How will you vote in the Citizenship referendum?

Hobbes

Originally posted by Imposter
I haven't read the refcom page but from what you said here it's only if the child is refused from the parents country that it can become Irish under international law. What countries refuse children who's parents are both citizens?

To my knowledge, I do not know. Maybe none. But that does not mean it may change at a later stage.

The point is, it doesn't stop Asylum seekers coming here.
Under Irish law any child they have will still be offered the full medical benifits that any Irish citizen gets and they can tie up the courts trying to get citzenship while that is going on.

So same old, same old.

ishmael whale

bobbyjoe
You are absolutely right to point out that the essential formulation of Irish citizenship law has existed since the foundation of the state and, apart from some tweaking in the 1950s to include Irish people who emigrated before the state was established who were technically not citizens, it is only in recent years that any problem has emerged. I have already posted up extracts from the relevant Dail debates showing that the core values expressed in our laws were right of people in Northern Ireland and of emigrants. The world has changed, and the issue of Irish citizenship being obtained as a device now needs to be dealt with.
Arcadegame makes great play of figures. I don’t. My point is something is either an issue or its not. Its not about basing an amendment on a comment from a Doctor closer to the issue than me (and possibly you, but then you might be a midwife for all I know). His comment, other comments I have posted in previous threads and the example of the Chen case are simply enough to show this is not a purely theoretical issue.
However the reason for a referendum is simply because the current provision is flawed. I feel you are stressing the ‘numbers’ issue because you recognise the weakness of the ‘no’ case on the core issue – there is no reason to extend Irish citizenship to someone seeking to obtain it (or to obtain it for a child) as a device.

You ask ‘since when do we have to pre-determine what Europe wants and change our laws to suit it.’ This is avoiding the point, which arises from your implicit suggestion that we should let Europe decide the content of our citizenship laws. I say we should feel empowered enough to responsibly do this for ourselves. This involves asking why should we extend Irish citizenship to people seeking residency in other EU states for no particular reason? What’s it got to do with us?
I honestly don’t see the relevance of the 1916 proclamation, and presume you have already seen an exchange on this topic in an earlier thread. The question is who can be deemed to be children of the nation. I don’t necessarily subscribe to the idea that ‘cherishing’ should apply only to children of the nation.
Equally, what determines a republican constitution is hardly something that holds water. As I noted earlier, Athens was the original republic but its citizens owned slaves. Some might have regarded the bit (now gone) of Bunreacht Na Eireann referring to the special position of the Catholic Church as dodgy, but we were still deemed a republic.
Its not a case of classing people according to their parentage. It is a case of ensuring that the granting of Irish citizenship is not an empty formula. I don’t see any particular connection between this and the millions of people of Irish descent living all around the world.

MadsL

So I'm following Arcade's argument this past week (as I have had time too following my ban for reacting to his inflammatory boll...no, forget it, leave it Jimmy, he's not worth it..)

In summary then I should vote Yes because...

1. The Heath service is at the point of collapse.
2. Nigerian 'gangs' are forging passports (still waiting for a source)
3. Al-Queeda, "Chinese triads, the Russian mafia, Nigerian criminal gangs, not to mention Al-Qaeda, to gain a foothold in this state"
4. It will take "500 years to deport all illegals in Ireland at the moment" therefore the Irish will be in the minority "non-nationals will be a majority in the Republic of Ireland by 2032."
5. "Not to mention the huge expense to the Health-Service of treating the huge increase in infectious diseases e.g. syphillis"
6. "I promise you that a link will shortly be placed on this thread."
7. Columbine..(boggle... )

God, now I'm convinced...
:rolleyes:

MrPudding

Originally posted by MadsL
So I'm following Arcade's argument this past week (as I have had time too following my ban for reacting to his inflammatory boll...no, forget it, leave it Jimmy, he's not worth it..)

In summary then I should vote Yes because...

1. The Heath service is at the point of collapse.
2. Nigerian 'gangs' are forging passports (still waiting for a source)
3. Al-Queeda, "Chinese triads, the Russian mafia, Nigerian criminal gangs, not to mention Al-Qaeda, to gain a foothold in this state"
4. It will take "500 years to deport all illegals in Ireland at the moment" therefore the Irish will be in the minority "non-nationals will be a majority in the Republic of Ireland by 2032."
5. "Not to mention the huge expense to the Health-Service of treating the huge increase in infectious diseases e.g. syphillis"
6. "I promise you that a link will shortly be placed on this thread."
7. Columbine..(boggle... )

God, now I'm convinced...
:rolleyes:

Damn. My eyes have been open. Vote yes. Save our country from the hordes of Nigerian mafia triad Al-qaeda gun toting teenager foreigners.

