Croke park debate could start again

GreenHell

http://www.rugby.ie/news/story.asp?j=6051

Be great to play our group games in Croker if lansdowne road isn't going to be ready which looks to be the case.

Imposter

I think it's crazy that they are playing the games in 4 countries. For me it makes more sense to use just France.

MarVeL

Logical sense yes. Political sense, sadly, no

Trojan

I'm not sure if the outstanding 38M euro has been paid, if not then I firmly believe that the government should withhold it dependent on removal of Rule 42.

As a GAA fan and long time (albeit on-off) Dublin support, the insular attitude of the provincial GAA officials disgusts me. I'd boycott the championship games, but the sad truth of the matter is that it's impossible for me to get tickets in the first place (another story).

Hairy Homer

Originally posted by Trojan
I'm not sure if the outstanding 38M euro has been paid, if not then I firmly believe that the government should withhold it dependent on removal of Rule 42.

The only way this is going to be resolved is when someone in the GAA sees sense and rings up the FAI and/or IRFU and says: 'OK lads. Let's do business.'

Anyone with any nous in the GAA knows it's going to have to happen sooner or later. They just can't go on paying for Croker on only a few big GAA games a year. The sooner it happens, the less chance there will be of recriminations between the various codes and examination of the quite brutal and ultimately ridiculous history of the ban on 'foreign and fantastic' games.

Bottom line: Soccer and Rugby don't need Croker. They'll have their own perfectly adequate stadium in four years and before that, the trip over to Cardiff, Liverpool or Manchester via Ryanair is not going to be that onerous in the short term.

And the beer over there's a lot cheaper anyway. And I bet the local publicans won't hike the price of a pint up overnight to cater for the thirsty Irish hoards.

por

Originally posted by Trojan
, the insular attitude of the provincial GAA officials disgusts me.

Trojan - I reckon it's more to do with the insular attitude of the Ulster GAA officals that is the problem. You would have a lot more trouble trying to get that crowd to change their attitude that you would officals in the south

por

Originally posted by Hairy Homer
The only way this is going to be resolved is when someone in the GAA sees sense and rings up the FAI and/or IRFU and says: 'OK lads. Let's do business.'

I don't think it's up to the GAA to go knocking on the IRFU and FAI's door to get business done. It's the IRFU and the FAI that will need the stadium in the short term, let them knock on the GAA's door and then the talking would start.

MarVeL

As far as I can see they have done, several times, and been told where to go. Obviously both of them would love to be allowed to use Croke Park but the GAAs oh so up to date rules won't allow it. Personally I blame the Jesuits If only it had been a condition of sale of the old Belvedere Jones' Road ground

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

GreenHell

GAA argument of protecting its sports is bull, whats stopping this happening is all the old school "don't let the british army play our game" heads. GAA needs to move with the times and see the bigger picture cash money, and for us fans more tickets and a world class venture, anyone see Johnson standing on the wrong side of the red carpet infront of 80k irish fans.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Imposter

Originally posted by MarVeL
As far as I can see they have done, several times, and been told where to go. Obviously both of them would love to be allowed to use Croke Park but the GAAs oh so up to date rules won't allow it. Personally I blame the Jesuits If only it had been a condition of sale of the old Belvedere Jones' Road ground

Wrong. Afaik only the government have officially approached the GAA about letting soccer into croker and that was for the Euro 2008 bid. The government also knew in asking that such a decision would have to be made at congress and such a decision not to open Croker was made the year before at congress.

Originally posted by Trojan
I'm not sure if the outstanding 38M euro has been paid, if not then I firmly believe that the government should withhold it dependent on removal of Rule 42.

It has not been paid and looks like it won't be but then it was granted by a government who knew what Croke park is used for. Do you think that giving the IRFU the money for the new landsdowne proposal would be ok? After all that seems to be more money than the GAA got for Croker and percentage wise it's 66% of the total cost of the redevelopment with the IRFU and the FAI managing to graciously find the other 33%! This from professional sports I might add.

Hairy Homer

Originally posted by daveirl
Well it's not really bull. Look at a county like Killkenny where they don't play football and concentrate solely on Hurling. Their hurling performs better as a result. So clearly more players means a better team. So you have to assume that an increase in the popularity of rugby/soccer would damage the GAA.

Don't get me wrong I'd love to see Croke Park open, but if showcasing other sports doesn't harm your sport, then why do the IRFU fight so hard against Rugby League?

What sports are played at Giants Stadium New York?

Baseball
American Football
Soccer (whenever the world cup comes around)

What sports are played at Stade de France and Parc des Princes?
Soccer
Rugby
Athletics


What sports were played at Wembley?

