Realistic salary expectaions for a programmer?(kinda newbie)

crapjocks

Originally posted by Kobie
I wouldn't touch them with a barge pole. They really know how to screw you around while acting nice to your face.

agree.

crapjocks

Originally posted by vorbis
RicardoSmith, most theory suggests that you can't beat having developers in close proximity to each other. Theres a complete clash of cultures in dealing with india. It can be very awkward. I think imo that outshoring to places like Barcelona is a better bet.

Pair programming, can someone please think of the pair programming.

In my experience it works very well.

crapjocks

you have to be persistant in applying to job.s I applied for a job in may 2003 did not get a reply until christmas 2003 about it when I had a phone interview. Nothing again until march when I had a second phone interview then I met them late march and am just after getting offered a job as a graduate oracle dba and pl/sql programmer.

Every add you see from a company apply for (not recruitment agencies they just dont give a hoot) because you never know what your cv just may trigger.

Best of luck.

RicardoSmith

Originally posted by crapjocks
Pair programming, can someone please think of the pair programming.

In my experience it works very well.

Whats that got to do with it?

Outsourcing is not having one programmer in Ireland and one in India. Its about not doing any development in Ireland and have all 150 programmers in India. Its about big projects, big money.

RicardoSmith

Originally posted by crapjocks
you have to be persistant in applying to job.s I applied for a job in may 2003 did not get a reply until christmas 2003 about it when I had a phone interview. Nothing again until march when I had a second phone interview then I met them late march and am just after getting offered a job as a graduate oracle dba and pl/sql programmer.

Every add you see from a company apply for (not recruitment agencies they just dont give a hoot) because you never know what your cv just may trigger.

Best of luck.

What have been doing in the meantime?

RicardoSmith

Originally posted by crapjocks
Then again 3 years ago there was not as much advertising done on the net.

Unfortunately the ease of posting on the web is that its easier to make it seem busier than it is.

crapjocks

Originally posted by RicardoSmith
What have been doing in the meantime?

Bits and pieces. Working for a small ms back office consultancy and as a user admin dude. Greatful for this oppurtunity.

crapjocks

Originally posted by RicardoSmith
Unfortunately the ease of posting on the web is that its easier to make it seem busier than it is.

Very true. Many duplicates from multiple agencies.

It is picking up though.

Peace

Well for anyone who is still interested or still subscribed to this thread....

8 Days out of college (since i completed my last exam) and i have a full time development position...

Salaray expectations further back the thread were realistic... mid twenties there-abouts.

Perhaps the economy isn't still imploding on itself!

I'll see you all on monday... except i'll be sneaking a quicky look at the board from my desk when noone is looking .

damnyanks

Sort of job is it? Where did you graduate from? Grades ?



(Am curious:))

Peace

Originally posted by damnyanks
Sort of job is it?

Development, mainly .Net work

Originally posted by damnyanks
Where did you graduate from?

I haven't exaclty gradutated but i've just finished... Griffith College Dublin... Computer Science (is there any other course anywhere?? ever?)

Originally posted by damnyanks
Grades ?

Lots of letters like A/B in programming stuff... mainly C's for the business crapola.
Expected result from the degree is a 2.1 but with a hint of a 1st!

Hobbes

Originally posted by Peace
Well for anyone who is still interested or still subscribed to this thread....

8 Days out of college (since i completed my last exam) and i have a full time development position...

Salaray expectations further back the thread were realistic... mid twenties there-abouts.

Perhaps the economy isn't still imploding on itself!

No it's imploding. Most places are only hiring graduates because they know they can exploit the hell out of them.

There are jobs there for others, but they are rare.

RicardoSmith

Originally posted by Hobbes
No it's imploding. Most places are only hiring graduates because they know they can exploit the hell out of them.

There are jobs there for others, but they are rare.

Thats what I'm seeing. If you are not a graduate, you'll need 3yrs + and probably need to pass a technical exam to get a role.

positron

You think working with an outsourced team in India is bad? Wait till Chinese come on board! China leads manufacturing and is playing catch up in services – they will soon start to undercut India – anyone knows where the 400 mulhuddart IBM jobs are going to?

RicardoSmith

positron wrote:

You think working with an outsourced team in India is bad? Wait till Chinese come on board! China leads manufacturing and is playing catch up in services – they will soon start to undercut India – anyone knows where the 400 mulhuddart IBM jobs are going to?

Talk about dragging up old topics :rolleyes:


From what I heard IBM Ireland isn't going to be affected. Where did you hear different?

Though I agree, outsourcing is a downward spiral for the IT industry. Time to get a trade I think!

WizZard

Dragging up old posts!

I too have heard a rumour that there are going to be job losses in Ireland from IBM.