MrP

SoulSurgeon

Greetings,

Goverment saying that there is a loophole in the system, but what they are proposing is a completely new system, where citizenship will be based primarily on bloodline. And this is major change not a minor amendment

And yes Ireland can be unique in EU but is it bad to be unique? Plus as already metioned US, and many countries worldwide share the same principle(jus soli).

Here is a quote from Irish Counsil for Civil Liberties counsil article

This is not about harmonising immigration rules, it is about Irish citizenship rights, Irish identity and Irish legal heritage. We do not line up with Europe on neutrality, or criminal law, or taxation, but the government is not rushing to change this. If the government suggested we needed to "get in line" with all the other EU states on neutrality then there would be outrage, although this is not even a constitutional matter.

Chen case doesn`t have potenial to overrule Hight Court desion (it's related to UK immigrartion law). Asulum seekers who were in EU for a long time and decided to give birth in Ireland were stimulated by chance to avoid deportation and become an Irish resident.
Since its no longer possible I don`t think there will be a huge numbers of EEA non national pregnant women coming here from abroad with a sole purpose to give birth.

Lets suppose new proposal came through, well then they can claim that the father of child is british,etc
So the new proposal fix nothing in my opinion and on top give power to legislate to the Goverment that uses faulty arguments to advance their case.

BTW I haven`t heard that there was loads of people going to US, New Zealand witn only one purpose to give birth. Imagine young mother saying right I am pregnant lets go to US, etc


By the way as it was mentioned in the media before De Valera
was US citizen by birth and that could be a fact that saved him from execution.

People who are coming to particular country legally to work, ect and making an important desion to have a baby showing that they want to be a part of the nation.

Talking about illegal immigrants and asylum seekers it up to people and Goverment to decide what laws are to be put in place to ensure that there is no abuse of the immigration system(I wonder were we have one? ) and a good will of the Irish people, and how many people that are living outside of EEA can come here legally.

I believe that the reason why citizenship should be granted automatically to the children who born in Ireland is becouse most people who are having child obviously plan to settle here and even if jus soli principle is excluded their children will have a right to the citizenship once 16 or 18 by the virtue of them been in state for so long and at that time their parent would become Irish citizens.

So why one would want to discriminate (exclude them from automatic citizenship) agains a specific children becouse their parents who are normal residents of Eire were born abroad? The fact that certain people abuse Constitution does`t mean we have to change it. In other words what is needed is fair and effective immigration system and not a constitutional amendment.


Look at Italy, Spain etc they have a substancial numbers of illegal immigrants who are working/living there and recently they realised that its better to legalise at least part of them who been working there for along time. At least they will be able to demand minimum wage versus working 12-16 hours for peanuts.
Part of the people living in the Third word countries and Africa are always be tempted to come to EU or US one way or another unless their economy will improve.

And the fact that their future children if any will not receive citizenship automatically will not stop them , becouse they primary motive is to earn money to support themselves and their family.

Ireland is a small country and imho the best way to deal with the issue of migration and possible citizenship tourism is:

1. show that we are ready to admit a certain numbers of migrants outside of EEA proportionately to our population and treat them and family member the same way we threat our own citizens.

2. have proper immigration system able ensure that we have very small or nil number of people who are here illegaly or misusing their permisson to remain (students who have right to work 20 hours per week provided they attending college full time) and working 24/7 for 3-4 euro per hour.

3.contribute certain percentage of GDP to the development agencies to ensure that people will get help that enable them to develop their economy and see if there a way to support fair trade talking about import tariffs, that of course have to be dealt at EU and US level, becouse the issue is not so simple. And I have to say Foreign depatment does alot, speaking about Foreign Aid.


At the end I would repeat that the fact that certain people abuse Constitution (paragraph 2) doesn`t mean we have to abolish it, what is needed is an effective immigration system to deal with this people and minimize the number of such cases.


