How will you vote in the Citizenship referendum?

Tuars

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
Thus, they would constitute cheap labour that would compete with Irish people for jobs. Hence we lose our jobs. I like that not.

Yeah, me neither. I'd rather get ripped off my own people then get a better deal from a more competitive jobs market. Where are your PD heroes now? You're a bit of a communist behind it all, aren't you?

PS The referendum addresses none of the issues you're waffling on about . It will prevent a statistically insignificant number of people in very special circumstances from becoming citizens (aside from those affected by the unintended side effects, that is) and have little effect on broad immigration policy.

Trebor

if the asylum appeal process takes more than 4 years which i have heard of some cases lasting this long then voting yes won't matter as they will be here for the 4 years and be eligible for citizenship anyway or am i reading that wrong?

sceptre

Originally posted by Trebor
if the asylum appeal process takes more than 4 years which i have heard of some cases lasting this long then voting yes won't matter as they will be here for the 4 years and be eligible for citizenship anyway or am i reading that wrong?

Naw, you're readnig that wrong. Time spent while waiting for the process to be completed doesn't count.

Meh

Originally posted by Trebor
if the asylum appeal process takes more than 4 years which i have heard of some cases lasting this long then voting yes won't matter as they will be here for the 4 years and be eligible for citizenship anyway or am i reading that wrong?

I'm afraid you are:

http://www.oasis.gov.ie/moving_country/migration_and_citizenship/becoming_an_irish_citizen_through_naturalisation.html
Certain periods of residence may be excluded from the reckoning when calculating periods of residence in the State. These are periods when your presence in the State was not properly documented or (in certain cases) periods covered by a permission to remain that was for study purposes or while having a claim for asylum examined.

MadsL

Intolerable conditions in the UK or France before they arrived here? Hmmmm....

And you have the evidence of this...





...of course not.

arcadegame2004

No Trebor, It's like this. The baby may get Irish citizenship anyway if the mother has been here for 3 years BEFORE the birth. If she gives birth before then then the baby doesnt get citizenship under the referednum proposals.

MadsL

So a brother and a sister may have different citizenship rights, but be born in the same country. That's logical.

You haven't answered the question about free houses btw...

SoulSurgeon

Someone here said that some kinds of employment are exampt from the work-permit but if that is true, it's because skills-shortages do not exist by and large in those areas of employment.

Hehe, that`s some logic


All the best,

SoulSurgeon.

arcadegame2004

Originally posted by Tuars
It will prevent a statistically insignificant number of people in very special circumstances from becoming citizens (aside from those affected by the unintended side effects, that is) and have little effect on broad immigration policy.

I disagree. Today in the Irish Sun, Dr.Mick Gerry of the National Maternity Hospital of the Rotunda, Dublin, states that 30% of the mothers in the hospital are non-EU nationals who arrive off the ferry and go straight to the hospitals practically in labour. This chaos must end.

Vote Yes.

TacT

So much for an answer then, nothing but more bush beating there arcade....

bonkey -- which is exactly how I settled on a no, finally. Not by listening to falsified stories/scare mongering and exactly what twoshedsjackson has said there.

Arcade, if you are so set on getting everyone to vote YES, don't you find it just a little ridiculous that you yourself don't even understand the implications/consequences of it but rather, have some botched up view derived from god knows/who knows where that you're trying to get people to understand so they too will vote yes, when in fact -- everything you've told them is fabricated/scare mongering/exaggerated personal findings from some statistics or other you had a look at in your own spare time and drew your own conclusions on? That worries me a little and, I find it scarier than the scaremongering you've come out with on this thread.

TacT

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
I disagree. Today in the Irish Sun, Dr.Mick Gerry of the National Maternity Hospital of the Rotunda, Dublin, states that 30% of the mothers in the hospital are non-EU nationals who arrive off the ferry and go straight to the hospitals practically in labour. This chaos must end.

Vote Yes.

