Immigration - Solutions?

arcadegame2004

"Em, the 1980s, I think you'll find we sent a lot of "economic migrants" to the states and to the UK. "

Yes but emigration to the UK WAS legal under the Ireland Act 1949 whererby the UK Parliament conferred British citizenship rights on all Irish citizens.

BuffyBot

We have a responsibility to share the burden.

Do we? Really?

I think we have a responsibility to those who arrive on our shores first, without passing anywhere else by. That, I have no problem with.

Ryvita

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
"Em, the 1980s, I think you'll find we sent a lot of "economic migrants" to the states and to the UK. "

Yes but emigration to the UK WAS legal under the Ireland Act 1949 whererby the UK Parliament conferred British citizenship rights on all Irish citizens.

And the states?

Ryvita

Originally posted by BuffyBot
Do we? Really?

I think we have a responsibility to those who arrive on our shores first, without passing anywhere else by. That, I have no problem with.

What is your point Buffy Bot? Do you feel that we have to many Assylum seekers in the country? Do you feel that we can't deal with the people that are here?

How is this putting you out? Would you prefer to deal with people less well off than ourselves by throwing money at them ... just as long as they don't come into our county?

I think we do have a responsibility to help these people. I think we have a responsibility to share this bruden with the rest of europe .... considering the amount of funding we have received from the EU. It wasn't that long ago when people were leaving this country in huge numbers because they couldn't find work elsewhere. 1980s! And don't tell me that we did it all legally because we didn't!

Our country has had a long history of emmigration and poverty. And it just strikes me as kind of selfish that people are so reluctant to help these people. Considering so many millions of our own population have been in the same boat over the years. We have short memories.

BuffyBot

What is your point Buffy Bot?

I think it was on another thread in this board that I once said I don't need a point.

Do you feel that we have to many Assylum seekers in the country?

There is plenty of room for people granted Asylum within Ireland.

Do you feel that we can't deal with the people that are here?

I'm sure we can, people are quite adaptable

How is this putting you out?

Do I have to be "put out" to ask questions?

Would you prefer to deal with people less well off than ourselves by throwing money at them ... just as long as they don't come into our county?

Evidently, you haven't paid a lot of attention to what I've posted. I don't have a problem with those who legitimately land on our shores as the first point of entry and claim asylum. I do find it curious that someone can skip through a few countries in the EU, then comes to Ireland and claim asylum - that strikes me as "destination shopping".

I think we do have a responsibility to help these people.

I think we have a responsibility to the legitimate claimants. I don't think we have a responsibility to those to don't feel France/Spain/Germany isn't suitable for their needs, then come here to claim asylum. If their claims are processed in their country of arrival and they are allowed to stay there, they can come to Ireland as their leisure and live/work/do what they like here. Spot the difference?

Ryvita

Originally posted by BuffyBot
Evidently, you haven't paid a lot of attention to what I've posted. I don't have a problem with those who legitimately land on our shores as the first point of entry and claim asylum. I do find it curious that someone can skip through a few countries in the EU, then comes to Ireland and claim asylum - that strikes me as "destination shopping".

"Destination shopping" ???

Maybe they have family here? Maybe they want to come to Ireland because we speak English here?

How do they have it easier in Ireland than any other EU country? We're one of the most expensive countries in Europe.

Originally posted by BuffyBot
I think we have a responsibility to the legitimate claimants. I don't think we have a responsibility to those to don't feel France/Spain/Germany isn't suitable for their needs, then come here to claim asylum. If their claims are processed in their country of arrival and they are allowed to stay there, they can come to Ireland as their leisure and live/work/do what they like here. Spot the difference?

Lucky us that we are the country which is furthest to the North East. They can't get here directly so we don't have to worry about this problem. We can pick and choose them as we like. Let Germany and Spain deal with all the illegal immigrants. Isn't Geography great! :rolleyes:

Imposter

Originally posted by Ryvita
"Destination shopping" ???

Maybe they have family here? Maybe they want to come to Ireland because we speak English here?

You seem to forget that they are seeking asylum. That means they are trying to escape persecution. Joining family and/or speaking english shouldn't be their first priorities, getting asylum should. And surely the best way to get asylum is by following the rules laid down internationally. Before you suggest they mightn't be aware of the rules enough of them seem to be aware of their entitlements when they arrive in whatever country, so I don't think it's too much of a stretch for them to know the regulations in applying for asylum.

Lucky us that we are the country which is furthest to the North East. They can't get here directly so we don't have to worry about this problem. We can pick and choose them as we like. Let Germany and Spain deal with all the illegal immigrants. Isn't Geography great! :rolleyes:

Whether geography is great or not is not the issue. There are rules and regulations that are internationally agreed upon with regard to seeking asylum and they are not being followed. Are you saying it's ok to break these rules? If so surely then it should be ok for anyone who wants to ignore whatever rules they feel like?

Ryvita

Originally posted by Imposter
Whether geography is great or not is not the issue. There are rules and regulations that are internationally agreed upon with regard to seeking asylum and they are not being followed. Are you saying it's ok to break these rules? If so surely then it should be ok for anyone who wants to ignore whatever rules they feel like?

