Where are the WMD's? Er.. in Syria of course!

halkar

Why not invade Israel? They probably have most WMDs and nukes and yet no one else in the region to have them. Who gives them the right to have nuke capabilities and yet no one else allowed in the region? They are protecting their interests against Israel as far as they concerned and they see them as threath so they have every right to do so if they have any nuclear activities. Its none of US bussiness, unless of course black gold is involved.
I guess someone in the Jewish lobbies in US are tickling Bush's ass again

Wrestlemania

The Israeli's Nuclear Deterent keeps all the other countries at bay and also stops them from getting wiped out by all the hostile Arab countries.

halkar

Rubbish! why should I feel safe because they have nuclear arsenal? They are far more fanatic then Arabs can ever be and why should they be trusted?
My question is other countries have every right to nuclear arsenal as long as Israel keeps her own and threats the region. Looks like no one doesn't want to go to the root of the problems and throwing the ball to the other rubbish claims.

Wrestlemania

Not to get in an arguement.

Do you see Israeli Suicide Bombers no.
Do you see Israeli's Amputuating or beheading people no.
Do you see Israeli's preach pure hatred in there schools and worldwide no.

Do you see Israeli's make women mere shackles of society no.
Did Israeli ever ask for war no.
Israel reacts to aggression.
Each time there was a truce or peace agreement the other side broke it.


They dont look like fanatics, they look like people who just want to live, why should they struggle or goto war.

The Samson Option is an option that will keep the region stable as no-one wants to be nuked and if it is used Israel will be destroyed aswell.

What is so wrong with these people.

In 1948 two states were setup, why could'nt each live in peace and let the Jews from Europe and there live in Peace.

The Islamic Fundametalists and terrorists are the fanatics, because at the end of the day it is not going acheive anything more than resentment from the non-muslims in the World and even some of there own.

Sleipnir

Originally posted by Wrestlemania
Do you see Israeli Suicide Bombers no.
Do you see Israeli's Amputuating or beheading people no.
Do you see Israeli's preach pure hatred in there schools and worldwide no.

No but they have shot and killed quite a few children.
Or does that not count because it's not 'terrorism'?

Zulu

Originally posted by Wrestlemania
Not to get in an arguement.
Do you see Israeli Suicide Bombers no.

Gimmie a break - they don't need Suicide bombers - they have F-16 Strike Bombers :rolleyes:

Originally posted by Wrestlemania
Do you see Israeli's Amputuating or beheading people no.

Amputuation and beheading are part of there society - circumcision is part of the Jewish society - it's amputuation - perhaps decapitation aswell.

Originally posted by Wrestlemania
Do you see Israeli's preach pure hatred in there schools and worldwide no.

There are fanitic Isrealis aswell - Mossad aren't exactly nice people.
And I suppose young children being fired at with live ammo for throwing rocks at a tank is a symbol of love for life?

Originally posted by Wrestlemania
Do you see Israeli's make women mere shackles of society no.
Did Israeli ever ask for war no.
Israel reacts to aggression.
Each time there was a truce or peace agreement the other side broke it.

Bulldozing houses with the occupants inside isn't agressive. Building walls around peoples houses isn't agressive????

Not to get in an argument??? Advice - don't make stupid remarks so.

halkar

Past is past, take your head out of the sand and stop repeating yourself with 1948 stuff, soon you will go to holocoust too. Israel commits many crimes and gone against UN far many times then other countries in the region did. They don't know anything about human rights unless of course you are a Jew. It is alright for any Jew of the world to go and settle in Israel but it is not alright for Palestinians to go back to their homes that was taken by force. Even for arabs in Israel it is not alright to marry any palestinian unless they leave the country or live apart. And call themselves democratic? All because they have elections doesn't make them democratic.
And their schools are full of stuff from 2000 years ago plus everyone has to go to army for more brain wash.
You said it yourself, Jews from Europe, what about Palestinians from Europe? Do they have any right to go back to Israel? Do you think Israel will give them land and houses and money to setup their homes? Still talking about democratic Israel?
All they do is brag about their arms and technology and yet if anyone else try to do the same in Middle East gets invaded. As I said no one wants to go to the roots of the problems.

Wrestlemania

Zulu get real another person never being there yet you know it all..

Get your facts right aswell and come back with your crusty left wing hippy rubbish or are you on of those idiots that goes into the westbank and thinks i am going to stand in front of a Merkeva. Get Real.

Oh and by the way this is all totally of the point!we are talking about Syria, yet you all bring in Israeli....A Lot of Racism I detect.