OH FOR GODSAKE, ITS THE SUN FOR CRYING OUT LOUD!
I'm off to shoot myself, I can't believe I even bothered arguing or questioning you in the first place :rolleyes:

arcadegame2004

Nice to hear on Prime Time that there is a majority in Dublin intending to vote "Yes", with 53% for , 33% against and 14% dunno.

TwoShedsJackson

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
I disagree. Today in the Irish Sun,

Truly a journal of record.

TacT

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
Nice to hear on Prime Time that there is a majority in Dublin intending to vote "Yes", with 53% for , 33% against and 14% dunno.

It's also really nice to know that this is more than likely the case due to misinformation and people believing the codswollop from such rock solid sources as The Star and The Sun newspapers, will you ever answer the question and stop changing the subject? Answer the question(s)!

My official figures show 53% are voting yes because they think it means no or have heard some punter down the pub saying vote yes or we lose our jobs and we might get free houses and cars too! 33% have half a brain with which to deduce fact from fiction and 14% are incapable of making decisions for themselves and thus won't bother voting

MadsL

I've just thought, I'm a non-national, where can I get my 'free house' - really, where do I sign?

Nice to hear on Prime Time that there is a majority in Dublin intending to vote "Yes", with 53% for , 33% against and 14% dunno

Really - if this is such a clear cut case then I would have thought that would have been a worrying low %

The Referendum Commission has reported widespread confusion among voters about the citizenship referendum.

http://www.online.ie/news/viewer.adp?article=3121840

Arcade, I wonder would you count as one of the 'confused'. Oh, no you have the good old Irish Sun to keep you informed. By the way the master of the Rotunda is http://www.rotunda.ie/information/staff.html Dr M. Geary and the same story in the Examiner has "Ambulances regularly bring heavily pregnant non-nationals from the airport runway to one of country's main maternity hospitals. " Dr Geary claims ""Ambulances have come directly from the airport in recent years. We have certainly had a couple of cases in the last number of months,"

....a couple of cases = wow, national crisis this, then.

Recent years...last number of months = who talks like this? How many months.

Dr Geary goes on to point out.."We see a significant number who have just turned up on Irish soil." And is unable to give a figure to this.

Victor

Originally posted by MadsL
I've just thought, I'm a non-national, where can I get my 'free house' - really, where do I sign?

Oi! Back off, my niece was born in England, so I'm ahead of you in the queue.

By the way the master of the Rotunda is http://www.rotunda.ie/information/staff.html Dr M. Geary and the same story in the Examiner has "Ambulances regularly bring heavily pregnant non-nationals from the airport runway to one of country's main maternity hospitals. " Dr Geary claims ""Ambulances have come directly from the airport in recent years. We have certainly had a couple of cases in the last number of months," ..... Dr Geary goes on to point out.."We see a significant number who have just turned up on Irish soil." And is unable to give a figure to this.

I wonder how many of these were trans-Atlantic flights and the people had no intention of coming to Ireland.

MadsL

Now, the truth as to what a nation’s nationality is, what a nation’s freedom, is not to be found in the statute-book of the nation’s enemy. It is to be found in the books of the nation’s fathers.

Pádraic H. Pearse
1st February, 1916

Sounds like a plea for a NO vote to me. Don't do what the Brits do, do what our fathers did.

Typedef

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
It is a typical strain of the Left that they try to portray their vision as "natural" or "inevitable".

Predictably, every single demagouge in history has made lurid claims about (mostly) minorities, which are usually racist and bigoted, without a shred of evidence.

Quite simply you've been challenged to prove that refugees are getting free houses and cars, and completely shown the *real* agenda of your arguments, by delibrately *not* answering.

What this shows is that you *know* the argument is fraudulent, but won't admit that your racist view allowed you to accept and indeed extoll this argument without even bothering to check if it was true.

Moreover, having been called up to prove your claims and *not* done so, you have similarly proved that this debate *is* about racism, because when one removes the *evidence* presented (as you have just done, by not proving it) all that is left is the blind, proofless, foundationless vitriol.

