Family Praises Torturer

vorbis

who stands up for the rights of Palestinians? Who is going to invade israel and "liberate" palestine

The arab countries have tried the invade Israel thing a couple of times. Hasn't worked out.

imagine, what effect will the events have on young muslim men throughout the arab world?
what about young muslim men who have lost family?
what about young muslim men who have been displaced from their homes?
what about young muslim men who have no prospect of a better life because of the israelis?

Muslim men outside Palestine have no reason to be worked up. Those inside Palestine might consider working towards establishing a lasting peace with Israel. The first step to that is the Palestinians themselves deciding on a recognised leader. The US supports Israel partly because it is the only country in the ME with a government close to their own and also because the arab countries would most likely invade if they pulled out.

Originally posted by Memnoch

6) US invades afghanasthan leaves it worse off than it was under the taliban

How were womens rights under the taliban,did many go to school? or is this here just to make it a bigger list for you? and exactly how is your list on topic this time exactly?
You told me in the thread that I linked there that you weren't going to answer a related point because it was "off topic" by your strict guidelines yet you are willing to do so in this case without any reference to how tightly you like to keep to your topic title.
It makes me think "off topic" is a convenient tool of debate, used when the discussion gets tricky and then it's to be dropped at will when it suits-Is that it?
Or have you made a mistake and was this new thread not to specifically discusss the family that praised the torturer and to guage opinion on them.
Thats your excuse on opening the other torture thread, are there different guidelines here?
Is off topic defined different here?

Frank Grimes

Originally posted by vorbis
Muslim men outside Palestine have no reason to be worked up.

Muslims everywhere tend to look upon one another as brothers and sisters.
They have every reason to be worked up.

leonotron

Originally posted by Memnoch
maybe i'm just being stupid here, but your post seems a touch cryptic sceptre, except the last bit off course.. i agree no family should be forced to live in those circumstances...

I doubt they were forced, my parents were not forced to live in an expensive house in Glasnevin, they worked for it.

vorbis

Muslims everywhere tend to look upon one another as brothers and sisters.
They have every reason to be worked up.

being brainwashed lately? They're still human. I certainly doubt the syrians and iranians hold the Palestinians in such affection. I've notcied that interviews with these people result in them saying far more about the evil US than about trying to help their Palestinian "brothers".

Frank Grimes

Originally posted by vorbis
I certainly doubt the syrians and iranians hold the Palestinians in such affection. I've notcied that interviews with these people result in them saying far more about the evil US than about trying to help their Palestinian "brothers".

So other Muslims aren't getting "worked up" then? Make up your mind.
And no I'm not being brainwashed or whatever you're trying to say.
So what do you think people should do? Just ignore the Palestinians and let Israel do whatever it wants?
When you say:

The first step to that is the Palestinians themselves deciding on a recognised leader

Any leader they have Israel seems to consider them to be a terrorist and refuses to deal with.

The US supports Israel partly because it is the only country in the ME with a government close to their own and also because the arab countries would most likely invade if they pulled out.

I'm being brainwashed?

vorbis

are you saying, Frank Grimes that the surrounding Arab countries would choose not to invade if the US severed its ties with Israel? I think differently myself. What I meant is that the surrounding countries are getting worked up about America. I doubt that they're actually worried about the Palestinians themselves.

Any leader they have Israel seems to consider them to be a terrorist and refuses to deal with.

Before this intifadam, the Palestinians had Arafat as a credible leader and the Israelis negotiated with him. Those negotiations nearly succeeded so there is some evidence that the Israelis will come to the negotiating table when the guy who is sitting opposite him is able to control what happens in Palestine.

Frank Grimes

Originally posted by vorbis
are you saying, Frank Grimes that the surrounding Arab countries would choose not to invade if the US severed its ties with Israel?

I meant about the US support for Israel.

Before this intifadam, the Palestinians had Arafat as a credible leader and the Israelis negotiated with him. Those negotiations nearly succeeded so there is some evidence that the Israelis will come to the negotiating table when the guy who is sitting opposite him is able to control what happens in Palestine.

I'm talking about the current situation, also Israel now sees Arafat as fair game for assasination by the looks of things.

halkar

Originally posted by vorbis
...ah but Halkar, you're following you own spin there with the west "enslaving" the muslim world. They control one of the most valuable resources in the world. No western power is enslaving any of them.

