Number of road deaths up 15% so far this year

Villain

From Unison .ie
"The number of people killed in road accidents so far this year is 15% higher than in the same period last year, according to figures released today by the National Safety Council. The council said 131 people had died on Ireland's roads so far this year, compared to 114 between January 1st and May 7th, 2003. Six of this year's fatalities occurred in the past seven days."

Looks like the penalty points system is not having much of an effect anymore.

What else do people think can be done to curtail this carnage??

I know the speed limits on so called "back roads" will be reduced to 50mph later this year but what else do you think will help save lives?

silverside

Education, Engineering, Enforcement.

People have realised that the gardai don't have the manpower to enforce the current penalty points system and so have started speeding again.

The improvements to national roads will have some effect. However significant reductions will only come about through a greatly expanded enforcement programme, whether by the Gardai as currently constituted, a separate Garda Traffic corps, or privatised/speed cameras.

I would propose a dedicated unit of 2000 gardai, trained equipped and mandated to police the crazy overtaking maneuvers that one sees every day on our main roads, together with a huge programme of installing speed cameras.

Bee

Good post silverside but its not speed cameras that we need. Its enforcement of the law coupled with the appropriate siting of speed cameras. You only have to look at the way the Gardai mis use speed traps to clock up results that look good on paper rather than use their powers at accident black spots.

Hope we don't make the blunder that the UK did with speed cameras being used as a revenue gathering system for local authorities etc. Of course Sheamo Brennan wouldn't think that eh?

Another major problem is people driving at inappropriate speeds for the roads they are on coupled with seriously dangerous driver ability and lousy traffic engineering.

The current speed limits are off the wall! They are based on totally outdated priniciples . There should be an independent audit and limits removed or adjusted if they do not comply with that guidance.

Speed cameras should not be located where it is safe to exceed speed limits e.g. overtaking lanes on motorways.

Cameras should only be permitted at accident black spots where at least 85 per cent of drivers observe the speed limit, indicating that it is potentially unsafe to exceed it. Speed limit enforcement by means other than cameras should be targeted in the same way. Consideration should be given to the increased use of interactive signs warning drivers of the speed limit, as an alternative to police enforcement.

The Gardai should have a dedicated traffic corps with much more emphasis given to careless driving within speed limits

The current Speed limit enforcement does not address this with speed traps or cameras.


The use of variable speed limits should be made easier, so that limits could be reduced during periods when slower speeds are appropriate, e.g. outside schools at arrival and dispersal times, but raised at other times.

Police traffic patrols should be given clear guidelines about enforcing speed limits in circumstances where danger is actually being caused, taking into account the prevailing conditions and the manner in which a vehicle is being driven. In the longer term, consideration should be given to the possibility of making some speed limits advisory rather than mandatory.

There has to be a re think on speed limits The onus should be on a driver involved in an accident while exceeding the advisory limit to show that his speed was not excessive for the conditions; conversely, if he was within the limit, it would be up to the Gardai to show that he was travelling too fast. This would be a radical change in thinking, but it would bring an end to the currently failed enforcement for its own sake that is making a mockery of the penalty points system

Bee

silverside

Cameras should only be permitted at accident black spots where at least 85 per cent of drivers observe the speed limit, indicating that it is potentially unsafe to exceed it

So if lots of people speed, then it is OK? I totally disagree.

You may think that speed limits are set at the wrong level, but they are being changed soon with metrication. It is not up to the individual to decide what a safe limit is.

The experience of the first few months of penalty points (which were only for speeding at the time) showed that if there is strict enforcement of speed limits, this will reduce accident numbers.

I drive in the UK and there, people obey speed limits nearly all of the time. In Ireland they don't. English people tend to obey rules more in general, but speed cameras I think are also a big part of it.

Driving at 70 instead of 60, of 50 instead of 40, may be safe some of the time. However even if you are a good driver, it gives less time to react to unexpected situations. However if people get into the habit of obeying limits all of the time, lives will be saved. Once you get used to it, and realise that all you could make up by speeding is a few minutes on a journey, it's easier to just stick to the limit instead of stressing yourself looking for overtaking/speeding opportunities.

Bee

So if lots of people speed, then it is OK? I totally disagree

Apologies for giving that impression.

I am talking about appropriate speed. I prefer the German system of strict enforcement on high speed autobahns resulting in some of the lowest fatality rates in Europe.

It is not up to the individual to decide what a safe limit is

However if people get into the habit of obeying limits all of the time, lives will be saved

Scientific research has shown that the majority of drivers settle down to 70 to 80 mph on the autobahns despite the capability speeding at over 100mph.


When it is left to the individual on safe roadways they will drive at appropriate and safe speed with little intervention.

The muppet drivers that drive dangerously will not drive safer by having their picture taken. As you are aware rich folk can afford to pay off traffic fines and have also paid off people to take the rap when the fine comes through to avoid gaining points.

