How will you vote in the Citizenship referendum?

MadsL

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
"What's all this ****e about 'Irish denied work by foreigners' Ireland's unemployment rate is one of the lowest in Europe!" (MadSL)

I am referring to what WOULD happen if we let uncontrolled cheap labour here (i.e. allowing employers to employ asylum-seekers REGARDLESS of whether a suitable Irish candidate was available).

God, I dunno. Maybe there would be (shock horror) economic growth...ask George W Bush...he seems to think that legalising illegal immigrants is a good idea.

Also let me disabuse you of the notion that Irish workers have ANY rights of preference in the recruitment process. They don't. Get it right. Irteland is part of the EU in case you had forgotten.

But let's indulge your fantasy for a moment. Withdraw from the EU and only employ Irish. Who is going to employ all the Irish that the UK, Germany, France and the rest of Europe deny work-permits to that come flooding back 'home'. Result, back to the high unemployment of the 80s.

MadsL

As such, it is clear that that the Supreme Court Judgement of last year denying automatic citizenship to the asylum-seeker parents of Irish born children has not deterred anyone.

arcadegame2000.

Therefore this referendum is a waste of time. QED.

arcadegame2004

"quote:

---

As such, it is clear that that the Supreme Court Judgement of last year denying automatic citizenship to the asylum-seeker parents of Irish born children has not deterred anyone.

---

arcadegame2000.

Therefore this referendum is a waste of time. QED."

Nonsense. One of the reasons they are continuing to come here is that citizenship still automatically goes to the child of the asylum-seeker giving birth on this island. That inevitably strengthens the mother's claim. The fact that she is no longer "guaranteed" citizenship herself does not detract from this.

Ryvita

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
Ryvita, while the parents MAY be deported, in reality VERY few are.

That's all well and good arcadegame but that has NOTHING to do with the referendum.

If this plays a part in whether or not a person is deported then you should be protesting about that specifically: "Just because your child is an irish citizen should not mean you automatically get citizenship/assylum here".

However, this referendum is about whether or not a child gets citizenship if they are born here and nothing else.

Ryvita

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
"quote:

---

As such, it is clear that that the Supreme Court Judgement of last year denying automatic citizenship to the asylum-seeker parents of Irish born children has not deterred anyone.

---

arcadegame2000.

Therefore this referendum is a waste of time. QED."

Nonsense. One of the reasons they are continuing to come here is that citizenship still automatically goes to the child of the asylum-seeker giving birth on this island. That inevitably strengthens the mother's claim. The fact that she is no longer "guaranteed" citizenship herself does not detract from this.

Can you back up this claim?

sleepwalker

a question


if a child is born here who's parents are both not Irish citizens is there any sort of application that can be made for the child to be granted citizenship if the parents have been residents in Ireland for a certain amount of years or whatever


on first glance of it i think ill be voting yes but i need to keep looking into it before i come to a definite decision. i expect it will be voted in though

sceptre

Originally posted by sleepwalker
if a child is born here who's parents are both not Irish citizens is there any sort of application that can be made for the child to be granted citizenship if the parents have been residents in Ireland for a certain amount of years or whatever

Assuming you mean after the referendum assuming the amendment gets passed (currently the child would automatically be a citizen), yes. Mentioned here (small text at end of post).

sixtysix

arcadegame2004
i suspect you are thoroughly enjoying this ding dong.
could you take some time to explain your vision of ireland and the irish.
when i was growing up there was a widespread view that to be irish was to vote fianna fail-play gaa-speak irish- and be a catholic. times have changed-and now there is diversity in irish society-how would you define being irish now?

Ryvita

Originally posted by sixtysix
when i was growing up there was a widespread view that to be irish was to vote fianna fail-play gaa-speak irish- and be a catholic. times have changed-and now there is diversity in irish society-how would you define being irish now?

Good point. I really think that's central to this referrendum.

Stark

(article 9.1.2) the loss of irish nationality or citizenship shall be determined in accordance with law.
(article 9.2) fidelity and loyalty to the nation are fundamental political duties of all citizens.

