Liverpool take 4th!!!

jesus_thats_gre

Happy Days!!!

And to all the doubters!



http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/eng_prem/table/default.stm

zAbbo

a good thing or a bad thing?

mike65

I'm glad and yet.....still hopefully they'll be relaxed and give us all a great end of season game. What happens after that is anyones guess.

Mike.

Johnny_the_fox

im glad too... hopefully there will be alot of changes in the summer including in management

Ronan|Raven

Good to claim 4th bar loosing by 13 goals on Saturday..

Be interesting to see how the bidding war between the Thai PM and Mr Morgan go.. Frankly I feel the man in my sig should be accepted.

eirebhoy

Before the weekend I wanted Villa to get into the CL but I'm happier that Liverpool have got it because they have more Irish players. Finnan will get valuable experience in the champions league. Then you have the extra matches so they'll have to give players more rests therefore Partridge will hopefully get a chance in the premiership. I'd be nearly certain next season is make or break for Partidge, he'll get his chances and I just hope he takes them. I'm praying Liverpool don't buy a right winger for that very reason.

StickyMcGinty

yipppppeeeeee!!!

de-fookin-lighted, hopefully we'll get a good game at the weekend though!!

now to toddle off and get my champions league badges for my new home jersey....

redspider

Although Liverpool aren't officially 4th yet, there is an impossible(!) chance that
their 12 goal difference ahead of Villa will be turned over.

Yeah, its been lucky for Liverpool that Newcastle have had a really bad season. Things have been going wrong for them so much. Its hard to believe that they've had so many draws with 16 - they haven't lost so many.

I was surprised by the number of player problems they've had. It looks as if Bobby has lost control of the plaers. Even having Robert and Viana coming out today saying they are looking forward to a move at the end of the season. Changes are inevitable.

Now, with Liverpool in 4th, the bidding war can conclude. I think that it would be a good time to move Houllier on, give a new manager a chance in the CL, perhaps to sell a few players, and get in a few more. I cant see Liverpool spending large amounts but they should perhaps buy a central defender and a forward (if Heskey is sold).

Overall, 4th this year was crucial for the monetary benefits it can bring. Two years missing the CL is a disaster and probably would have made Owen leave. Instead of Liverpool fans having a solemn summer, there is now something next year to look forward to.

JippoKelly

Originally posted by VinnyL

now to toddle off and get my champions league badges for my new home jersey....

I'd wait a while. Liverpool haven't qualified for the CL groups stages yet! What if they did what Newcastle did last year?!

It is great news though. Let's hope Morgan's bid is successful and Mr. H is shown the door so a new manager can take Liverpool to the group stages and hopefully beyond.

Jivin Turkey

Originally posted by redspider
Although Liverpool aren't officially 4th yet, there is an impossible(!) chance that
their 12 goal difference ahead of Villa will be turned over.

Yeah, its been lucky for Liverpool that Newcastle have had a really bad season. Things have been going wrong for them so much. Its hard to believe that they've had so many draws with 16 - they haven't lost so many.

I was surprised by the number of player problems they've had. It looks as if Bobby has lost control of the plaers. Even having Robert and Viana coming out today saying they are looking forward to a move at the end of the season. Changes are inevitable.

Now, with Liverpool in 4th, the bidding war can conclude.

Liverpool are fourth, any person with half a brain will agree.

And they werent lucky, Im not saying they were great, but they were definately the best of a bad bunch. Newcastle definately dont deserve it having only won 2 games away from home out of 18.

Robson hasnt lost control, Robert is giving out but he has always been tempramental, they still have Speed, Jenas, Dyer, and a finally interested again Bowyer in midfield, hardly a bunch of monkeys. Viana is poor and Newcastle should try and recoup some of the cash they shelled out on him.

The bidding war can conclude? What does that mean?

With any luck Morgan will buy his stake and oust Moores, ringing the changes from the fans perspective (seeing as he is one), and with a bit of luck it will be bye bye Gerrard!

Washout

Does this mean Gerard Houllier stays for another season then

leeroybrown

It does look like Houllier will be there next season. Right now the only way I see him going is a dramatic change of mind on the part of Moores or Morgan, who wants Houllier gone, having enough leverage (and he'd only be a shareholder) to force a change. Perhaps one of the stumbling blocks in his investment plan is the management issue.

NightStrike

Yeah he'll more than likely stay now. It was a catch 22 situation really. They get it he stays, they don't he goes.

Just looking at that table wow bolton have had a good year. Could still finish fifth too.

Villain

Told ya so!

Not surprised at all really, although I thought Newcastle would have at least brought it to the last day of the season.

I can't believe Villa have it in their own hands to get 5th, amazing giving our start to the season.

johnor

WAs liverpools best season the same season that Houllier was in hospital? CAnt remember what season that was....just thought of it there...pool fans answers on a postcard.

uberwolf

if Morgans bid is accepted Houllier is gone, Thai dude he stays IMO. Yay 4th

EKRIUQ

Newcastle for 4th What a joke
Only 2 away wins all season they practicly gave the spot to Liverpool.

redspider

To Jivin Turkey:

You are indeed a bit of a turkey. More sense is spoken by Dustin!

>> Although Liverpool aren't officially 4th yet, there is an impossible(!) chance that
their 12 goal difference ahead of Villa will be turned over.

