Some thoughts on the Politics forum

bug

I was originally introduced to boards.ie due to the politics forum back in February 2003. I found it to be an interesting place to read specifically about the situation in Iraq at the time.
I find however that the forum can be a little, one-sided and very leftist on certain issues, perhaps this is representative of the posters on the board itself, but I tend to stay away from certain issues which interest me and indeed posting on the board due to the fact that it seems any poster with a minority view seems to get lambasted by nitpicking on their eloquence, phraseology and general use of the english language. Sometimes to the extent that it borders on the ridiculous.
Isnt everyone entitled to their particular view especially on a political issue without "linkage" being screamed at them continuously, once they state that it is an opinion rather than a fact? I understand that it is a difficult board to moderate and by enlarge it is done relatively well.
My question is you think that the board is relative to the political world representing right, middle and leftist views or not ie. is it balanced?

bug

Dont be at yourself

The majority of posters are clearly leftist, but that's not really a problem that can be addressed by boards.ie, if it is a problem at all. A board can provide a balanced opinion regardless of the views of the majority - it's just up to the minority to be vocal.

The issue of nitpicking phraseology, little details etc. in place of providing an opposing argument is a problem, and one that could be tackled by the mods. To a large extent, the mods do seem to keep these these petty squabbles to a minimum, but inevitably many do get through. How can you deal with it though? If people can't think of a rebuttal, they'll rarely back down, and instead resort to that sort of post.

BuffyBot

It's pretty much the same on any politics forum I've seen. Indeed, I think boards.ie's is actually slightly better because people ask questions and challenge things.

If the majority of posters are "leftists", well so be it. A good argument, with good supporting evidence will stand up no matter who the percieved majority is.

Barry Aldwell

The users of another Irish board I use despise boards.ie in general because of the majority of leftists on the politics forum

Moriarty

I doubt that political 'affiliation' is anywhere near balanced in Ireland, or europe as a whole. A large majority of people seem to be left-leaning to one extent or another. It's only natural therefore that the majority in politics here would hold a leftist view.

I don't think the politics board is moderated in a biased way. There are a few clear right-wing regulars on the politics board, they're just rather vastly outnumbered by the left-wing element. That's a real pity, as it can quite often lead to a percieved mob-mentality in the left and far-left posters of simply "flooding" any topics they may be intrested in, not giving any right-wing posters a chance to respond, stifling debate.

I really don't see any quick-fix solution to this problem though. The only thing that would rectify the balance would be an influx of right-wing posters, as has so often happened with the other side. I haven't seen a real one in the time I've been here though, so that doesn't bode well.

Do you have any suggestions yourself, bug?

bug

Originally posted by NekkidBibleMan
The majority of posters are clearly leftist, but that's not really a problem that can be addressed by boards.ie, if it is a problem at all. A board can provide a balanced opinion regardless of the views of the majority - it's just up to the minority to be vocal

but are minority views accommodated to the extent of the majority views?
I mean as an example, on the issue of immigration, sky news is more balanced on the issue than the Politics forum at the moment in my opinion.

The issue of nitpicking phraseology, little details etc. in place of providing an opposing argument is a problem, and one that could be tackled by the mods. To a large extent, the mods do seem to keep these these petty squabbles to a minimum, but inevitably many do get through. How can you deal with it though? If people can't think of a rebuttal, they'll rarely back down, and instead resort to that sort of post.

The mods general do keep trolling and personal insults down but sometimes it seems that the mods can be also guilty of nitpicking on phaseology when the original posters point is obvious and apparent, the threads become tedious as a result IMO.

Originally posted by Moriarty
...That's a real pity, as it can quite often lead to a percieved mob-mentality in the left and far-left posters of simply "flooding" any topics they may be intrested in, not giving any right-wing posters a chance to respond, stifling debate.

yes I agree with you there completely.
On the issue of suggestions, this is something that I have been wanting to post for a while mainly to see what other people think really. I have spoken to Gandalf on my personal views on it briefly before and he was very accommodating.

ecksor

Moving to Boards Discussion.

SantaHoe

Generally if you can't back up your dogma with logical reasoning or facts, then I wouldn't blame you for being frustrated.

Actually, you missed an apostrophe there.


Even I don't know whether this is a troll or not.

bug

Originally posted by SantaHoe
Generally if you can't back up your dogma with logical reasoning or facts, then I wouldn't blame you for being frustrated.