WhiteWashMan

that doesnt surprise me.

although Ricardo, im not sure if youa re mixing up IBM international and IBM ireland. IBM international was Mulhuddart when i was there working in the microelectronics division.

but when i worked in the all centre in blanch, that was IBM Ireland.

as far as i can see though, the mulhuddart facility was never really taken up.
there were a few buildings put up, and the plans were to put up a second SSD facility and a second MSD facility, as well as expand the AS400 stuff and numerous other things. in fact, they were talking about taking up an option to expand the land by another couple of hundred acres.

but after i left (and i dont *think* there was any correlation here ) i heard that SSD was closing and some of the other facilities went into decline.

i have no idea whats there now, but it was all just a tax free incentive being used to the maximum, and i dont think there were very long term plans for IBM to continue production in ireland, other than a token effort to get the IDA and irish government on board.

i also heard that the blanch call centre cut its hours after i left (the batsards! i hated working til 8am!) and since the dumped the aptiva desktop range, i guess people werent replaced, and the size of the employee base shrunk.

of course, they did have sales there as well...

whats it like now~?

Paligulus

Peace wrote:

Well for anyone who is still interested or still subscribed to this thread....

8 Days out of college (since i completed my last exam) and i have a full time development position...

Salaray expectations further back the thread were realistic... mid twenties there-abouts.

Perhaps the economy isn't still imploding on itself!

I'll see you all on monday... except i'll be sneaking a quicky look at the board from my desk when noone is looking .

While everybody else is bitching about the state of the economy I'll take this opportunity to congratulate you!!


Fair play to ya!!!

RicardoSmith

WhiteWashMan wrote:

...Ricardo, im not sure if youa re mixing up IBM international and IBM ireland. IBM international was Mulhuddart when i was there working in the microelectronics division....

No idea. I'm just going by what I heard on the radio.

Peace - congrats. Welcome to IT! Now start working on those certs!

DublinWriter

Peace wrote:

Hello again,

So i'm wondering what to ask for in those job interviews (if i ever get one) when they come around. I'm 7 days away from my final exam and then i'll be out with a degree in Computer Science: looks very much like a 2.1.

Firstly, I'll cut to the chase and say that programming is fast becoming the scrag-end job of the IT professional world, with the exception of high-end graphics and software engineering work.

Most working programmers aren't graduates. Experience is King when it comes to employers and agencies in terms of filling programming positions.

Unless you really *love* programming, I'd advise you to try and work in maybe more of a systems analysis/project manager track - anything that has more of a business focus. As a new graduate, you shouldn't just limit yourself to programming unless it's something you really love and want to do.

Avoid agencies at your stage in your career. Try and get into a graduate recruitment programme with one of the big corporates, something that you can maybe bale out of in three years time and that will make your CV look impressive.

positron

RicardoSmith wrote:

From what I heard IBM Ireland isn't going to be affected. Where did you hear different!

Radio. They are looking for 400 voluntary retirements this time, five weeks pay for every year in service, and an option to be retrained and placed in other IBM locations.

DublinWriter

positron wrote:

You think working with an outsourced team in India is bad? Wait till Chinese come on board! China leads manufacturing and is playing catch up in services – they will soon start to undercut India – anyone knows where the 400 mulhuddart IBM jobs are going to?

Damn right. It's the stated aim of the Chinese government to move into the service industries too and they are ensuring that *all* school-leavers there will have fluent English in 12 years time. From this year on, they've introduced English as a subject in all levels of their educational system.

Personally, I don't see programming as a viable career anymore. You might as well fix washing-machines. The vast majority of programming work in corporate environments is basically churning out and maintaining transactional systems.

damnyanks

Time to learn chinese

tempest

RicardoSmith wrote:

Peace - congrats. Welcome to IT! Now start working on those certs!

You don't really need certs (although they can't do any harm), just an interest and an ability to sell yourself. If you put your head down and work for 3-4 years and get the experience then there are jobs there. Those jobs are not going, although there may well be a limited number of them.

There will always be jobs for people who:
1) know what they are talking about.
2) don't get pigeonholed. (e.g as a Java/C++/.NET Developer)
3) watch what goes on and what really makes projects work.
4) take it upon themselves to keep up to date with both business and technology.

It's not easy and it's never going to be easy, but you don't get paid well for taking it easy.

I see people coming out of college all the time. Just doing software and computers because they think there is money there, and think that they can get a cushy number. I'm not saying that about anyone here, but this is the way things are, and people like that can't survive in an industry where you truly have to be constantly reassessing yourself and everything around you.

This is true of Ireland and other countries, but these people will always be in trouble no matter what country they are in or are from.