> Liverpool are fourth, any person with half a brain will agree

Read the sentence again. Liverpool are NOT officially 4th yet. If Liverpool lose 6-0 and Villa win 7-0, Liverpool are NOT 4th. Fact. That as I said is very unlikely (impossible(!) chance) to happen. Read and try to understand before you respond with “half a brain” comments. Its clear who was using only half their turkey brain.

> And they werent lucky

Yes, Liverpool were. Out of the last 5 seasons, it took at least 67 pts to get 4th place and this year Liverpool will be well below that – Liverpool currently have 59. Liverpool were lucky as so many teams played equally badly, and Liverpool were slightly better than the bunch, only very slightly.

> Robson hasnt lost control, Robert is giving out but he has always been tempramental, they still have Speed, Jenas, Dyer, and a finally interested again Bowyer in midfield, hardly a bunch of monkeys. Viana is poor and Newcastle should try and recoup some of the cash they shelled out on him.


I give Bobby Robson a lot of credit for what he has done. But this season the team spirit has faltered. There were “issues” with Bellamy and Shearer. Solano was so imbitterred that he left and took a pay cut. Robert, also one of their best players and motivated at the start of the season, went off the rails ad was dropped. Something (or things?) definitely happened at Newcastle this season as all was not right in the camp. Bobby was dropping players not because they weren’t good enough or were injured but because of other “issues”.


> The bidding war can conclude? What does that mean?

The bidding war between Morgan and the Thai PM-led bid that we all have been hearing about.


I don’t normally resort to flaming back but I thought you should at least know my position.

Keep jivin ...

Villain

Originally posted by redspider
To Jivin Turkey:
You are indeed a bit of a turkey. More sense is spoken by Dustin!

redspider, the majority of your posts are quite good.

But theres no need for personal insults.

Liverpool have been the better of all teh other teams below 3rd spot, quite simple really.

mr_angry

Comiserations to Liverpool on achieving 4th place. They did their best to avoid it all season, but in the end, Newcastle just wanted it less.

Seriously though, does England deserve to have their 4th place team represent them in Europe after a season like that? I'd be sceptical...

Kone

Being a pool fan I am obviously happy that we got the last spot but I have to ask the question - are we good enough to play with Europes best? I don't think so.

kida

Seriously though, does England deserve to have their 4th place team represent them in Europe after a season like that? I'd be sceptical...

I tend to agree - you should have to finish within a certain % of 1st/2nd to qualify, the same would apply in Scotland where Rangers are a proverbial mile behind Celtic. The points differences suggests that they are not good enough to make Europes Elite competition.

But theres no need for personal insults.

I sense the first ban coming!!(for RedSpider that is)

Dont be at yourself

I sense the first ban coming!!(for RedSpider that is)

Don't be ridiculous. His post was positively subdued, and where he did rise to personal attacks (and I'd really struggle to call them that), it was much in the same vein as the poster he was replying to. RedSpider's posts are usually well received around here, and I'm sure I wouldn't be the only one to miss his posts, should he banned.

Anyway: Liverpool 4th. Thank God for that, I can now sit down and enjoy the hopefully entertaining game at the weekend without chewing my fingers off with nerves. Hopefully it'll spur Owen on to sign a new contract, and hopefully keep Houllier in the job too.

Villain

Originally posted by NekkidBibleMan
Don't be ridiculous. His post was positively subdued, and where he did rise to personal attacks (and I'd really struggle to call them that), it was much in the same vein as the poster he was replying to. RedSpider's posts are usually well received around here, and I'm sure I wouldn't be the only one to miss his posts, should he banned.

Anyway: Liverpool 4th. Thank God for that, I can now sit down and enjoy the hopefully entertaining game at the weekend without chewing my fingers off with nerves. Hopefully it'll spur Owen on to sign a new contract, and hopefully keep Houllier in the job too.

He posted

To Jivin Turkey:
You are indeed a bit of a turkey. More sense is spoken by Dustin!

Which was not needed.

Anyway you said

and hopefully keep Houllier in the job too.

I think your the first pool fan I've heard say that, why do you want him to stay, he has spent 120 million already and things weren't great this season were they?

eirebhoy

Originally posted by kida
I sense the first ban coming!!(for RedSpider that is)

Redspider is probably the most sensible poster on the soccer forum and if he gets banned for a little bit of "jeering" I will be shocked. Jivin Turkey misread his post, if he read it correctly Redspider wouldn't have resorted to insults.

egan007

Originally posted by Kone
Being a pool fan I am obviously happy that we got the last spot but I have to ask the question - are we good enough to play with Europes best? I don't think so.

pool fan too...
I agree to a point, and i know we are very poor at the moment, but there are worse teams than liverpool in next years CL
with the inclusion of 4th and 3rd in most leagues in the CL it's not always a concentration of europes best

Space Coyote

Originally posted by NekkidBibleMan
Hopefully it'll spur Owen on to sign a new contract, and hopefully keep Houllier in the job too.

NBM, it puzzles me greatly that some 'pool fans can defend GH so much. I personally cannot stand the guy, and have wanted to see the back of him for quite a long time. A couple of my mates continue to defend him, but their reasons are nonsensical at best imo. "But he won 5 cups blah blah blah". As far as I'm concerned it's the league title that comes first, Champions League 2nd, and anything else after that is for show. GH had a 5 year plan (according to himself). That plan, whatever it was, evaporated last season, when we finished 16 points worse off than the previous season! According to GH that was just a glitch. This season we are guaranteed to finish with even less points. Ok, we got the 4th spot, I'm delighted, but I fail to see how anybody can assume next season's form under GH will dramatically improve on this and last season, even if he does bring new recruits.

