Should McCabe killers be release as part of IRA disbandment deal?

Originally posted by Tommy Vercetti
They and their neighbours have given up phoning the Gardai because nothing is ever done about it. This example is probably happening in many other parts of Ireland, north and south. In this type of climate, people are going to either take the law into their own hands themselves or look to other people who will, because the law has failed them.

I'd hazzard a guess and say a lot of that is down to resources.
I'd presume for instance that the same people would report burgalry or an assault or other crimes to the Gardaí but again depending on resources or work pressure, something may or may not come of it

The Brigadier

The McCabe murderers being released is an example of the law failing the people of Ireland.

Evil murdering scum like that should be left to rot in jail until they die.

Tommy Vercetti

Originally posted by Earthman
I'd hazzard a guess and say a lot of that is down to resources.
I'd presume for instance that the same people would report burgalry or an assault or other crimes to the Gardaí but again depending on resources or work pressure, something may or may not come of it

I agree that lack of resources are the problem of course and I wasn't implying that the Gardai aren't bothered, but that's little use if your kid gets run over.

Tommy Vercetti

Originally posted by The Brigadier
The McCabe murderers being released is an example of the law failing the people of Ireland.

The people of Ireland voted for the GFA.

I'm sure the victims of British Army murderers would feel equal anger if those killers had been brought to justice instead of being promoted.

Cork

Originally posted by Tommy Vercetti
No, but they have criticised the government for failing to honour their election promise of 2,000 extra gardai. Maybe they are looking at a bigger picture here?

Maybe if SF could get the IRA to disband - Garda resources could be deployed elsewhere.

And If SF could get the IRA to stop the IRAs criminal racketeering - our government would have additional revenue for better health , education and social welfare.

I take if from your answer, Tommy Vercetti, that SF has not offered any criticism of IRA punishment beatings or IRA kangaroo Courts?

SF does not like getting into the politics of condenmation about the IRA. If it only did not like getting into the politics of condenmation about other issues.

No, but they have criticised the government for failing to honour their election promise of 2,000 extra gardai. Maybe they are looking at a bigger picture here?

The bigger picture is that the IRA murdered Gerry McCabe on the streets of Adare. An organisation that SF has links to. Yet SF "have criticised the government for failing to honour their election promise of 2,000 extra gardai".

The Brigadier

Originally posted by Cork
Maybe if SF could get the IRA to disband - Garda resources could be deployed elsewhere.

Ah, but as all the Sinn Fein supporters like to remind us there is no connection between Sinn Fein and the murdering scum in the IRA.

You should really have realised that by now Cork....:rolleyes:

BuffyBot

In this type of climate, people are going to either take the law into their own hands themselves or look to other people who will

It still does not entitle them to do so.

Villain

Originally posted by The Brigadier
Ah, but as all the Sinn Fein supporters like to remind us there is no connection between Sinn Fein and the murdering scum in the IRA.

You should really have realised that by now Cork....:rolleyes:

Which IRA are you talking about here James?

The IRA which Sinn Fein has links with has been on a ceasefire now for many years, and dont think anyone here has denied their links. If there were no links there would be no peace process.

I think you need to clarify your point. :rolleyes:

Villain

Originally posted by Cork
The government has now been in communication with both the McCabe family and GRA. They now seem to be in broad agreement.

I guess that link I looked for doesn't excist??

I'm sorry Cork but you always avoid the questions, where are you getting the information from that the Government, GRA and the McCabe are all in broad agreement??

People here will bash Sinn Fein if they try to negoiate a deal that brings an end to the IRA, while at the same time bashing them for not getting the IRA to end all activitys.

Can I ask you people you people that have being bashing SF here now for months, what exactly you want SF to do??

As I have said they dont have a magic wand that they can wave and suddenly the IRA will disappear.

A peace DEAL has to be brokered, now I dont support much of what FF do but I think in this case they are correct in negotiating such a deal.

I dont support the McCabe killers I condemn what they did but if there release can help bring peace then I think it should be done.

The Brigadier has come into the thread saying

The McCabe murderers being released is an example of the law failing the people of Ireland.

Evil murdering scum like that should be left to rot in jail until they die

and I'm sure there are many others who hold the same opinion. However people need to understand the complexity of the situation, and they need to see why the Elected Government of this land are willing to release these killers early.

Opinons of the sort above will never help bring about a long lasting peace to this Island.

