Immigration - Solutions?

Valentia

My father went to America in 1946. Just before he left he mentioned to a friend that he had better watch out for the Italians and the Poerto Ricans. "No." he was told. "Watch out for your own. They will cut your throat before anyone else."

He is now a healthy, vibrant 85 year old, with wisdom to burn. He lived at a time when the Black & Tans raided his house. He is a true Republican and cannot understand the biggotry of this supposedly friendly nation.

Ireland of the welcomes me arse. We surely have to be the most intollerant and most hypotritical race on this planet. I know many people who left for England in the 50's & 60's to claim social welfare because there was nothing for them here. I also know many today who can't read or write.

For someone to come on here and say that "they" surely know this or that is so sickeningly condescending it makes me feel sick.

People don't really matter anymore in this post Tiger era. Lucre rules.

But then I suppose some of you are young and know so much there is shag all else to learn :dunno:

Should our national motto be "TAKE, to hell with giving"?

silverside

refuse them point blank unless they can show evidence that this is the first safe country they have arrived in. most of them are chancers, a harsh approach will discourage the others.

Valentia

most of them are chancers

From what county?

Jazus surely they are not developing Irish traits even before thay come here?

arcadegame2004

"Ireland of the welcomes me arse. We surely have to be the most intollerant and most hypotritical race on this planet. I know many people who left for England in the 50's & 60's to claim social welfare because there was nothing for them here. I also know many today who can't read or write." (Valentia)

Valentia, that is different because even before Ireland and the UK were part of the EU, all Irish citizens were granted automatic British citizenship under the Ireland Act 1949. As such Irish immigrants to Britain were not going there illegally. My point is a matter of law. And anyway, the numbers of Irish people going to the UK, and especially to the US, were hardly going to become a major burden on those respective economies, given how massive they were (and still are) compared to our own economy (British GDP - $1.2 thrillion, USA GDP - $10 thrillion, Republic of Ireland GDP - $150 billion). These other countries' enormous populations and greater wealth ensure they can easily afford the cost of large-scale migration to their lands. The Republic of Ireland is a tiny economy internationally, and as the cake is far smaller there is far less to go around. Hence we see the downgrading of our hospitals as the asylum-seekers (benefit-seekers is a more suitable term) are handed things that Irish immigrants to Britain were never handed, including the taxpayer footing the entire bill for the asylum-seekers' local-authority rent payments, telephone and ESB bills, not to mention free taxi-fares and free driving-tests ( I kid you not!).

"He is now a healthy, vibrant 85 year old, with wisdom to burn. He lived at a time when the Black & Tans raided his house. He is a true Republican and cannot understand the biggotry of this supposedly friendly nation." (Valentia).

Bigotry? Don't be ridiculous. This is NOT about hatred of other races. It is about international-law (The aforementioned Dublin Convention 1981), together with the unfairness of Irish people getting treated less generously than non-EU nationals in our own country (e.g. the asylum-seekers get their LAH rent paid for them - courtesy of the Irish taxpayer - and get fastracked to the front of the LAH waiting list while Irish families have to wait YEARS), and also the fact that the Irish taxpayer is every year more and more being burdened with a taxbill to pay for this unrestricted flow of people. I repeat again Valentia, the Irish economy cannot be compared to the US economy in terms of ability to pay for all these people. The US economy is the largest in the world. My country has a tiny economy internationally. Reading your post, one could almost be forgiven for believing that the Republic of Ireland is the only country in Western Europe where someone can find a better life. The first country that the vasdt majority of asylum-seekers land in is either a Mediteranean country e.g. if you are an African, or Germany, e.g. if you are a Romanian. 66% of asylum-seekers coming to the Republic of Ireland fall into the categories of Romanian and Nigerian. You are also forgetting that at the time the vast majority of Irish people headed to the USA, they were not "asylum-seekers" in the legal sense of the word. Nor were most of them "illegal-immigrants". The USA at that time had a policy of encouraging migration, as they were seeking to populate their vast unpopulated Western regions. The Republic of Ireland is not some vast undiscovered continent that needs to take a decision like that. The first duty of our Government is to find jobs for the 150,000 Irish people that are out of work. If all the talented people leave the Third World then the consequent "brain-drain" will damage the economies of their countries, so we are actually helping them.

