Should McCabe killers be release as part of IRA disbandment deal?

bonkey · 17-05-2004 8:40pm

Originally posted by Mighty_Mouse
ps on the policing issue, refresh an old thread or start a new one.

I agree. If people want to discuss this, please do so in a seperate thread. Otherwise...let it drop and accept that both "sides" in this discussion have differing views about it.

jc

Villain · 17-05-2004 9:06pm

Originally posted by Cork
If there was no IRA - there would be no need for a Peace Process.

LOL
If the Plantation of Ulster never took place ..... Come on Cork we can argue that one a hundred different ways.

Originally posted by Cork
But it is better to have the IRA beating the pulp out of people with baseball bats??

So, What isSF's main objection for not taking up its seats on the policing board or is it just posturing?

irish1, you state that SF and the IRA have "links"?

Should SF then not be held accountable on a political level for actions of the IRA?

Have a quick read here http://www.sinnfein.ie/gaelic/news/detail/4325
It states what SF want done mainly

Well I think they are to a certain extent, I don't think they should be held any more accountable because they not the same, they have links but there not the 1 group.

Cork · 17-05-2004 9:53pm

But we have a "policital party" calling for the early release of those who murdered a member of the Gardai.

Does that make you uneasy?

I find it unacceptable.

I think the editorial in yesterdays Tribune was very apt. I think that the stalemate in NI exists because of hardline extremist political partys. People voted for these because they perceived moderate political partys as being "weak" and as pushovers.

Why is the release of these men now being used as a bargaining chip in a game to rid this country of the criminal gang that the IRA now is?

What purpose does the IRA serve? What is it doing with all the funds it gets from its various rackets?

The IRA are making much money from their various racketeering - What has the IRA done to make amends to the McCabe family?

oscarBravo · 17-05-2004 10:01pm

Originally posted by swiss
My own opinion is as follows: despite the crimes they have committed, the killers of Det. Garda Gerry McCabe should be freed. This is not because it is the moral or ethical thing to do, but because no matter how unappealing doing something like this should make us feel, reneging on one part of the GFA makes us into hypocrites when we accuse northern parties of doing the same thing.

Swiss, my recollection is that when I was making up my mind whether or not to vote for the GFA, it was made unequivocally clear that these men were not included under its terms. I can see - with some difficulty - why we should arrive at an agreement with people who style themselves "freedom fighters" but I'm still bewildered as to why murdering bank robbers should be accommodated any further than they already have been.

I also think it would be appropriate to remember that the very people who campaigned for them to go free are the same people who would have us vote for them.

Believe me, this thought will never be far from my mind over the coming weeks.

Cork · 17-05-2004 10:10pm

Originally posted by oscarBravo
Swiss, my recollection is that when I was making up my mind whether or not to vote for the GFA, it was made unequivocally clear that these men were not included under its terms.

I clearly remember similar assurances.

Villain · 17-05-2004 10:11pm

I couldn't be bothered cork going over the same points again and again, so read this reply carefully and dont ask me any of these questions again.

Originally posted by Cork
But we have a "policital party" calling for the early release of those who murdered a member of the Gardai.

Does that make you uneasy?

To be honest it does to an extent, but if its part of a deal that finally ends all IRA activity I think its worth it, as I have said there have been many other killers released under this program. I think it has been handled very badly by the government which has heaped more uneccessary pain onto the McCabe family.

Originally posted by Cork

Why is the release of these men now being used as a bargaining chip in a game to rid this country of the criminal gang that the IRA now is?

Because they want the parts of the GFA that favour them implemented before they totally end and have nothing to bargain with.

Originally posted by Cork
What purpose does the IRA serve? What is it doing with all the funds it gets from its various rackets?

What rackets are these, please provide evidence and links, I'd imagine they have saved any money they have, but I really wouldn't know.

Originally posted by Cork

The IRA are making much money from their various racketeering - What has the IRA done to make amends to the McCabe family?

