ManU aren't in decline!

eirebhoy

I know... what a topic to cause a boiling debate but I didn't waste my time looking up these stats for nothing.:)

Most of you would have seen the topic, "Are Man Utd in decline?" and a few of the United fans mentioned Rio's injury as having a huge impact on the results. Anyway, since the season is over I will provide you with a few suprising stats that would even have Arsenal feeling a little bit lucky.

Man Utd with Keane
Played: 28
Won: 19 (68%)
Lost: 4 (14%)
Drew: 5 (18%)

Man Utd without Keane
Played: 10 (all average teams)
Won: 4 (40%)
Lost: 5 (50%)
Drew: 1 (10%)

Man Utd with Ferdinand
Played: 20
Won: 15 (75%)
Lost: 3 (15%)
Drew: 2 (10%)

Man Utd without Ferdinand
Played: 18
Won: 8 (45%)
Lost: 6 (33%)
Drew: 4 (22%)

Man Utd with Scholes
Played: 28
Won: 18 (64%)
Lost: 5 (18%)
Drew: 5 (18%)

Man Utd without Scholes
Played: 10
Won: 5 (50%)
Lost: 4 (40%)
Drew: 1 (10%)

When all three players ( Scholes, Keane and Ferdinand) played these are the stats:
Played: 12
Won: 10 (83%)
Lost: 1 (8%) - Wolves (a)
Drew: 1 (8%) - Newcastle (h)

So United PLC may not be in decline.:)

Pigman II

I don't know how much you can really read into those stats.

After all Viera (like Keane) only played 28 times this season for Arsenal. The teams record was better in his absence (7-3-0) as it was in his presence (19-9-0). Does this mean Viera should be dropped? No it just means that breaking down stats that way doesn't give as clear-cut a picture as would initally suggest.

MisterAnarchy

Man Utd lost away to Wolves and drew at home to Newcastle.

eirebhoy

Originally posted by MisterAnarchy
Man Utd lost away to Wolves and drew at home to Newcastle.

Cheers.

NightStrike

Not saying I agree with your theory but another point to mention which may help u is that Rio went off early enough against wolves injured. He was replaced by Brown who fell on his arse when wolves ran through and scored

spongebob

Buy Viera I say .


M

cournioni

Em... What?

spongebob

Originally posted by PORNAPSTER
Em... What?

Not Em , Viera. Big fella plays for Arsenal in Midfield. Very Keane like player.

He'd love to go up north to eat mushy peas with gravy, I can tell.

M

KdjaCL

Utd had best defence for near 2 years but conceded vital goals (usually a Neville) at times that fekked them up. When ferdinand went they had to play Brown who wasnt match fit.

But excuses aside they still wouldnt have won the league just would have made it less than 15 points between them.

kdjac

cournioni

I was talking about the "United crest" you posted up there and then edited out.

Dewey

United arent in decline. Man U have had a bad season and thats it. I'm glad its this season we have had a really bad one because Arsenal were Unstoppable this year and always looked like winning the title.
We lost Rio at in January and it all went down hill from there. Wes wasnt fit enough for about 2 months which is why he was so poor in a few games.
Now for next season we need a World Class Midefeilder to replace Keano because Fergie has said he is only going to play Roy for.....20 games. So we need someone like Gearred. And a new cental defender(just in case Rio forgets.....again).
United dont need anymore strikers, With Ruud,Saha, Ole they will be find. (Sorry Forlan but you cant cut it for us anymore. thanks for the 5 goals in 400 games or what ever it was).

So i'm looking forward to next season. I think we can do the Treble again......just kiddin.

spongebob

Originally posted by Dewey
United arent in decline.

Now for next season we need a World Class Midfielder to replace Keano because Fergie has said he is only going to play Roy for.....20 games.

Not if all that is needed is a cheque !

Agreed, Keane is an uncertainy where before he was a certainty. Viera would be perfect. Attackers are not a problem and MU should stop ****ing with Butts head. Butt could play the Keane role if they built his confidence up a bit.

M

The Brigadier

I don't think Man Utd will improve next season.

Keane is past it. The players they have bought in have been very ordinary.

Arsenal are still too strong. Chelsea will buy big again.

I think Utd will do well to hit 3rd again, and I would not be surprised to see them drop out of the top 4....

spongebob

TBH I think the problem was (and still is) Rock of Gibralter. Fergusons judgement is suspect .

Wengers is not.

God knows what Chelsea will do next year, soar or implode I should think.

M

Pepe LeFrits

Originally posted by The Brigadier
I think Utd will do well to hit 3rd again, and I would not be surprised to see them drop out of the top 4....