Now I will address Vorbis's point:

"arcadegame2004, its hardly a flood in relation to other countries economic migrants numbers. Its a bit ironic, Ireland sends millions off to other countries to work and yet whinge incessantly when a couple of thousand come here."

Vorbis, we are in fact ranked joint second in the EU in terms of numbers of asylum-seekers arriving here per head of population (joint-second with Belgium). Thousands coming to a small country to leave off the benefits-system (asylum-seekers aren't allowed to work remember) stands in stark contrast to the Irish work-motivated migration to other countries - most of which was perfectly LEGAL unlike the asylum-seeking in Ireland today. Also, in a small economy, thousands of asylum-seekers are an equivalent proportionate burden on the Irish economy as much greater numbers going to a country like the UK. Ireland is a soft-touch on asylum-seekers/benefits-seekers. Listen to that Czech woman on Morning Ireland complainin that now her country is in the EU she'll have to work! The cheek ! She effectively admitted what I and many others suspected! We have gone to 6% of our population being non-nationals in just 6 years - a statistic that it took the UK decades to arrive at since the start of their Government's mass-migration policy in the 1950's ( It is currently 7% in the UK ). In that context the term "flood" should not be seen as an exageration.

The continuation of our current laxness on the asylum-issue will only fuel racism because it treats asylum-seekers better than our own people. It plays into the hands of potential BNP/Front Nationale types in this country (who currently have absolutely tiny support among the Irish people as shown from the fact that they won not a single seat in an Irish General Election ). This is actually another reason to crack down on the illegal-immigration into Ireland.

Valentia

Hence we see the downgrading of our hospitals as the asylum-seekers (benefit-seekers is a more suitable term) are handed things that Irish immigrants to Britain were never handed, including the taxpayer footing the entire bill for the asylum-seekers' local-authority rent payments, telephone and ESB bills, not to mention free taxi-fares and free driving-tests ( I kid you not!).

You kid me not? You don't kid me mate. You obviously are so blinkered by your legal nuance that you will not let the facts get in the way of a pseudo intellectual arguement. Please, for heavens sake, get your facts right. Your arguement is shot down in your ignorance of the real world. At least make an effort to find out what the true situation for am immigrant is before you pontificate as if you know what you are talking about.

Cogent sentences do not the truth make!

FYI the Irish immigrants DID get these. Immigrants here do Not get what you say. Hardly seems worthwhile argueing with someone that takes hearsay and bigotry as fact, but hey I'll make this one exception.

arcadegame2004

"Immigrants here do Not get what you say. Hardly seems worthwhile argueing with someone that takes hearsay and bigotry as fact, but hey I'll make this one exception." (Valentia)

I am NOT expressing bigotry. Bigotry is hatred of others based on what they are. I do NOT hate other races. I simply want to see the law applied equally to everyone and Valentia, whatever you may say, you know thatyour country has tightened up the immigration-system (rightly) considerably since September 11th. Why should we be any different, especially given the Madrid attacks?

MrPudding

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
Right. Well what is certainly indicative of a trend of economic-migration is the fact that large-scale migration of non-nationals to the Republic of Ireland since independence did not start until the late-1990's which happens to coincide with the Celtic Tiger years of rapid economic growth. The fact that a trickle of people became a flood is hardly a mere coincidence. They certainly didn't come all this way simply for the weather, or to admire the scenary.

I ask you again. How can the comments of one person be taken as indicative of a trend? Just answer the question. That is all I want.

MrP

BuffyBot

Valentia, that is different because even before Ireland and the UK were part of the EU

In the 50's and 60's? Wow, they kept that quiet...

