How will you vote in the Citizenship referendum?

arcadegame2004

People born here are Irish,...

That is YOUR opinion.

MadsL

That is YOUR opinion.

Actually that is the constitutional right (at the moment)

Why do I always have to correct your posts for accuracy?

pete

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
Their children will still get Irish citizenship provided they have worked here for years before the birth.

And this is supposed to be a positive thing for them how, exactly?

Raskolnikov

Originally posted by pete
The durty scrounging foreigners, wha?

Sure who'd have them.

Source: http://www.rte.ie/news/2004/0608/citizenship.html

There is provision for migrant workers who are not yet citizens to claim citizenship for their children.

http://www.justice.ie/80256E010039C5AF/vWeb/flJUSQ5ZJF5C-en/$File/Govtproposals.pdf

If someone has been here for at least three years or they've been granted an open-ended work permit they're covered. The only thing that concerns me about the ammendment is a migrant worker on a work permit of between two and less than three years. From the looks of it, their children are not entitled to citizenship.

Despite this, I'm voting Yes, even if we are replacing one evil for a lesser one.

* edited for typo

pete

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
And how many of the Filipino nurses do they represent?

I don't know, how many of the Filipino nurses do they represent?

Oh sorry - I keep mistaking you for some kind of joker. My mistake.

Without having the membership register of the League available to hand, I'd have to answer "They represent enough of them to be organising an Overseas Nurses Forum with the Irish Nursing Organisation."

pete

Originally posted by Raskolnikov
There is provision for migrant workers who are not yet citizens to claim citizenship for their children.

I've got news for you - there already are perfectly good provisions in place.

And please - nobody is "claiming citizenship for their children". It's not some bonus gift awarded for dropping a sprog in the right place - the child has citizenship as a right.


All this talk of "earning" citizenship... anyone seen Starship Troopers?

arcadegame2004

If we value our citizenship, then we should not give it away so lightly. That is to devalue our citizenship.

If you are born to Irish parents, then you have a sufficient connection to the country.

However, it is NOT on for people to do what Chen did, making a mockery of citizenship by traveling to the island of Ireland to give birth just to get (on her own admission) Irish citizenship for her child so she could get EU-residency for herself. SHe had no intention of even living here! So why should her child have Irish citizenship and children like her?

Non-nationals should have to demonstrate a sufficient connection to Ireland first. Let them work, not scrounge, if they want it so much.

Raskolnikov

Originally posted by pete
I've got news for you - there already are perfectly good provisions in place.

And please - nobody is "claiming citizenship for their children". It's not some bonus gidt awarded for dropping a sprog in the right place - the child has citizenship as a right.


All this talk of "earning" citizenship... anyone seen Starship Troopers?

Hold on there, I never once said they had to earn citizenship, I agree that Irish citizenship is a right to anyone who is entitled to it.

The reason why I said "claiming citizenship for their children" is because often migrants return home to their mother countries, they might not have chosen Irish citizenship for there child. I think and would hope that this amendment would protect the rights of any person who is a citizen or who was granted permission to be in this country.

Originally posted by pete

And please - nobody is "claiming citizenship for their children". It's not some bonus gift awarded for dropping a sprog in the right place - the child has citizenship as a right.

But they are by virtue of where they decide to go out of their way to have the baby.
Thats even true of Mrs Chen.
Some non nationals have it in their gift to , have that baby born anywhere and they choose Ireland.
Are you saying nobody absolutely nobody does that at the moment?
Even I allow that some would have their babies here as genuine asylum seekers, but you would have us believe that absolutely nobody does??
I think you are providing us here with an absolute that is not absolute at all.
Even maternity doctors who would be fairly neuetral on this subject would concede that there are asylum seekers arriving at maternity hospitals here with patient notes from hospitals in other E.U countries.

pete

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
Let them work, not scrounge, if they want it so much.

And how exactly is a baby meant to do that, then?

arcadegame2004

Oh Pete don't be so silly!

There wouldn't even BE a baby were it not for the fact that their parents are using them to get citizenship for their babies in Ireland to get EU-residency. Come on now! Why are 58% of female asylum seekers over 16 pregnant on arrival?!?!?!?

pete

Originally posted by Earthman
But they are by virtue of where they decide to go out of their way to have the baby.
Thats even true of Mrs Chen.
Some non nationals have it in their gift to , have that baby born anywhere and they choose Ireland.
Are you saying nobody absolutely nobody does that at the moment?
Even I allow that some would have their babies here as genuine asylum seekers, but you would have us believe that absolutely nobody does??
I think you are providing us here with an absolute that is not absolute at all.
Even maternity doctors who would be fairly neuetral on this subject would concede that there are asylum seekers arriving at maternity hospitals here with patient notes from hospitals in other E.U countries.