All the best,

Soul Surgeon.

ishmael whale

Originally posted by SoulSurgeon
At the end I would repeat that the fact that certain people abuse Constitution (paragraph 2) doesn`t mean we have to abolish it, what is needed is an effective immigration system to deal with this people and minimize the number of such cases.

I take this to mean you agree that people using Irish citizenship as a device to gain residency elsewhere should be acted against, you're just suggesting that it been done through 'effective immigration system'. I don't really follow what you mean by 'effective immigration system' in this context.

If we want to stop granting citizenship where it is only a device, the best approach would seem to be to stop granting citizenship where it is only a device. The planned legislation addresses your concerns about people actually living here, and includes their children as citizens.

bobbyjoe

ishmael whale, only getting back to you now got distracted.

ishmael whale
“it is only in recent years that any problem has emerged.”

What problem? the imaginary hoards of pregnant women rushing towards our maternity hospitals pushing Irish Colleens onto the ground.
That argument has been killed in another thread (the one arcadegame posted with the stupid newspaper article in it)

ishmael whale
“there is no reason to extend Irish citizenship to someone seeking to obtain it (or to obtain it for a child) as a device.”
And I repeat why should we deny citizenship rights to people for no discernable reason.

ishmael whale
“which arises from your implicit suggestion that we should let Europe decide the content of our citizenship laws.”
Don’t know where your getting that from. I’ve expressed to complete opposite it’s the yes argument to get in line with Europe.

ishmael whale
I don’t necessarily subscribe to the idea that ‘cherishing’ should apply only to children of the nation.”
Me too who said it didn't.

ishmael whale
It is a case of ensuring that the granting of Irish citizenship is not an empty formula. I don’t see any particular connection between this and the millions of people of Irish descent living all around the world.”

Depends what you consider citizenship. I’d say being born here is enough. Others disagree. The mention of the Irish abroad is just pointing out how hypocritical it would be for us to be restricting our citizenship laws after how we have been treated by other countries.

arcadegame2004

-Originally posted by MrPudding

---

Originally posted by MadsL
So I'm following Arcade's argument this past week (as I have had time too following my ban for reacting to his inflammatory boll...no, forget it, leave it Jimmy, he's not worth it..)

In summary then I should vote Yes because...

1. The Heath service is at the point of collapse.
2. Nigerian 'gangs' are forging passports (still waiting for a source)
3. Al-Queeda, "Chinese triads, the Russian mafia, Nigerian criminal gangs, not to mention Al-Qaeda, to gain a foothold in this state"
4. It will take "500 years to deport all illegals in Ireland at the moment" therefore the Irish will be in the minority "non-nationals will be a majority in the Republic of Ireland by 2032."
5. "Not to mention the huge expense to the Health-Service of treating the huge increase in infectious diseases e.g. syphillis"
6. "I promise you that a link will shortly be placed on this thread."
QUOTE]

You're learning MrPudding, at long last! Good on ya

arcadegame2004

This link details some of the Nigerian dimension to the involvement of organised crime by Nigerians, including the forgery of passports and work-visas. http://www.dicar.dk/events/smuggling.htm

bobbyjoe

Arcagegame That the best you could find?
Your arguements are getting worse as each one is shot down.

See at the bottom regarding combating this problem

"European countries should also strenghten their domestic laws against trafficking, by granting stay permits to the victims and using them as sources of practical evidence against traffickers. In most cases victims are being treated as criminals and traffickers as resposible law abiding persons - efforts is needed to define a victim as a victim and a trafficker as a trafficker. "

Also could you remind me what this has to do with the referendum?

Saruman

By the way all this talk about people smugglers exploiting our laws to get citizenship? How does that work exactly? If the child is born here its an irish citizen but the parents are not and the only way hey can become one is after living here for 5 years or something, assuming they are not deported before then.. so how since its going to take a minimum of 5 years.. how is it a fast track way to an EU passport or citizenship.. this may have been covered earlier in the thread so sorry if it has.

Hobbes

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
This link details some of the Nigerian dimension to the involvement of organised crime by Nigerians, including the forgery of passports and work-visas. http://www.dicar.dk/events/smuggling.htm

That is the best you could find? Nothing about getting pregant to stay here. In fact the page says nothing about legally staying here...

