Chinese Premier is in town - why no protests?

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Redleslie

Milosovic wasn't a dictator, he was democratically elected in 1997 and he's still an MP afaik. If the people didn't want him in they should've waited til election time instead of indulging in mob rule obviously.

I don't suppose Reefbreak is going to bother explaining why he wasn't out protesting himself if he's so concerned about evil communist (quite a bit of foreign capital going in there last time I checked) China's human rights record.

pork99

Originally posted by AngelofFire
As for the swp.The socialist party would have a lot in common with chinese economic ideology but the chinese governments social policies would be extremley authoritarian unlike the swp.
www.politicalcompass.org

This is very naive. As soon as you (the SWP) start any social engineering you are going down a road the ultimate destination of which is a place where you lock up dissidents in mental hospitals & gulags. You might have the best of intentions but that is the ultimate effect of real Marxist policies: "everything will be fine if we just divide society's wealth fairly". :rolleyes: (How many votes has the SWP ever got? Is it not a "play party" for middle class students to work out their anti-establishment feelings?)

This naivety extends to this idea of the USA as the world arch-villain. I can't defend Bush & his neo-con mates but look at the Abu Ghraib prison scandal. Can you imagine any Chinese officials ever having to face any public scrutiny for their atrocities in Tibet? And then changing their policies because of adverse public opinion? As Winston Churchill said "The Americans always do the right thing - eventually"

Compare going on a protest in the PRC to one here, for example the little May Day scuffle outside the Phoenix Park. Here you might get wet or get a slap from a cop. In China doing the same thing you risk death or slavery in a gulag for many years.

When I was a student I can remember reading SWP literature and finding it very attractive. I also remember the beginnings of my disillusionment with left-wing politics. There was a definate anti-American and pro-Marxist totalitarianism bias. I remember when I was in 1st or 2nd year - would have been 1989 - when the executed bodies of the Ceausescus were shown on TV news. Some of my left wing fellow students were upset and disgusted by that. (And by the collapse of Eastern European Communism generally) A couple of years later I was in London and I met a couple of Romanians who had lived under the Ceausescu regime. I asked them how they felt about those images and they said that they got the champagne out and had a party when they saw that. Interesting contrast.

Zombrex

Down here in Limerick there were protests, and a lot of quite pissed off people

I think the reason there wasn't mass protests was because there isn't a war going on involving Ireland and China at the moment.

I am pretty sure if Bush came to Ireland before Iraq or Afganistan he would have recieved about the same level of protest, or even less

Zombrex

Originally posted by pork99
This is very naive. As soon as you (the SWP) start any social engineering you are going down a road the ultimate destination of which is a place where you lock up dissidents in mental hospitals & gulags.

Not necessarily

Not to get too off topic, but there are two ways to form a communist society, the easy way and the hard way

The easy way evolves forming a authoritarian government that simply forces the people of your country to submit to the communist economic and social structure. Naturally you will get people who resist, so to stop the entire thing coming apart, military and oppressive rule must be imposed and those who attempt to fight against the system are eliminated "for the good of society." This is the method used in pretty much every communist country, from Cuba to Russia.

The hard way evolves convincing everyone that the communist system and principles are worth while and better than the old capitalist system. This way there is no need for a repressive system because everyone wants to live in this form of government (at least the majority in a democracy).

Notice that both these methods are independent of the actually communist ideals themselves. They are just too methods of attempting to impliment them.

The SWP is attempting (afaik, i am not a member) to impliment a socialist system using the later form (the hard way). Now personally I think they are doomed to failure because it is unrealistic and against even a basic study of human nature to assume that people will want a communist system. Put simple people are simply too nasty and greedy to live in a system whole centered around sharing and helping one another, and it is unrealistic to assume otherwise. But I have nothing against them trying, and it does not mean they are preaching repression.

Dictatorships or authortarian governments do not go hand in hand with communism. They are just a way (the easiest way) to impliment a communist system.

therecklessone

Originally posted by Redleslie
Milosovic wasn't a dictator, he was democratically elected in 1997 and he's still an MP afaik. If the people didn't want him in they should've waited til election time instead of indulging in mob rule obviously.

They did wait until election time.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/static/in_depth/europe/2000/milosevic_yugoslavia/downfall.stm

From the link above
When Milosevic refused to recognise the election victory of opposition leader Vojislav Kostunica, hundreds of thousands of people took to the streets, and a national strike was declared. One by one, key allies dropped their support, including the Serbian Orthodox church and parts of the state media.

Confidence grew, and 10 days after the election protesters stormed the parliament and the state TV station, setting both buildings on fire. Many policemen took off their helmets and joined the protesters. Milosevic's empire had crumbled.

http://edition.cnn.com/2000/WORLD/europe/09/29/yugoslavia.vote.03/index.html

Redleslie

Ta for that. My mistake. He's still an MP though.

Jailed former President Slobodan Milosevic and another U.N. war crimes suspect won seats in Serbia's parliament as an extreme nationalist party swept weekend elections, according to results released Monday.

Vojislav Seselj's Serbian Radical Party, which supported Milosevic's 1990s Balkan war campaigns, won 81 seats in Sunday's ballot for the 250-seat parliament - far more than the pro-Western groups that toppled Milosevic three years ago, the state electoral commission said.

therecklessone

You're welcome.

And sure isn't Micky Lowry still a sitting TD...;)

bonkey

Originally posted by therecklessone
And sure isn't Micky Lowry still a sitting TD...;)

I thought he was a fictional cop from Bad Boys.

jc

therecklessone

Originally posted by bonkey
I thought he was a fictional cop from Bad Boys.

jc

The double jobbing sonofabitch...;)