I don't think, coming over and getting knocked up so you can claim money off the state and contribute nothing back counts as fidelity and loyalty.

Gurgle

Yes: Illegal immigrants stay illegal for generations - Organized crime, people falling through the cracks (big gaping holes) in the system, poverty, exploitation, begging...

No: 2nd generation of illegal immigrants (mostly) become hard-working tax paying citizens.

Duh!

No.

This isn't going to affect the number of people illegally coming into the country. It affects their decendants and what options will be available to them in Ireland.

BuffyBot

when i was growing up there was a widespread view that to be irish was to vote fianna fail-play gaa-speak irish- and be a catholic. times have changed-and now there is diversity in irish society-how would you define being irish now?

Was there? That must of passed me by completely.

bobbyjoe

I'm voting no.
Whoever pops out of whoever and lands in Ireland is Irish as far as I'm concerned and deserves all the protection the state can give.
We have enough legislation already try enforcing it and process people in a timely manner instead of having them wait years. Don't go messing with the constitution to fix a very small problem.
If someone breaks the law Irish or non-national the Guards should deal with them.
If someone defrauds SW let them deal with them.

Why is it assumed foreigners will be scrounging off the SW system maybe one of these asylum seekers will become the doctor who saves one of our arses.

The Dublin Convention is an embarrassment having our name associated with it.

Ryvita

Originally posted by Stark
(article 9.1.2) the loss of irish nationality or citizenship shall be determined in accordance with law.
(article 9.2) fidelity and loyalty to the nation are fundamental political duties of all citizens.

I don't think, coming over and getting knocked up so you can claim money off the state and contribute nothing back counts as fidelity and loyalty.

The referrendum is about the child getting citizenship not the mother who got "Knocked up"!

ishmael whale

The situation is developing, to say the least, and the referendum seems timely. Commonsense suggests this loophole needs to be closed. There is really no case for leaving it open.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2004/0518/citizenship.html

Govt examines EU Court opinion

18 May 2004 14:52

The Department of Justice has said it is examining a preliminary opinion by the European Court of Justice that a Chinese woman and her Belfast-born child should be allowed to reside legally in the UK.

Lawyers for Man Levette Chen had argued that because her child was an Irish citizen, she should automatically be allowed to reside in another EU member state.
The UK immigration authorities rejected this but the European Court's Advocate General has upheld her argument.

A spokesman for the department said that if the court's final ruling were the same, it would have significant implications for Ireland and would strengthen the case in favour of June's citizenship referendum.

Victor

Originally posted by sixtysix
when i was growing up there was a widespread view that to be irish was to vote fianna fail-play gaa-speak irish- and be a catholic. times have changed-and now there is diversity in irish society-how would you define being irish now?

The view may have been there, but it was skewed and short-sighted. Neither Fianna Fáil, GAA not the Irish language ever had an "overall majority". Is my non-Catholic friend and less Irish because he isn't a Catholic? How many kids on the street actually played Gaelic football in a kickabout?

Redleslie

Originally posted by Victor
How many kids on the street actually played Gaelic football in a kickabout?

Well I did, it (football but not hurling) was/is very popular in my area (Finglas), I used to play for Erin's Isle. The popularity of GAA varies in different areas of the city depending on various factors I suppose. I went to CBS schools as well so catholicism was very much an intrinsic part of Irishness as far as I was concerned, until I went all "immature" and rejected it at age 14 or 15 or something.

bonkey

Here's an interesting case I did remember to copy off the AP News Feed when I saw it today. Thought it might be of interest to the discussion.

