Driving down Harcourt street...

seamus

I know the general warning is "Don't drive on the Luas tracks if at all possible", but where do we stand? I work at the Stephen's Green end of Harcourt St, and every morning it's queued all the way back. I can get through it quick enough, but most mornings I've taken to driving most of the way along the tracks (outside the roadworks cones) to get into work. This morning I drove blatantly past a Garda car and no bother.

So is it legal? At Stephen's Green, there are big "Trams Only" signs, so that's obvious, but apart from ensuring to drive on the left hand tracks, and watching out for trams and unwary pedestrians, it's safe enough on Harcourt St. It may be a different story for a car though, given their size.

Steve Conway

You may be able to get away with it now, but I doubt you will when the full service starts running. There will be a very high-level of on-street enforcment at first, to eusure that people get used to the new situation.

Having said that, the thing which I am much more expecting to happen in Harcourt Street is the car parked on tracks overnight, or the Taxi blocking the line while dropping off on the wrong side of the street "sure it's only for a minute".

BrianD

but apart from ensuring to drive on the left hand tracks, and watching out for trams and unwary pedestrians, it's safe enough on Harcourt St. It may be a different story for a car though, given their size.

An excellent strategy! Works everywhere! Why not try it on the M50 perhaps in the opposite direction to the traffic? If you were to carefully drive in the hard shoulder on the opposite side of the road you would conveniently avoid all the traffic jams.

The only time you are supposed to drive on a segregated tram way is when there is a obstruction on the roadway used by ordinary traffic. This does not include traffic jams. Seamus, you sum up all that is bad in motorists!

- Obvious disregard for road signage and the rules of the road
- Blatant disregard for your own health and saftety and that of others.
- Lack of common courtesy to other motorists (no doubt you cut in on the Q later)

Hopefully your actions won't cause the death of an unsuspecting pedestrian crossing the tram line or cause a collision with a tram. No doubt you will blame the tram for your misfortune.


Can I suggest you get up earlier!!

BTW - I did see a taxi doing a drop off at the Harcourt Hotel and doing a rather rapid manoeuver as a tram approached!

seamus

Originally posted by BrianD
- Obvious disregard for road signage and the rules of the road
- Blatant disregard for your own health and saftety and that of others.
- Lack of common courtesy to other motorists (no doubt you cut in on the Q later)

No doubt you didn't even read my post, I haven't shown any of the above three :rolleyes:

SheroN

Shoddy ted shoddy.

vinnyfitz

Its a moot point as to whether Harcourt St is segregated. I don't think it is as of now but they might stick up signs any day..

Anyway it won't be a problem soon - when Harcourt St is limited to traffic which has to turn left at Cuffe St (with effect early July) there will be plenty of room on the LHS for you

seamus

Originally posted by vinnyfitz
Anyway it won't be a problem soon - when Harcourt St is limited to traffic which has to turn left at Cuffe St (with effect early July) there will be plenty of room on the LHS for you

Really? Excellent. That answers my question by meaning I don't need an answer
Is this to do with the temporary two-way Stephen's green setup?

Anyway vinnyfitz, that was my original query - is it actually segregated? Lack of signage or a dividing barrier says its not.

BrianD

No doubt you didn't even read my post, I haven't shown any of the above three

ERR..Seamus I think I can read. In your original posting you stated that you drive down the tram tracks on Harcourt St.

but most mornings I've taken to driving most of the way along the tracks (outside the roadworks cones) to get into work

So therefore all three do apply to you! Do you think they put up the cones up for a laugh?

There is also signage on the street - similar to that used for bus lanes - indicating that the road is segregated between tram way and road way. There is also a thick white line. These have been in pace for some time now. You can of course cross the tracks to access some of the cul-de-sacs and premises entrances that are on the east side of the street.

seamus

Originally posted by BrianD
So therefore all three do apply to you! Do you think they put up the cones up for a laugh?

Of course they do. If you had read my post you would have seen that at no point is anyone's safety in jeopardy, and I work on the road, so I leave the traffic queue altogether. I'm plenty courteous, thank you. It's not a matter of getting up earlier, I couldn't be arsed sitting in the traffic, even though I'd still be in on time. If it's illegal, I'll just weave around the traffic like I normally do, no problem, but there's no signage on that road (apart from a warning sign to alert to the fact that there are tram lines there), and no attempts have been made to educate drivers as to their actual standing on that road.

vinnyfitz

Originally posted by seamus
Really? Excellent. That answers my question by meaning I don't need an answer
Is this to do with the temporary two-way Stephen's green setup?