I'm curious to know your reasons for wanting him there next season...

eirebhoy

Space Coyote - The ManU fans said the same about Fergie after his first 6/7 years a the club, look what he has achieved.

Dont be at yourself

I have great admiration for Houllier. He's man who genuinely seems to love the club, so much so that he risked his health for success. And not being old enough to remember the great Liverpool teams and successes of decades gone by, the year we won the UEFA Cup etc. was the first time Liverpool had ever really achieved anything of note since I can remember. And it was an achievement - we beat top class teams along the way.

Bad managers don't win every single knockout competition they enter, as well as finish second in the Premier League (with enough points to have finished first most other years), certainly not all in the same season. It's no wonder the players played poorly the following season, after the mammoth number of fixtures they had that season.

And yes, we've had two disappointing seasons, but I'm hopeful that next season won't be as disappointing. Houllier has already addressed the attacking problems of our side (with Kewell, Cissé, and no doubt another addition or two in the summer) and by the rumours, his number one aim is to sort out our ageing defence. Should he do that (and it won't take an awful lot to do, two or three more signings at most) and we can really challenge for the title.

Also, while he's spent a lot of money, he's recouped over half of it - which is more than can be said for a lot of teams. And he does have an incredible eye for talent, with La Tellac, Pongolle, Baros proving good buys. For every Traore and Biscan, remember that he's also brought a lot of quality to our side. Kewell, Hamann, Finnan, Riise, Hyppia, Henchoz... these are top class players, and mostly purchased for far less than they were worth.

Also remember, Alex Ferguson bought Karl Poborsky and Jordi Cruyff.

jonno

Originally posted by irish1

I think your the first pool fan I've heard say that, why do you want him to stay, he has spent 120 million already and things weren't great this season were they?

Technically he has spent 120 million but he has also recouped 50-60 million of that on transfers out which puts his spending to about 60-70 million if I am not mistaken

egan007

Alot of pro and anti houllier here.....
I'm on the fence, i want him to go because i want to see liverpool win. I want him to say because i recognise that he has done alot and i believe he actually loves liverpool.

I'm interested to know from people who want him to go - will you change your mind if he has a fab season next year? I.e league win &/ good CL finish?

Use as a hypothetical situation - no answers like "it's not gona happen" I'm asking IF ......answers please

The Rooster

They did their best to avoid it all season, but in the end, Newcastle just wanted it less.

Bang on Mr Angry!

Other than the top 3 the standard has been very poor this year - and even Chelsea and the mancs have had a good few very bad days.

Liverpool are 28 points behind Arsenal who are top.

Liverpool are 26 points ahead of Leeds who are bottom.

So it is true to say they are closer to bottom than top, and its goina do my head in to hear Houllier going on about how well he's done this year and how he achieved his objectives.

Its been a purely pathetic performance by Liverpool over the course of the season, and its just pure and utter luck that the rest of the teams were just as bad / even worse. It would be a disgrace if Houllier kept his job after such a poor season - especially as it followed a poor season.


The year Liverpool finished second was the year Houllier was out sick for most of it. Though many would argue the previous year was more successful given they won the treble and finished 3rd. One thing for sure is that its all gone downhill since Houllier regained the hotseat.

PS Don't ban redspider!

Space Coyote

originally posted by NBM
...he does have an incredible eye for talent, with La Tellac, Pongolle, Baros proving good buys. For every Traore and Biscan, remember that he's also brought a lot of quality to our side.

No no no no no! That is the problem, GH has brought in way more rubbish players than quality players. See below...
Houllier's signings
Jean-Michel Ferri: £1.7million from Istanbulspor - December 1998
Who? Exactly. Houllier brought this defensive midfielder to Anfield as his first signing. He picked up an injury shortly after his arrival from Turkey, but even when fit he looked well short of the required quality. The French international made only two substitute appearances, in defeats at Chelsea and Sheffield Wednesday, before being shipped to French side Sochaux in the summer.

Rigobert Song: £2.6million from Salernitana - January 1999
Song came to Anfield from Italy with a good reputation as a solid defender and was a fixture in the Cameroon side. He began well and became something of a cult hero on the Kop. But Houllier insisted in playing Song at right-back rather than in his favoured position in the centre of defence. Song played just 38 games for Liverpool before they almost recouped the transfer fee when he was sold to West Ham in November 2000. He was shocking for West Ham and is now in Ligue 1 with RC Lens.

Frodde Kippe: £700,000 from Lillestrom - January 1999
This Norwegian defender was heralded as a real star of the future when he moved to Liverpool - the Reds had pulled off a real coup in securing his services. Rather than being a Kippe, he was more of a red herring. He made just two substitute appearances for Liverpool in the League Cup before twice being loaned out to Stoke City. He left the club a year ago to return to Lillestrom for a nominal fee.

Djimi Traore: £550,000 from Laval - February 1999
This is an interesting one. Signed ahead of interest from AC Milan, Paris St Germain and Lazio, Liverpool can consider themselves to have got value for money on the transfer fee. Traore has been a fixture in the starting eleven this term after spending most of the 2001/02 campaign on loan at RC Lens. However, Traore looks anything but the real deal and Liverpool would be unlikely to win the championship with him in their defence. The French player has now made 59 appearances for the Reds.

