Luas - The Wrong Trams are on the Tallaght Line

P11 Comms

LUAS - The Wrong Trams are on the Tallaght Line.

Date: May 6, 2004
From: Derek Wheeler - PRO, Platform11
Issued by: Platform11 Press Office
Platform11, the national railway lobby organisation, have today expressed serious concerns about the type of tram due to be used on LUAS Line A between Tallaght and Abbey Street. The “Citadis” units on the Tallaght line are considerably shorter than their counterparts on Line B between Stephens Green and Sandyford. At a time when public transport solutions for Dublin are moving at a snails pace, a situation like this should be addressed immediately.80,000 plus people live in the Tallaght area alone. Demand for LUAS will be high.

A large Park “n” Ride facility has been built at the Red Cow for the surrounding area adding further demand.LUAS, being a light rail system, has a significantly lower capacity threshold than standard gauge railways, so the capacity threshold should be maximised. Longer Trams facilitate this.

There is currently no known reason why the longest Trams possible have not been sanctioned for the Tallaght line.

Platform11 supports the LUAS concept, but as opening day approaches a number of issues such as this need to be addressed. The people of Tallaght could easily think they have been short changed in relation to LUAS. They have waited 25 years for some form of rail connection. When the Line opens it should be capable of providing the best possible service. The use of shorter trams will not permit this.

An immediate decision should be taken to divide the longer tram units in use on the Sandyford line, between both lines for rush hour services. The shorter trams can provide off peak services.

An order for additional carriages to lengthen the smaller trams should be placed immediately.

We have waited many years and put up with much disruption. When LUAS opens it must be right. Its not an experiment. Platform11 calls on the RPA to immediately explain how or why a situation like this has developed.

ENDS 05/06/04

BrianD

It would be better if you stated this as an opinion and not a matter of fact. The right trams are on the red line as this is what was ordered for the line. Your headline indicates that somebody delivered the wrong trams to each depot!!

You must also remember that Tallaght is a centre in itself. Many people that live there also work and shop there. They go to town as an exception to the rule. Unlike most areas on the green line that gravitate towards the city centre.

In am surprised that they don't have a mix of both types of trams to cover all eventualities. Of the 40 trams delivered to both lines only 14 are of the longer length (40m as compared to 30m) There is also the option of coupling tram units together to increase capacity of each departure.

vinnyfitz

I seem to remember someone telling me that the Tallaght line had more accute bends which meant the longer carriages would not work on it - in other words an inferior route for the line would have to have been chosen to accommodate them.

Is that correct?

BrianD

There is a lot of debate about the differences between the two lines. The guage on both lines are identical. The only difference between the lines is that the gap between the two tracks is wider on the Sandyford line. This would allow future upgrading to a Metro line. As much of the Tallaght line is on street it is not possible to upgrade to a metro standard. Hence the gap between the tracks is not as big.

I have heard nothing to suggest that 40m trams can not operate on the Tallaght line.

Genghis

Responding directly to P11 on Newstalk a spokesperson for Luas explains that the lines are essentially different - Tallaght is something like 50% longer. It can therefore accomodate more trams. It therefore requires shorter trams to offer the same capacity. This is all perfectly logical to me (as a customer I would rather see small trams more often than longer trams less frequently), so long as overall capacity is met. The point P11 may be making is that LUAS is not maximised on the Tallaght line, but the question is whether or not it needs to be.

Also the spokesperson said that a mixed fleet was chosen so as to maximise flexibility. Sounds good? Well it would sound good if the lines actually crossed. As they don't cross, they are not interchangeable or flexible.

P11 Comms

If the platforms are already capable of taking 40m trams on the Tallaght line, then why are the trams only 30m?

It makes no sense no matter how you look at it to have all the 40M trams on Line B and all the 30M trams on Line A. Something is just not right here - both trams types are designed to take the same tight curves. Just allocate them all to both lines for peak and off peak serivces. If they cannot be allocated to both lines for some technical reason, then why not?

The RPA have rubbished the P11 statement,and said both types were ordered for flexibility. What's flexible about the current black and white rolling stock allocation on the two lines? Answer: nothing.