Sorry about the duff formatting, but I'm not going to fix it all by hand.

jc

BRUSSELS, Belgium (AP) A Chinese mother who traveled to
Europe to escape Beijing's «one child policy» won
influential legal backing Monday in her fight to be allowed
to live in Britain with her daughter.
Advocate General Antonio Tizzano of the European Court of
Justice said Man Lavette Chen and her 3-year-old daughter
Kunqian Catherine Zhu should be allowed to reside in
Britain under European Union laws, despite complaints from
British immigration authorities.
The case will now be considered by the full court based in
Luxembourg. Its judges tend to follow the advocate
general's opinion in about 80 percent of cases. A final
ruling is not expected for several months.
Already the mother of a boy born in 1998, Chen traveled to
Belfast, Northern Ireland, in 2000 to give birth to her
second child and avoid Chinese laws designed to ease
overpopulation fears by limiting couples to one child.
Although Northern Ireland is under British rule, Chen
acquired Irish nationality for her daughter under Irish
laws which offer citizenship to any child born on the
island of Ireland.
Citing European Union rules that allow citizens of one EU
country to live freely in any of the other member nations,
Chen and her daughter then moved to Britain and claimed
right of residence.
Their claim was rejected by the British Home Office, but
an appeals body referred the case to the EU's high court.
In his published opinion, Tizzano said «a young child who
is a national of a member state is entitled to reside in
another member state provided that he or she is covered by
sickness insurance and has sufficient resources.»
He noted that was the case for Catherine. Tizzano said
European rules on children's rights ensured that her mother
should be allowed to live with her.
Denying resident rights to Chen «would be manifestly
contrary to the interests of her daughter and would
contravene the principle of respect for family unity,» he
said.
He pointed out that British laws would have allowed Chen
to stay if her daughter had been a British, instead of an
Irish, citizen. Therefore denying her residence rights
would violate rules enshrined in the EU's founding treaty
which forbid discrimination against citizens of other
member nations.

arcadegame2004

The Chen European Court of Justice ruling today effectively overturns last years's Supreme Court ruling that the non-EU national parents of Irish-born children do not automatically qualify for residency-rights here. The Court ruled that the Chinese parent has residency rights through the entire EU-25, because her child was born in Belfast and therefore has Irish citizenship under our Constitution. In effect, it opens the door for ANYONE from anywhere in the world, without any numerical restrictions, to come to Ireland to raise a family, and then have the right to LIVE here. This clearly is relevant to the referendum campaign, and shows the urgency of changing our Constitution to stop this flagrant abuse of our citizenship laws. The Irish taxpayer will be forced to spend untold of amounts of money on child-benefit if we do not change our Citizenship-laws to remove the automatic right to Irish citizenship solely on the basis of being born on the island. We cannot an should not be expected to allow EVERYONE who gives birth here the right to remain in this country. There are already 11,000 such non-national parents and far more will arrive unless we vote "Yes" on June 11th. This ruling also circumvents the sovereignty of the other 24 EU members by handing residency rights to ANY foreign parent who wants to live there, provided they have their child in Ireland. This is clearly completely unreasonable and will cause chaos unless it is changed. Bear in mind, by the way, that although this is a preliminary ruling, in 90% of cases the final ECJ judgement agrees with the preliminary one.

Confirms even more that I will be voting yes

bonkey

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
In effect, it opens the door for ANYONE from anywhere in the world, without any numerical restrictions, to come to Ireland to raise a family, and then have the right to LIVE here. This clearly is relevant to the referendum campaign, and shows the urgency of changing our Constitution to stop this flagrant abuse of our citizenship laws.

...which is interesting, because you're taking a case of someone using our laws to live in another country and determining that the resultant problem from cases like this is that they have the right to live here.

You're far closer to the real problem (IMO) when you go on to say that :

This ruling also circumvents the sovereignty of the other 24 EU members by handing residency rights to ANY foreign parent who wants to live there, provided they have their child in Ireland.

This, for me, is the real issue. Forget trying to pull non-existant figures or proof to show that the immigrant "problem" is related to this loophole - it can be argued either way till the cows come home. However, the Chen case - if upheld - shows that Ireland's domestic policy is at odds with the policies across the EU to the extent that our law undermines that of other nations.