To my knowledge nothing, I think an apology would be appropiate.

Now Cork I have answered all your questions so :

Please supply a link where it shows that the Government, the GRA and the McCAbe Family are in broad aggement?

The Brigadier · 17-05-2004 10:21pm

Originally posted by Cork

What purpose does the IRA serve? What is it doing with all the funds it gets from its various rackets?

I have friends who pay protection to the IRA for restarunts and bars they have in Dublin city centre.

I in fact have a friend who owns a group of pubs in Dublin, some restaraunts and a Nightclub who pays protection money to the provisional IRA every month.

Why is this?? What does it do with this money?

Oh, BTW my friend is an Irish Catholic....

BuffyBot · 17-05-2004 10:25pm

its part of a deal that finally ends all IRA activity

Do you honestly think it will?

The Brigadier · 17-05-2004 10:28pm

No it won;t

The IRA engage in Drug Dealing and protection.

If Sinn Fein is connected to the IRA, which there supporters here have conceeded, why would they want this to end??

While not every member of the IRA is a scum sucking evil criminal. Some are....why do we need to release those convicted back into society...

Villain · 18-05-2004 11:42am

Originally posted by The Brigadier

The IRA engage in Drug Dealing and protection.

If Sinn Fein is connected to the IRA, which there supporters here have conceeded, why would they want this to end??

While not every member of the IRA is a scum sucking evil criminal. Some are....why do we need to release those convicted back into society...

OK Brigadier, lets have some names so, lets name these people who are members of the IRA and are engaging in Drug Dealing and Protection.

I think you might find the INLA are more responisble for the protection.

Villain · 18-05-2004 11:57am

Did anyone else here listen to Tonight with Vincent Browne on Radio 1 last night??

He dedicated half of his show to the McCabe issue.

He raised some interesting points about other people who were released under the GFA including people who were convincted after the agreement and still were released.

One example he gave was that of James Morgan a 16 year old Catholic who was murdered in the most violent way.

"Morgan was murdered because he was a Catholic. He was struck several times on the head with a hammer and then his body was doused with petrol and set alight, before being dumped in a water-filled hole."

Coopey the man convicted of his murder was released under the terms of the Good Friday Agreement after serving only 1 year of his sentence!!!

Read the article and you will see lots more examples, I dont here anyone here complaining about the release of these men!!!

Article:http://www.thepost.ie/web/Sitemap/1.9did-713318916-pageUrl--2FThe-Newspaper-2FSundays-Paper-2FComment-and-Analysis.asp

He also states that the Supreme Court was incorrect on a matter of fact that they gave in their Judgement in relation to the Prisioners in the McCabe Killing:

The Supreme Court was factually wrong on the central point of its judgment on January 29 last on an application by the killers of Jerry McCabe.

It falsely assumed that they were differentiated from those prisoners released under the Good Friday Agreement in that they alone were convicted after the signing of the agreement. Several persons convicted in both the North and the South following the signing of the agreement were released under its terms.

Anyone fancy discussing this, which is directly related to the thread title or are you just going to bash SF again again with the same opinions???

The Brigadier · 18-05-2004 12:49pm

irish1
18-05-2004 11:42 This person is on your Ignore List. To view this post click [here]

I am guessing you replied to my posts. I assume this because people in this thread have quoted your comments on me before.

Just so you know, you are firmly on my ignore list - and I intend it to stay that way.

I really have no interest in anything you may or may not care to say.

I am sorry if you were replying to someone else.

Rock Climber · 18-05-2004 1:06pm

Ok Brigadeer,I'll give you a helping hand

In response to your story regarding your friends having to pay the IRA protection money in Dublin pubs and restaurants ( which I think is scary in a democracy )
Irish1 replied:

Originally posted by irish1
OK Brigadier, lets have some names so, lets name these people who are members of the IRA and are engaging in Drug Dealing and Protection.