Mighty_Mouse

I really can't believe this:

There is a police force in NI, which is heavily regulated.

:eek:
For those that are interested in reading a little about the republican view on policing:
http://sinnfein.ie/peace/policing/1

(waste of time making points in here as they wont be read!)

Originally posted by Mighty_Mouse

I've grown a little tired of the "murderers", repetitive, bullet point exclamations/arguments recited in this thread so I haven't been posting much. But I really couldn't believe this:

quote:There is a police force in NI, which is heavily regulated.



Here are a few points that need to be remembered:
- PSNI remains unrepresentative

The PSNI remains unrepresentative of the community it polices and is unacceptable to nationalists. The British government has yet to produce a coherent strategy for ensuring representation of nationalists and republicans.

- Military policing and repressive legislation continues

Plastic bullets need to be withdrawn from use. They are lethal weapons which have been used indiscriminately and which have killed children.

- Repressive legislation continues to be used by the PSNI, as it was by the RUC

PSNI stations and vehicles have not been demilitarised. They still patrol from heavily armed, military fortresses in nationalist areas.

- Human Rights Abusers transferred en masse to PSNI

Key positions in the PSNI are held by human rights abusers involved in collusion with loyalist paramilitaries to kill citizens.

- Ongoing interference and opposition to inquiries and inquests

The PSNI Chief Constable and senior members of the Policing Board - Des Rea, Chair, and Denis Bradley, Deputy Chair - are opposed to inquiries, which would see human rights abusers exposed.

The PSNI Chief Constable continues to withhold vital inquest evidence on controversial killings involving British state forces - this interference has led to the inquest of Roseann Mallon and nine other people from Tyrone being aborted on more than 12 occasions, most recently due to interference by Huge Orde

- Special Branch remain intact and are destabilizing peace process

The Special Branch has transferred unhindered from the RUC into the PSNI. These political policing detectives are a de facto cartel inside the PSNI

Political destabilisation at key points in the peace process, has been effected by the police Special Branch, which has been at the centre of politically damaging leaks and briefings to the media or actions by PSNI

The families of a number of Protestants killed recently by loyalist paramilitaries have publicly stated that Special Branch agents were involved in the killings and have been given immunity.

- DPP failing to act

The Director of Public Prosecutions (DPP), a branch of the failed status quo in policing and justice, continues to prevent prosecutions against human rights abusers in the PSNI

The DPP and Special Branch continue to interfere with forensic evidence and the activities of the Forensic Science Agency, particularly in politically motivated prosecutions

- Policing Board not holding PSNI to account

The Policing Board has failed to use its own powers to instigate an inquiry. The Policing Board is failing to fulfil its primary function - to hold members of the PSNI fully to account
(http://www.politics.ie/modules.php?...rticle&sid=3976)

In all the things you list, many of which are highly debateable...
You completely miss my point, so I'll quote it for you again...

Originally posted by Earthman
After all the very same people might argue that the crimes of IRA people should be put in the past...
Why not apply the same logic to the police force in NI, especially given the strict regulation it's under and the 50:50 recruitment bias...

You are asking for jam on both sides of your bread,you have a perfect chance to sort out the religous make up of the PSNI, heck they are even accepting recruits from the South...


By the way I did read all of the reply you deleted as it's quoted above

oscarBravo

Originally posted by irish1
I dont support the McCabe killers I condemn what they did but if there release can help bring peace then I think it should be done.

That simple, yeah?

It doesn't say a lot to me about SF credibility if their price for peace is the early release of garda-killing bank robbers. What's so special about these criminals, anyway?

In fact, let's turn your point around completely: if the continuing incarceration of these bank robbers is an obstacle to the achievement of a lasting peace, then just how committed are SF and the IRA to peace in the first place?

The Brigadier

They were members of the IRA and as such they are political prisoners.....

There is no reason to release these prisoners, the fact that Sinn Fein are campaigning for it shows how little respect they have for the Irish people.

Villain

Originally posted by oscarBravo
That simple, yeah?

It doesn't say a lot to me about SF credibility if their price for peace is the early release of garda-killing bank robbers. What's so special about these criminals, anyway?

In fact, let's turn your point around completely: if the continuing incarceration of these bank robbers is an obstacle to the achievement of a lasting peace, then just how committed are SF and the IRA to peace in the first place?