jc

arcadegame2004

Bonkey, while I agree with you that the way in which this ECJ ruling means that our current citizenship-laws circumvents the sovereignty of all 24 other EU states is a problem, and a major reason to vote "Yes", I still feel that the ECJ preliminary judgement (and 90% of those judgements are the final judgement too) gives the non-EU national parents of Irish-born children the possibility of being undeportable. They will now be able to point out that since the Chen Judgement allowed the parents of an Irish-born child to reside in the UK on the grounds that the child is an EU-citizen (because of the current Irish citizenshipllegal-position), that Ireland, as an EU state, must confer permanent residency-rights upon all non-national parents of children born in Ireland. This possibility was mentioned on today's FiveSevenLive program on RTE Radio 1. This is an appalling vista which in the end could cost the Irish taxpayer an unbelievable amount of money in terms of having to buy up untold amounts of property to house the massive numbers of pregnant asylum-seekers that may now head here in the knowledge that they can now stay in the West permanently simply by havign a child in Ireland.

In fact, this judgement has opened another door. The ECJ has ruled today in the Chen case that Mrs.Chen's spouse was also entitled to EU-residency rights for father an Irish-born child who is automatically an EU citizen. Unless we vote "Yes" in this referendum on changing the citizenship-laws, not only are the non-EU national mothers of Irish-born children entitled to residency in Ireland (or any other EU state), but they will also be able to acquire automatic residency for their spouses!!! This is crazy and will cost the taxpayer a fortune and we need to change the staus-quo of our citizenship laws to avoid this chaos becoming reality.

Cork

The ECJ judgement highlights that the Irish citizenship rules are open to abuse as an entry point to the EU.

bonkey

Could someone clarify something for me please.

Prior to the Amendment of Article 2 in 1998, what was the legal status of people born to non-Irish parents within the state bounds (i.e. mainland, islands, airspace and international waters) ???

jc

Kobie

According to Bonkeys article she came to Ireland to escape Bejing. However today on the news they said she wasn't present to hear the outcome because she was visiting China visiting family. She can only stay 30 days because the child is not a Chinese national.

Away from specific cases, the way I see it, today's temp. decision could lead to Ireland becoming portal no.1 for anyone who wants to live in Europe. Go to Ireland, drop a sprog & live in the country of your choice. That's just taking the piss.

sceptre

Originally posted by bonkey
Could someone clarify something for me please.

Prior to the Amendment of Article 2 in 1998, what was the legal status of people born to non-Irish parents within the state bounds (i.e. mainland, islands, airspace and international waters) ???

Pretty much exactly the same as it is now with a few exceptions on international waters and children of diplomats and so on. It's all there in the 1956 Act but I'm too lazy to look it up.

Ryvita

It can't be argued against that this will be not be open for abuse. But I still think this referrendum is not the right way to go about it. What about the people who aren't abusing the system?

What if you went to the states and worked there for a few years? If your child was born there would you expect that child to be deemed an american citizen? Be honest!

If they want to stop people just coming here to have a baby to get EU citizenship then why don't they change the referendum to say that the parents must have been living here for x-amount of time?

I'm sorry I still feel that if you are born here that you are Irish. I mean if I was born in a country I would say that I'm a citizen of that country?

There are other ways to deal with this issue other than this nasty referendum.

BuffyBot

What if you went to the states and worked there for a few years? If your child was born there would you expect that child to be deemed an american citizen? Be honest!

Actually, I wouldn't. I would certainly hope we all have the right to apply for citizenship after a few years working/studying etc - but I wouldn't expect it automatically.

Ryvita

Fair enough BuffyBott.

I just think that this referrendum is the not the way to go about solving this problem. I think this case in Belfast however has sealed the deal for the Yes camp.

I just think it's really sad.

bonkey

Originally posted by sceptre
Pretty much exactly the same as it is now with a few exceptions on international waters and children of diplomats and so on. It's all there in the 1956 Act but I'm too lazy to look it up.

Right...so the claims that this is because of the poor wording of the 1998 referendum is completley bogus.

So - we've had this loophole for 50 years. Why haven't the hordes been arriving for 50 years? Surely this suggests that Irish citizenship and the ensuing ability to avoid deportation being a prime issue is incorrect? Surely it also casts doubt on those who predict the massive amount of problems this "new" loophole will cause.

Its been around 50 years. It hasn't been a problem for 50 years. Ergo, if there is a problem, it isn't because of this loophole?

jc