Originally posted by MrPudding
I'm sorry, I didn't really do much book learnin so help me out here. When did 1 instance of something become indicative of a trend?
MrP

You should take the context of the paragraph as a whole and not the first sentence
Well, it's not Scotty that beamed a lot of these migrants here, nobody suddenly said energise and they appeared.
They had to travel for the most part via other E.U countries to get here, that more than just the voice of one person is indicative of a trend.

Presumably that czech woman crossed borders to get here also, although Aer Lingus do fly direct to prague, but only fairly recently afaik

p

I think the way to stop immigration (if you believe it's a problem) is to stop it at the source.

That means helping countries become better off.

People stand by when genocide happens in Africa, but complain when people arrive at their doorstep asking for help. You need to stop it at the source, by helping these countries.

Removing trade barriers which prevent Third World countries from competing would be a big help.

MrPudding

Originally posted by Earthman
You should take the context of the paragraph as a whole and not the first sentence
Well, it's not Scotty that beamed a lot of these migrants here, nobody suddenly said energise and they appeared.
They had to travel for the most part via other E.U countries to get here, that more than just the voice of one person is indicative of a trend.

Presumably that czech woman crossed borders to get here also, although Aer Lingus do fly direct to prague, but only fairly recently afaik

OK here it is again:

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
Earthman your point about the irony of the asylum-seeking Czech woman being annoyed at having to work is well made and points to the fact that the vast majority of asylum-seekers coming to Ireland are really benefit tourists with no intention of working. At least now that her's and other countries are now in the EU will ensure that people wanting to have enough money to live on in this country will have to work for their pay instead of sponging off the State.

I have quoted the entire paragraph. Now correct me if I am wrong but it really seems to me that he is drawing a conclusion about all asylum-seekers from this one persons comment. How they get here or anything else is irrelevent. If you feel it is OK to draw conclusions about thousands of people from the comments of one then I feel I am perfectly within my rights to call you a racist. As I mentioned earlier I once met a couple of anti-immigration nuts who were racist. I have to say I did not meet them on boards but in a pub. Given that yourself and arcade seem to have very loose ideas about sampling and going by your own system I can call you a racist.

MrP

arcadegame2004

I am NOT a racist and I am fed up of the Irish Left labelling all their opponents on the immigration-issue as "racists etc". Are the rest of Europe racist for not allowing automatic citizenship on the basis of births to asylum-seekers? A racist is someone who hates other races, or someone who assumes some races are superior to others. I abhore such views. But the question is one of the law and of resources. The 350 million Euro paid by the Irish taxpayer to asylum-seekers is a waste of money, going to people who are already having their needs taken care of in another EU country - or would have had they chosen to apply for asylum there. So why then should we not return them to a previous EU country of entry? What is so racist about that? I do NOT hate other races. I merely feel that Ireland has enough problems at the moment without having to spend very large sums of money on a potentially unlimited cost. And I believe I speak for many.

Can you quote where I said that this one womans remarks were "indicative" of a trend? A symptom of a trend is perhaps a better way of putting it. But it is ludicrous to suggest that 10000% increase in asylum-seeking since before 1998 has nothing to do with our growing economy, or to do with the births-for-citizenship rule. Otherwise, why didn't they come here before then? There was already mass-migration of asylum-seekers to EU states then much richer than us such as Germany and the UK remember. Do you want us to end all restrictions on immigration to Ireland?

Originally posted by MrPudding
OK here it is again:

I was referring to the entire paragraph in context when I replied to you and which you quoted and replied to me. Here is what I said again...

Probably correct, but it might be fair also to say that it is indicative of a trend or a problem among a section of these migrants. A non E.U citizen looks to be showing the signs of economic migrancy rather than asylum seeking migrancy when they cross several E.U borders to come here rather than apply for the asylum at their first port of call within the E.U

The essential question in that is, why not the first port of call in the E.U,why go all the way to Ireland, the cough more or less fastest growing economy in the EU...
Unless of course many are economic migrants?

arcadegame2004

Spot on Earthman.

