'm not going to try and justify it because i feel that attacking civilians is wrong, and both the israelis and the palestinians do it.

However i'll try and explain possilby the rationale behind the palestinian thinking..

1) They have to hit back against the israeli's they want revenge
2) They could attack a military target, where most likely they would die and not succeed and not hurt anyone
3) so they attack soft targets because its all in their power to attack.

the problem with these "rules" is that they are made by the "winning" side. Yet despite having an overpowering military the israeli have killed countless palestinian civilians. In fact the israelis have killing more civilians "accidently" (according to them) than the palestinians have killed "deliberately". Some descrepancy there no doubt.

Yes you made a good point about self-defence. Unfortunately the US used self defence as an excuse to invade iraq.

vorbis

do you watch fox news?

Its my favourite news station.
seriously, I live in Ireland and I don't have sky. Theres no way I could watch it.

add to this the Western politics to Middle East and you might be able to sum up why people of Middle East and muslim world does not like US and they don't want to slave themselves and choose to die instead. That is something I admire, Iraqis have better reasons to fight and die than US does at the moment.

ah but Halkar, you're following you own spin there with the west "enslaving" the muslim world. They control one of the most valuable resources in the world. No western power is enslaving any of them.

the problem with these "rules" is that they are made by the "winning" side.

so targetting civilians is ok, since its awkward to attack military targets.

therecklessone

Originally posted by Memnoch


However i'll try and explain possilby the rationale behind the palestinian thinking..

1) They have to hit back against the israeli's they want revenge
2) They could attack a military target, where most likely they would die and not succeed and not hurt anyone
3) so they attack soft targets because its all in their power to attack.

See, if that was me I'd stop at 2. Nothing justifies them deliberately choosing civilian targets as they continually do. There's an obvious problem when you attack a military target positioned in a civilian area, but deliberately setting out to kill or maim civilians is unacceptable.

I don't expect revolutionaries to put on uniforms and fight pitched battles with a superior military force, guerilla tactics are acceptable. But strapping explosives to your body and detonating them on a bus load of civilians makes you a murderer, not a freedom fighter. And no amount of state-sponsored terrorism or subjugation changes that.

I suppose its this thinking that led me to make the comment about "proportionate and reasoned responses" by Islamic resistance movements. As long as they choose option #3 above they are as bad as the state agencies they respond to.

Memnoch

Originally posted by vorbis
so targetting civilians is ok, since its awkward to attack military targets.

i never said that.

its never okay or justifiable.... it is however "understandable"

Memnoch

Originally posted by therecklessone
See, if that was me I'd stop at 2. Nothing justifies them deliberately choosing civilian targets as they continually do. There's an obvious problem when you attack a military target positioned in a civilian area, but deliberately setting out to kill or maim civilians is unacceptable.

I don't expect revolutionaries to put on uniforms and fight pitched battles with a superior military force, guerilla tactics are acceptable. But strapping explosives to your body and detonating them on a bus load of civilians makes you a murderer, not a freedom fighter. And no amount of state-sponsored terrorism or subjugation changes that.

I suppose its this thinking that led me to make the comment about "proportionate and reasoned responses" by Islamic resistance movements. As long as they choose option #3 above they are as bad as the state agencies they respond to.

slight difference,
you haven't had your entire family killed by american or israeli troops.

its really easy to sit on top of a pedestal and pass judgement and claim what you "would" do were you in that situation.

but the truth is, until you have been in that situation its pretty much impossible to say how you will REALLY react.

therecklessone

Originally posted by Memnoch


but the truth is, until you have been in that situation its pretty much impossible to say how you will REALLY react.

OK, I'll concede that.

Doesn't make it right. Doesn't justify it. Would still make me as bad as the people I was reacting to.

Those that choose murder and mayhem are cowardly, not desperate.

And I don't believe that every person who takes up arms against Isreal, the US, or the West has experienced such loss. So what excuse have they got?

Memnoch

Originally posted by therecklessone
OK, I'll concede that.

Doesn't make it right. Doesn't justify it. Would still make me as bad as the people I was reacting to.

Those that choose murder and mayhem are cowardly, not desperate.

And I don't believe that every person who takes up arms against Isreal, the US, or the West has experienced such loss. So what excuse have they got?

i did not say it made it right nor that it justified it,

however some poor young muslim kid who has lost his family, or people he loved, who were prolly innocent to US/israeli forces, who has no prospect in life because he has been disposessed of land and home. Its much more understandable that he would resort to this kind of thing, than what the US/israeli's do.

Another point to think of is that if we stop and look at things from the muslim worlds point of view in general... what do they see of the M/E situation?

1) Massive ethnic cleansing of palestinians going on unchecked for some time now
2) Israeli's doing pretty much anything they please
3) US support israel.
4) There are many UN resolutions against Israel but nothing is done
5) US veto's many UN resolutions against Israel...
6) US invades afghanasthan leaves it worse off than it was under the taliban
7) US invades iraq in an act of pure agression, many iraqi civilians die, many more simply dissapear, never to be heard from again. Many are arrested without charge, locked up, and are never heard from again, denied access to lawyers and press and family. How many of these are being tortured and abused?

where is justice, where is international and humanitarian law, or equality?

certainly not for the palestinians, not for the iraqi's, so would feel the arab muslim world.

The Israeli's/US do whatever they want and get away with it.... yet we expect people in the arab world to act according to international and humanitarian law?

What will it get them? what will it do?

who stands up for the rights of Palestinians? Who is going to invade israel and "liberate" palestine... How many countries lined up to "Liberate" kuwait from Iraq? Why not force israel to confine itself to UN decided borders that were fair? (because Israeli ethnic cleansing has altered the situation on the ground??)


I'm not saying that blowing up civilians is the answer...

but then what is the answer? certainly as long as the US stays behind israel and endorses ridiculous ideas like the latest sharon plan not to mention assassination of palestinian leaders (again against international criminal law) then what can they do?

this kind of action eg 9/11 is born out of frustration. they can't do anything, so they strike out, against those whom they feel are responsible, and if they can't get them, they go after people close to them...

I said this before and I'll say it again...

I come from a conservative Hindu(family). My family has been traditionally anti-muslim. I have always had a thing against "terrorism" because of the situation in Jammu and Kashmir in India. Yet when I look at the current situation and the actions of the US in afghanisthan and Iraq, i am enraged. How can anyone who believes in truth, justice, "freedom" not be?

If this is the effect the events have on me?
imagine, what effect will the events have on young muslim men throughout the arab world?
what about young muslim men who have lost family?
what about young muslim men who have been displaced from their homes?
what about young muslim men who have no prospect of a better life because of the israelis?

if you can understand this, then maybe you can understand why someone would resort to killing themselves and other innocents along with them.

Frank Grimes

Along with what Memnoch said, when you take a look at things like this article on BBC's site.

What other way can these people react? I'm not saying it's right, but when the only soldier who's been charge in the last few years receives such lenient punishment as:

Kuretsky was found guilty of manslaughter over the killing, was sentenced to six months in prison - though four of them will take the form of community service - and was demoted to the rank of first lieutenant.

So, they shoot dead a kid and he gets a few months picking up rubbish or painting stuff?
The Israelis pretty much have free run over there, no matter what they do (it seems) America will back them so any action the UN may try to take will be vetoed.
So what options do the Palestinians have? Just give up?