And why if these Palentinans claim part of Israel to be there land yet they Hold Jordanian Passports or 80 to 90% of them do mmmmmm suspect.

I did'nt see much brainwashing in the IDF, when myself and Woody were there when we were 18 . They are a pretty down to earth army. And the PA security Forces are professional and not Brainwashed, gimps in uniforms with Ak47 and the Koran in there back pocket.

Wrestlemania

Halkar as we disagree on this point.

I would suggest we agree to disgree. We are always arguing the same thing!:D

Gurgle

Excellent source of facts & figures:
CIA World factbook
USA:
Military expenditures - dollar figure: $276.7 billion (FY99 est.)
UK:
Military expenditures - dollar figure: $31.7 billion (2002)
Israel:
Military expenditures - dollar figure: $8.97 billion (FY02)

Iraq:
Military expenditures - dollar figure: $1.3 billion (FY00)
Syria:
Military expenditures - dollar figure: $858 million (FY00 est.); note - based on official budget data that may understate actual spending.
Iran:
Military expenditures - dollar figure: $9.7 billion (FY00)

Syria looks like an excellent candidate for liberation.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by Wrestlemania
In regard to Syrian influence being oppresive in more ways than one in Lebanon, they have there finger in every pot so to speak and the Lebanesse have being trying to get them out for years to rule there country by themselves.

The same could be said for the Israeli occupation of Lebanon. Try reading P. J. O’Rourke’s ‘Holidays in Hell’.

I have heard many a person from beruit sick to the hilt with the syrians, they are kind of an invader in a manner of speaking aswell. As they still hold a lot of the major posts in government and are still the dominant military and secret police.

Hearsay - and rather disturbingly the closest thing you’ve presented to us as evidence.

As with the Nazi's a film based on Fact called "The Exodus",with Paul Newman..Wouldc explain a lot in regard to this.

Well, if it was in a movie it must be true. After all, when a few years ago a movie came out and pointed out that it was the Americans and not the British that broke the Enigma code, that must have been true too.

The Israeli's Nuclear Deterent keeps all the other countries at bay and also stops them from getting wiped out by all the hostile Arab countries.

Then you would consider retaliation with nukes acceptable if Israel was attacked with conventional forces?

Do you see Israeli's Amputuating or beheading people no.

It’s very difficult to do a clean decapitation from a helicopter gunship.

Do you see Israeli's preach pure hatred in there schools and worldwide no.

Actually you do. A large number of the Israelis who live in the settlements do so out of religious fever and a belief that they are the chosen race. Gentiles (Muslim, Christian or otherwise) are considered inferior. I think the Germans had words for these terms...

Did Israeli ever ask for war no.

That whole “get out we’re taking your land” thing wasn’t a little provocative then?

In 1948 two states were setup, why could'nt each live in peace and let the Jews from Europe and there live in Peace.

Last time I looked the Palestinians were still waiting on theirs.

The Islamic Fundametalists and terrorists are the fanatics, because at the end of the day it is not going acheive anything more than resentment from the non-muslims in the World and even some of there own.

Had it not occurred to you that Israeli actions have led to resentment from Muslims? That this in turn has fuelled support for Islamic fundamentalism and terrorism?

You have a remarkably one-sided view. And not a lot of evidence backing it up either.

halkar

I am not talking about Racism and I have nothing against Israel since I have been there few times and it is a great place to be only if things were a little better.
My original point was about Israel's WMDs and uncontrolled nuclear capabilities and yet no other country is allowed. If Israel thinks that they need them for their security, Syria can have the same reason and yet we hear talks of them being sanctions or possibly invaded. And to me that is where the root of the problems. US policy of being one sided in Middle East and causing more hate and terror than doing any good to the world.

Wrestlemania

I would like to go back to Israel with my family but alas it is to dangerous, I would hope than maybe in the future some peace can be acheive as it must be tiresome also for both sides.

I have no problem living with Muslims or anyone as long as each other respects themselves.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by Wrestlemania
I have no problem living with Muslims or anyone as long as each other respects themselves.

Unfortunately much of the problem arises in the idea of a state based upon a single ethnic group, when in reality it is populated by more than one. In its current incarnation Israel, regardless of its population, is not a multicultural state; it was a state founded to represent one ethnic group. This in effect disenfranchises any citizens or residents that do not belong to this ethnic group - leaving them in a position whereby they must accept being second-class citizens or emigrate. In fairness, a Palestinian state would most likely be just as exclusive - but frankly no worse.