Yep - but even in the longer term you will only be rejoined by cars heading for the Surgeons car-park etc. The buses will have been scared off the street also i expect.

Anyway vinnyfitz, that was my original query - is it actually segregated? Lack of signage or a dividing barrier says its not.

Eh dunno, I agree with you its not obvious. BTW did you mention to BrianD that you drive a bike not a car?

seamus

Originally posted by vinnyfitz
Eh dunno, I agree with you its not obvious. BTW did you mention to BrianD that you drive a bike not a car?

First rule of trolling....

Victor

Seamus, it isn't allowed. Trams, emergency vehicles and access (at access points) only. I'm sure I saw a "Tram Lane" sign the other day.

Also, you have no grip on the rails, especially in wet or icy weather.

BrianD

I suspect Seamas that you are a road user that thinks that most road rules don't apply to you as you have some type of superior driving skills.

Let me re-iterate

- Obvious disregard for road signage and the rules of the road
Next time you drive perhaps you might care to count the number of signs indicating the presence of the tram way. Behold the thick white line that divides the tramway from the rest of the street.

- Blatant disregard for your own health and saftety and that of others.
This one should be pretty obvious. You are driving on an area reserved for trams. Just how can you state that nobody else safety is in jeopardy? Kinda like "safe speeding" is it?

- Lack of common courtesy to other motorists (no doubt you cut in on the Q later) Do you think people like being stuck in Q's? Do you think other road users like other road users skipping and then cutting in and causing further delays to them just because that person didn't allow enough journey and time or "couldn't be arsed" as you say.

and no attempts have been made to educate drivers as to their actual standing on that road.

Would that be the notices that have appeared in the national press?

Yes, I did assume that you were driving a car and not a motorcycle but it really makes no difference.

Are you one of those motorcyclists that drive in bus lanes and cycle lanes?

Victor

Seamie! http://www.rpa.ie/news/recent_announcements.asp?action=view&news_id=19

seamus

Originally posted by BrianD
I suspect Seamas that you are a road user that thinks that most road rules don't apply to you as you have some type of superior driving skills.

No, not at all. But to some degree, I'm very much a "Do as I say, not as I do" kind of commentator. I don't deny that.

- Obvious disregard for road signage and the rules of the road
Next time you drive perhaps you might care to count the number of signs indicating the presence of the tram way. Behold the thick white line that divides the tramway from the rest of the street.

I'll deal with this below.

- Blatant disregard for your own health and saftety and that of others.
This one should be pretty obvious. You are driving on an area reserved for trams. Just how can you state that nobody else safety is in jeopardy? Kinda like "safe speeding" is it?

Just how is anybody else's safety at risk? I'm acutely aware of my own extreme risk just by being on the bike, but will never do anything that would put others at risk.

- Lack of common courtesy to other motorists (no doubt you cut in on the Q later) Do you think people like being stuck in Q's? Do you think other road users like other road users skipping and then cutting in and causing further delays to them just because that person didn't allow enough journey and time or "couldn't be arsed" as you say.

I'm sure they don't, but I don't cause other people delays...."I'm very courteous thank you" to quote myself.

Would that be the notices that have appeared in the national press?

I don't buy papers.

Are you one of those motorcyclists that drive in bus lanes and cycle lanes?

Bus lanes, yep. It's safer. My safety overrides the law in my eyes. It would be worth the fine/points.

Thanks for that Victor, mucho appreciated. It says: "Where tramways are not intended to accommodate other road vehicles, the road surface will be unsuitable for motorcycles". While that's certainly not an invitation to drive there, it indicates to me that either they haven't come up with any actual laws that say you can't drive where it's tarmac/rail, or they're not entirely sure if they'll be strict on mixing the traffic at first to get people used to it and then relax it a little later on if possible.

Victor, the rails are only dangerous if you ride on them...:)

Victor

Originally posted by seamus
it indicates to me that either they haven't come up with any actual laws that say you can't drive where it's tarmac/rail, or they're not entirely sure if they'll be strict on mixing the traffic at first to get people used to it and then relax it a little later on if possible.