I would. As Arsenal showed this season, great teams don't suddenly become rubbish overnight, so unless they offload the likes of Van Nistelrooy and dont replace them, they'll be up there again next season.

They are in decline though, and it'll be interesting to see if Fergie can arrest the decline. 1 premiership title, probably 1 FA cup, 2? CL quarter finals and now two 3rd place finishes in the last 3 seasons is poor for them. For most teams that'd be an excellent haul, but compared to what they used to achieve it is poor. Arsenal and Chelsea seem to be getting stronger, while presently United are going the opposite direction... slowly.

Dustaz

I think kaids nailed it there. Utd are definitly in decline (relatively speaking) when you look at their form last decade. However it sure aint freefall, just ask Aston Villa.

Even if RVN leaves in the summer, they will make a huge net gain on him and make the money to replace him with a younger model (theres a lot out there who are almost as good as him) and should get someone else in with the bargain. If he doesnt leave, well they get to keep ruud.

It will be interesting to see how the new players this season turn out next year. From watching the arsenal over the last few years it seems that really good foreign players take a while to settle in (viera and henry are classic examples there). Ronaldo showed glimpses of how good he may turn out to be this year and Kleberson i think had a hard run, i wouldnt rule him out just yet.

Really the only fly in the ointment is Ferguson himself. There are signs that he really is suffering from massive judgement errors. Of course these could be just co-incedental but nearly all the major problems that theyve had this year (and others) have stemmed from the manager. The manner of beckhams departure and lack of replacement, The ferdinand issue and the M&M saga were all badly handled in retrospect. If ManU were a spanish or italian team he would already be on his way to another club (although i wouldnt favor that style of chairmanship). The time is approaching for the board to make some hard decisions regarding sir alex unless he turns it around in a big way next year (which i think he will have the team to do).

Assuming Fergie has a few things up his sleeve, the future for the moaners might not be rosy, but its not as bleak as some people make it out to be.

cournioni

And you must remember the huge distractions off the pitch at United with the Magnier vs. Ferguson thing, the Rio thing and Roy returning for Ireland. They had to affect the teams performance in one way or another.

The Rooster

Its funny how a player's reputation can grow a lot when he's out of the team. That has certainly happened wit Rio. People have completely forgotten what a mediocre start to the season he had, and how Silvestre carried him through most games. It was actually only in the period between the dope test and the ban that he started to play well, and he had some great games in that period - but still, overall, he was United's second best centre back.

What was odd though was that when Brown came in, and was useless, it completely knocked Silvestre's confidence and his performance, and he struggled to get that back even when Brown started to play really well in the last month or two.

I think it shows that it takes a while to develop a central defensive parternship, and it will be interesting to see which two are first choice next season.

Keane can still be a huge player for United, but he can only play in about half or maybe 60% of the games. Phil Neville or Butt replacing him for the other games means United are severly weakened. But maybe Djemba-Djemba will get more of a run next year. I see him as potentially a far better option than the other two. I havent seen any potential in Kleberson and wouldnt be surprised to see him offloaded in the summer. Ronaldo is class - that's obvious. A big big player for the coming years.

spongebob

Originally posted by PORNAPSTER
And you must remember the huge distractions off the pitch at United with the Magnier vs. Ferguson thing, the Rio thing and Roy returning for Ireland. They had to affect the teams performance in one way or another.

All Fergusons fault

1. Greed over the horse, Ferguson thinks he has 'arrived' in the horse set. This from a man who sold Beckham because he thought Beckham was a distraction

2. Muppet thinks that he does not have to show for drug test, ingerlun international and big cheese at big club that he is. Considering what they paid for Rio for what they got in the end, Bruce Pallister McGrath and Moran look like inspirations........except that they were not Fergusons choices (maybe Bruce was in the early days ?) . Rio has been a damp squib and looks inept one match in 4 or so.

3. Roy has not played a game for Ireland since 2002 , it would be a distraction if he did and crocked himself, otherwise not . It is certainly peripheral to the bread and butter of playing well enough to guarantee a Champions league place .

M

Dustaz

Originally posted by PORNAPSTER
And you must remember the huge distractions off the pitch at United with the Magnier vs. Ferguson thing, the Rio thing and Roy returning for Ireland. They had to affect the teams performance in one way or another.

Totally agree with muck W.R.T. his comments about that. The first two are fergusons own fault and keane didnt even play for ireland - how could this possibly affect ManUre?

Again, The team are in decline but not ireparably so. The managers judgement however is the thing that should be in question.

spongebob

I said before it would not surprise me a bit if Martin O'Neill were manager by the end of June ( 2004 that is)

2 or three signings around Centre Back and Central Midfield and MU would be chugging again. Beer money for MU , thats all .

