How will you vote in the Citizenship referendum?

sceptre

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
We are not under any obligation to turn Irish people into a minority in their own country just to please a rabble of loony-lefties whose policies in this direction have led to the rise of the Far-Right in Austria, France, Belgium and the Netherlands.

This all you've got left when everyone on both sides of the argument has taken time out to point that whatever "supporting documentation" you've got is fatally flawed or worse than useless? The loony-lefties and the Tiber foaming with blood? I warned you to go back to basics two hundred of your space-posts ago. Wanna move on with this or go back to that?

MadsL

Far-Right in Austria, France, Belgium and the Netherlands.

you missed out Britain, Denmark, Italy, Switzerland and Norway...

And your point is...???

Surely you have just made a case for keeping our citizenship laws as they stand as we are 'the only EU country..' as we have no Far-right. (or do the PDs count???)

Frank Grimes

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
We are not under any obligation to turn Irish people into a minority in their own country just to please a rabble of loony-lefties whose policies in this direction have led to the rise of the Far-Right in Austria, France, Belgium and the Netherlands.

No-one is suggesting we "turn Irish people into a minority".
One thing, do people who use the term "loony-lefties" think others are actually offended by this?
I'd rather be called a "loony" than be a right wing bigot.

MrPudding

Originally posted by sceptre

Now I've pointed this out twice you either get to provide a link to actual text or to pipe down before everyone starts laughing at you. Your call.


edited for typos

ooops. Too late!

MrP

bobbyjoe

Reason has left the building.

Out of interest Arcadegame have you ever had a really bad experience with a non national or what happened?
Done much travelling? (in countries other than Ireland)
Just wondering where your attitude comes from?

bonkey

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
We are not under any obligation to turn Irish people into a minority in their own country just to please a rabble of loony-lefties whose policies in this direction have led to the rise of the Far-Right in Austria, France, Belgium and the Netherlands.

a) So how exactly did LEFTwing people give rise to the RIGHTwing people in these countries?

b) No-ones asking anyone to turn the irish people into a minority, but apparently the level of intellectual honesty required in terms of not presenting facts you already know to be bull**** is beyond you.

jc

earwicker

Just a guess, but perhaps he was implying that the so-called "looney-leftie" policies provoke right-wing backlashes against the newer immigrant populations?

But maybe I'm reading into this too much.

MadsL

So given that we have this 'loophole' that is being 'abused'...shouldn't Ireland have one of the strongest Far-right parties in Europe. And we have a grand total of ... none. (unless you count the idiots at stormfront)

arcadegame2004

Originally posted by MadsL
Arcade, can I ask you about this one? Are you really making the point for positive action. So that an employer would HAVE to employ an Irish citizen over an EU citizen if a suitable Irish citizen applied for a job?

I am advocating that we pursue policies which only allow non-EU nationals to work for companies in Ireland as long as there is insufficient Irish labour with the relevant skills for fulfill the job requirements. Indeed that is the basis upon which the work-permits system operates.

Originally posted by Earwicker
Just a guess, but perhaps he was implying that the so-called "looney-leftie" policies provoke right-wing backlashes against the newer immigrant populations?

Correct Earwicker, and I don't want that.

arcadegame2004

MadsL, it's only a matter of time unles we vote "Yes" such will the resentment that ultimately builds up be.

MadsL

I speak English, so I am having trouble with your last post. Perhaps you could rephrase your point.

On the previous question

only allow non-EU nationals to work for companies in Ireland as long as there is insufficient Irish labour with the relevant skills for fulfill the job requirements. Indeed that is the basis upon which the work-permits system operates.

This is not the basis on which the work-permits system operates.

1. ANY EU worker is entitled to work ANYWHERE in the EU. Or are you suggesting that we withdraw from the EU. To employ Irish in preference to other EU workers is illegal.

2. There are a long list of professions which are excluded from the work permit system. you will find them listed at www.entemp.ie.

So you withdraw your previous statements about Irish being employed first.
(don't make me find them...)

Trebor

i have tried to find the average time an asylum application takes, inculding appeals, anyone know?

MadsL

http://www.entemp.ie./labour/workpermits/guidelines.htm

bonkey

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
I am advocating that we pursue policies which only allow non-EU nationals to work for companies in Ireland as long as there is insufficient Irish labour with the relevant skills for fulfill the job requirements.

Indeed that is the basis upon which the work-permits system operates..

arcade, you do remember amidst all of this frenzy what it is you are actually voting for? Its a question of whether or not children of non-nationals born on the island are entitled to citizenship or not.