So while you may have no problem living with Muslims or anyone, you must accept that you appear to only have no problem living with them as long as it was on your terms. Hardly a realistic recipe for peaceful co-existence, is it?

vorbis

is it just me but what in the world are the iranians spending 9.7 billion dollars on? That seems huge in comparison to its neighbours.

Also once again, why are people discussing the wmd issue so much? Logically it seems the main reason for sanctions against Syria is for alleged support for iraqi insurgents.

Also Corinthian, haven't the israelis withdrawn from Lebannon now? Indeed, its a bit naieve to think that with 30000 troops in the country, Syria isn't exerting significant control over Lebannon. Being sanctioned by the Arab league is nothing major. Do you also expect to get indepth reports about the situation in Lebannon? No one really cares enough about the place to do any indepth research there.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by vorbis
Also Corinthian, haven't the israelis withdrawn from Lebannon now?

I was just trying to demonstrate that there is (or was) little difference between Syria and Israel on the issue (except that the Syrians were more popular with the locals according to O'Rourke, AFAIR).

halkar

Considering the size of the country and population and the surrounding countries Iran's spendings are not much considering Israel spends $8.97 billion where ever they get it from.
What is your point vorbis? Should we invade US? they spent $276.7 billion and they have WMDs and who knows what else.

Wrestlemania

The Leanesse are not to happy with the Syrians, last time I was in Beruit in 1999.

The average person on the street was sick off them and there fickle minded corruption.

Check out the Daily Star Newspaper in Lebanon there is an online edition in english.

It is generally very impartial and wrote by both christian and muslim journalists.

Iran with a budget that big, i cringe to think what they are up too.

The actual arab league sanctioning those troops there does not have much clouth as the lebanesse both sides dont really want anyone there, They want to rule themselves.

Wrestlemania

Originally posted by The Corinthian
Unfortunately much of the problem arises in the idea of a state based upon a single ethnic group, when in reality it is populated by more than one. In its current incarnation Israel, regardless of its population, is not a multicultural state; it was a state founded to represent one ethnic group. This in effect disenfranchises any citizens or residents that do not belong to this ethnic group - leaving them in a position whereby they must accept being second-class citizens or emigrate. In fairness, a Palestinian state would most likely be just as exclusive - but frankly no worse.

So while you may have no problem living with Muslims or anyone, you must accept that you appear to only have no problem living with them as long as it was on your terms. Hardly a realistic recipe for peaceful co-existence, is it?

Corinthian i am chrisitan not jewish and i dont expect terms for my neighbours just mutal human respect..no more no less.

I come from a mixed family as does Woody another poster here.

vorbis

Considering the size of the country and population and the surrounding countries Iran's spendings are not much considering Israel spends $8.97 billion where ever they get it from.
What is your point vorbis? Should we invade US? they spent $276.7 billion and they have WMDs and who knows what else.

I just thought it seemed very large. Afaik, iran has very little outstanding "enemies" in the senes that a large army is needed against them. i.e. this means the Americans are excluded. They also to the best of my knowledge don't project force abroad, so thats another major cost factor excluded. Syria on the other hand shares a significant border with israel and has 30000 troops in Lebannon. It however has one tenth of the budget that Iran has. I'm not suggesting invading them. Just curious as to what they're spending the money on.

Hairy Homer

Originally posted by Wrestlemania
The Israeli's Nuclear Deterent keeps all the other countries at bay and also stops them from getting wiped out by all the hostile Arab countries.

Not much use against insurgents in Gaza, Ramallah, Jenin, Hebron etc etc etc though are they?

Makes me laugh in an ironic sort of way. THE ONLY country in the Middle East with nuclear weapons capability and they can't use the damn things because their enemies are on lands their own settlers are occupying.

I'm sure Sun Tzu had something to say about picking a strategy to make your enemy's strengths irrelevant.

Zulu

Originally posted by Wrestlemania
Zulu get real another person never being there yet you know it all..

Get real!?! Of course you know me personally - and you know that I haven't worked of 18months on a contract in Israel?

Originally posted by Wrestlemania
Get your facts right aswell and come back with your crusty left wing hippy rubbish or are you on of those idiots that goes into the westbank and thinks i am going to stand in front of a Merkeva. Get Real.

What? A personal insult is bound to win an argument. Try disagreeing with some of my points, supplying a valid argument, and making a logical conclusion as opposed to trolling and making personal insults.

Originally posted by Wrestlemania
Oh and by the way this is all totally of the point!we are talking about Syria, yet you all bring in Israeli....A Lot of Racism I detect.