Unfortunately all the MU supporting muppets who are currently claiming that the present team and manager will do de treble next year would then come back at Muck claiming that it was their idea and that they admitted there was something wrong with Ferguson once he decided he was Horse Owning Gentry and not a clever knacker from Govan and former publican .

The MU supporting muppets are not admitting that the end is near for Ferguson . Admitting you have a problem is the first stage of solving it.

Keep an eye on Martin lads. He will be at either 'pool or MU by the end of June (or maybe Chelsea) and God help MU if O'Neill is at 'pool while Ferguson is still at MU .

Thats my opinion . Ferguson is damaged goods . Fergusons team is damaged goods till a competent new manager is in place. Easier said than done when there are so few candidates available

M

vorbis

a bit harsh Muck. as an Arsenal fan I don't think they're past it at all. When Rio was still there, they had their best ever start to a season. For a while, it was looking like Arsenal would go unbeaten but wouldn't win anything!!

Devious

Originally posted by vorbis
For a while, it was looking like Arsenal would go unbeaten but wouldn't win anything!!

That would have been really sickening for Arsenal! Also bear in mind that, as excellent as Arsenals achievement was, if it had been United, they would have still classed their season as a disappointment due to going out of the CL.

Villain

I don't think United are really in that much of a decline, there main 2 problems were:

1: Not replacing Beckham, as much as I hate the chap (anyone see his red card last night for abusing the linesman:p) he gave united a cutting edge in the last 3rd. His supply into the box and long cross field balls have not been matched by anyone at UTD. They need a big star to give some creativity to the team, I mean apart from Ronaldo theres no spark there, and while Ronaldo can dribble past a few players he's not the one to cut a defence open with a 50 yard pass.

2:Rio's stupidty definitely hurt them, there defence was all at sea at certian stages, but that will be resolved next year I'm sure.

The Brigadier

I think that Maritin O'Neill would have an immediate effect on any club he joined.

If he joined Liverpool or Newcastle I could see them overtaking Utd.

However, if he joined Utd, I would put money on them to win the league....

Ferguson was a success, I now feel he has gone on 1 more year than he should have.

The Rooster

If ManU and Ferguson did part ways in the summer, there is no question that the first person they'd offfer the job to would be Sven Goran Ericksson.

If he couldnt or wouldnt come, then O'Neill might come into the picture, but I'd doubt very much he'd be near the top of any shortlist. The board of the plc would want to believe they are taking as little a risk as possible. They'd want somebody with a bigger name or a better managerial record than MON. I think its fair to say O'Neill has done excellently with what he's had to work with at both Leicester and Celtic (and Wycombe before that), but there is a fact that he's failed to achieve anything in the Champions League each year, and thats a black mark that the MU plc board would not ignore.

BaZmO*

Originally posted by Muck

Unfortunately all the MU supporting muppets who are currently claiming that the present team and manager will do de treble next year would then come back at Muck claiming that it was their idea and that they admitted there was something wrong with Ferguson once he decided he was Horse Owning Gentry and not a clever knacker from Govan and former publican .

Who is saying that you fool?? And why are you referring to yourself in the third person?

The fact of the matter is Utd. are not in decline, they are having a bit of a dip in form at the moment.

B.

The Brigadier

If you want to talk about FACTS then Utd are in decline...

They are playing worse now than at the start of the season.

At least fans of other clubs are able to accept when they are in trouble....

gandalf

Muck & BaZmO* give it a rest the both of you. If you cannot discuss this like adults then don't bother.

If I ban either of you it will be permanent. I am in no humour for babysitting !!

Pepe LeFrits

Originally posted by BaZmO*
The fact of the matter is Utd. are not in decline, they are having a bit of a dip in form at the moment.

pretty long dip in form!

Villain

Originally posted by kaids
pretty long dip in form!

Not really I think with 6 games to go they had 3 more points than they did at the same stage in the prior season. The fact is Arsenal and Chelsea did a lot better than prior seasons, I think with Rio back and a signing or 2 UTD will be challenging Arsenal a lot more next season.

BaZmO*

Sorry Gandalf!!! But in all fairness he was calling all Manu fans Muppets!!

But point taken and I will behave!!


B.

Devious

Originally posted by The Brigadier
If you want to talk about FACTS then Utd are in decline...

Just like United were "in decline" back in '95 when Blackburn won it :rolleyes: . Lets wait and see what happens next season before we rush to any conclusions.

Pepe LeFrits

Originally posted by irish1
Not really I think with 6 games to go they had 3 more points than they did at the same stage in the prior season. The fact is Arsenal and Chelsea did a lot better than prior seasons, I think with Rio back and a signing or 2 UTD will be challenging Arsenal a lot more next season.