I am not saying people should break rules. I am wondering whether or not these rukes are fair.

Ryvita

For the record:

I understand that there may be people out there abusing the system. I'd say we all agree that this shouldn't be the case and that we either need new laws or more resources if the laws are there and are not being enforced.

I know that there are people coming here taking full advantage of the situation.

It's obvious that the current system in't working as well as it could. What really worries me is that there it is a tendency for all "assylum seekers" being lumped into the same boat. I have seen Irish people being extremely rude and down right racist to people who don't look european. I was in the bus a while ago and these middle aged women beside me were commenting on some black girls on the bus saying that they should go back to Africa and stop bringing aids here and sponging off the state. It's not an isolated incident!

If people are coming here illegally and going through all of europe illegally. We should at least ask why they are leaving where they were? It's this them and us attititude that really worries me.

I completely take on board what you are saying. We can't let the system be abused. But at the same time we should also be looking into what we can do to help. What can we actually do for people in these countires: particularly the "economic migrants".

The thread was started to discuss solutions for this issue.

arcadegame2004

"How do they have it easier in Ireland than any other EU country? We're one of the most expensive countries in Europe.". (Ryvita)

That is no longer as much the case as it was. Our inflation-rate has recently fallen to 1.2% - no longer the highest in the EU. 1.2% is hardly a huge inflation-rate. Granted, it was 7% in 2000. I'd say getting accommodation whererby you pay no rent for it is incentive enough for asylum-seekers coming here.

"What really worries me is that there it is a tendency for all "assylum seekers" being lumped into the same boat.".(Ryvita)

They are all in the same boat in the sense that they all got here after arriving in another EU state. The law is the law and I say back to the first EU state you entered please or (if you country is a safe country/democracy) then go back to your own country.

As far as I am concerned our responsibilities are laid out in international-law. Therefore, I demand the implementation of the Dublin Convention. You seem to feel that we should allow the asylum-system to be used for economic-migration. I strongly reject this idea. Economic-migration should only be allowed to fill labour-shortages in our economy (where Irish workers with those skills are lacking), and that a potential economic-migrant should apply for a work-permit to come here. 150,000 have already come here in this way. They came LEGALLY. Most of our labour-shortages can now be filled with citizens of the 10 new EU member states anyway. So that will mean fewer work-permits will be allocated (as the majority of those on work-permits came from those states anyway), but that is the law.

It can take years to assess an asylum-claim. During those years they are living off te state. The cost of accommodating them should be seen as part of this. Just quoting figures for direct payments is an inaccurate gauge of the cost. I feel that the 350 million Euro spent on these people is a waste of money. Your life is not in danger in another EU state. I am fed up of these chancers who come from safe countries and then have the right to live off the State by telling us lies about them fleeing persecution in Romania. They shouldn't even be allowed to apply for asylum because Romania is a safe country. I urge the Government, as holder of the EU Presidency, to press for changes to the 1951 Refugee Convention because it is clear that the system, originally intended to allow those fleeing war, famine or persecution, is being used for economic-migration instead. You may argue that the sums paid out by our SW system to asylum-seekers in direct payments aren't that generous, but it certainly is compared to the SW systems in many countries of origin for asylum-seekers and this constitutes a pull-factor. I sympathise with people from the Third World but they are already in the West long before they arrive here. Thus, they are out of danger (though very few faced danger to begin with). That alone is reason to refuse them entry here.

Can I point out another important point here which is often overlooked. Some on the "No" side in the citizenship referendum claim that the asylum-numbers are dropping. However, this is grossly misleading, since it ignores the 4,000 or so non-EU nationals who were prevented from entering this country as a result of tougher Garda activity against illegal-immigration. Hence it could be said that 11,000 asylum-seekers may have tried to enter last year. As such a significant pull-factor to arrive in Ireland continues to exist, long after the Supreme Court Judgement last year that said that the non-national parents of Irish-born children are not necessarily always entitled to Irish citizenship. 11,000, as I recall, was the asylum-seeker figure for 2002 - an all-time high. Future government's may not be as tough on this problem and without a change in the citizenship-law in our country, the situation could conceivably return to the pre-2003 position regarding numbers entering, especially given Labour's "bleeding-heart" position on asylum-seekers.

"If people are coming here illegally and going through all of europe illegally. We should at least ask why they are leaving where they were?"(Ryvita)

Pity then that 52% of asylum-seekers refuse to attend the interview process whererby they are supposed to explain this very point. I understand though that a Romanian must find it difficult to think up an excuse!

"Maybe they have family here? Maybe they want to come to Ireland because we speak English here?" (Ryvita)

The United Kingdom speaks English they can go there. In fact 80% of them do BEFORE coming here. They should stay put there or go home/back to first EU state of entry.

"I am not saying people should break rules. I am wondering whether or not these rukes are fair."