I'll try to spell this out for you as you seem to be missing the point:

I'm saying I don't care what the motives of the parent are. The amendment removes a right from children, not their parents.

Removing basic rights from newborn children is a bizarre way to go about implementing immigration policy. Why is this so hard to understand?

pete

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
Oh Pete don't be so silly!

There wouldn't even BE a baby were it not for the fact that their parents are using them to get citizenship for their babies in Ireland to get EU-residency. Come on now! Why are 58% of female asylum seekers over 16 pregnant on arrival?!?!?!?

Bollocks. Go back to stormfront.

edit: to elaborate - this is a completely paranoid, racist assumption, based on ignorance and prejudice that would be more at home on a one sided racist haven like stormfront than on a political discussion forum. And i also think it's bollocks.

pete

Originally posted by Raskolnikov
Hold on there, I never once said they had to earn citizenship, I agree that Irish citizenship is a right to anyone who is entitled to it.

The reason why I said "claiming citizenship for their children" is because often migrants return home to their mother countries, they might not have chosen Irish citizenship for there child. I think and would hope that this amendment would protect the rights of any person who is a citizen or who was granted permission to be in this country.

And what about those who have no choice in where they are born? Why are you punishing them?

arcadegame2004

Stormfront?!??!?! What have they got to do with this?!?!?! I have NEVER had anything to do with their evil racist website. How dare you link me with them.

Justin Barrett opposed the Nice Treaty and attended fascist rallies in Italy and Germany. Does that mean EVERYONE who voted no to that treaty is a fascist?

This is the same stuff trotted out by the "No" campaign. They can't win on factual arguments so they result to smears like "racist", "fascist" etc. All because we on the yeses want to bring our citizenship rules into line with the rest of Europe.

Ridiculous.

But typical.

pete

pop quiz

who said (and I quote):

"After all, it isn't the baby's fault that it was created, nor the economic/social situation of the parent."

pete

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
Stormfront?!??!?! What have they got to do with this?!?!?! I have NEVER had anything to do with their evil racist website. How dare you link me with them.

Justin Barrett opposed the Nice Treaty and attended fascist rallies in Italy and Germany. Does that mean EVERYONE who voted no to that treaty is a fascist?

This is the same stuff trotted out by the "No" campaign. They can't win on factual arguments so they result to smears like "racist", "fascist" etc. All because we on the yeses want to bring our citizenship rules into line with the rest of Europe.

Ridiculous.

But typical.

Do you or do you not want to discriminate against "non-irish" children? How would you describe it?

You might be surprised how much you have in common with them.

I wouldn't.

ps i did actually elaborate on my original post. I didn't actually call you a racist.

arcadegame2004

Pete, using your logic we would give Irish citizenship to millions of children of non-Irish parents if millions of Chinese or other non-EU nationals converged on Ireland. But how would we afford to house them etc.?

This system is insane!

pete

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
Pete, using your logic we would give Irish citizenship to millions of children of non-Irish parents if millions of Chinese or other non-EU nationals converged on Ireland. But how would we afford to house them etc.?

This system is insane!

Just like happened in America, you mean?

Oh wait. It didn't.

Why's that then, Ted?

You think maybe it's got something to do with them having an immigration policy? You know - one that assesses people, and lets them, you know, work and stuff?

Hmmm.

pete

By the way - how exactly do we get from 1,800 pregnant women to a quarter of the world's population?

pete

Originally posted by pete
pop quiz

who said (and I quote):

"After all, it isn't the baby's fault that it was created, nor the economic/social situation of the parent."

Anybody?

bobbyjoe

Arcadegame

millions of Chinese or other non-EU nationals converged on Ireland.

We're gonna need a sh1t load of rice and noodles.

Raskolnikov

Originally posted by pete
And what about those who have no choice in where they are born? Why are you punishing them?

For the first point, I think it's unfortunate for the child in question.

To the second point, I don't think they're being punished in anyway, the child can still claim citizenship in the country of the parent(s) origin.

Also, I believe it is the role of the government to protect the rights and welfare of it's citizens and people allowed to reside there, ahead of all others. Note, this applies to anyone wether they be immigrants from Nigeria to people on work permits from the Philipines, all should have equal rights. With the current situation of non-nationals coming into the country, I don't think that role of government is being fufilled.