Well they believe that these men are entitled to early release under the GFA, which I and the majority of citizens here voted for, they are looking for the agreement to be implemented which means the release the of these killers. I can understand the moral reasons why people want these men to stay in jail, but you have to look at them in the same context as every other prisioner. These men were convicted of manslaughter and were active members of the IRA so they are entitled to early release, I don't remember seeing threads here for all the other killers that were released early under the GFA. As I said I can see why people are outraged by this agreement to release them but this wasn't just something SF done on their own the Irish goverment agreed to it, if your going to vent your anger at this situation you need to include FF and the PD's. If someone sought for a increase of 10% in income tax and it was passed by the government who would you blaim??

Villain

Originally posted by The Brigadier
They were members of the IRA and as such they are political prisoners.....

There is no reason to release these prisoners, the fact that Sinn Fein are campaigning for it shows how little respect they have for the Irish people.

I think I have answered this in my above post, if you want me to explain my opinion further I will be only too happy to.

Trojan

Convicted, Garda-killing, bank robbers should not be released early on the grounds of their membership of any organisation.

I'm disgusted, although unsurprised, by SFs position, and even more so by FFs maneuvering. My votes will not be going to either party.

The Brigadier

If I join SF can I go around committing violent crimes, safe in the knowledge I will be released early??

pdh

Don’t know what all the fuss is about. The guys is Castlerea have done nearly 7 years and are due for release in the next 18 months. As for the IRA disbanding, currently they have no military capacity, all they are now is a party militia for PSF and running sidelines for personal gain.

In fact the situation reminds me of the Stickies, remember them ??? No they just drifted into the mists of time over a 20 year period and now we have Pat Rabbitt as the leader of the coalition of the Caring with Frank Ross looking after thing in Europe.

Villain

Originally posted by The Brigadier
If I join SF can I go around committing violent crimes, safe in the knowledge I will be released early??

Do you actually think before posting??

You obviously have no understanding of the issues here, and these men were not members of SF, they were members of the IRA at a time when the IRA were not on a ceasfire.:rolleyes:

Actually Reefbreak speaking of Ceasefire, did you find the info that doesn't excist or are you going to retract your statement.:D

SantaHoe

Originally posted by Trojan
Convicted, Garda-killing, bank robbers should not be released early on the grounds of their membership of any organisation.

I'm disgusted, although unsurprised, by SFs position, and even more so by FFs maneuvering. My votes will not be going to either party.

That just about sums it up for me.

The Brigadier

I'll be voting Fine Gael this year.

sleepwalker

I'm genuinely surprised at the level of support there seems to be for releasing these men.

The way I see it, it's quite simple: they are bank robbers. In the course of committing a robbery, they shot a policeman. Are we seriously to accept that just because they are also members of the IRA, that these bank robbers should get early release?

Surely the idea of prisoner releases as part of the peace process is a tactic acceptance of the concept of "political prisoners" (which is a whole 'nother debate) - in what sense are bank robbers political prisoners?

badabing i agree with this post 100%

swiss

I have a confession to make.

This is one of those occasions where I think my political opinions is making me biased against post content. The comment below is an example of this bias on my behalf.

Originally posted by The Brigadier:

If I join SF can I go around committing violent crimes, safe in the knowledge I will be released early??

You see, I despise what the murderers of Gerry McCabe have done (and have no doubt about it - they are murderers). The idea that such cold blooded murderers could have early release, especially when witness intimidation already slashed their sentence to an unacceptably short time offends my sense of justice, honor and decency. They represent the ugly side to paramilitarism, of the IRA and of their SF buddies.

However, in spite of all this, and the contempt I have for SF when they want such vermin to walk free, this does not warrant this kind of comment. The IRA was technically not*on ceasefire during this operation - having broken that ceasefire on the 9th of February of that year. Unless you have any furthur evidence to suggest that people join SF just so they can engage in criminality, I can only see that comment as inflammatory. Don't post unless you have something positive to contribute.

This is of course a contentious discussion, and it would be ridiculous to assume that people are going to reach a consensus. My own opinion is as follows: despite the crimes they have committed, the killers of Det. Garda Gerry McCabe should be freed. This is not because it is the moral or ethical thing to do, but because no matter how unappealing doing something like this should make us feel, reneging on one part of the GFA makes us into hypocrites when we accuse northern parties of doing the same thing.

However, once they are freed (and I believe they will be) I think it would be appropriate that people remembered clearly who we let free and the price we paid for our peace. I also think it would be appropriate to remember that the very people who campaigned for them to go free are the same people who would have us vote for them.