The only answer is for them to be taken to task by a professional traffic corps. The joke enforcement by the Gardai with inappropriate speed traps has led to a failure of the penalty points system with the result in an increase in fatalities.

Unfortunately we have in Ireland a staggering level of incompetence in driving ability and more importent a failure with the professionalism of the traffic engineers in nearly all areas of road engineering for safety until this is resolved more deaths will ensue.


Bee

Duckjob

People have realised that the gardai don't have the manpower to enforce the current penalty points system and so have started speeding again.

This is only part of the story. The initial slowdown of drivers was mainly due to fear of being caught. but I believe that if the government and the gardai had made a real effort to identify and target the real blackspot areas around the country:
a) the initial drop in fatalities would have been more dramatic than it was
b) the system would have much more support than it currently has now
and c) the fatalities would not have gone higher than ever.


It is a well proven fact that dual carraigeways and motorways are statistically much safer than bi-directional roads such as those that still exist on many on our major routes, yet the gardai are seen everyday sitting on dual carraigeway/motorway sections of the N4/N3/N1, nabbing 'irresponsible maniacs' exceeding the speed limit by 5mph. In the case of the N4, this means doing 45 in an 40mph zone on a 3-4 lane carraigeway! When was the last time you heard of a fatal accident outside Liffey Valley? No doubt at €80 a pop, this is great for the government coffers, but you can still drive from Dublin to Limerick or Cork, witness the same insane overtaking that was always there, and not see a single garda check along the way.

To make a lasting impact on road death count requires support from the side of the motorist as well as the enforcement bodies. The government has failed in this regard because they cynically took the 'highest revenue' option over the 'most effective implementation' option, and this has now come back to bite them in the ass.

a_ominous

Originally posted by Bee
Apologies for giving that impression.

I am talking about appropriate speed. I prefer the German system of strict enforcement on high speed autobahns resulting in some of the lowest fatality rates in Europe.

Scientific research has shown that the majority of drivers settle down to 70 to 80 mph on the autobahns despite the capability speeding at over 100mph.

When it is left to the individual on safe roadways they will drive at appropriate and safe speed with little intervention.

...
Bee

The reason most German drivers settle at speeds of 70-80 mph is that they get proper driver training there. They have to do a certain number of hours (10-20 AFAIK) before getting a driver permit which allows them to drive say a family car. Same applies in France. We have dumba$$ situations where where a person can apply for a provisional licence, not drive for 2 years and then go out on the road alone with zero experience.
The best way to improve things is through driver education. Laws are not a great lot of use as the laws aren't enforced. And the 2000 gardai mentioned in this thread are for general crime prevention. There are about 500 cops who mostly do traffic duties but this ain't enough. You have ridiculous situations where, due to scheduling, traffic cops are on their evening tea break during the hometime rush-hour!
There was a story in the Irish Times motor section last week here by Killian Doyle. He had interviewed a woman who is trying to set up a large driving school. Her target market is young drivers. She reckons that by age 19-20, it is too late. Not that you can't pick up good habits, but it's much easier to train good habits earlier. Anyhow she cannot get any government backing, not sponsorship and is now trying to get a tax break at least. It was something I had considered as a business venture, but with the insurance, you'd be crucified.

Although at over a million euro per fatality (I 've seen this figure quoted often, no source at the moment) surely it would be a logical step to provide some sort of system like this??? Would this cost 350 million euro a year. No. It's that simple. But it requires action by the State or the insurance companies.

It's due to lack of decent training that we have a 50% failure rate at the test and this has a subsequent knock-on effect on the waiting times, which have crept back up to nealy a year again.

I'd like to see a set of lessons for all transition year kids in school. Get them out on bicycles initially on a controlled circuit. Show them how vulnerable they are, even in a car. If you're in a car hitting something at 60mph, you won't be running away. You'll be lucky to come out of it alive and probably have a lifetime of problems as a consequence. I do know this; I've a good friend who's suffering 10 years after her accident.

@duckjob, I agree with you about the roads. Dualers and motorways are statistically safer. If the limits are not set to a reasonable level on these roads, then I don't want my fricking tax money wasted on them! What is the point of building a road with limited access and then keeping the limit at 40 mph??? That's stoopid. And people get frustrated and are will then do silly things under the influence of the red mist.

Victor

Originally posted by a_ominous
@duckjob, I agree with you about the roads. Dualers and motorways are statistically safer.

Lies, damn lies and statistics. They safer per journey. However they have many times more people making that journey. Overall there would be more accidents per km on a motorway than a "back road".

Originally posted by a_ominous
What is the point of building a road with limited access and then keeping the limit at 40 mph???

If you are talking about the N4 at Liffey Valley it is no such thing. There are bus stops, traffic lights, cross over points in the median ....