If we grant them citizenship, then they are EU Nationals by definition and there's no problem relating to your wants. They will be legally as "EUropean" as you or I, and therefore do not threaten giving rise to any situation where they are taking jobs from EUropeans.

Its only if we don't grant them citizenship (by voting yes) that there might be a problem, as referendum may open the door for legislation, which in turn could change the system so that it doesn't work as it does at present, and instead gives these non-EU-nationals-despite-being-born-in-the-EU special rights like the right to work, the right to residency, etc. without the right to being a citizen.

Yes, its incredibly far-fetched and really nothing but scaremongering, but its identical to one of your pieces of "logic" regarding what the Chen judgement might[ mean.

So ultimately, your position should have to be to oppose
the referendum, if it is the working rights of natonals vs. non-nationals you are concerned about as you say.

jc

Correct Earwicker, and I don't want that.

Instead, you want to short-cut the loonyleft giving rise to the reprisals, and just take care of the immigrants yourself, thus doing the far-right's job for them.

Sir, you around me with how far ahead you have thought through your arguments.

jc

arcadegame2004

Well Bonkey, Dail Eireann had the powers to legislate on citizenship from 1921-998 and were you complaining then? Did the Dail bring in nightmarish laws on citizenship then? No.

ArthurDent

AG2004:
"Ireland as we of today would surely have her: not free merely, but Gaelic as well; not Gaelic merely, but free as well."
Padraig Pearse, AUGUST 1, 1915

Ah so this is where you stand, eh? Well let's just get out of the EU altogether - don't want any of those nationalities adding to our Gaelic gene pool do we.

Care to define Gaelic for us - I'm pretty sure most of the population won't fit into it..............

Typedef

Arcadegame2004.

I'm still wondering if you have any intention or proof of the statement you made earlier that asylum seekers are getting free houses?

It seems to be one of the standard *completely* misinformed diatribe statements, that Yes exponents have come up with, without a *shred* of evidence to support it.

Why not just be honest and admit that the 'free houses' nonsense is a bigoted, racist claim, used to whip up xenophoic sentiments against the supposed *legions* of asylum seekers defrauding the State?

Plainly what I fail to understand is how, less then 1000 women and babies born in this country to asylum seekers, taking 1000 as a random figure I just invented is *such* a huge threat to the welfare fo the State, when one compares the figures of joblessness in an economy such as Ireland's which is *crying out* for people to fill jobs?

Explain to me how it's ok for tens of thousands of Irish people to leech the welfare state, but, how it's not ok for an asylum seeker to have a baby in this country and for that baby to be a citizen, without claiming *unless you can prove it* that asylum seekers have been getting free houses and cars.

sceptre

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
Well Bonkey, Dail Eireann had the powers to legislate on citizenship from 1921-998 and were you complaining then? Did the Dail bring in nightmarish laws on citizenship then? No.

We've had this one out before in another thread (from you) and it didn't really go anywhere. You directed the same question at gubugirl back then and it'll get the same answer from me: I was pretty uncomfortable with the pre-98 constitutional position which, for example, didn't guarantee my citizenship, despite the fact that I was born here, I've lived in this country my entire life and don't in fact know of any ancestors of mine who didn't. If I spoke Irish, carried a hurley and voted FF just once I'd squarely meet any convoluted definition of Irishness that even Justin Barrett or the ICP could come up with and my citizenship was subject to the whim of legislation. I always saw this as a pretty bad thing and in fact I was complaining then.

You could always rehash this one in the thread you originally knocked this ball out in...
(as I said in that thread, I'm not pushed about which side of the argument people are on as long as they don't dramatically mislead)

Meanwhile, any news on those free houses that black people get?

TacT

Arcadegame2004, you still have not answered an important question relating to your case. Do you believe they are getting free cars and houses? And where is the proof of this claim? What is your problem with foreigners coming into the country? They're coming from all over the rest of Europe anyway, just as we are going everywhere else in Europe, the way it was intended and agreed to be by the masses and people in power within Europe which we agreed to.

Where is the problem? Why would you vote yes to try and stop the natural progression that is happening within Europe at the moment and at the same time, making a nice mix in a gene pool (ours) that definitely needs it?
We need these people to fill important job positions so it's hardly logical to turn them away when they're needed as much as the next person or do you simply not see them as people? What do you see them as, leeches? Well then, let's start proving your points if that's your view and stance?

bonkey

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
Well Bonkey, Dail Eireann had the powers to legislate on citizenship from 1921-998 and were you complaining then? Did the Dail bring in nightmarish laws on citizenship then? No.