Sami Hyypia: £2.6million from Willem II - May 1999
Hyypia will almost certainly go down as Houllier's best signing, a snip at £2.6m from Dutch side Willem II. A superb, assured defender and a commanding presence, the Finnish international would slot into probably any defence in the Premiership. Houllier handed him the club captaincy a year ago, and he has now played over 200 games for the Reds.

Stephane Henchoz: £3.5million from Blackburn - June 1999
Henchoz was rescued from life in the Football League by Houllier after Blackburn dropped out of the Premiership, and he soon forged a superb partnership at the heart of the defence with Hyypia. Henchoz has been worth every penny in his 174 games for the club - with the added extra of a few cheeky handballs when the officials aren't looking!

Sander Westerveld: £4million from Vitesse Arnhem - June 1999
Westerveld may have been Houllier's number one at Anfield for two seasons, but he was prone to errors - in keeping with the great tradition of Liverpool goalkeepers! Houllier made him the most expensive goalkeeper in British football when signing him from Holland, a tag he certainly failed to live up to. Although he certainly had ability, he came over-priced after the gaffe which led to defeat at Bolton in August 2001 was the final straw and he was sold to Real Soceidad.

Titi Camara: £2.6million from Marseille - June 1999
After a half decent first season at Anfield, in which he scored ten goals and only trailed Michael Owen in the club's scoring charts, Camara was discarded by Houllier after 18 months. West Ham again came to the rescue by giving Liverpool most of their money back, playing only 11 Premiership games for the Hammers before being loaned out to Al-Ittihad in January.

Vladimir Smicer: £4.2million from RC Lens - July 1999
An incredible fee for a player of such limited ability, Houllier had hardly found the replacement for Steve McManaman. But Smicer remains a manager's favourite and is invariably in the 16 on a matchday. Smicer has many critics on the terraces, but he still earned a new three-year contract last summer and now, remarkably, has played 142 games for the club.

Erik Meijer: Free from Bayer Leverkusen - July 1999
Liverpool fans can only be pleased this misfit striker didn't cost any money, because he was a complete failure in his 17-month spell at Anfield. The Dutch player scored just two League Cup goals in a total of 26 appearances before being loaned out to Preston North End, where he scored no goals in nine games, and then released to join German side SV Hamburg.

Dietmar Hamann: £8million from Newcastle - July 1999
The final signing of a £25million summer transfer frenzy for Houllier, Hamann has been a valuable player since making the move from Tyneside. But at £8million, then a club record, the German international was probably over-priced for a defensive midfielder.

Emile Heskey: £11million from Leicester - March 2000
At the time this transfer was the worst kept secret in English football. After netting 22 goal in his first full season at the club, Heskey has struggled. A fee of £11m for a striker who doesn't score goals is excessive to say the least, although the player has suffered from being played out wide at times. The England international has scored just six Premiership goals this season.

Bernard Diomede: £3million from Auxerre - July 2000
Another mystery name with a big price tag, Diomede has a World Cup winners' medal from France '98, you know. But he is now back home with relegation candidates AC Ajaccio after being loaned out in January. The French winger has played just five games for Liverpool, only two of those in the Premiership.

Markus Babbel: Free from Bayern Munich - July 2000
Houllier was very unlucky with Babbel. The German veteran had a fine first season at Anfield, but was then sidelined after developing Guillan-Barre Syndrome. This affects the central nervous system and means you are unable to use your limbs properly. He did make an emotional return in the Community Shield in August but is yet to play this year.

Gary McAllister: Free from Coventry City - July 2000
McAllister was a superb Bosman capture by Houllier. Although used as a substitute for much of the time, his goals were priceless as Reds picked up five trophies in 2001. The lure of the manager's job at Coventry proved too strong last year, and Liverpool have failed to replace his experience and guile in the centre of the park.

Pegguy Arphexad: Free from Leicester City - July 2000
Signed as a back-up keeper and, despite a brief loan spell with Stockport County, first team football continues to elude him.

Nick Barmby: £6million from Everton - July 2000
Barmby's move across Stanley Park caused a storm at the time, but his two years at Anfield were barely worth the bother. After a useful first season a combination of injuries and Houllier's selection policy limited his involvement and last summer he joined Leeds United, at almost a third of the cost.

.....

Space Coyote

.....contd

Gregory Vignal: £500,000 from Montpellier - September 2000
Despite getting a few first team games under his belt over the course of the last two years and looking a useful player, Houllier cast him aside at the beginning of the season. Vignal is now out on loan in France with Bastia.

Christian Ziege: £5.5million from Middlesbrough - September 2000
For all the trouble this caused, Ziege was effectively a waste money. The two clubs are still arguing about the way in which Liverpool went about luring the player to Anfield. Ziege started just 11 Premiership games before being sold to Spurs after just one season.

Daniel Sjolund: £1million from West Ham - November 2000
The Finland Under-21 international was signed as a player for the future but has failed to make the grade, and is now on loan at Djurgarden until the end of the season.

Igor Biscan: £5.5million from Dinamo Zagreb - December 2000
How much! Biscan must be one of the worst players ever to turn out for a club of Liverpool's stature; in fact he would struggle to make a impression in the First Division. Houllier paid a ludicrous amount of money for the Croatian defender/midfielder. Biscan has made 23 Premiership appearances in almost two-and-a-half years.

Jari Litmanen: Free from Barcelona - January 2001
Criminally underused by Houllier, Litmanen could have contributed so much more to a Liverpool side that has often looked short of a creative influence. The Finnish striker returned to former club Ajax after making only 12 Premiership starts.