Meanwhile, every Irish polticians is in the west of Ireland pointing at a completely overgrown and rotten rail line running through a field full of cows and demanding it be opened in the national interest. It is no mystery why we have the worst public transport system in Europe in this country. No mystery at all.

BrianD

I don't accept your arguement P11. Shorter trams working more frequently are more appropriate to the Red line. I would assume that you will not get as many passengers travelling terminus to terminus as you will on the Green line. 40% of the fleet consists of 40m trams. Furthermore the trams are modular so 10m extension sections can be dropped into 30m trams should it be necessary.

Capt'n Midnight

maybe it's so they won't block as much of the mad cow roundabout when they break down..

or maybe being shorter they will get through the junction faster, esp. if they have the same power units as their longer cousins

BrianD

Found this on the Connex site:

Twenty-six 30-metre trams carrying up to 188 people will serve the Red Line (Tallaght) and fourteen 40- metre trams carrying up to 264 people will operate on the Green Line (Sandyford), both with a maximum speed of 70 kph. The trams were built by Alstom and are their successful Citadis model.

With all trams operating simultaneously and at full capacity, the Red line will be able to carry more passengers at any given time than the Green line - 4,888 v 3,696. This calculation is based on simple maths and dosen't take in all the operational issues that I am sure are used in transport models.

BendiBus

And if they used 26no. 40-metre trams on the Tallaght line that would be 6864. Which is a 40% increase on the current maximum.

BrianD

... maybe they will in the future! There is nothing to suggest that they have selected the wrong type of tram for this route.

BuffyBot

Originally posted by BrianD
... maybe they will in the future! There is nothing to suggest that they have selected the wrong type of tram for this route.

Well, there is always P11's disapproval...therefore they must be the wrong type!

Winters

Yes ... of course.

The Alstom Citadis trams are made and designed in such as way as if the 30meter trams need to be extended to 40meter they can be. Why such a fuss Platform 11 about what really isint a problem at all? There would have been studies into using 30 or 40 meter cars on the Tallagh line and so a reason for going for the 30 meter must be about somewhere. I doubt they did an "eenie - meenie - miney - moe" to choose carraiges.

BrianD has also given details of how even with the 30meter cars the Tallagh line will still be able to carry more people. More frequent shorter cars is always better then less frequent longer cars. Its simple.

Bee

They go to town as an exception to the rule

Oh Dear,

Another fictional or imagined statement :rolleyes:

A huge volume of the proletariat of Tallaght need to cross the city centre to work in profitable jobs. The Luas waste of money is staggering.

Keep up the sensible pressure Platform11

West Briton

Yes, so scrap the Luas and let them take 70 mins plus to get there for the forseeable future?

I heard the same story twenty years ago. DART was a white elephant! It only served half its catchment area! The money should have been spent on tarmacing over Sandymount Strand and Booterstown! Obviously the overcrowding on DART is a figment of our imagination.

Bloody hell, our economists must have shares in CRH plc.

BrianD

Bee, I accept your point - it was a sweeping statement. However, my point is that Tallaght is a nucleus in itself with many people from the areas immediately around Tallaght travelling there rather towards the city centre for work and shopping. Thus shorter trams may be more apt as people may not transit from terminus to terminus as much as they would on the shorter Sandyford line.

Doodah7

Originally posted by BrianD
Bee, I accept your point - it was a sweeping statement. However, my point is that Tallaght is a nucleus in itself with many people from the areas immediately around Tallaght travelling there rather towards the city centre for work and shopping. Thus shorter trams may be more apt as people may not transit from terminus to terminus as much as they would on the shorter Sandyford line.

Having the misfortune to travel through Tallaght every morning to town, I would strongly suggest that you take a trip on the tallaght bypass to see how 'few' people travel towards the city centre...

and as for the evening time...

BrianD

mmmmm....the point I was making is that shorter more frequent trams are more apt to the this line which is longer than the Sandyford line. Tallaght in itself is a centre and there is a belt of industrial areas surrounding it including the Naas Rd. Proportionately you will probably find that as many people are making short hops on the route as there are traveling from end to end.