I think you might find the INLA are more responisble for the protection.

And in relation to his next post I have a question

Originally posted by irish1
Did anyone else here listen to Tonight with Vincent Browne on Radio 1 last night??

He dedicated half of his show to the McCabe issue.

He raised some interesting points about other people who were released under the GFA including people who were convincted after the agreement and still were released.

One example he gave was that of James Morgan a 16 year old Catholic who was murdered in the most violent way.

"Morgan was murdered because he was a Catholic. He was struck several times on the head with a hammer and then his body was doused with petrol and set alight, before being dumped in a water-filled hole."

Coopey the man convicted of his murder was released under the terms of the Good Friday Agreement after serving only 1 year of his sentence!!!

Read the article and you will see lots more examples, I dont here anyone here complaining about the release of these men!!!

Article:http://www.thepost.ie/web/Sitemap/1.9did-713318916-pageUrl--2FThe-Newspaper-2FSundays-Paper-2FComment-and-Analysis.asp

He also states that the Supreme Court was incorrect on a matter of fact that they gave in their Judgement in relation to the Prisioners in the McCabe Killing:

Anyone fancy discussing this, which is directly related to the thread title or are you just going to bash SF again again with the same opinions???

My question is,how can anyone equate the murder of A Garda( in the Republic of Ireland where there are no British forces ) as a result of a botched armed robbery with what you would otherwise describe as political murders in the North??
I 100% disagree with setting such a precedent,I personally did not have a vote at the time of the GFA,but I would concur that those that I do know who voted for it, weren't including the Bankrobbing murderers of Gerry McCabe in the list of people to benefit from it's generous provisions.

Villain · 18-05-2004 1:13pm

Originally posted by The Brigadier
I am guessing you replied to my posts. I assume this because people in this thread have quoted your comments on me before.

Just so you know, you are firmly on my ignore list - and I intend it to stay that way.

I really have no interest in anything you may or may not care to say.

I am sorry if you were replying to someone else.

lol like I care, for the record I have sent James 2 PM's to discuss what problem he has with me, but he has not read either, so I dont know what his problem is and I dont really care.

This is an open forum where people can say or not say what they want, I think do as I've probably being one of the main posters here that James is missing a lot of the debate.

Maybe someone woulkd like to quote that so he can read it.:D

The Brigadier · 18-05-2004 1:18pm

The reason I have irish1 on Ignore is because I feel phyically repulsed by anybody who supports terrorism - on any side, be it loyalist, republican or al Qaida.

Any person who is being terrorised in dublin by the IRA or any other group certainly does not want their name plastered across an internet messaging board.

Now irish1 obviously thinks that he knows it all.

Well do you know any Irish catholics who have been killed by the IRA in dublin? Well I do.

Do you know anybody paying protection to the IRA in Dublin? Well I do.

I find anybody who will argue and give any justifaction for this to be offensive.

The reason I have you in particular on ignore is because I find your views to be upsetting and offensive.

And maybe the only way you will understand the ignorance you live in is to have one of your friends or family killed by the IRA.

Then let's see you get up and support them or their comrades in Sinn Fein.

The Brigadier · 18-05-2004 1:26pm

Originally posted by irish1
lol like I care, for the record I have sent James 2 PM's to discuss what problem he has with me, but he has not read either,

You have sent nothing of the sort to me.

Please don't lie.

Villain · 18-05-2004 1:28pm

Originally posted by Rock Climber
My question is,how can anyone equate the murder of A Garda( in the Republic of Ireland where there are no British forces ) as a result of a botched armed robbery with what you would otherwise describe as political murders in the North??
I 100% disagree with setting such a precedent,I personally did not have a vote at the time of the GFA,but I would concur that those that I do know who voted for it, weren't including the Bankrobbing murderers of Gerry McCabe in the list of people to benefit from it's generous provisions.

Well I can see your point of view, but I dont think that 16 year old parents would agree with you.