Also, look at the race-riots in the UK. I for one do not want something like that happening here thank you very much. Look at the riots between Kurdish and Turkish immigrants in Germany. I do not want that here.

What exactly does this have to do with a citizenship referendum?

All those immigrants in Germany are there not on the basis of being asylum seekers, but, as being workers.

You've failed to reconcile your earlier lurid claim that asylum seekers were getting free cars and houses, perhaps you could tell me why denying citizenship to children born in this country stops race riots?

I think what you're trying to get at here is that there should be *no* forigeners in Ireland, legal, illegal, asylum seeker or (legal) immigrant as the Turks and Kurds are in Germany.

Since that is clearly your desire, be honest when your urge people to vote Yes and say that you want to see Ireland *white*, because you believe white people to be better and you similarly believe that asylum seekers and immigrants are *all* the same and will from the arguments you have put across, tear the country apart with defrauding of the Welfare State, cause race riots and ..... sponsor Al-Queda.

You have claimed all these things to date and the issue is so clearly murkery for you, I'm not sure you really *do* understand the difference between an asylum seeker, an immigrant worker or shock horror a foreigner on holiday here. To you, clearly all these people denote an underclass all ascribed with particular violent and/or subversionary qualites, based on race and nationality, and what that is, is the paragon of racism, xenophobia and bigoted mania.

I think that while your wild and unsubstanciated accusations would probably work on the majority of the pig faced racists that inhabit pubs across the nation, that, here, where everybody can scrutanise what you've written, you've *shown* yourself to be a bigot and you've also given me a real big reason, to vote against you.

arcadegame2004

Originally posted by Typedef
Moreover, having been called up to prove your claims and *not* done so, you have similarly proved that this debate *is* about racism, because when one removes the *evidence* presented (as you have just done, by not proving it) all that is left is the blind, proofless, foundationless vitriol.

Wrong. I have repeatedly posted evidence from Dr.Paul Byrne, and the minutes of the meetings of the Masters of the Rotunda with ministers. I have given links to Dept.of Justice documenatation about 58% of female asylum-seekers over the age of 16 beign pregnant on arrival. I have based my argument on fact.

There are 2 extreme positions you can take on the immigration debate. You can either be a zero-immigration person or someone who wants an open-door. The "No" side in this campaign fall into the latter category and I do NOT fall into the former. I had already said that I have no problem with the lega migratio nentail in the non-EU national work-permits system provided it is only used ot fill skills-shortages. The "No" side are the same bunch of lefties who, for years and years have been blasting about how any deportation at all of illegal immigrants or new laws to tightne up immigration laws are "racist" etc. It is they who are the extremists, not the "Yes" side.

Frank Grimes

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
The "No" side are the same bunch of lefties who, for years and years have been blasting about how any deportation at all of illegal immigrants or new laws to tightne up immigration laws are "racist" etc. It is they who are the extremists, not the "Yes" side.

You do know this referendum isn't about immigration?
Anyway, when has anyone said that deporting illegal immigrants is rascist? Or is this yet another one of your baseless lies?

arcadegame2004

You do know this referendum isn't about immigration?

Of course it's to do with immigration. It's to do with illegal immigrants abusing rhe system by turning up at our ports preggers.

Frank Grimes

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
Of course it's to do with immigration. It's to do with illegal immigrants abusing rhe system by turning up at our ports preggers.

So, voting Yes will stop people coming here illegally?

arcadegame2004

Well Frank it will remove a key part of the stimulus that causes them to come here pregnant and put pressure on our hospitals.

Frank Grimes

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
Well Frank it will remove a key part of the stimulus that causes them to come here pregnant and put pressure on our hospitals.

So you're saying all illegal immigrants are pregnant women?

Hobbes

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
Wrong. I have repeatedly posted evidence from Dr.Paul Byrne, and the minutes of the meetings of the Masters of the Rotunda with ministers. I have given links to Dept.of Justice documenatation about 58% of female asylum-seekers over the age of 16 beign pregnant on arrival. I have based my argument on fact.