I was referring to their overall long-term dip in form, not the current mini slump they had this season.

cournioni

They were champions last year kaids. How can you call that part of a long term dip in form?

SteM

Originally posted by The Rooster
If ManU and Ferguson did part ways in the summer, there is no question that the first person they'd offfer the job to would be Sven Goran Ericksson.

It was Peter Keynon who wanted to bring in Eriksson when Ferguson wanted to retire. Now that he's left for Chelsea there's nothing to suggest that the current board would look want Eriksson.

I've said it before here and I'll say it again, I think Ferguson should be given at least another seson to continue the rebuilding of the team. I think he deserves it but if anyone were to come it I'd prefer O'Neill over Eriksson anyday.

Pepe LeFrits

Originally posted by PORNAPSTER
They were champions last year kaids. How can you call that part of a long term dip in form?

Originally posted by kaids
1 premiership title, probably 1 FA cup, 2? CL quarter finals and now two 3rd place finishes in the last 3 seasons is poor for them. For most teams that'd be an excellent haul, but compared to what they used to achieve it is poor.

eirebhoy

Originally posted by NightStrike
Not saying I agree with your theory...

There isn't much to disagree with TBH. It is definitely no coincidence that when all three of the players mentioned played they won 83% of the matches and when just one of the players were out they only won 40-50%. Keane played 28 matches but, other than injuries, both Keane and Ferguson admitted that he was fit to play them all.

I definitely think Beckham's departure is coincidental to the drop in form. The reasons being, when United had a full squad to choose from they won probably 90% of their matches and nobody was saying they are missing Beckham (when the injuries kicked in that is when they dropped in form). Also, Beckham scored 6 goals and got 9 assists in the league last season, he played most matches. The combined total of Kleberson, Ronaldo, Solskjaer Fletcher or whoever played on the right at the time for ManU would be around the same. You can't say Beckham would have had any more of an effect on a game because all he does is score and assist.;) Away from stats, Beckham was a lazy bastard at United.

kida

The Beckham of 2/3 years ago is missed. The Beckham of last year is not. He didn't pull his weight at all, and continued to perform well for England.

I don't think they are in decline, a couple of good signings, Rio back, a rested Kleberson and a rejuvenated Ruud are al we need.

Up until February they were on course for their best season in a long time.

spongebob

Originally posted by BaZmO*
Sorry Gandalf!!! But in all fairness he was calling all Manu fans Muppets!!

No he was not . Those who will defend Ferguson now and will then back a new manager to the hilt in July while claiming that Ferguson ' had to go ' are the muppets. They regurgimatate the PR guff outta Manchester as it appears.

Lots of REAL MU fans that I know were well cheesed off about the business of the horse and the court case earlier this year , they reckon it cost them the Porto match for sure . They believe that Ferguson showed far more interest in his equine pension fund than he did in the affairs of his (and their) team. The fact that he fell out with 30% of the shareholders in one go is also worthy of note.

They can therefore see the imminent end of a long era, as can I .

M

SteM

Originally posted by Muck
No he was not . Those who will defend Ferguson now and will then back a new manager to the hilt in July while claiming that Ferguson ' had to go ' are the muppets. They regurgimatate the PR guff outta Manchester as it appears.

Eh, would you not wait for that to happen before you jump in with the Man U muppets jibe then Muck?

PHB

Ok, lets look at this for a second.

Fergie has done what in the last 4 years?

2 Premiership Titles.

Wenger has done what in the last 4 years?

2 Premiership Titles
3/4 FA Cup wins(can't remember)

Fergie has done better in Europe.

Heres my question?
Because they won the treble and havn't won the European Champions League does that put them in decline?
If so then they are in decline.

By the same logic because nearly every premiership team finished in a slightly different spot than they did last season, does that put them in decline or the opposite.

What is decline supposed to mean to you people?

I was under the impression that decline meant a long term dip in form.

Man Uniteds form has been **** for 5 months!
Is that a long term dip?

Man United were top of the table at christmas, and Ferdinand got banned, Neville and Slyvestre got injured, and Brown was drafted in before he was ready for it.

They had a very bad spell and then lost the premiership, thats what its about, maintaining a good streak for long enough to counter any bad form you had.
Arsenal did that very well this year, Man United and Chelsea didn't.

---

How is this Fergie's fault?
Ronaldo is a very good player, he gets in the cross etc.
Beckham was a great player, I don't disagree with ya, however he is 30 and he is getting worse over time, and he didn't play his heart out for Man Utd like he used to so Fergie cashed in on his player that he made, and has now bought a new player.