Soccer
Rugby Union
Rugby League
Greyhound racing
Show jumping

Who says major stadia should only be used for one sport?

There is no point arguing with the GAA. If they want to play ball, we'll talk. If they don't let them get on with it and see the next generation of Irish kids buying replica kits from Arsenal, Man Utd, Liverpool etc etc As I said before. Nobody outside of the GAA NEEDS Croke Park.

Need to see the big picture here. A stadium like that is infrastructure. Its use should be maximised across as many users as possible. Then the various sports can compete for attendance on what each has to offer.

Rugby - a global game in which our star players compete as equals for our own sides

Soccer - a globalised game in which our star players compete as equals to be signed up for the likes of Man Utd and Arsenal and play with the best in the world at club level before pulling their Achilles Tendons on the eve of an international

Gaelic - the local game in which every so often the likes of Clare Offaly Waterford etc etc get their place in the sun to the delight of everybody in the region. Look at the emergence of Clare as a hurling force in the 1990s. First all Ireland in 70 odd years. What does that fell like? Don't ask a Man Ure or an Arseanl fan. They will NEVER experience anything like that and they are the poorer for it.

uberwolf

Originally posted by por
Trojan - I reckon it's more to do with the insular attitude of the Ulster GAA officals that is the problem. You would have a lot more trouble trying to get that crowd to change their attitude that you would officals in the south

afaik its the cork lads that have consistently provided the greatest resistance to any reformists through the years, most notably Tom Woulfe. The lads furthest away from the reality on the ground maintain their 'ideals'.

This debate will only end up one way. Its just a question of how long until it somes to pass.

Imposter

Originally posted by Hairy Homer
Need to see the big picture here. A stadium like that is infrastructure. Its use should be maximised across as many users as possible. Then the various sports can compete for attendance on what each has to offer.

I see your point here but it doesn't always hold true.

In the case of Croker it is first and foremost a GAA stadium. That much will never change no matter who else are allowed to play there. So letting games like Rugby and Soccer in on a long term basis would eventually cause a problem should a soccer championship or rugby world cup come to Ireland. Not only that but Ireland would then only have one decent stadium to host such events which imo is a shame for such a sport-loving country.

2nd point that is completely tied to your point and is the more pressing issue in the case of Croker is how many events can it handle each year. In theory that could be lots with the only delay being giving the surface time to recover and switching around whatever fittings to handle whatever games. However a bigger problem than this is residents. There is an agreement with a few residents associations in the area as to the max number of events each year in Croker. I don't know how many are in the agreed compromise but i'd be pretty sure that adding 5-8 more events (soccer and rugby) every year would put the number of events over what the agreement allows. Now should the GAA sacrifice some of it's events for these?

uberwolf

Originally posted by Imposter
I don't know how many are in the agreed compromise but i'd be pretty sure that adding 5-8 more events (soccer and rugby) every year would put the number of events over what the agreement allows. Now should the GAA sacrifice some of it's events for these?

AFAIK Croke Park needs 50k+ attendance to turn a profit, which is why some provincial level games aren't being played there anymore. As the number of GAA games there drops the availability for other sports would (obviously) increase. What the exact levels are remains to be dtermined of course.

GreenHell

Croke park is only really full consistantly in the last stages of the championship, around the country the GAA have staduims with capacity of nearly 48k, they splashed out 12 million lately on the GAA grounds in limerick, it would make since for the GAA to move big matches at might now pull the crowds outside of dublin.

I can't understand why the GAA didn't put a moveable surface into croke park, but ya increased events would put the surface under pressure but the majority of rugby games are played before the championship kicks off.

I still think that keeping out rugby and soccer to protect GAA is still ridiculous, rugby has never been more popular in this country, not opening up will not stem this. Counties like kilkenny has a long history of hurling over football, there have and always will be hurling and football counties, thats more down to lack of interest and population management.

Imposter

Originally posted by uberwolf
AFAIK Croke Park needs 50k+ attendance to turn a profit, which is why some provincial level games aren't being played there anymore. As the number of GAA games there drops the availability for other sports would (obviously) increase. What the exact levels are remains to be dtermined of course.

I think the level is around 25-30k and by combining 2 matches in the earlier stages of the Leinster championships and playing some qualifiers there they do get crowds of that size. I can only imagine a lot of the reason for the residents agreements in the first place is that they (the residents) feel that there are too many games there.

Another thing they've started doing is not opening the top tiers of some or all of the stands. This cuts down on the cost of opening the stadium.