John Arne Riise: £4.6million from Monaco - June 2001
Leeds United must wish they had stumped up the cash for the player when they had the chance a year earlier, as Riise has taken to the Premiership with great aplomb. A pacy, skilful wing-back or midfielder, Riise has lived up to his price tag in a big way. He was strangely underused at the start of the season but is now a firm fixture in the side.

Milan Baros: £3million from Banik Ostrava - August 2001
It could prove to be an astute piece of business by Houllier, although he lost a whole year as the old rules on non-EU players meant he couldn't get into the first team squad. Looks a lively player and should develop into a top striker, given time.

Jerzy Dudek: £4.85million from Feyenoord - August 2001
Signed to replace Sander Westerveld, Dudek had a brilliant first season, but started this term badly and was to blame for a number of goals - most notably the opener in a 2-1 defeat to arch rivals Manchester United. He is only back in the side due to Chris Kirkland's injury but looks to be getting back to his best.

Chris Kirkland: £6million from Coventry - August 2001
After paying such a lot of money for a back-up goalkeeper, Kirkland was handed his chance due to Dudek's inept performances. However, a cruciate ligament injury sustained at the start of the year put him out of action. Houllier spent nearly £11million on two goalkeepers on the same day - completely unnecessary and it was almost as if he was trying to stop any of his rivals signing Kirkland.

Nicolas Anelka: On loan from Paris Saint Germain - December 2001
Eyebrows were raised when Houllier opted to against making his loan move permanent, and Anelka himself was far from happy. The French striker was never prolific during his six-month stay, but it was thought he'd done enough after netting five goals. Instead, Houllier turn to El Hadji Diouf.

Abel Xavier: £800,000 from Everton - February 2002
Again a transfer that surprised many, but a good start was the limit of his contribution to the side. Xavier played just 21 games for Liverpool before being loaned to Galatasaray in January. It's hard to see him returning to Liverpool to battle for a place in the team - more money wasted.

El Hadji Diouf: £10million from RC Lens - June 2002
Houllier signed the Senegal striker at the start of the World Cup, and although he would go on to be named in FIFA's team of the tournament he has looked a poor acquisition. The striker has scored only three Premiership goals in 24 appearances for the club, although he has been played out wide at times. He has a lot to do to justify the fee.

Bruno Cheyrou: £3.7million from Lille - July 2002
Cheyrou has been very inconspicuous since his summer move, featuring in 25 games this term. He looks as though he may benefit from a year in the Premiership and come back stronger in the new campaign. The jury is very much still out and the price tag looks a little large right now.

Alou Diarra: Free from Bayern Munich - July 2002
Diarra was loaned out to Le Havre almost as soon he'd joined Liverpool, and as such remains an unknown quantity in the English game.

Patrice Luzi: Free from Monaco - August 2002
A young goalkeeper signed for the future who has yet to feature - currently fourth in the pecking order at the club.

Salif Diao: £5million from Sedan - August 2002
Again, Houllier has broken the bank for a player of limited ability. Although he did start his Anfield career promisingly, he has tailed off in the latter part of the season and looks to be out of his depth at this level.

uberwolf

TBH I don't read much into the recouped figures. Fact is he has spent 120 million on players and the team is getting worse. If you look back Roy Evans would always have qualified for the CL under current rules. The money he recouped was for players he didn't want.

As for being a talent spotter maybe, he has brought good players in. But what has he done with them? They don't play, Baros on the bench?

jonno

GH was brought in to rebuild a team that was fairly stagnant albeit finishing consistantly in the top four under Roy Evans. But that is all it was doing. There wasn't much hope of it finishing as winners of the much coveted League title. The squad at the time was either getting old or just not up for the task of winning the league.

For example:
David James in goal was very inconsistant. Granted he has turned into a fine keeper but his time at Liverpool showed up alot of mistakes that were occuring week in week out.

In defence you had players like Steve Harkness, John Scales (who wasn't that solid), Phil Babb who cleaned up after Scales, Bjornebye who was solid but not showing much promise, Kvarme who was brutal, Mark Wright and Steve Staunton who were pushing on a bit and Dominic Matteo who was having a similar experience to David James.

The midfield was made up of Leonhardsen, Cassidy and McAteer and neither of the three are exactly league champions material. The only source of promise came from Redknapp, Murphy and Steve Macca.

Up front was probably where the team at the time got its results from. Fowler, Collymore, Owen, Berger and Reidle were all scoring and bringing in the results for a team that relied on the 3-5-2 system because of the lack of decent defenders and they had a failry attacking midfield that could supply the goods.

Fast forward two seasons and we have Gerard Houllier in sole charge. He was given the job of turning the then stationary team into English champions. A big ask - which led to the five year plan. Now the five year plan hasn't worked and at times I myself have asked for Ged's head but the fact of the matter is that he has practically rebuilt the squad from scratch with the exception of Owen, Murphy and Carragher who are still around. It was Ged that gave Stevie G his chance in the first team as well. Along with that he was given the money to recruit. Now I don't have a clue how hard it could be to do a job like this but he set about doing it. Granted he has made his mistakes in the market and bought some dud players. But as far as I am concerned he has built the foundation for a decent squad. Obviously it ain't the finished article yet but IMHO I think there are only a few more steps to making the squad successful.

First of all the only players I can't see much of a future for are:
- Igor Biscan,

- Emile Heskey,

- El-Hadji Diouf,

- Vladamir Smicer,

- Stephane Henchoz,

- Dietmar Hamman and

- Markus Babbel (although I would like to see him given another chance).