Ahh yes. But arcade...the ECJ hasn't brought in any nightmarish laws either, but it hasn't stopped you ranting and foaming on about how they might.

I just used your approach and ignored that and argued that - in actual fact - there is no way to be sure other than to vote to ensure out constitution doesn't give them this power. Much like you did when you said the only way to be sure was to vote Yes.

Its interesting to note that you recognise how pathetically weak an argument it is when the same logic is used to present a reversed case.

jc

bonkey

Originally posted by Typedef
Why not just be honest and admit that the 'free houses' nonsense is a bigoted, racist claim, used to whip up xenophoic sentiments against the supposed *legions* of asylum seekers defrauding the State?

Because it would mean it could no longer be mis-presented as a "reason" to vote yes?

jc

TacT

and he's so stubborn he'll just blindly go and vote yes because he thinks he's right, despite not being able to answer an array of awfully simple questions or backup any of his points with factual proof. Vote no people, make sure people like arcadegame don't make the wrong decision for our country because they don't understand what they're voting for, but they will because that is what they believe and some guy down the pub told me this guy got a free house and he's not white! :rolleyes:

arcadegame2004

Where is the problem? Why would you vote yes to try and stop the natural progression that is happening within Europe at the moment and at the same time, making a nice mix in a gene pool (ours) that definitely needs it?

So you tacitly admit then that our citizenship laws encourage pregnant women to come here to claim citizenship for their babies? Otherwise why would you call a "Yes" vote an attempt to do that?

Why does our gene pool "need" it?

Also, look at the race-riots in the UK. I for one do not want something like that happening here thank you very much. Look at the riots between Kurdish and Turkish immigrants in Germany. I do not want that here.

I also want to add that regarding your points, TacT, oin immigrant-labour, I reply that we ONLY need immigrant labour to fill skills-shortages. What we do NOT want is for them to get jobs in areas of the economy where there are no skills-shortages. If the latter happened then Irish workers would be less attractive because non-EU nationals from the Third World will naturally work for less.

We already have a mechanism for allowing immigrant labour to come here to work in those sectors of the economy that experience skills-shortages. It's called the work-permit. Someone here said that some kinds of employment are exampt from the work-permit but if that is true, it's because skills-shortages do not exist by and large in those areas of employment.

The advantage of the work-permit system is that the potential worker only gets to come to Ireland IF the job involved is in an area of industry subject to skills-shortages. Asylum-seekers are not allowed to work so I fail to see what asylum-seekers and less still babies getting citizenship has to do with the issue of skills-shortages. I for one am opposed to letting them work.

Why? Because unlike the applicant for a work-permit, who is not in this country until their application is approved, the asylum-seeker is already here. Hence, their presence here is not contingent on them only working in a job in an industry experiencing skills-shortages, unlike the work-permit applicant. Thus, they would constitute cheap labour that would compete with Irish people for jobs. Hence we lose our jobs. I like that not.

It is a typical strain of the Left that they try to portray their vision as "natural" or "inevitable". It is also undemocratic. Let the people decide on June 11th whether it is "inevitable" or not. I call for a "Yes" vote.

bonkey

Originally posted by TacT
Vote no people,

Well, at the risk of surprising people....I disagree.

Vote whatever way you believe is right, but before doing so make sure you have given the issue the attention and thought worthy of however significant you feel it is.

And always remember....the order in which you should (though many apparently don't) do things is :

- learn
- consider
- decide
- vote

jc

arcadegame2004

For once I agree with you Bonkey.

MadsL

Arcade. Asylum seeker are not her to work, but to claim refuge from intolerable situations. What are you going to do? Send them back?

arcadegame2004

Originally posted by MadsL
Asylum seeker are not her to work, but to claim refuge from intolerable situations. What are you going to do? Send them back?

Intolerable conditions in the UK or France before they arrived here? Hmmmm....

TwoShedsJackson

Except your approach would appear to be

- Scaremonger
- Ignore anyone who disagrees with or questions you
- Vote

sceptre

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
Let the people decide on June 11th whether it is "inevitable" or not. I call for a "Yes" vote.

I'm pretty sure the result on June 11 will be a yes but I rather doubt that you've converted a single person through attempting to mislead here as you have. Again with the rivers of blood stuff I see.

arcadegame2004

Except your approach would appear to be

No I leave that to the "No" side.:D