Firstly, I was disputing the meaningless crap you felt obliged to share with us.
Secondly the Jews aren't a race, and what you detect is the outrage of civilised people who don't enjoy watching people being oppressed, or innocents being killed.

Originally posted by Wrestlemania
And why if these Palestinians claim part of Israel to be there land yet they Hold Jordanian Passports or 80 to 90% of them do mmmmmm suspect.

That's a nice statistic - where did you pull that from? "My first book of bullsh1t stats" by Paul Wolfovitz?

Originally posted by Wrestlemania
I did'nt see much brainwashing in the IDF, when myself and Woody were there when we were 18 . They are a pretty down to earth army. And the PA security Forces are professional and not Brainwashed, gimps in uniforms with Ak47 and the Koran in there back pocket.

Armies operate by brainwashing. New recruits are broken down, and trained up as a unit to follow orders. Evidently the IDF are more effective that you think.

Hairy Homer

Originally posted by Wrestlemania

As with the Nazi's a film based on Fact called "The Exodus",with Paul Newman..Wouldc explain a lot in regard to this.

A film based on what?????

A film based on a putrid polemical pulp novel by Jewish author Leon Uris you mean. It's about as objective as a Stephen Seagal action movie and no doubt about who are the 'bad guys'

Incidentally, a most ironic passage in that book describes a suicide bombing. A woman at the end of her tether grabs a couple of hand grenades, pulls the pins out and runs into a group of her enemies. Despicable, huh? Only the sort of thing a primitive towel head would do, huh?

Actually it's a Jewish woman wiping out a few Nazi soldiers in the Warsaw ghetto in World War Two and I think the reader is supposed to empathise with her and admire her defiant courage.

It probably happened.

Wrestlemania

And you have been in what army or did you see that on full metal jacket.
I have been in two armies and see none of this brainwashing I have seen abuse not not that!


Palestinians are mostly Jordanians.

Zulu

Originally posted by Wrestlemania
And you have been in what army or did you see that on full metal jacket.
I have been in two armies and see none of this brainwashing I have seen abuse not not that!


Palestinians are mostly Jordanians.

I have never been in an army - and I remain open minded.
I won't get in an argument with you about the effects of basic military training, and the mentality of it, me thinks you know first hand - what with being in two armies.
(by-the-by isn't that a conflict of loyalities, treason or somthing?)

Wrestlemania

Was in the IDF for 18 months and the Irish PDF for nearly 7 years.

Not an offence anyone can do it.

Most of the the 27BN in LOuth has being in the Legion and the british army

Not much use against insurgents in Gaza, Ramallah, Jenin, Hebron etc etc etc though are they?

Makes me laugh in an ironic sort of way. THE ONLY country in the Middle East with nuclear weapons capability and they can't use the damn things because their enemies are on lands their own settlers are occupying.

As far as I've noticed in the last 60 years, not one nuke has been used against an enemy. Nukes are not weapons as such anymore. They're a political tool. Its a status symbol to represent that you've entered the big boys league.

On the other hand, WMD's also include chemical & biological weapons which could be deployed in areas that Israel occupies and not harm their own settlers. Don't you think that If Israel was the violent nation you think of, she'd have used them by now?

I just thought it seemed very large. Afaik, iran has very little outstanding "enemies" in the senes that a large army is needed against them. i.e. this means the Americans are excluded.

Two things. Right up until last year they had Iraq to contend with. They had no assurance that they wouldn't be invaded again. A large army tends to be a great deterrent.

Second part. Why is the US excluded? They're shown time and time again, that they're willing to invade other nations borders. Iran might be foreseeing a time that they will have to face the US in battle.

Gurgle

Originally posted by klaz:
As far as I've noticed in the last 60 years, not one nuke has been used against an enemy. Nukes are not weapons as such anymore. They're a political tool. Its a status symbol to represent that you've entered the big boys league.

Do you honestly believe it beyond GWB to change that ?

Before the Afghanistan invasion, they specifically said "We are not ruling out that option at this time".

Do you honestly believe it beyond GWB to change that ?

The US has always said that they reserve the right to use WMD's in defense. Unfortuently, the US has pushed defense into the Pre-emptive strike category.

The US is a special case. Its the only Nuclear power that I really fear would use Nukes. Israel, I wouldn't expect them of doing it, because the chance of damaging themselves would be too great.

Wrestlemania

What about the Russians and Chinesse. They have plenty of Nukes forget about the rest....