Ryvita

bigotry

\Big"ot*ry\, n. [Cf. F. bigoterie.] 1. The state of mind of a bigot; obstinate and unreasoning attachment of one's own belief and opinions, with narrow-minded intolerance of beliefs opposed to them.

A small question if they allowed these people to work would you have a problem?

Do you really feel that all these people are leaving their own countries to live off social welfare in Ireland because they are lazy and don't want to work in their own countries? Do you think there's a chance they may be coming from serious poverty and that they are coming to Ireland because they know they'll get a house and be supported by our state? If you were that poor and had children would you not do the same? Would you not want a better life for them if it was at all possible?

I started this thread to discuss a way to better solve the problem with Immigration policy in Ireland. The problem with Immigration policy in Ireland, is that it is creating an atmosphere of racism and bigotry.

Some posts here are talking about these people as if they are cattle that should be herded from one country to another. It IS racist. You see these people as thieving beggars come to sponge off out "tax-payers money".

Gurgle

Hi, welcome to Ireland!
Here is your RSI number, here's a voucher to stay in Mosney for 6 weeks, heres vouchers for Tesco which should feed you for 6 weeks, here's a list of places currently hiring short-term workers at low wages to get you started.

If you're not sorted out in 6 weeks, get back to us.

Next!

Too easy ?

Just exactly what kind of immigrants do we not want here ?

The ones who will do the jobs the Irish don't want, for pay we wouldn't get out of bed for ?

The highly qualified ones who would give their right arm to be allowed pick up their career in IT/medicine/pharmacy/whatever from where it was blown out from under them in their home country ?

Ireland can de nothing but benefit from an increased workforce who will do a fair days work for a fair days pay. You give them handouts & don't let them work, you're just breeding resentment on both sides.

Ryvita

People have a fear of immigrants/Assylum seekers in this country. This has to be dealt with as well. If there are criminals coming into our country then they should be dealt with in the same way that the criminals who are from this country are dealt with. We should all be put in the same system.


This is my 100th post .... Yay!

spanner

Originally posted by dathi1
I think we should have the same system as Malaysia and Singapore. Anyone entering illegally will be deported immediately and or jailed. Anyone who wishes to apply for asylum from their host country is welcome to do so. Anyone who wants to work here can apply for work permit subject to the necessary criteria.
All this talk about lag times, special rights, free legal aid, 100,000 euro deportation flights etc...would be history.

i agree totally with you, ireland needs to be in line with other western governments by promoting legal immigration. but all these benefit tourists and bogus aslyum seekers must stop. If they are risking life and limb to come from france over here its obivious they see us as a soft touch. austrialia had to do what they did out of sheer nessity.

also while we are on the topic can anyone confirm or deny these things:

1. asylum seekers get free cars or a large discount on them.
2. asylum seekers get free buggies

spanner

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
I am NOT a racist and I am fed up of the Irish Left labelling all their opponents on the immigration-issue as "racists etc". Are the rest of Europe racist for not allowing automatic citizenship on the basis of births to asylum-seekers? A racist is someone who hates other races, or someone who assumes some races are superior to others. I abhore such views. But the question is one of the law and of resources. The 350 million Euro paid by the Irish taxpayer to asylum-seekers is a waste of money, going to people who are already having their needs taken care of in another EU country - or would have had they chosen to apply for asylum there. So why then should we not return them to a previous EU country of entry? What is so racist about that? I do NOT hate other races. I merely feel that Ireland has enough problems at the moment without having to spend very large sums of money on a potentially unlimited cost. And I believe I speak for many.

Can you quote where I said that this one womans remarks were "indicative" of a trend? A symptom of a trend is perhaps a better way of putting it. But it is ludicrous to suggest that 10000% increase in asylum-seeking since before 1998 has nothing to do with our growing economy, or to do with the births-for-citizenship rule. Otherwise, why didn't they come here before then? There was already mass-migration of asylum-seekers to EU states then much richer than us such as Germany and the UK remember. Do you want us to end all restrictions on immigration to Ireland?

couldnt put it better myself, control immigration will benefit ireland and allow us to develop into a multicultural society. however the current system promotes racism

Meh

Originally posted by spanner
also while we are on the topic can anyone confirm or deny these things:
1. asylum seekers get free cars or a large discount on them.
2. asylum seekers get free buggies

You can find a full list of everything asylum seekers are entitled to here.
As you can see, there's no mention of either cars or buggies.