Actually, you missed an apostrophe there.


Even I don't know whether this is a troll or not.

I will reply to your somewhat personal response.
I can generally back up my arguments although I wouldnt be a politician, which, as is my understanding, is not a requirement to post on the politics forum. Neither is it a requirement to have a degree in English :rolleyes:
I do have valid views like any other person. Im hardly frustrated with the forum, more trying open up a discussion to the general boards community and see what their thoughts are.

davej

Maybe part of the reason that people with conservative viewpoints on the Politics board feel they can't air their views is because they find themselves constantly on the defensive. It's as if many have an inferiority complex after over a decade of battering by the media (in fact since the end of the cold war). As a result of this there is often an intrinsic distrust of the honesty of motives on the part of those on the left towards those on the right.

davej

DeVore

if you clearly state that something is your unsupported opinion then I doubt the mods would ask you to back it up. However, there are far FAR too many people on the internet who go round stating that something is FACT (generally in capitals) for my liking.

DeV.

davej

there are far FAR too many people on the internet who go round stating that something is FACT

Can we have some linkage on this statement please ?

davej

Exit

From someone who reads stuff there rather than posts, the only problem I find with the forum is that threads get very tedious by the 3rd or 4th page. People's posts become broken down into sentences so that the avergae post looks like:

QUOTE by poster A

retort by poster B

QUOTE by poster A

retort by poster B

QUOTE by poster A

retort by poster B

and so on. And then of course, poster A Retorts to poster B's retorts, and on and on. As I said, it becomes very very tedious where it gets to the point where it's not the actual topic that's being discussed at all.

But anyway, there's nothing mods can do about that.

Mercury_Tilt

This post has been deleted.

mr_angry

Looking across Europe, most of the states have socialist governments of some sort. Perhaps the voting demographic in Europe is just simply leftist, and hence the Politics board is merely a reflection of that.

What annoys me about the Politics board is the length of some of the replies there. On some other boards, you could scroll through 20 replies with two flicks of the mousewheel. On politics, it can take forever sometimes, and when it comes to actually reading it all, it becomes very very tedious.

Another of the problems is that debates are taken over by extremist posters, rather than the sensical majority. These people are few in number, but extraordinarily vocal, and while they don't break the rules, they exaggerate every single point to suit their own view. It can be a little frustrating, but I don't think there's an easy solution to the problem - we just have to live with it.

mike65

This thread should be sticky on the Politics boards.

Mike.

gandalf

bug I only noticed this thread just now so apologies on the delay in replying here.

Yes I agree politics is left leaning on boards but that is because of its make up and not because people with right wing views are "bullied" as you are insinuating here. The only time I tend to challange someone is if they make soundbites without backing them up. I also never criticise anyone for bad spelling and grammer once I can understand their ideas and I will come down very heavily on anyone else who does criticise someone for bad diction etc.

but sometimes it seems that the mods can be also guilty of nitpicking on phaseology when the original posters point is obvious and apparent, the threads become tedious as a result IMO.

I take particular exception to that bug, can you provide examples of this please so I can understand what you mean by this? (BTW don't take this personally but you have stepped up and made the statements I just want to see if its true and if so what we can do to remedy it. If you can't you owe me beers!!! )

Gandalf.

bug

I take particular exception to that bug, can you provide examples of this please so I can understand what you mean by this? (BTW don't take this personally but you have stepped up and made the statements I just want to see if its true and if so what we can do to remedy it. If you can't you owe me beers!!! )

Providing examples Gandalf is futile given the original point of the thread. I just had another mod who is off in sunnier climates in mind.

My point is, that regardless of the generic political sway of the boards make up and given that it is a board for political discussion that all political ideologies should have equal sway. It’s only a discussion board. It’s not like we are electing poster to positions of power. As such, post and thread should not be modded under a leftist paradox. By that I mean boards can be very right wing in its modding and general views on certain subject matters.

Politics is an emotive issue, and my original point is proven I think in the fact that
this thread was closed.
I do understand you are holding the fort alone at the moment.