I assume you mean "rules". I believe they are, if anything, too fair. The asylum-system exists to provide safe-haven from persecution/famine/war. It does NOT exist to provide better economic-conditions. If you allow an open-door then there will be a mass-exodus from Africa and much of the rest of the Third World. We need to deter that. The rules need to be enforced. But they are still too lax, because they are being used to economic-migration rather than the aforementioned justifiable purposes. The Refugee Convention gives asylum-seekers the benefit of the doubt to an extent that every country is supposed to allow immigrants to claim asylum. Then we spent donkeys years waiting for the official verdict that we already knew was true namely that most of them are economic-migrants and then they appeal the case umpteen times with the help of left-wing lawyers and even more taxpayers' money is poured down the drain in legal costs. Yawn.

"And the states?" (Ryvita)

Very many Irish immigrants were also allowed in legally, even in the 20th century, via the Green Card system. Like Ireland still is , the US was once lax in the enforcement of its immigration-rules, but has tightened this up since Sept.11th. I suggest we do likewise. Oh and BTW, Dubya Bush's decision to let in more Mexican migrants is an example of LEGAL migration. He is not turning a blind eye to illegal-immigration.

"Do you feel that we have to many Assylum seekers in the country? Do you feel that we can't deal with the people that are here?

How is this putting you out? Would you prefer to deal with people less well off than ourselves by throwing money at them ... just as long as they don't come into our county?

I think we do have a responsibility to help these people. I think we have a responsibility to share this bruden with the rest of europe .... considering the amount of funding we have received from the EU. " (Ryvita)

Yes, I feel we have WAY too many asylum-seekers in this country. I say this because the asylum-system is being used for economic-migration. As such, they are not fleeing persecution/famine/war. As such they are safe in their own countries. The asylum-system doesn't exist for economic-migration purposes, and in any case their gonna probably live off the state for a few years while the painfully slow process of assessing their claims is ongoing (asylum-seekers are not allowed to work)m or else they will work illegally in sweatshop conditions and pay, which undercuts Irish wages and therefore makes it harder for Irish people to get work.

I don't believe that

Ryvita

Pity then that 52% of asylum-seekers refuse to attend the interview process whererby they are supposed to explain this very point. I understand though that a Romanian must find it difficult to think up an excuse!

Why would a Romanian "find it difficult to think up an excuse"? Is this all Romanians or just some Romanians??? Have they done some sort of study?

Have you ever worked with a Romanian? Do you know any Romanians?

When you say Romanian are you talking about Romany Gypsies or Romanians?

I assume you mean "rules".

I'm so embarrassed!

AngelofFire

Common Logic: "solutions" are only needed when problems occour

Immigration is not a problem therefore it doesnt need a "solution"

AngelofFire

Originally posted by dathi1
I think we should have the same system as Malaysia and Singapore. Anyone entering illegally will be deported immediately and or jailed. .

tell me why should it be a criminal offence for someone to step on a piece of the earth other than the piece of the earth where they were born.

arcadegame2004

"Immigration is not a problem therefore it doesnt need a "solution"" (AngelofFire)

The problem is not immigration per se. The problem is illegal-immigration which costs the Irish taxpyer 350 million euro which can only get worse when you take account the pathetic 5% deportation-rate in respect of asylum-seekers. They get free houses paid for by the Irish taxpayer, skipping the housing-list and keeping Irish couples/individuals waiting donkey's years. They are not in any danger when they arrive in Germany, Italy, Spain or Greece so let them stay there.

halkar

I don't mind anyone coming to Ireland and contributing our economy and paying taxes as we do. It is obvious we need immigrants. But I hate to see our soft system getting abused by anyone. Lately I see a lot of cars driving around with foreign registration plates like LT, BG, PL whatever and what makes me wonder do these people have insurances to cover themselves and their liabilities to third parties and Irish motorists if they do? I know my insurance covers me in europe for a month or so if I take a holiday but does not cover me to be in any other country all year or more. Most of foreign cars I see are around over a year and occupants works here. Now I call this abuse, I don't care if they work or not but if many of our people can not get insurance due high cost here what right they have to drive around as they pleased. In Rome do as Roman do. They should pay their insurances and car taxes and NCT as we do or else leave the country.
Does anyone check these people when they enter the country with their cars?

AngelofFire

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
"Immigration is not a problem therefore it doesnt need a "solution"" (AngelofFire)

The problem is not immigration per se. The problem is illegal-immigration which costs the Irish taxpyer 350 million euro which can only get worse when you take account the pathetic 5% deportation-rate in respect of asylum-seekers. They get free houses paid for by the Irish taxpayer, skipping the housing-list and keeping Irish couples/individuals waiting donkey's years. They are not in any danger when they arrive in Germany, Italy, Spain or Greece so let them stay there.

as i said on another thread 350 million is not an awful lot. its 1% of the exchequer fund. if you want irish people to get housing. petition your government to introduce the right to housing into the consititution. again people are attacking assylum seekers yet they should be attacking the negligence of their own government.

Ryvita

Originally posted by AngelofFire
Common Logic: "solutions" are only needed when problems occour

Immigration is not a problem therefore it doesnt need a "solution"

My bad .... it wasn't intended to sound that way.