* Edited to include a not. It was a grammatical mistake. My bad.

The Brigadier

Swiss I must disagree with you on that.

I feel the comment I made was a valid one.

The ONLY reason the killers of Jerry McCabe are bei9ng considered for early release is for political reasons.

You may consider it to be inflammatory, but certainly no more so than the vile act itself.

If you want to take the angle of the IRA being on ceasefire at the time of the murder, then there is NO REASON to even consider the early release of these killers.

These vermin are being considered for early release because of their membership of certain bodies. Where do you draw the line?

I stand by my comments. However if you object that strongly to them I will leave the topic.

Mighty_Mouse

By the way I did read all of the reply you deleted as it's quoted above

The reason I deleted it was because I posted in a hurry and I hate using secondary sourced comments as my own. I hit submit by accident and changed my post for the above reason.

I've a couple of points to make. As a republican, I would love to have a civl debate on the politics of the North. But the repetitive nature of "scum", "murderers", "vile", "rodents" , "Sinn Fein/IRA etc etc makes it a frustrating to bear over the coarse of a prolonged discussion. (akin to the Sunday Worlds sensitive covering of the matter this weekend!)

As an anti-sinn fein poster, Swiss is right here. I really don't have a problem with different political beliefs but the simple facts of the matter here is the importance of the GFA to the Irish government.

Also I dont see the big deal either with the amount of time these men have already served.

especially given the strict regulation

ps on the policing issue, refresh an old thread or start a new one. No matter how much you argue this point, there is a police force in NI without the trust of a significant porportion of the community. (with good reason too). The crux of the SF argument is why not create a police force for ALL communities? Its such a fair point that its difficult to argue against by the way.

Villain

Originally posted by swiss
The IRA was technically on ceasefire during this operation - having broken that ceasefire on the 9th of February

Sorry Swiss but Mr McCabe was killed in June 1996 so they were not on a ceasefire at the time.

The Brigadier stands by his comment

If I join SF can I go around committing violent crimes, safe in the knowledge I will be released early??

Seriously come on :rolleyes:

The Brigadier

Originally posted by Mighty_Mouse
The crux of the SF argument is why not create a police force for ALL communities? Its such a fair point that its difficult to argue against by the way.

There is a police force for all communities in Northern Ireland. The RUC is no more.

The PSNI is actively tryin to recruit catholics into it's ranks. It is Sinn Fein discouraging this.....

What do you suggest is done??

I think that is a fair point....now argue it

Originally posted by Mighty_Mouse

ps on the policing issue, refresh an old thread or start a new one. No matter how much you argue this point, there is a police force in NI without the trust of a significant porportion of the community. (with good reason too). The crux of the SF argument is why not create a police force for ALL communities? Its such a fair point that its difficult to argue against by the way.

But you see, I don't understand how there could be a problem here...
You say that a significant number of the population don't trust them,and I'd agree with you to an extent...
But a huge proportion of the population of NI don't trust Sinn Féin either, yet they acquiessed in letting them into government by voting for the GFA and for pro agreement unionist parties.
Most Unionists associate SF with the IRA, and thats irespective of how much SF say otherwise and therefore they have to put bygones into bygones to accept them there again.
Shouldn't the same be true with the police for Republicans, especially with the 50:50 recruitment thing.

Villain

Originally posted by The Brigadier
There is a police force for all communities in Northern Ireland. The RUC is no more.

The PSNI is actively tryin to recruit catholics into it's ranks. It is Sinn Fein discouraging this.....

What do you suggest is done??

I think that is a fair point....now argue it

Theres no point in having loads of Nationlist Indians if all the Cheifs are Unionists!

Cork

Originally posted by irish1
Which IRA are you talking about here James?

The IRA which Sinn Fein has links with has been on a ceasefire now for many years, and dont think anyone here has denied their links. If there were no links there would be no peace process.

I think you need to clarify your point. :rolleyes:

If there was no IRA - there would be no need for a Peace Process.

Theres no point in having loads of Nationlist Indians if all the Cheifs are Unionists!

But it is better to have the IRA beating the pulp out of people with baseball bats??

So, What isSF's main objection for not taking up its seats on the policing board or is it just posturing?

irish1, you state that SF and the IRA have "links"?

Should SF then not be held accountable on a political level for actions of the IRA?