It's covered under the Light Rail Act and the appropriate light rail order, as opposed to the Roads / Traffic Acts.

Originally posted by seamus
Victor, the rails are only dangerous if you ride on them...:)

And if you suddenly need to avoid something? :mad:

seamus

Originally posted by Victor
It's covered under the Light Rail Act and the appropriate light rail order, as opposed to the Roads / Traffic Acts.

Ah, I'll have a look at that. Could be a grey area, maybe not.

And if you suddenly need to avoid something? :mad:

What would I have to avoid? Who the hell would be on the tracks?!

BrianD

I'll deal with this below.

...and you never did!

BTW if you can't see how the safety of others is at risk by your actions you shouldn't be on the road!!! It is not surprising that the NRA no longer talk about "road accidents" but "road crashes" as most crashes are not caused accidently but by deliberate actions of the driver. Some as simple as ignoring road signage as in this case.

seamus

Originally posted by BrianD
...and you never did!

I did. If the tramway wasn't meant to accomodate other traffic, it wouldn't be tarmaced.

BTW if you can't see how the safety of others is at risk by your actions you shouldn't be on the road!!! It is not surprising that the NRA no longer talk about "road accidents" but "road crashes" as most crashes are not caused accidently but by deliberate actions of the driver. Some as simple as ignoring road signage as in this case.

You've failed to state how other people's safety is at risk.

Asok

I work on that street and today as i was wandering down the tracks hoping for a tram (SUE THE CORPO BOY!!) some loonatic drove out onto it with his motorised bicycle! less of this i say and back to the penny farthing!

BrianD

Jeez...Seamas, no wonder insurance premiums are so high with guys like you on the loose.

I did. If the tramway wasn't meant to accomodate other traffic, it wouldn't be tarmaced.

You didn't and we await your enlightened answer. What sort of idiotic response is the above? Can we expect to see you motoring down the pedestrian pavement as they too are often tarmac-ed.

Seamus, it should be obvious to you - especially as a motorcyclist - why other peoples safety is at risk when you enter a zone that is reserved for one type of vehicle only.

In any case, you sum up all that is wrong with Irish road users as you have adopted an ambivilant attidude to road safety completlely ignoring the environment that your driving in.

I take it that you have taken note of the white line and the blue tramway signage on Harcourt St.

Anyway this is going nowhere. Hopefully, I won't read about you as one of the six fatalities that occurr on average in the first year of operation of new tram ways.

seamus

Originally posted by BrianD
You didn't and we await your enlightened answer. What sort of idiotic response is the above? Can we expect to see you motoring down the pedestrian pavement as they too are often tarmac-ed.

I DID. Yet you only post your opinion, and no real substance on "Is it legal to drive where the tramway is tarmaced and suitable for other vehicles?". I'm going to check into this on fact, and I'll be happy to report even if it is illegal. Can we expect to see you strolling down the middle of the road without regard to your own safety, considering these are often concrete like a path? :rolleyes:

Seamus, it should be obvious to you - especially as a motorcyclist - why other peoples safety is at risk when you enter a zone that is reserved for one type of vehicle only.

No. I fail to see the extra danger if I'm being careful. If I wasn't watching, absolutely, but if I'm keeping an eye out for people and vehicles who don't expect me to be there (which is something you have to do most of the time on a motorbike), then there's no more danger than normal.

In any case, you sum up all that is wrong with Irish road users as you have adopted an ambivilant attidude to road safety completlely ignoring the environment that your driving in.

I take it that you have taken note of the white line and the blue tramway signage on Harcourt St.

Anyway this is going nowhere. Hopefully, I won't read about you as one of the six fatalities that occurr on average in the first year of operation of new tram ways.

:rolleyes:
I'm hardly being ambivilant and dangerous if I'm posting here actually asking about it, and making an attempt to establish the legal standing. All you've done is post your opinions.

DrEvil

To answer you original point seamus.

It is illegal to drive down the tracks on harcourt street!

It's very simple as there's a continuous white line between the car lane and the tram tracks. In the rules of the road you learn that you are not allowed cross a continuous white line so therefore you are breaking the law everytime you do it!
There is also the fact that there are also signs stating that it's for trams only!