Raskolnikov

Originally posted by pete

"After all, it isn't the baby's fault that it was created, nor the economic/social situation of the parent."

I don't know.

pete

Originally posted by Raskolnikov
For the first point, I think it's unfortunate for the child in question.

How compassionate.

To the second point, I don't think they're being punished in anyway, the child can still claim citizenship in the country of the parent(s) origin.

Oh really? Well let's see now...

We have a situation where, in response to a perceived wrong on the part of the parent (ie dropping a sprog where they're not wanted), you intend to deprive their little bun in the oven of their right to citizenship.

Which is as good a case study of "the sins of the father being visited on the son" as I've ever heard.

Also, I believe it is the role of the government to protect the rights and welfare of it's citizens and people allowed to reside there, ahead of all others. Note, this applies to anyone wether they be immigrants from Nigeria to people on work permits from the Philipines, all should have equal rights. With the current situation of non-nationals coming into the country, I don't think that role of government is being fufilled.

Why not?

pete

Originally posted by Raskolnikov
I don't know.

Give up?

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?postid=1644333#post1644333

Mickah

To be honest I haven't read all of the thread, only from about page 25 onwards. There is quite a huge amount of drivle and name calling going on but some very informative posts (sceptre to name one).

What really winds me up about this referendum is the lack of public debate and information. All I've seen is the referendum commission ads on TV.

What I know so far is that this change to the constitution is rushed. Always bad, even Mary Harney said it in the Dail.

Droves of Irish people left Ireland during the famine and worked abroad. We may not have had a huge welcome but we still got work and settled abroad. We should never forget our debt to other Nations.

I was going to vote Yes simply because I was left under the impression if we don't close this loop hole the maternity hospitals are going to be over-run. Now, I'm not so sure.

I don't believe the majority of asylum seekers and/or immigrants are here to sponge off the state, on the contrary I'd say most of them contribute greatly. The idea of impinging on their child's right to citizenship purely to stop a couple of thousand abusing the system seems excessive

For me the crux of the problem lies on how bad the "Fly to Ireland and get your EU/Irish passport" problem is.

Couple of questions:
1) Even if a child born to say a Filipino Nurse isn't immediately entitled to Irish citizenship, how long must they live here to get it?

2) A child born to a mother just flown in from wherever attains Irish/EU Citizenship. Does this or does this not entitle or strengthen the parent(s) case to EU/Irish citizenship?

Sorry if these quesitons have been addressed, but it was taking me ages to find a straight answer in the thread.

pete

Originally posted by Mickah
For me the crux of the problem lies on how bad the "Fly to Ireland and get your EU/Irish passport" problem is.

It's Irish passport, not EU.

Couple of questions:
1) Even if a child born to say a Filipino Nurse isn't immediately entitled to Irish citizenship, how long must they live here to get it?

2) A child born to a mother just flown in from wherever attains Irish/EU Citizenship. Does this or does this not entitle or strengthen the parent(s) case to EU/Irish citizenship?

Consider this statement:

"A child born in Ireland should be treated as an individual in their own right, regardless of their parents situation."

If you agree with this statement, vote no & maintain the right to citizenship status quo.

If you disagree, vote yes to remove their automatic right to citizenship.

Easy, really.

And if you're worried that voting no is the wrong thing to do - don't worry! The government will just ask the same question again in a few months if they're really serious about it.

Raskolnikov

Originally posted by pete
We have a situation where, in response to a perceived wrong on the part of the parent (ie dropping a sprog where they're not wanted), you intend to deprive their little bun in the oven of their right to citizenship.

At the moment, it's a right that has been gained through a loophole in Irish law. If the amendment is passed then the child won't be deprived of any right, not unless you view that right to be a basic human one. Therefore, no one is being deprived of any right to citizenship once the amendment is passed.

Originally posted by pete
Why?

Why is the role of the government not being fufilled? Taxpayers money and hospital beds are being taken up by the situation. I know the government squanders millions (if not billions) on other schemes, I acknowledge this and would assert that the government is not fufilling it's role correctly there too. With the proposed amendment, it should go some way to deterring non-nationals coming to the country to give birth and thus reduce the cost to the taxpayer.

MadsL

58% of female asylum seekers over 16 pregnant on arrival?!?!?!?

More disinformation. One that we have repeatedly corrected.yet you seem "congenitially incapable" of being accurate.

That statistic was "on application" NOT arrival. You have lied on other issues, don't make this another one. Stop it.