The players that Space Coyote's post mentioned as dud players that I can see a future for are:

- Djimi Traore (needs a chance at centre half to progress. Has been solid everytime
he was on the pitch this season and that was in his least favoured position)

- Bruno Cheryou (his runs in the first team this year will do him good)

- Salif Diao (has only played a few games where he should be played and has looked good there)

- Alou Diarra

- Patrice Luzi (who is actaully third in the pecking order at the club despite what might have been said on that website. Every club needs three keepers IMO.Paul Harrsion is the fourth choice keeper.)

Finally GH may have spent 120 million but as I said earlier he has recouped 60-70 (around half of that). Of that list 18 of the 33 have departed. A quick calculation shows that he has got rid of approx half of the players which would kind of cancel each other out. Also he has added Le Tallac, FloPo, Finnan and Kewell to the list for approx 15 million and each of those have big furtures at the club.

So that is why I still don't slate Houllier. He has rebuilt Roy Evans' team into a very solid foundation for the championship, won more than Roy Evans in terms of Silverware (albeit worthless trophies as far as most people are concerned). He deserves credit for what he has done. If he is sacked or resigns he will go down in history for building the foundation of a great team.

That is all

kamobe

A few harsh words have been said about Newcastle and Bobby Robson. In fairness, out of all the teams in the top 5/6, they have been hit the hardest with injury. The backbone of their side has been taken away, and no team (including Arsenal) can perform without four or five first team regulars week in week out.

I'm a Liverpool supporter myself, and I'm happy to see the reds in the CL next year. Houllier is REALLY annoying me though. If he spends another £30 million on tripe, not only will he be hurting us next season, but he'll be condemning us to 4th and 5th place battles for the next few seasons. Liverpool aren't quite rich enough to be splashing out that kinda money with no returns.

Space Coyote

I don't disagree that GH started off well. His first priority was to sort out the defense which he did extremely well by bringing in Henchoz and Hyypia, and Westerveld, who was a very good keeper. He made about as many mistakes as Cudicini did this season. Our defensive record was solid once they bedded into the side. GH also got rid of a lot of dead wood as jonno pointed out. GH had us playing in a counter-attacking way that infuriated other sides, but it was effective. It got us results. But that didn't last, there was no progression from there. GH's tactics were too easily exploited, the team relied too much on Michael Owen's pace. There were no alternatives because GH coul not come up with any. He bought and sold players, chopped and changed the first team almost every game. He did not have the answers the dip in form. He still doesn't. Players like Barmby, Diomede, Meijer and Camara were bought and sold in a short space of time. Now GH is doing it again. Diao, Diouf and Cheyrou, very expensive yet extremely ineffective, will probably be sold on after less than two years at the club. GH has built the guts of a very good side, but he just does not have the vision to bring us to the next level. That is plainly obvious in my opinion, and it has been for a year and a half. Bring in Steve Morgan, say bye bye to Gerard Houllier. Thanks for the memories. Au revoir.

[edit]I've just read the other thread and looks like Morgan's bid has been turned down. I presume he will pull out now, leaving Thaksin (the Man Utd fan) to ruin the club. I'm off to cry. [/edit]

mike65

First of all the only players I can't see much of a future for are:
- Igor Biscan,

- Emile Heskey,

- El-Hadji Diouf,

- Vladamir Smicer,

- Stephane Henchoz,

- Dietmar Hamman and

- Markus Babbel

I'd keep all except Biscan and Diouf (unless he was turned into a proper striker)

Djimi Traore (needs a chance at centre half to progress. Has been solid everytime
he was on the pitch this season and that was in his least favoured position)

- Bruno Cheryou (his runs in the first team this year will do him good)

- Salif Diao (has only played a few games where he should be played and has looked good there)

- Alou Diarra

- Patrice Luzi (who is actaully third in the pecking order at the club despite what might have been said on that website. Every club needs three keepers IMO.Paul Harrsion is the fourth choice keeper.

I'd shift Diao, Cheyrou and Traore in double quick time!

Mike.

Jivin Turkey

Glad you responded Redspider

"Read the sentence again. Liverpool are NOT officially 4th yet. If Liverpool lose 6-0 and Villa win 7-0, Liverpool are NOT 4th. Fact. That as I said is very unlikely (impossible(!) chance) to happen. Read and try to understand before you respond with “half a brain” comments. Its clear who was using only half their turkey brain."

You say something like this, if I may use some of your own reasoning, then I say Arsenal arent officially the champions. There is a "very unlikely (impossible chance)" that they might be drawn into a brawl in their last game and get docked 20 points. Liverpool are fourth. Im sorry.

"Yes, Liverpool were. Out of the last 5 seasons, it took at least 67 pts to get 4th place and this year Liverpool will be well below that – Liverpool currently have 59. Liverpool were lucky as so many teams played equally badly, and Liverpool were slightly better than the bunch, only very slightly."

Liverpool werent lucky at all! If they were somewhat close to 3rd they would be lucky. But look at the teams challenging with them for 4th. Newcastle, only 2 away wins all year. Villa, much improved but an awful start. Liverpool havnt been outside fourth or fifth since october (bar maybe one week). They have there or there abouts all season and never looked like losing their grip on it. To say they were lucky is ludicrous! It was always between Liverpool and Newcastle. Liverpool just turned out to be the best of a bad bunch, they have been all year (not that Im proud), its not luck.