- The Tourist Group: Investigations revealed that under this category, they women were tìricked and forced into prostitution through sponsored holiday trips to Europe by rich male friends popularly known as suggar-daddies and other mentors of the trafficking gang. Also involve in this category were those sponsored to participate in different international conferences accross Europe. The Big Trick: Over 90% of them entered European countries with tourist visas and when this expires, they remain as illegal immigrants, with their passports and return tickets taken away by their mentors, thereby falling prey to the wishes of the trafficking crime gang.

Try again. Post us Irish news where this has been shown. kthx.

You're learning MrPudding, at long last! Good on ya

You do know he was being sarcastic.

ishmael whale

Originally posted by bobbyjoe
ishmael whale, only getting back to you now got distracted.

bobbyjoe

Take all the time you want, but remember the way to refute the points I've made is by addressing them, not by addressing the points you wish I had made. The problem, as I have clearly stated several times, is that the present wording in the Constitution, intended only to guarentee Northern Irish citizenship rights, can be availed of by people with no particular interest in Irish citizenship other than as a device to gain residency elsewhere.

As I have clearly stated, I am not making any case relating to 'imaginary hoards', and despite this being pointed out to you already you persist in refuting that point, because it is refutable, rather than the point I am making, which you presumably cannot refute.

You ask why should we deny citizenship rights to people for no discernable reason. Fine, we could just put a form up on a website and allow anyone on the globe with internet access to become an Irish citizen by returning it by e mail. Or we could do what the other 170 odd political units in the world do, and have a range of reasons why someone qualifies as a citizen. Why we would include 'no particular connection to Ireland, but wants to obtain residency in another EU State' in this list is a mystery to me, which no-one has yet explained to me, and a flat assertion about birth alone being a reason does not bridge the gap.

SoulSurgeon

By saying `abusers` I mean pregant women who enter to Ireland for a short period of time with a sole purpose to give birth, so their child would become an Irish and EU citizen. And by the way all they want is to ensure better future for their kids.

As I said before one country can take in only certain number of migrants or to help only certain number of people in need. I don`t think there is an ideal solution for this problem (talking about poverty in Third World and Africa that force people to migrate to EU, etc) and if there is one it`s one world one nation, and everyone support each other So we should look for the best possible approach.

Talking about Chen case, only people with sufficient means can receive permision to reside and in case if ECJ will uphold the AG Tizzano opinion I am sure that national courts make sure that person in question really have funds. Also the question I have does this permison entitle one to work or is he still in need of work permit if he decides to work in respective EU state?

If numbers start to rise UK and Irish border guards are to send pregnant women , ( no matter what is their financial situation) than are nationals of certain non EEA countries whose citizens abused Irish jus soli principle in recent past, back home or don`t issue them visas in the first place- basis for decison is that instead of visiting UK or Ireland as tourist they probably have another intentions.


Once in consitution automatic right to the citizenship by birth is guaranteed and if it`s in hands of Department of Justice and Goverment one can only guess what kind of amendments will follow. Just look at the way referendum was organised and how Department of Justice failed to handle claims for asylum in the fast and efficient manner. Would I trust them to decide on the citizenship issues? So far my answer is no.


All the best,

SoulSurgeon.

MadsL

Fine, we could just put a form up on a website and allow anyone on the globe with internet access to become an Irish citizen by returning it by e mail.

You mean like this one...

http://www.uslawfirm.com/

Oh, sorry...that's the one for 3rd generation Americans with credit cards :rolleyes:

arcadegame2004

Originally posted by SoulSurgeon
Goverment saying that there is a loophole in the system, but what they are proposing is a completely new system, where citizenship will be based primarily on bloodline. And this is major change not a minor amendment

SoulSurgeon, you are wrong to argue that there is no blood aspect to our citizenship laws. This is nonsense.

At the present time, the jus-sanguine aspect of our law involves Irish parents being able to pass Irish citizenship onto their foreign children and grandchildren.

I firmly believe in jus-sanguine. And i want it to be the predominant basis for Irish citizenship. It is the only way to ensure that our Health-Service isn't flooded with citizenship tourists. Our hospitals are already under siege and the siege will hopefully be lifted on June 11th.

SoulSurgeon, your references to "solutions" like "a proper immigration policy" is just as vague as something the Labour Party would say. No substance.

You will have to think of something a LOT better than that if you're going to shift the majority in this country in favour of this measure.

MadsL

Anything to do with FF??? Nah, clearly must be those pesky asylum seekers with all that 'flooding' and 'swamping' not to mention the 'seige'... :rolleyes:

The financial crisis at one of the country's busiest hospitals, the Mater in Dublin, appears to be worsening, following the announcement of staff cuts and further bed closures.