You may also be entitled to assistance towards clothing when you arrive and to other exceptional needs from time to time. Your CWO will advise you on this.

Buggies could come under this heading, however I'd hardly begrudge them that. Irish citizens are entitled to the exact same.

bonkey

Originally posted by Dathi1
think we should have the same system as Malaysia and Singapore.

And in response....with the above line quoted....

Originally posted by spanner
i agree totally with you, ireland needs to be in line with other western governments

Either your atlas or your political definition of "western" would seem to be suspect there spanner

jc

spanner

Originally posted by Ryvita
A small question if they allowed these people to work would you have a problem?

Do you really feel that all these people are leaving their own countries to live off social welfare in Ireland because they are lazy and don't want to work in their own countries? Do you think there's a chance they may be coming from serious poverty and that they are coming to Ireland because they know they'll get a house and be supported by our state? If you were that poor and had children would you not do the same? Would you not want a better life for them if it was at all possible?

I started this thread to discuss a way to better solve the problem with Immigration policy in Ireland. The problem with Immigration policy in Ireland, is that it is creating an atmosphere of racism and bigotry.

Some posts here are talking about these people as if they are cattle that should be herded from one country to another. It IS racist. You see these people as thieving beggars come to sponge off out "tax-payers money".

no one is denying that these people are poor and coming from serious poverty but ireland is a small nation and we cannot be expected to take in a indefinate amount of these migrants. It needs to be controlled. Fair enough stricter immigration controls and immediate deportation of illegal refugees might not be the most ideal way of doing things but dealing with the reality of the situation its the only way.

i think its a typical problem with the irish left, they critise everything but never have any viable alternative

spanner

Originally posted by Meh
You can find a full list of everything asylum seekers are entitled to here.
As you can see, there's no mention of either cars or buggies.Buggies could come under this heading, however I'd hardly begrudge them that. Irish citizens are entitled to the exact same.

thank you for that

DermotL

I've just read with interest some of the comments posted on this thread and am heartened by the defence of those fleeing persecution and poverty in search of a better life. Some brief points.

1. The ideas of "citizenship tourism," "welfare scrounging," etc are completely and utterly erroneous, based as they are on ignorance, fear and scapegoating.

Lies such as "asylum-seekers get free cars," a complete untruth, are born out of a racism that is more often than not born out of genuine ignorance. If this so-called abuse of the system was factual there would be clear statistics showing so.

It is a common right-wing approach to any form of welfare provision to claim that the system will be abused. In fact, moving away from people seeking asylum for the moment, studies have shown that the numbers who abuse the dole system, for example, are absolutely miniscule. It is difficult for an adult asylum-seeker to "sponge" on €19, yes €19 a week. Tell me, is it worth leaving your home, your hometown, your home country, your friends, your extended family and all your social connections to "sponge" in this manner?

I grant absolutely that there have been and are some instances of asylum-seekers begging, there have been other instances of asylum-seekers requesting money from CWO's for items or services not included as part of the Dept of Justice, "Equality" and Law Reform provisions. Though given that no asylum seeker is permitted to work, and a person is expected to eke out a living minus food and board on €19 a week, as fellow human beings this is surely understanable?

2. As a society we are not used to seeing those of other colours and races in our communities.

Thus the transition can lead to believing that simply because someone is of a different race and drives a car, then (a) they are an asylum-seeker (given that migrant workers and Irish citizens with multicultural backgrounds are far more prolific than asylum-seekers this is often not the case) and (b) their car was free. Yes, accommodation is provided, as is medical care, during the application process.