"I give Bobby Robson a lot of credit for what he has done. But this season the team spirit has faltered. There were “issues” with Bellamy and Shearer. Solano was so imbitterred that he left and took a pay cut. Robert, also one of their best players and motivated at the start of the season, went off the rails ad was dropped. Something (or things?) definitely happened at Newcastle this season as all was not right in the camp. Bobby was dropping players not because they weren’t good enough or were injured but because of other “issues”."

Newcastle have been crippled with injuries all year. Woodgate, Dyer, Jenas, Bellamy, Bowyer, Bridges, that is why they have faltered. There have been a few "issues", but they have been handled impecably. There is no mention of the "roasting scandal" anymore. The only reason they arent coming to anfield with a chance of CL football, is because they have been missing their 2 first choice centre backs for the last 3 games! How would Arsenal do without Toure and Campbell? Look at United without Ferdinand! They also got to the semis of the UEFA cup. They were very unlucky not to win on Sunday, and again last night. That would put them level with Liverpool. Players like Solano was not happy about not being in the team, so he left. There are better players there to replace him.

Sorry to go off on a rant but I want to clear up my points. Its good to see you putting up some decent ones too, instead of pages of writing (I apologise for mine, it had to be with all the quotes) just stating the current situation and all the possibilities.

As for people wanting to keep Houllier! No way! Liverpool "achieved" fourth position this year, fifth last year. Houllier is in the process of cleaning out the second team he has built at the club. It is not good enough for a "big" club. People (who actually make the decisions at the club) settling for this mediocrity have liverpool where they are today.

johnor

I reckon take this kinda stuff to PM's..... anyway, As a manu fan im glad that liverpool got 4th, Houllier will stay now ......otherwise they might have got someone good to spend this 50/60 million. I reckon Cheyrou will turn into a decent player too, Himself and babbel should stay imo. I think GH went wrong by calling him the next zidane when he joined....He seems as if he doesnt have the ability to bring these young talents on into the first team....Strange cos he did alot of work in that french camp thing....I reckon his problem is more in that line, he buys young players with alot of potential and turns them into average players...I dont think he is a great motivator....defo not the manager liverpool need. I think liverpool will have a better season next season, dunno if that means moving up the table or just getting more points...they wont win the league which begs the question why give him anther season?

redspider

To Jivin Turkey:

Good to see that we can discuss this without flaming (other posters mentioned the “b” word ;-) ).

> … then I say Arsenal arent officially the champions. There is a "very unlikely (impossible chance)" that they might be drawn into a brawl in their last game and get docked 20 points. Liverpool are fourth. Im sorry.

Well, I’m not sure what the FA’s maximum point docking rules are but the chances of your scenario happening is more unlikely than Liverpool’s turnover. Both are very very unlikely. I am sure that Liverpool are 4th, that’s what I said, the turnover wont happen. As we were in agreement on this there was little reason for you to “name call”. I’m over it - and I’m glad that Liverpool are 4th.


> Liverpool werent lucky at all! …. To say they were lucky is ludicrous!
> Newcastle have been crippled with injuries all year .. They were very unlucky not to win on Sunday, and again last night.

Interesting points of argument here. So, you are saying that Newcastle are unlucky. I agree with that. Now follow the logic - since the beneficiary of Newcastle’s bad luck is Liverpool, doesn’t that mean by definition of luck that Liverpool are indeed lucky? Luck is a balanced concept – if for example two teams play a close game and one team scores the winner in the 94th minute, the winner is lucky and the loser is unlucky. I see other posters have mentioned the lucky aspect as well. I don’t know what a poll would show or if you are willing to concede on this point. If you don’t, we can agree to disagree I guess.


> Liverpool havnt been outside fourth or fifth all season and never looked like losing their grip on it

I would think that your opinion on this is very much in the minority. Yes, Liverpool have been around the 4th, 5th, 6th mark in the finishing months. However, at the 10-game stage Liverpool were 10th on 14 pts. Saying that they never looked like losing their grip on it is really looking at the season with rose-tinted glasses. They never created a gap between 4th and 5th in terms of points so it was nip and tuck the whole way. Liverpool could have easily finished outside the top-4.


> Sorry to go off on a rant but I want to clear up my points.

Rants are fine, rant away – but flaming is off-side. I shouldn’t have risen to the "bait".


There are some good points mentioned in a lot of postings on this thread, which I hope to get back to at a later time.

I agree with you JT about Houllier! His time should be called to a halt and now is the perfect time. Much better to do it when we are in the CL so that we can attract a good manager and attract good players. Re-building from a position further down is much more difficult. As I’ve mentioned before, Houllier got Liverpool from a low point (7th, 54 pts) and took them higher (4th 67, 3rd 69, 2nd 80 pts) and the club did progress (eg: in CL) and have success in cups. But I haven’t been happy with his comments and management in recent years and the progress has stalled for 2 seasons (5th 64 pts, 4th 59-62 pts). Houllier has been given his chance imo. It will take a new manager to take Liverpool higher but getting that new manager may not be easy. The kafuffle in terms of Liverpool ownership isn’t helping with the direction of the managerial position.

The Rooster

The luck point depends on what angle you are looking at, and redspider and jivinturkey are looking at it from different angles.

IMO:

Liverpool deserved to finish ahead of Newcastle, Aston Villa etc. - No luck involved.

However Liverpool were indeed very lucky in the fact that despite being pathetic for most of the season, Newcastle, Aston Villa and the rest were even worse. Closer to finishing bottom and getting relegated than winning the championship, and still end up in the Champions League. Mad!