Programming is not dead or dying, but programming is not a stand alone occupation, and it never will or never can be. Programming is a means to an end and people who just program are always going to be one step behind people who can see the (slightly) bigger picture.

Software and IT is not a 9-5:30 job and it never will be. You have to live for the stuff and you have to have passion for what you create. You still need to balance your life and keep interests outside software, you still need to spend time with family and socialise with friends to stay sane, but at the end of the day you have to live and breathe software. If you don't there is someone else coming into the interview room ten minutes after you leave who does.

To the OP, Good luck with the job. Stick with it for a while even if it's not exactly what you want, and see how the industry works. See what people are doing and always ask yourself if this is the right way to do things, or if there is a better way. Talk to people who have been doing it for a while and ask them why they do certain things. If you don't understand something ask about it. Learn and evaluate, and in 4 to 5 years time you will have the ability to move into anything you like.

Sarunas

Johnny Versace wrote:

Experience is the key.

Dragging up old posts...

How does one get experience? I'm 1st year CA in dcu.

RicardoSmith

I admire tempests dedication and commitment. He obviously breathes and lives software development. However the fact that this level of commitment is required would seem to indicate that competition is high and the number of roles are fewer. Its much harder to break into now than its ever been.

Yes you don't need certs if you have experience. But it helps in getting experience if you have certs. Also if you find yourself concentrating on a specific area, "pigeonholed" doing a cert is a good way of widening your IT knowledge.

ixoy

Right, this thread is as relavent to me as any I could create.

Was a tech. writer and now looking to break into the programmng/development field (with an eye, eventually, to heading to the more lucrative design/engineering area of software). I reckon that - longterm - it will offer more career prospects than tech. writing which is too narrowly focused and not with any real expansion room.

Trouble is that all those ads for software developers, on the various recruitment sites, keep demanding 2yrs+ commercial experience. I gained a few months work back several years ago and now seem to be in a Catch-22 situation where I need experience to get experience. I'm sure it's something many here are familiar with...

So the question is: what's the best approach or company? I know grad. positions are generally the way to go, but they're not an option right now given they're closed for the year (and I graduated in 2001...).
Certain other positions may lead to development roles but, to be honest, after spending 3y ears in a job hoping to move sideways, I don't really want to be taking that maybe chance again.
The other possibility seems consultancy perhaps, but that seems more focused on a sort of business/interpersonal slant, which wouldn't suit me as much.

As for my skillset, anything I did has been with Java, so that's where I'd end up. I could try and tackle the likes of C# but it won't be backed by any work history and that leads to previous problems.

Anyone got any suggestions? I've been floundering around it for a couple of months now and have made no headway except to get a job in the same area I'm trying to escape from!

damnyanks

Just apply for jobs. I was offered jobs that I was under qualified for. The fact that you have some experience and then the technical writeing experience will at the very least appeal to one person who is looking for candidates.

I'd advise looking in the UK as well. There seem to be far more jobs, probably because there are far more people here

At the very least companies will say no. Not all graduate positions are closed. Check out www.milkround.com and www.doctorjob.com

RicardoSmith

I agree its a catch 22 and its hard to break into. Just getting over that now myself. You can probably find a role in support or localisation that has a mix which includes some development. No easy answer. Just keep plugging away and you'll get there eventually.

Töpher

So, judging from the sounds of it, it'd be hard for someone who's just finished 3rd year Comp Sci in UCD to get a summer job (hoping to make it into 4th year!)? Just want something to challenge/develop my skills during the off-months, but there seems to be a negative attitude about the idustry here, and well, I've not had much luck so far!

damnyanks

Einst&#252 wrote: »

So, judging from the sounds of it, it'd be hard for someone who's just finished 3rd year Comp Sci in UCD to get a summer job (hoping to make it into 4th year!)? Just want something to challenge/develop my skills during the off-months, but there seems to be a negative attitude about the idustry here, and well, I've not had much luck so far!

In most cases yes. Larger multinationals and big Irish companies usually have some sort of summer intern program. However people apply for these months in advance.

Try and see if you know someone who knows someone who knows someone etc.

The thing about Ireland is most third level institutions only offer 3 - 6 month placements. In the Uk its 12 - 15 months so companies are more willing to hire you as you will be arounf to contribute properly. It's crazy

daveirl

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RicardoSmith

daveirl wrote:

This post has been deleted.

EE? Electronic Engineering?

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

rick_fantastic

im only finishing 3rd year computer science. i have 4 interviews over the next week now there only tech support jobs but im only looking for sumthing to get me thru the summer until i go back to my cushy part time supervior role in a college in town

i personally wouldnt do tech support for less than €25k but i do have three years experience. i applied for about fifteen jobs on recruitireland and my fone didnt stop ringing.

saying that most of my mates in college cant even get a look in.