As for the safety issues it is quite dangerous to drive across the tracks especially when you would tend to be almost parallel as you cross (unlike driving across at the recommended right angle) and it's worse when they are wet!

BrianD

I have certainly posted opinions on your approach to driving and personal intrepretation of the rules of the road. The information from your original posting along with the actual conditions on Harcourt St. are the basis of my opinions and I believe that I am justified.

Much of what you state is safe practice in your opinion is based on what you believe is safe and seems to be largely based on ignorance. You seem to have difficulty in ascertaining whether it is legal or permissable to drive on the tram way in Harcourt St. Yet, the tram way is clearly signed with "no entry - except trams", a continuous white line establishes the edge of the zone and blue signs indicate the presence of the tram way. These familiar road signs and markings are posted on the street yet you don't seem to be able to understand them! You are also aware of the presence of traffic cones but have chosen to disregard these as well.

The reason that the tram way was created and signposted is to allow for safe and efficient operation of all types of traffic on the street. Therefore, if you disobey these signs you are not behaving in a safe manner and you are likely to inconvenience others on this stretch of roadway. Of course you can be extra vigilant while disregarding all road signs but are you driving in a safe manner? Of course not. You are taking a risk.

I have formed an opinion of your driving ability and your failure to appreciate and understand risks. As to whether you should drive on the tramway please refer to the factual information in my own posting and others in this thread.

seamus

Originally posted by BrianD
Much of what you state is safe practice in your opinion is based on what you believe is safe and seems to be largely based on ignorance. You seem to have difficulty in ascertaining whether it is legal or permissable to drive on the tram way in Harcourt St. Yet, the tram way is clearly signed with "no entry - except trams",

Except that it's not marked with a sign like that.

Of course you can be extra vigilant while disregarding all road signs but are you driving in a safe manner? Of course not. You are taking a risk.

Driving a motorcycle is always a risk. The scope of that risk is a matter of preference on the driver's part. I don't believe it's any undue risk.

I have formed an opinion of your driving ability and your failure to appreciate and understand risks. As to whether you should drive on the tramway please refer to the factual information in my own posting and others in this thread.

I fail to see any factual information, useful sure but no facts. I'ev also failed to find any kind of solid legislation, so common sense prevails, and I'll regard it the same as one would regard a bus lane. You can have whatever opinion you like about my driving, I don't require your approval

BrianD

Of course you don't need my approval to drive and you are correct that common sense should enable you interepret the risks in each situation and to continue on about your journey safely. Unfortunately, common sense hasn't prevailed in your case as the Harcourt St. tramway is clearly defined with road markings and road signs including the ones you say aren't there. Perhaps it's just a matter of opening your eyes. :-)


Perhaps you might like to visit this link to allaboutbuses.com and see the signage for yourself.

seamus

Originally posted by BrianD
Perhaps it's just a matter of opening your eyes. :-)

Maybe you're confusing them with the ones at the Stephen's green end which say no entry except for trams

BrianD

Those are the very signs I am speaking about except they are also located on a number of points on Harcourt St along with the white line and the blue tram way signs. Pretty straightforward stuff, eh?

Now that you are enlightened may I wish you safe commuting in the future. Good bye!

seamus

Originally posted by BrianD
Those are the very signs I am speaking about except they are also located on a number of points on Harcourt St along with the white line and the blue tram way signs. Pretty straightforward stuff, eh?

Indeed, pity the only apply to traffic moving the opposite way

BrianD

Really? perhaps you should think about that one for a while!!!

Good bye.

Karma

€20 euro fine for using a bus lane(1 point as well, maybe 2?)

not long on the bike?

What sort of licence do you have?

Personally why dont we all just get our favourite mode of transport and meet at the top with of Harcourt st and make our way down to the green anyway we feel. We will see who is alive and who is being sued while in a cell in mountjoy's men club?

Me personally? I hate the street and tram lines anyway- 2 motorcyclists have died in related accidents this year and a mate broke his wrist when his wheel slipped on a tram line in the rain.

How you use the road system in Ireland will dertermine how long you will use it, one way or another.
Don't forget anybody can report you for dangerous driving these days, just by your reg.