Asylum-seekers are entitled to free primary and secondary education (not third level)and, upon application, to child benefit. Add some food and a limited clothing allowance, and, bar the most extreme circumstances, sin sin. There's no dole, no opportunity to work and no opportunity to take vocational training. When those who decry the "benefits" those seeking asylum are in receipt of, they talk of these people coldly and statistically.

Given the very real social and economic deprivation, far more impoverished in the vast majority of cases than many of us can truly contemplate, and far more dangerous in some cases than many of us ever want to imagine, please conceive of those seeking asylum not as immigrants and foreigners, but as fellow global citizens. Almost all of these people come here for a very good reason, and that reason is almost always to seek the opportunity to work and learn and to find a new home for themselves.

3. There is no flood of asylum-seekers into Ireland.

Please see the attached file to see how the levels of those seeking asylum has actually dropped (having problems uploading it - if it doesn't appear please email to the address below to receive a copy). These are the latest statistics available on the Department of Justice, "Equality" and Law Reform website. Less than 8,000 people sought asylum here last year. More people attend Turner's Cross on a Friday night to watch Cork City play than sought asylum here in one year. In fact, there will be ten times as many people in attendance at Croke Park for the All Ireland final than sought asylum here in 2003.

Indeed, the vast, vast majority of refugees and asylum-seekers in the world today come not to Ireland, or indeed to the Western world at all - they migrate to other countries in the developing world because they are often their only means to escape torture, war, extreme poverty and a scandalous poverty that Western governments and big business have done little to alleviate.

The "flood" of those seeking refuge is a myth perpetrated by those crassly and insensitively seeking electoral office or to sell papers (that said, the Irish media have been far better behaved than their British counterparts). They play on the real fears of ordinary people who are on the receiving end of badly-funded public services and government ineptitude. When you can't afford a house and are thrown on a waiting list for months and years, it is a natural knee jerk reaction to note objection to those who are provided with accommodation outside the waiting list system. The real "scroungers" in this regard are the politicians who have been shown to benefit very nicely indeed from deals with property developers to build private houses when social housing has been heavily restricted in the era of the fabled Celtic Tiger beast.

Those seeking asylum are not to blame for the housing problems, or problems with maternity hospitals, but they are still scapegoated by the FF/FF Lite government in a referendum that takes away from all their failings on all manner of levels. Why is there no constitutional right to a home, which would force local authorities to provide housing on a constitutional basis. This is a measure proposed by most of the housing bodies (Simon, Focus Ireland, Treshold, etc) and by opposition parties, but rejected utterly by Mr E-vote himself, Martin Cullen. Instead we have a rushed referendum that will provide a platform for the racists to seek election on and for the government parties to get let off the hook. By changing the constitutional basis of citizenship from one of birth to one of bloodline we are denying the rights of children born here to become an Irish citizen, to contribute to our economy and more importantly to our society.

4. Those who support the referendum or those who advocate a draconian immigration policy are not automatically racist.

Few, if any, will make that argument. However, the issue of race is inherently intertwined with that of immigration. We are a nation who has always emigrated in our masses, but has seen little in the way of inward migration. We still see comparatively few faces of colour or hear tongues other than Gaeilge or Béarla in our streets, but the benefits of multiculturalism are already taking hold - see today's Irishwoman's Diary in the Irish Times for just a taste of how much those from different cultural bakgrounds add to our society.

Denying children equal rights to be raised as Irish citizens, as many parents wish their children to be raised in order for the kids themselves to have a better chance for the future in an unequal world, may sometimes not be racist in its intent but it isn't colour-blind in its implementation. A restrictive immigration policy where the scrutinisation of asylum-seekers cannot truly reflect the very real deprivation and, oft-times, real danger of death on deportation is also racist in its implementation. It is a small-minded, insensitive practice concentrating on some of the most socially excluded people in our community.

The upcoming referendum does not refer only to asylum-seekers. Many of those working and living in Ireland from the USA, Australia, Canada, South Africa, China and elsewhere will not be permitted to raise their children as Irish, as many of those people may wish. But the referendum campaign from McDowell and his ilk has generally focussed on asylum-seekers, again a move that plays on the very real fears, the bastard child of racial igorance, that many people have.