With all due respect you have closed the above thread due to it being emotive. There are many threads on the politics boards that are emotive. You only have to look at any thread about Sinn Fein to see my point but a thread concerning a once off referendum is now locked in its prime due to mods thinking it is an emotive subject? Of course it’s an emotive subject. It is a political issue that will always be emotive but now it has been deemed to be a "subject not for discussion" until a better time.

No offence but like all other thread if people shoot their mouths off and get banned for it well so be it but locking the thread is killing of a debate that is worth while and interesting.

gandalf

Couple of things. If you are criticising another mod maybe you should approach them first before going public here. Its a bit unfair is it not.

The sway of direction of a discussion board depends on its members. The majority of members on here would be centre left. I do not care what political views people have as long as they can present them without resorting to soundbites or insulting others when they disagree with them.

As regarding that thread that I closed (for 24 hours) yes it was closed due to the fact that I did not want to ban people and the fact that the mods had discussed several of the posters that were posting in it who have been at each others necks for the last few weeks. I made the call to close it.

As regards other threads if you feel they are getting out of hand then please use the report this thread feature. I certainly don't read every thread as I expect to be dealing with adults and not people in general who need "kindergarten" treatment.

BTW you now owe me beers

swiss

Politics schmolitics.

The politics forum is increasingly becoming a soapbox for certain ideologies or in certain cases candidates. If a thread is opened I can almost guarantee the terms "left" or "right" in conjunction with "wing" will appear somewhere. Who benefits from this? Why is a mooted idea always labelled in this manner?

Of course, you also get the weekly threads. The one involving Israel and Palestine, usually another involving Sinn Féin somehow, another involving US foreign policy, and throw in another about Fianna Fáil corruption/ineptitude/lethargy for good measure. Like any good soap opera the dialogue is slightly different, the plot and characters remain the same.

This is nothing compared to the complete and utter nitpicking in which lots of people appear to engage.

Originally posted by Exit:

QUOTE by poster A

retort by poster B

QUOTE by poster A

retort by poster B

QUOTE by poster A

retort by poster B

I've seen this so often, and I wish to God it would just stop. For a start, taking one sentence at a time would usually mean you are taking it out of context. Secondly, if you are responding to a post chances are people have already read it. You don't need to quote it in it's entirety just so you can get your point across. Summarise if you have to. Just try it.

Sand

The majority of posters are probably center left/ social democrat types with a respectable showing by the barmy communist army and the rent-a-mob student types but it isnt a democracy so it doesnt matter tbh. Anyway itd be boring to discuss issues with people who agree with you, wouldnt it? At least this way, individuals on the right have more practise at justifying and defending their views, whereas the majority feel they do not have to ( theyre the majority after all ) and thus are less able to. See the opportunity , where others see a difficulty and all that.

I dont know about the spelling cops tbh - some posters have linkage demanded of them more than others I think despite their claims being no more ludicous than others who go by unchallenged, but thats probably some of my under seige mentality breaking through. In politics especially you do need to prove your claim is more than soapboxing by providing or at least citing a source when asked - or at least admit that you cant find a source, and theyll just have to believe you. Overall I reckon the mods are pretty fair so theres no real grounds for dissent there, they might take Poster A to task for something one week, but next week they could just as easily - and have - taken Poster B to task as well - theres one example recently I could think of but lets not name names.

The quote and retort thing is a necessary evil - if you skip past a point for the sake of brevity then you have posters demanding "why didnt you answer this point!?!?!" Sure it can get repetitive, but I find it better than posts that make general points, assign certain positions to posters without actually backing it up ( see linkage ). And longer posts tend to address issues more, in general. Our FF representitive is the master of the short post but doesnt really provide much more than a summary of the FF press release, so everything has its downside.

As for locking threads - sometimes its the best thing to do, where theres no discussion taking place, just repetition, where people are getting frustrated and tempers are rising.

Boston

Originally posted by Sand
The majority of posters are probably center left/ social democrat types with a respectable showing by the barmy communist army and the rent-a-mob student types but it isnt a democracy so it doesnt matter tbh. Anyway itd be boring to discuss issues with people who agree with you, wouldnt it? At least this way, individuals on the right have more practise at justifying and defending their views, whereas the majority feel they do not have to ( theyre the majority after all ) and thus are less able to. See the opportunity , where others see a difficulty and all that.