Also Have a read of my quote from thw article below, it includes the muderer of the Last Soldier to be killed in the North he was released under the GFA.

Bernard McGlinn of Castleblayney, Co Monaghan, was convicted in Belfast on March 18, 1999 of the murder of two British soldiers and a former member of the UDR. One of the British soldiers he murdered was the last soldier to be killed in the North in the course of the conflict, Lance Bombardier Stephen Restorick.

McGlinn was also con-victed on March 18, 1999 of the murders of Lance Bombardier Paul Garrett in 1993 and former UDR member, Thomas Johnston in 1978.

Garrett was murdered by a sniper's bullet on December 2,1993 in Keady, Co Armagh.

Johnston was 25 when he was murdered by McGlinn and others. He was a former member of the UDR fromTullyvallen, Newtownhamilton, Co Armagh. On the evening of Saturday August 19, 1978 he went into a confectionary shop at Keady to buy his girlfriend a packet of crisps. On coming out of the shop, he was hit by bullets from two Armalite rifles and died almost immediately. His girlfr iend was wounded in the arm and chest.

McGlinn was also convicted of making bombs, which exploded at the Baltic Exchange, Ham mersmith Bridge and Canary Wharf in London, and other offences. He was sentenced to a total of 490 years impr isonment. McGlinn was convicted along with three others, Michael Caraher of Cullyhana and Martin Mines of Silverbridge.

Caraher was sentenced to 25 years imprisonment for the attempted murder of RUC Constable, Ronnie Galway, in Forkhill Co Armagh in 1997. The others also received lengthy prison sentences.

The defendants refused to recognise the court and they laughed and shouted jubilantly at friends when sentences were imposed, knowing they would be soon released. All four were, in fact, released on July 28, 2000 under the Good Friday Agreement

Villain · 18-05-2004 1:31pm

Originally posted by The Brigadier
You have sent nothing of the sort to me.

Please don't lie.

I am not lying here:

Hairy Homer · 18-05-2004 1:33pm

It would be interesting to see how the publicity for the release of these people if and when it happens would be handled.

Remember when the Balcombe Street Gang were released? They got a rapturous reception at the Sinn Fein Ard Fheis. 'Welcome home comrades' said the speaker from the front of the hall.

The Balcombe Street gang were, by their own admission, the people who planted the Guildford/Woolwich bombs in which several civilians were killed. Before their capture (in Balcombe Street) they held an elderly couple hostage for days before surrendering. Think about your granny pissing and pooing in a toilet with no door in the company of a gang of armed non nationals for a few days and you'll get the idea. Of course, these guys were on 'active service' in 'enemy territory' and spent years in Jail before being released so many people had forgotten about their deeds.

Fast forward to next year. Will Gerry and Marty, not to mention Caoimhin and Mary Lou, be on the stage applauding as Pierce McCauley and his 'comrades' are released? Will they get a hero's welcome in full view of the news camera?

Could be interesting.

What's the bets they get released in the middle of an election campaign just to give Sinn Fein's publicity machine a nasty little dilemma to handle.

Villain · 18-05-2004 1:50pm

Originally posted by The Brigadier
The reason I have irish1 on Ignore is because I feel phyically repulsed by anybody who supports terrorism - on any side, be it loyalist, republican or al Qaida.

Any person who is being terrorised in dublin by the IRA or any other group certainly does not want their name plastered across an internet messaging board.

Now irish1 obviously thinks that he knows it all.

Well do you know any Irish catholics who have been killed by the IRA in dublin? Well I do.

Do you know anybody paying protection to the IRA in Dublin? Well I do.

I find anybody who will argue and give any justifaction for this to be offensive.

The reason I have you in particular on ignore is because I find your views to be upsetting and offensive.

And maybe the only way you will understand the ignorance you live in is to have one of your friends or family killed by the IRA.