Ok and can you point out where it mentions they get free houses+cars?

Typedef

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
Of course it's to do with immigration. It's to do with illegal immigrants abusing rhe system by turning up at our ports preggers.

I'm sorry you seem to have missed the pretext of this referendum.

The question is simply whether or not a person born on the island has a right to be a citzen whether or not their parents were citizens.

There is no caveat in that question which makes reference to immigration legal or illegal, nor asylum seekers.

Do you not understand that immigration and asylum seeking are two different things or are you really so reactionarily racist that you can't bring yourself to admit the difference?

Whether or not I believe that being born on the island is sufficent reason to be a citizen is irrelevant, since the argument to deny this right to people currently comes from arguments like the one above, which are ludicrous, unsubstanciated and at best represent the closest thing you have come up with vis-a-vis verifable figures to support your claims.

I notice you've stopped trying to convice people asylum seekers are being given free houses. However simply because some government patsy gets up on his government appointed high podium and invents some figures which blithely fit in with your racist vitriol, doesn't in fact make those facts true.

The supposed *facts* about Iraqi weapons of mass destruction was an utter fabrication, and I think with the patently false accusations you have made to date, you will have to do a whole lot better then claiming out of hand that 30% of babies being born in .. the Rotunda did you say, are being born in order to allow asylum seekers to stay in the country.

Asylum seekers are not the same as Immigrants and Immigrants are not the same as Illegal Immigrants, your bigoted and racist vitriol simply spurs me on to attempt to prevent this kind of blinkered idolatory defining the constitution of this Republic.

Clearly you don't care about the reasoned vote. You have an agenda, that agenda is hatred of non-white or foreign people and you will make any baseless claim, will lie, will invent figures in order to have your right wing white, foreigner hating, xenophobic castle.

Your claims are so right wing, reactionary and jaundiced that I almost wish you were making them about women, because *then* the media would *gore* your type of diatribe, as the throwback to Imperialist exclusionism and explotation that such *arguments* and *proof* always end up supporting.

I'm loathe to mention the likes of the BNP, Stormfront, the Klu Klux Klan and *other* isms of the genre, but, I find no difference between arcadegame's violent foreigner hatred and the *rationale* which supports those kinds of groups.

Honestly arcadegame do you frequent www.stormfront.org ?

arcadegame2004

Originally posted by Typedef
Clearly you don't care about the reasoned vote. You have an agenda, that agenda is hatred of non-white or foreign people and you will make any baseless claim, will lie, will invent figures in order to have your right wing white, foreigner hating, xenophobic castle.

RUBBISH!!!!!!!

And NO I have never even heard of Stormfront until it was brought up on this debate. NOT ONCE.

My agenda is not racist. I am NOT foreigner-hating. If I am foreigner-hating, then why have I specifically said UMPTEEN times that I am NOT opposed to legal-migration via work-permits to fill skills-shortages? Surely if I am a racist then I would be calling for those people to be removed from the State aswell?

Your post sets new standards in hysteria even given the existing hysteria of the left-dominated "No" campaign.

I find the Left's allegations of xenophobia all the more galling considering that SF and the Greens called for a "No" vote on the Nice Treaty ( a treaty I supported). I accused them at the time of beign xenophobic.

TwoShedsJackson

Wrong. I have repeatedly posted evidence from Dr.Paul Byrne

How many times do you need to be told that quoting a letter someone wrote to a paper is not evidence? It's getting pathetic now.

Hobbes

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
My agenda is not racist. I am NOT foreigner-hating. If I am foreigner-hating, then why have I specifically said UMPTEEN times that I am NOT opposed to legal-migration via work-permits to fill skills-shortages? Surely if I am a racist then I would be calling for those people to be removed from the State aswell?

You did say they should be removed some pages (or other thread ago). something along the lines of that Irish people should get priority.

Frank Grimes

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
Surely if I am a racist then I would be calling for those people to be removed from the State aswell?

A subtle racist is still a racist.