The problem is your outlook is politically immature (naive even) by referring to left- and right- wing. bubbles, go read this http://www.politicalcompass.org then come back here and look at me with my bloated ere of self righteous indignation and pompous posturing.

ecksor

Boston, that post made me laugh (still chuckling actually), but if I hadn't seen the original thread on politics I'd probably have banned you for it. I hope you're not letting such a cheap shot bother you.

Anyway, try to keep your gripes with Victor away from here

seamus

If I have to be put in a box, I'd probably say I'd be centre-left. I can see that there are lot more 'left' on Politics, but the majority of the few right-wing people we have are very good at arguing their points, and makes for some very good debates.

There are also those (Corinthian in particular) who do their best to appear neutral, but pick holes in anyone's posts even if the posts directly agree with their own.

The only one issue I would see it is that when a lodmouth right starts a badly-worded, poorly typed, ill-informed thread, he's instantly divebombed from above by the community, but when a loudmouth left does the same, there's no such backlash, and a discussion can even break out.

Boston

Originally posted by ecksor
Boston, that post made me laugh (still chuckling actually), but if I hadn't seen the original thread on politics I'd probably have banned you for it. I hope you're not letting such a cheap shot bother you.

Anyway, try to keep your gripes with Victor away from here

Bothered, moi, naa.

Sand

Yeah Boston, Ive been to that website and had a go so its old news - I think I covered the 3 groups contained there within, the Authoritarian left - barmy communist army, the liberal left, the rent a mob student types and the centrists... the plain old center left/social democrats. Youre right, its so more sophisticated than anything I could ever have dreamt of - it even has its short questionaire with listed acceptable answers to completely define your wide ranging polical views by a scale of 0-10 on two axis. Truly as you say, the height of insightful political analysis.

Out of curiousity, seeing as the whole thread has been throwing around bland terms like left and right from the very beginning of the thread without bring down the wrath of Boston, which definition of the left hit nerve for you?

ecksor

Boston can correct me if I'm wrong here (and I meant to say this in my previouus post) but I don't think he was having a go at you there, more of a sarcastic reaction to a previous post on a different thread.

Boston

Originally posted by ecksor
Boston can correct me if I'm wrong here (and I meant to say this in my previouus post) but I don't think he was having a go at you there, more of a sarcastic reaction to a previous post on a different thread.

I cleared it up with sands by Pm.

The Corinthian

An often clichéd maxim is that “a man who is not a Socialist at 20, has no heart. A man who is still a Socialist at 30, has no brain.” And the former would probably describe the demographics of the Politics board; average age of around 22, in or just graduated from college, middle class, still rebelling against their Roman Catholic education and identifying passionately with an ideological label - even if they do not entirely understand it. They are crusaders rather than philosophers.

Typically left leaning, such a poster will vote Labour, Socialist or even Socialist Workers, while ironically real working class people will vote Sinn Fein. They’ll call someone a Fascist as a term of derision, then go on to agree with another as they describe corporatism as a political system.

Personally, I enjoy the politics board on the basis of argument and debate. I don’t particularly care about most of the topics I’ll debate and in some cases not actually believe in the side I choose to debate on - but it’s a bit of fun and allows me to test my own arguments and often to changes my position and personal beliefs over time. On other occasions it’s just fun to bait people.

Older posters will tend to be more like this as they’re gotten over their Roman Catholic rebellious phase and ideological labels. By the time you hit twenty-five you start to cotton onto the possibility that you may not know everything after all.

Of course, questioning doctrine doesn’t go down well with the young crusaders so you do have to have thick skin when on the Politics board. However, without banning everyone below the age of twenty-five you won’t stop this kind of behaviour - and even then there’s quite a few thirty-year-old teenage rebels out there to fight the good fight - so I’m sorry to say to bug that it’s unlikely to become anymore civilized anytime soon.

Which frankly I don’t mind - idiot baiting is too much fun.




Edit: 'spot' should have read 'stop' in the penultimate paragraph.

ecksor

Fun for you perhaps, but the rest of us have to wade through it.

therecklessone

Originally posted by The Corinthian


Personally, I enjoy the politics board on the basis of argument and debate. I don’t particularly care about most of the topics I’ll debate and in some cases not actually believe in the side I choose to debate on - but it’s a bit of fun and allows me to test my own arguments and often to changes my position and personal beliefs over time. On other occasions it’s just fun to bait people.

The Corinthian in "I am uber-troll" shocker?