Then let's see you get up and support them or their comrades in Sinn Fein.

PM me James and I reply to that, this thread is not for this.

Thanks

Alan

EDIT

BTW everyone I dont support terrorism, although I'm sure most of you already knew that.

/EDIT

Rock Climber · 18-05-2004 2:10pm

Originally posted by irish1
Well I can see your point of view, but I dont think that 16 year old parents would agree with you.

Wel my parents did and do, you don't know them or afaik anybody that knows me for that matter so you cannot say such a thing.
Incidently i was 17 at the time so had no vote.

Also Have a read of my quote from thw article below, it includes the muderer of the Last Soldier to be killed in the North he was released under the GFA.

What you asked me to read doesn't answer the question I posed for you which was...

My question is,how can anyone equate the murder of A Garda( in the Republic of Ireland where there are no British forces ) as a result of a botched armed robbery with what you would otherwise describe as political murders in the North??

Let me extend the question to include the above text and political bombs in GB...
There can be no equasion: One were a set of Murdering armed robbers who happened to be "in again out again" now the aren't , now they are members of the IRA at the time.
The others were murderers who didn't give a hoot about the collateral damage ie the death of innocent civilians they caused in GB or NI when they bombed there, but who were on a political murdering mission with no mandate... but who clearly fall under the category of being on an IRA politically motivated violent action.
(On that note, is it not hypocritical of SF to be campaigning for their release and campaigning against the innocent loss of life by Coalition bombers? but we digress...)
How is the Murder of a Garda while committing an armed robbery in the Republic of Ireland a political act?

Villain · 18-05-2004 2:13pm

Originally posted by Rock Climber
How is the Murder of a Garda while committing an armed robbery in the Republic of Ireland a political act?

This has been asked and answered on this thread before. Have a read back I stated my opinion quite clearly on a few occasions.

Mighty_Mouse · 18-05-2004 2:25pm

Christ! This is brain-numbing stuff!

its part of a deal that finally ends all IRA activity

yes it really will. The IRA have never failed to keep commitments so far. (the Sunday World will write different for the next 5 yrs regardless!)

My question is,how can anyone equate the murder of A Garda( in the Republic of Ireland where there are no British forces ) as a result of a botched armed robbery with what you would otherwise describe as political murders in the North??

The South doesnt matter because their covered by GFA. IRA men ......................ira activity .............yada yada

What's the bets they get released in the middle of an election campaign just to give Sinn Fein's publicity machine a nasty little dilemma to handle

You can almost guarantee it but yet SF are still prepared to push for it. This isnt the slick PR which most people claim has got them votes ............its fighting for their beliefs regardless of the publicity and politics involved.

The reason I have irish1 on Ignore is because I feel phyically repulsed by anybody who supports terrorism - on any side, be it loyalist, republican or al Qaida

Tell you what put all Shinners on IGNORE and argue why they aren't democratic!

Do you know anybody paying protection to the IRA in Dublin? Well I do.

Realy :rolleyes: ................................was there someone else in here who had Russian Maffia friends too! Jasus, Dublins gone to the rags!

The IRA engage in Drug Dealing

Pass, Africa 4!!! Whatever else you say about them ..........this is wrong. See I just dont understand why anti-republicans don't just argue about whats happened and true instead of creting fiction which makes a mocery of their own stance.

While not every member of the IRA is a scum sucking evil criminal.

progress Dr, progress. And you about to resign as the head of a progressive party like the DUP!

Swiss, my recollection is that when I was making up my mind whether or not to vote for the GFA, it was made unequivocally clear that these men were not included under its terms

well someone is lying!

ps.
Policing .........patten reforms, independant commission etc etc

ReefBreak · 18-05-2004 2:27pm

Originally posted by irish1
This has been asked and answered on this thread before. Have a read back I stated my opinion quite clearly on a few occasions.