No Vorbis, They don't control most valuale resources in the world. I doubt Opec could stop production and protest what is going on and collapse the world's economy as they did before. With the growing aggression and threat of the West on their governments whom Western powers would love to bring down and give them freedom and democracy as they are doing to Iraq they are prety much slaved.

therecklessone, no kiling of human being is justified, being suicide bombing or carpet bombing or torture. If Palestinians start attacking Israeli military they will be going in war I think Israelis would love to see as then they can strike on Palestinians and wipe them out while we west do nothing about it. I think Israelis are far more fanatic than Muslims or Christians can ever be as many beleives that it was their promised land and they have right to be there and they where there before arabs so everyone else has to go but they to stay until their messiah turns. They are brain washed in their schools and in the army where everyone has to go when they reach the ace. They are very far from being democratic as far as i can see and the latest plan of Sharon proved how racist they can be. I don't care what the rest thinks but they don't want anyone there other than Jews. If you are a muslim or arab living in Israel with Israeli passport and marry to a Palesinian or arab or any muslim from Palestinian lands (which is very common there) you either live apart or give your Israeli nationality and leave the country. Now tell me how democratic is this? Its a new law you can google for details if you want. You can also read some of the posts in their forums to see how sick and old minded they are. They still have their head in fairy tales of thousands of years ago.
I don't know nor understand their religion but for whatever reason they just won't integrate with rest of the world, if they did most of the world would be jew by now. For their selfish actions in middle east I see them as a big threat to the world as they are there for nothing but to cause trouble with their politics. They should be given their lessons and sanction like Iraq did. Everyone else gets sanctioned in the region but Israel does far worst and gets away with it and calls themselves democratic. Democracy is not just about electing your government.

Originally posted by halkar
No Vorbis, They don't control most valuale resources in the world. I doubt Opec could stop production and protest what is going on and collapse the world's economy as they did before.

Actually an eminent economist might disagree with you there halkar and this time I hope he's right and not you.

therecklessone

Jebus this is getting so far off-topic its frightning.

Two quick points then I'm out of here for good.

Memnoch:

Take two examples...15 of the 19 hijackers on Sept 11 were Saudi. British Muslims, raised in the UK, have become involved in suicide bombings in Israel. None of these people have suffered at the hands of the US/Israel. Yet they were as extreme as any of the so-called Palestinian freedom fighters. And I find it hard to believe that it all stems from from anger at Israel's actions in the region. Remember, many Islamic fundamentalists are still p*ssed-off that the Moors were thrown out of Spain...:rolleyes:

You can't explain all of the instances of extremist reaction by pointing at Big Bad Israel. Its a conveniant excuse, always has been, always will be. Face it, certain sections of Islam detest the West, not because of our "freedoms" as Dubya would have you believe, but because of how we choose to exercise those freedoms. We choose pornography, we choose alcohol, we choose music FFS. And they hate that.

Yes, Isreali and US actions help fan the flames. Extremists appear to have all the answers for disaffected Muslim youth, but remove that background and you will still have thousands who want to wreak havoc. And then it will be our fault because we encourage "fornication" or "blasphemy". You can't win.

Finally...

originally posted by Memnoch
where is justice, where is international and humanitarian law, or equality?

certainly not for the palestinians, not for the iraqi's, so would feel the arab muslim world.

If the Arab Muslim world is so concerned with the lot of Palestinians, then they might try by making them feel welcome in the land of their Muslim brothers, instead of leaving them in refugee camps strewn across the Middle East. Or maybe it suits the Arab Muslim world to prolong the agony, so that they can keep up their pressure on Israel.

Halkar:

originally posted by halkar
I don't know nor understand their religion but for whatever reason they just won't integrate with rest of the world, if they did most of the world would be jew by now.

Where does one start?

You don't know their religion, but you somehow feel if they integrated they'd be the dominant religion? Is that a fear of yours? Or do you think we'd all just be so happy at finding out how loving and inclusive Judaism is we'd convert?

Channel 4 showed a documentary called Sons Of Abraham on Sunday night. I caught a small excert involving an interview with a young Muslim (who had either studied Judaism, or converted from it to Islam) who declared Judaism to be a dirty religion. When asked did he think the world would eventually become predominantly Muslim he answered yes, whether through choice or "the rifle". So "Israelis are far more fanatic than Muslims or Christians"? Depends on which ones you're talking to. Try a trip to some of the more infamous London mosques for a start.

bonkey

Originally posted by therecklessone
Jebus this is getting so far off-topic its frightning.

I've a solution for that :

Thread closed.

jc