Temporary staff are expected to be told by the hospital today that they are being laid off. Furthermore no cover will be provided for sick or maternity leave.

Meanwhile a 22-bed ward, which was closed last week, is to remain closed for a second week, while a further 50 beds appear to be under threat of closure also.

The crisis has been slammed by Opposition parties, who have asked for the immediate intervention of the Health Minister, Micheal Martin.

"There is a clear cash crisis in Irish hospitals. That the Government can justify expenditure on two new government jets, yet see hospital wards closed is an absolute outrage", said the Labour Party's health spokesperson, Liz McManus.

The problems facing the Mater are not unique however, with similar budgeting problems facing Beaumont Hospital and St James's, Ms McManus added.

Senior staff at the hospital were recently told that the hospital's budget would have to be reduced by 10%. However according to Fine Gael's Health spokesperson, Olivia Mitchell, such a move will have 'catastrophic effects'.



http://www.irishhealth.com/?level=4&id=4705

Frank Grimes

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
Our hospitals are already under siege and the siege will hopefully be lifted on June 11th.

You know, I heard something somewhere (I'm not going to bother showing evidence) that besides these sponger foreigners, there are mostly sick people in hospitals!
Our health system is being slowly destroyed by these so-called "treatment" tourists, who think they can just waltz into our hospitals and get treated for whatever "illness" they are suffering from!
I think it's about time that this shocking abuse of our precious health system is put to an end.
Imagine the idea that people with medical conditions (such as actually going into labour) might want to be treated in one of our hospitals!
I propose a new referendum which will hopefully enshrine the rights of only healthy people to go to our hospitals.

arcadegame2004

Non-EU nationals who are coming here pregnant to give birth are only doing it to get citizenship for their babies and to use them as legal pawns in a citizenship legal battle, like Men Levette Chen did. Most are NOT here on work-permits, according to Paul Byrne in the Irish Examiner yesterday. They are citizenship tourists, Frank.

I am asking why would they travel here over so many countries to give birth in Ireland and claim asylum? It's naturally to stay here.

Oh and MadSL, may I add something for your benefit?

Your figures on asylum, besides being supersede by Chen and April/May, fail to take into account, besides those asylum-seekers giving birth to get Irish citizenship for their babies, those OTHER types of citizenship-tourists. I mean of course, the Chen types who fly in one day to give birth then fly out back to the UK or other EU states where they had claimed asylum, to use their babies as legal pawns as Chen did.

Why should the Irish taxpayer and Health-Service have to bear the burden these citizenship-tourists place upon it!

Frank Grimes

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
I am asking why would they travel here over so many countries to give birth in Ireland and claim asylum? It's naturally to stay here.

They've obviously heard that people here welcome forgeiners with open arms, I know if I was a "non-national" I'd feel pretty welcome here.

BTW, when our health system doesn't magically become perfect after a Yes vote (if it goes that way), how will you explain it then?
Should treatment be limited to the "pure" Irish people perhaps?

MadsL

Why should the Irish taxpayer and Health-Service have to bear the burden these citizenship-tourists place upon it!

They don't. Non-EU citizens pay for their own treatment or their health insurance does. Economically speaking, they are net income for the country.

Most are NOT here on work-permits, according to Paul Byrne in the Irish Examiner yesterday.

Why have you not responded to the thread you posted concerning that article. Paul Byrne did not present this evidence in his original report, nor had he given ANY evidence other than his opinion. Why are you continuing to trot out this guy when I have destroyed any credibilty in the thread YOU started, but have yet to respond to.
If this was such a problem - why did Paul Byrne find almost no evidence in his original report to the IMJ???
Report

arcadegame2004

MadsL here is the link you asked for:


http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=9&si=1170554&issue_id=10785

"Report backs up maternity crisis" by Jim Cusack, of the Sunday Independent.

Notice how the Masters clearly warn of a crisis, and warn that a fourth Dublin Maternity Hospital might have to be built due to the pressures caused by non-national births.

Oh and Frank, I sure agree that they would feel "welcome"! Why wouldn't they? Free houses, cars etc.

Frank Grimes

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
Oh and Frank, I sure agree that they would feel "welcome"! Why wouldn't they? Free houses, cars etc.