Please vote no in the upcoming referendum, and, if your views are strong on the issue, please email to help get involved in the Campaign Against the Racist Referendum, a broad-based group dominated by no political party, including activists involved in Residents Against Racism, Sinn Féin, Communities Against Racism, the Green Party, NASC, Labour Youth, the Socialist Workers' Party, Workers Solidarity Movement, UCD Students' Union, Trinity College Students Union and the Union of Students in Ireland. My address is
sudevelopment@ucd.ie or you can contact the campaign directly at againsttheracistreferendum@eircom.net

arcadegame2004

Meh, you're link confirms some of my suspicions:

It states of asylum-seekers "your accommodation is paid for". So the Irish taxpayer is paying the rent for them. I consider this unfair because Irish people are expected to pay the rent for local-authority housing. BTW I never mentioned buggies or cars.

It is costing the Irish taxpayer a fortune. Minister McDowell has stated that the Irish taxpayer is spending 350 million Euro on asylum-seekers.

Dept. of Justice figures indicate 1,893 pregnant women claimed asylum last year, equivalent to 58% of female asylum-seekers over the age of 16 arriving here in 2003. Indeed in some months the figure was as high as 65%. Am I the only one who finds this suspicious? I doubt it somehow.

It doesn't make sense that someone genuinely fleeing persecution would cross 6 or 7 safe EU countries to get here. Why are they doing this? They are already safe when they arrive in Italy, Spain, Greece or Germany. So why come here? They are violating the Dublin Convention 1981 in doing this. Other countries are happy to shunt the burden of paying for these people onto us. But Ireland is joint-second with Belgium in terms of numbers of asylum-seekers taken in per head of population. It inevitably places a much higher proportionate economic burden on the Irish taxpayer than is the case for most other EU states.

66% of our asylum-seekers come from the safe countries of Romania and Bulgaria. By sending them back we would not be putting their lives in danger. Certainly. they would not be in any danger sent back to a previous EU country where they had claimed asylum.

Some on this forum ask why it matters that we have a different citizenship-law to other EU states. My response is that it marks Ireland out as a more attractive destination for illegal-immigrants. Meaning that 350 million figure will greatly increase if we do nothing about it. This means less money for schools and hospitals. And I don't think thats in our interests.

To those on this forum preaching the need for skilled workers from abroad I point out we have already allowed 150,000 legal migrant workers into our country via the work-permit system to say nothing of EU migrants. It is hard to believe that out of the 4.5 unemployed of Germany and the 3.5 million unemployed of France and the other millions of EU unemployed we can't find enough skilled-workers to fill job vacancies that Irish people cannot fill.

dathi1

I've just read with interest some of the comments posted on this thread and am heartened by the defence of those fleeing persecution and poverty in search of a better life. Some brief points.

Thanks for the compliments we all agree with helping people fleeing persecution....hence I'll be voting yes to go some way towards making our farcical immigration system more controllable. A little done...but a lot more to do...to coin a phrase.

Residents Against Racism, Sinn Féin, Communities Against Racism, the Green Party, NASC, Labour Youth, the Socialist Workers' Party, Workers Solidarity Movement, UCD Students' Union, Trinity College Students Union and the Union of Students in Ireland. My address is

Open Borders, Million Euro House, D4.

DermotL

We can use statistics til everyone's wreecked in the head listening to us.

I would, however, like to reply to your stats by quoting Vincent Browne's article in the Irish Times (April 28th).

"Two weeks ago, the Department of Justice provide an "information note" on the proposed constitutional amendment. It showed that the number of pregnant women who applied for asylum in January 2003 was 282. In the following month, the number was 257 and in subsequent months the figures were 225, 180 and 147. By October 2003, the figure had dropped to 103 and in December it was 79.