Thanx 4 The Fish

Is the fact that Newcastle finished so badly after loosing key players down to Sir Bob's inability to maintain a large squad then ? Liverpool suffered from injury problems at the outset of the season but nobody is here saying that the only reason that Liverpool didn't do better is because of their injuries, which is I feel a bit of an injustice. Houllier while doing a bad job for the last couple of seasons has won more at L'pool than sir Bob has at Newcastle and yet there are not as many people calling for the head of sir bobby. Now I know that Liverpool are a succesful club and people want to see that success perpetuated continuously but as it is Liverpool haven't done it, does that mean a clear out of players and the manager which may cause upset to the team and possibly leave us with another barren season or work with what we have and build on it. I am not a manager nor do I work on the board of any major club but in my opinion the upheaval of the all change approach could be more detrimental to Liverpools next season than anything. Liverpool may or may not get rid of Houllier this season but if they do not then it will not be that huge a let down.

Let's face it, so far this season Liverpool have come away with as much as Man U, and if the pool get in the Cl proper then as much as Chelsea with all of their millions too.

johnor

What about the FA cup?, dont think manu's season has been equal to liverpools season...Man u were playin in the CL, they would have recieved alot of money from that....Fa cup final, chance to win arguably the best domestic cup competition....I think comparing liverpool to man u and chelsea is a bit silly, chelsea and united can build to their current squad with a view to challenging for the league next year, where as liverpool willbe challenging for the 4th spot again....Even with teh influx of 60m...Cant buy the type of players/number of those players that liverpool need with that money....

kida

Newcastles team didn't make CL proper last year.
Newcastles team has declined dramatically this year.
Liverpool barely edged out Newcastle for CL qualifier place.

Draw your own conclusions - all Liverpool have done is made the qualifier.

jonno

Originally posted by johnor
Even with teh influx of 60m...Cant buy the type of players/number of those players that liverpool need with that money....

Just for the record how many players do you think Liverpool need? IMO all they need is a right midfielder, a 20 goal-a-season striker and a quick centre back to partner Sami or Carra. 60million would easily cover that. There is also a large squad of players in place with some youth players itching to get a chance.

Dont be at yourself

Originally posted by jonno
Just for the record how many players do you think Liverpool need? IMO all they need is a right midfielder, a 20 goal-a-season striker and a quick centre back to partner Sami or Carra. 60million would easily cover that. There is also a large squad of players in place with some youth players itching to get a chance.

We hopefully have the 20-goal-a-season striker in Cissé/Baros. I'd agree with the centre-back (Dawson or Mexes, I'll take either!). I'd like Partridge to be given a chance on the right, but it's certainly a problem area for us at the moment. I'd also want to see a quality central midfielder brought in, Hamann won't be around forever!

We could sort all that out for closer to €30million than €60million!

eirebhoy

Just noticed that Liverpool were closer to bottom (26 points) than top (28 points).:eek:

and yes, Liverpool were very lucky to get forth this season just like man City are lucky to stay up with 38 points (possible 41 but WH got mor last season AFAIK).

Thanx 4 The Fish

Well by the logic put forward in this thread then Arsenal, Chelsea and Man U are also lucky to do as well as they have. Lucky that they have not had the injuries that Liverpool had earlier this season (5 Key players out) and Newcastle had towards the end of the season (5 Key players out).

How well or poorly you perform against last season has no bearing in this one, if you were champions with the lowest winning total ever, nobody gives a crap as long as you were champions and not too many people care that oftentimes the winners of the CHAMPIONS league were not even champions in their league. What matters is how one performs against the teams in your league, in any given season. Next season (hopefully), Liverpool will be competing in the CL and this will boost them, they will be competing in a League in which all that matters is how you perform in that season against the teams that you are drawn against, I couldn't give a crap if, for example, they lost all of their home games and still qualified for the knockout stages (some might consider that lucky) or if they draw all but two as long as they compete well.

Liverpools will build on this season, no matter who is the manager I believe that there is the making of a great team in there, a V Good defender, a good Holding midfielder (Hammann is knocking on a bit) a good attacking winger although Richie Partidge may have what it takes, he hasn't had much of a shot in the top flight and a striker who matches up well with Owen and there will be a team that will challenge anybody next season. As for this and last year, agreed that they were bad years for the Pool and I will have to say that perhaps alot of that is down to the manager, but it is tough for a manager too, coz when Liverpool win it is a great performance by the team and when they lose, it is a dreadful selection by the manager.

thegills

Its all down to confidence lads, and that is something the manager needs to sort out. Hyypia and Henchoz were great last 2 years but crap this year, why?.

Kewell is the perfect example - he was taking players on at Leeds but doesn't at Liverpool. Last season the back 4 had protection in front of them but this season Gerradr tried to play more attacking so the back 4 were more exposed. Changing keepers so often didn't help either.

It seems that the players are 2 afraid to lose the ball so play restrictively; or don't use their full potential. Its no surprise that all the players say that Smicer is a genius in training but is a totally different player when he plays on Saturdays.

At Arsenal and Man U when they win the ball you have 6 players at least tearing up the pitch. When 'Pool win the ball they knock it back to the back 4 and 'find' their shape. By the time they start the attack the other team has 11 players behind the ball. Gerrard, and maybe one or two others probe away but the get crowded out, the ball ends up back with Hyppia who hoofs it up to Owen.

i could go on all night but i think we have the players but they ae not playing as they can or should.

theills