What is it you have against foreign people exactly?

arcadegame2004

MadsL, you are only referring to unbooked non-nationals. But this report was not solely formulated by Dr.Byrne. 3 doctors formulated it and naturally, they too would have had to agree to its contents. Some of them may have feared being labelled as "racists" if they were as open as Paul Byrne was the night before last.

Also, what about booked non-nationals who are giving birth solely to get Irish citizenship for their babies?

Even non-nationals arriving here who are in the early stages of pregnancy know that their babies will get Irish citizenship. They are coming here pregnant with that goal, and I feel we must stop them from abusing the Irish people in this way.

arcadegame2004

Originally posted by Frank Grimes
What is it you have against foreign people exactly?

Nothing! I have nothing against people solely on the grounds on them being foreign. I have friends who are foreign. I have NOTHING against the Filipino nurses and others who took the LEGAL route. They came here to work. They came here to fill skills-shortages in the Irish economy, and the country owes them a debt of gratitude for doing the jobs that sufficient numbers of Irish people would not.

Sadly, far too many other non-nationals are not following their example and we must put the foot down.

Frank Grimes

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
I have friends who are foreign. I have NOTHING against the Filipino nurses and others who took the LEGAL route.

So you don't begrudge the free houses and cars that they get then?

MadsL

Despite the February 2003 Supreme Court judgement denying parents the right to automatic citizenship, the numbers of pregnant women coming here actually increased last year. The document shows that the number of births to non-nationals in Dublin's three maternity hospitals rose from 4,440 in 2002 (before the Supreme Court judgement) to 5,471 in 2003.

More meaningless non-national figures.

The arrival of women in such late stages of pregnancy and the increasing numbers infected with hepatitis, HIV and syphilis has been causing crises in the hospitals for the past three years.

Oh, so now hepatitis, HIV and syphilis are pregnant non-national problem. A few years ago people were blaming gay men. Glad we sorted that out.

The article quotes the actual text of the letter...

"We are writing to update you on what is currently happening in three Dublin maternity hospitals. Many women who have low-risk pregnancies are being allocated housing and given access to maternity care in areas other than Dublin.

"Unfortunately, the Department of Social Welfare and the welfare officers pay women their entitlements at 32 weeks of pregnancy. This allows them to relocate to Dublin and they arrive into any of the three Dublin maternity hospitals in labour, having received no antenatal care and we have no access to important medical information such as their HIV status. This severely compromises our ability to deliver care.

"We cannot emphasise strongly enough the importance of a unified approach by the various Government departments in dealing with this problem.

"If both the Department of Justice and Department of Health recognise the difficulties of retaining many thousands of women in Dublin then the Department of Social Welfare needs to ensure that welfare payments are not being made available until after the delivery of the baby and that they can only be claimed in the region where accommodation and medical services are being provided. We hope that you will be able to do something in terms of co-ordinating the Government's approach to this problem," the letter stated.

So the masters complained about Social Welfare procedure and the Government called a referendum on citizenship??? Huh? No mention of non-nationals or asylum seekers.

The doctors' plea for Government action includes the rider that if the present trends were to continue, Dublin would need a fourth maternity hospital.

Trends like the rising Irish birth rate perhaps?

According to the CSO's yearly summary report, 60,500 births were registered in Ireland in 2002, which is the highest birth rate seen here in 15 years.

source

In 2002 the Dublin maternity hospitals had 1,641 non-EU mothers and last year this rose to 2,670.

Less than 3% of births in 2002 then, and a little over 4% in 2004 :dunno: shocker!

Ireland currently has the highest birth rate in the EU at 14.6 births per 1,000 people.

source

MadsL

what about booked non-nationals who are giving birth solely to get Irish citizenship for their babies?

what about them. Post a source that gives the numbers of these women. Stop waving non-national around. That bone is well chewed.

arcadegame2004

Less than 3% of births in 2002 then, and a little over 4% in 2004 shocker!

No because you are implying that the non-national births in Dublin constitute the only non-national births in the country. More accurately you could say that non-national births in Dublin constitute 4% of total NATIONAL births.

What about births to non-nationals in the rest of the country?

21% of non-national births outside of Dublin were to non-nationals.

We're talking about 15,000 then I'd say.

MadsL

21% of non-national births outside of Dublin were to non-nationals.

Eh?

26% of trees are trees???