So, between January and December last year the number of pregnant women seeking asylum had dropped by 73 per cent. How does this constitute an emergency? In his Dáil speech of last week he sought to bolster his case by claiming that there was the same percentage of women asylum-seekers (58 per cent) in 2003 as there had been in 2002. As though this made one bit of difference, since the numbers of pregnant asylum-seekers dropped so precipitiously.

He went on to call on anecdotal evidence, and even this he misrepresented. He claimed that in the National Maternity Hospital there had been 203 births in 2003 which had not been booked at all or had been booked within 10 days before delivery. Of these, he claimed 163 were to non-EU nationals. He said that in the Rotunda Hospital there were 269 births to non-EU nationals. But he failed to acknowledge a proportion of these almost certainly were transferred from other Irish hospitals for medical reasons - as happened in at least 79 cases of births to Irish nationals."

I would also cite the Irish Council for Civil Liberties briefing on the proposed referendum.

"• There is no statistical evidence, and certainly nothing provided by the government, that there are a substantial number of non-national women, arriving in the country at late stages of pregnancy simply to give birth. On the contrary when an analysis of recorded births to national and non-national women of child bearing age residing in Ireland is conducted, it shows that the proportion of births to both nationals and non-nationals is in line with what would be expected. (statistical source: CSO, Census 2002).

• The real underlying issue for the pressure on maternity hospitals are the cutback in the 1980s of maternity beds. Birth rates peaked in 1980 with 74,064 births. In 1990, there was a low of 53,044 births. This figure directly followed a half-decade which had seen the second highest rates of emigration in the 20th century, with 70,600 leaving in one year alone, 1988/89 – most of child-bearing age. During this drop in birth rate, maternity places and resources were cutback. Although birth rates began to rise in the 1990s, the cut back in resources has not been reversed (statistical source: CSO, Population and Vital Statistics). The proposal will not address the level of resources provided to assist in the birth of Irish children.

.....

In 1916, Patrick Pearse read the proclamation of an Irish Republic in front of the GPO. That proclamation states, “The republic guarantees … equal rights and equal opportunities to all its citizens… cherishing all the children of the nation equally..”

DermotL

I love the concept of the D4 wishy-washy liberal.

However, I'm a proud resident of Dublin 12, my father a retired postman, my mother a housewife. I get through college on a fairly measly grant and have to work part-time. I'm one of maybe fifteen people who went to college, three of whom got into university from a Leaving Cert class of 57, which originally had been a first year class of some 120. Many of those involved in the CARR are from similar backgrounds, despite the lazy stereotype.

I'm working class and proud of it, not that it bloody well matters.

bonkey

DermotL...sorry if this seems a bit harsh as a welcome from an admin. I may be reading more into what you said than you intended.....so please don't take offence if I'm way off base here. (I'm trying to ensure that we can discuss this touchy subject without things getting out of hand).

Originally posted by DermotL
Lies such as "asylum-seekers get free cars," a complete untruth,

If you are going to make comments regarding what other posters have said, I would suggest :

1) You get it right. No-one said they get free cars. Someone asked if there was any truth behind the story, and it was immediately shown not to be, with the possible exception that it could conceivably fall under the "exceptional needs" clause mentioned.

2) I'd suggest you read the rules. Implying someone here is lying is not lightly tolerated here. You will generally be expected to do one of three things if you assert someone is lying :

- retract the statement
- prove they intentionally tried to deceive (i.e. you can only be lying if you know what you are saying isn't true)
- leave

Couching your words nicely to make it seem like you're not addressing specific posts or posters won't deflect this requirement. Either make it clear that you are not talking about those here and the comments they made, or do not suggest they are lying.

are born out of a racism that is more often than not born out of genuine ignorance.

Again, given that you're responding to other's comments, I'd strongly suggest you read the rules concerning attacking other posters before you become a cropper from them.

These are the latest statistics available on the Department of Justice, "Equality" and Law Reform website.

A link (URL) to the location on the website would probably be a better idea.

Good post though...some good information in there.

jc

DermotL

None of those comments were directed at specific posters on here, but at some of the attitudes in society in general.