Can you re-state them again, because I certainly don't remember you saying how the murder of garda while a post office was being robbed is a "political act". And if you do think it's a "political act", then you shouldn't consider yourself to be Irish.

As for James Morgan above, I would have been 110% AGAINST the release of his murderers, but then I didn't make the decision. Ditto with any others released since the GFA. In fact, you can take everything that I have said about SF/IRA and you can apply it to the people responsible for his murder. I don't see any difference between the people that murdered Gerry McCabe and the people that murdered James Morgan. You might like to think there's a difference but a murderer is a murderer in my book - even if there sentence got reduced to manslaughter because they intimidated witnesses.

Villain · 18-05-2004 2:40pm

Originally posted by ReefBreak
Can you re-state them again, because I certainly don't remember you saying how the murder of garda while a post office was being robbed is a "political act". And if you do think it's a "political act", then you shouldn't consider yourself to be Irish.

I said I believed the them men were on active IRA duty at the time, raising money for the terrorists. Read back and youl get a more detailed view.

Mighty_Mouse · 18-05-2004 2:41pm

As for James Morgan above, I would have been 110% AGAINST the release of his murderers, but then I didn't make the decision. Ditto with any others released since the GFA. In fact, you can take everything that I have said about SF/IRA and you can apply it to the people responsible for his murder. I don't see any difference between the people that murdered Gerry McCabe and the people that murdered James Morgan. You might like to think there's a difference but a murderer is a murderer in my book - even if there sentence got reduced to manslaughter because they intimidated witnesses.

But that just doesnt make sense, man. I mean FFS what world are you living in. Release nobody!!!! Why delude yourself with a high moral ground when it would never work in NI. Ever.

You have completely failed to grasp the situation in NI if you think the voilence would of stopped by people turing to god or hating themselves for killing people!!! I just cannot understand this argument. Do you recognise that without the GFA there would not be peace in NI. I think people have forgotten very very very very quickly how desperate NI was and what it took to resolve.

The Brigadier · 18-05-2004 2:44pm

Originally posted by Mighty_Mouse
Whatever else you say about them ..........this is wrong.

Well a friend of my fathers was killed by the IRA in dublin about 5 years ago.

The reason he was killed is because a member of the IRA was trying to sell drugs to his son. He went down treatened the IRA drug dealer and hit him a couple of times.

He was shot in broad daylight in dublin within a week later.

ReefBreak · 18-05-2004 2:48pm

Originally posted by irish1
I said I believed the them men were on active IRA duty at the time, raising money for the terrorists. Read back and youl get a more detailed view.

Ah I see, your opinions really are as morally empty and disgusting as I thought they were. This is considered active IRA duty is it? Murdering gardai and robbing post offices? Right, okay.

I can only assume you are under the age of 20, because if you had grown up listening to the news of IRA/UDA/etc atrocities every day, you possibly wouldn't have the sick, twisted views that you have now. (Unless you were brought up in an IRA-loving household, in which case, I really don't have much hope for you. Oh, and please change your name from "Irish1" to something else, because you using that name is an embarrassment to normal Irish people that despise terrorism and murder.

Mighty_Mouse · 18-05-2004 2:50pm

The IRA shot someone in Dublin 5years ago? Are you sure? This could end the peace process in NI!

Villain · 18-05-2004 2:56pm

Originally posted by ReefBreak
Ah I see, your opinions really are as morally empty and disgusting as I thought they were. This is considered active IRA duty is it? Murdering gardai and robbing post offices? Right, okay.

I can only assume you are under the age of 20, because if you had grown up listening to the news of IRA/UDA/etc atrocities every day, you possibly wouldn't have the sick, twisted views that you have now. (Unless you were brought up in an IRA-loving household, in which case, I really don't have much hope for you. Oh, and please change your name from "Irish1" to something else, because you using that name is an embarrassment to normal Irish people that despise terrorism and murder.

I'm not going to rise to that

Should McCabe killers be release as part of IRA disbandment deal?

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