Ferdinand is in now way fergie's fault, its ferdinand's fault for being stupid. Harsh and unfair punishment imo which cost Man Utd the league buts thats neither here nor there.

Keane played fantastically at the start of the season, but dipped off at the end. He is still by far one of the best midfielders in the premiership and definally the best in Man Utd. How is any of this Fergie's fault?

Somebody tell me what he has done wrong!?
He has been unlucky in injuries and suspensions this year, and even though they have massive squad depth(which they do btw) they weren't able to maintain a top position with a reserve team defense.

Find me any team in the world that can maintain a top of the table position after losing their two top centre backs and another full back for about 3-4 weeks and I will say well done, because its just not bloody possible.

Fergie will buy a couple of players next year, and the premiership will be decided in Man Utd vs. Arsenal vs. Chelsea games.
He isn't going anywhere because he is the most successful manager Man Utd have ever had and has done the business for years and will continue to do so.

How the **** is any of this decline?

----


Also Sven Goran Eriksen or however you spell it, are you ****ing mad? He hasn't done anything of note and if he doesn't do well in the European Championship he's gona be screwed, the public will have him gone.

Carlos Quirez is the man for the job, and the second he joined Real Madrid I knew that he'd be c oming back to take over Fergie's job once the time is right.
O Neill would be good too but I'd say he'd be going to Pool this summer if he can.

Also whoever said that if O Neill went to Liverpool and Newcastle, that they would overtake united, you're being a little bit, no wait a lot lot lot stupid
There is no chance at all within the next two seasons that the top three won't remain the top three, and Chelsea aren't going to be any good next season because of constant changes and non-gelling, with a manger who won't be able to handle anywhere near as well.

spongebob

Twould be a shame if none of the MU fans themselves predicted the end of an era while the outsiders did.

Another variation is that Ferguson gets bumped upstairs with Sir Bobby to do ambassadorial and fluffy stuff while a new manager is appointed under the guise of ' Coach ' . Dunno if Ferguson would go along with that though, Ken Bates lasted about a week in his 'new role' at Chelsea.

Carlos Quiroz. Anybody heard of him ? , Real Madrid manager chappie , should be on the market by ...ummmmmmm tomorrow or weds I'd say . Could be an OK coach I hear .

M

Pepe LeFrits

Originally posted by PHB
What is decline supposed to mean to you people?

de·cline ( P ) Pronunciation Key (d-kln)
v. de·clined, de·clin·ing, de·clines
v. intr.
To express polite refusal.

To slope downward; descend.
To bend downward; droop.
To degrade or lower oneself; condescend.
To deteriorate gradually; fail.

To sink, as the setting sun.
To draw to a gradual close; wane.

They peaked 5 years ago, and have been deteriorating gradually.

Devious

Originally posted by kaids
They peaked 5 years ago, and have been deteriorating gradually.

Or more accurately, they peaked 5 years ago, dropped down a fraction of a level, have stayed there for five years and if anything, only look like returning to that level or surpassing it, not going in the other direction.

Villain

Originally posted by kaids
They peaked 5 years ago, and have been deteriorating gradually.

Deteriorating ???

Now come on Kaids they have had a bit of a dip if they had been deteriorating for 5 years they'd be mid table and not won the league in a year or two.

I support Aston Villa and have no affection for Man United what so ever, but I have been watching football long enoug to know Man United are not in decline, they had a bad season but will probably still win the FA CUP and have qualified for Champions league. Given that their best defender was absent for such a large part of the season I think they haven't done that badly, as I have said its more a case of Arsenal and Chelseas raising the bar and United staying still.

Arsenal fans should be talking about the rise of their team instead of trying to harp on about UTD's small blip.

SteM

Originally posted by Muck
Twould be a shame if none of the MU fans themselves predicted the end of an era while the outsiders did.

Well, not being able to see into the future I'll not predict either the end of an era or a treble any time soon. I'll just keep going with the club and see where the journey leads. Half the fun of supporting a club isn't it?

As for your Queiroz comment, he does seem to be a very good coach but I'm not sure about manager material yet. Would he want to come in as coach under Ferguson after being main man at Real Maadrid? I don't think so. As you said, how happy would Ferguson be to 'move upstairs' and let him take over completely? There's a chance that real could finish 4th in Spain under him, I don't think bringing him would be a solutions to United's perceived problems.

BaZmO*

Kaids, by your reckoning then, if Arsenal "don't" go unbeaten, "don't" win the PL title, "don't" reach the semi-finals of the CL and don't get into the final of the FA Cup next year they will be a club in decline?

B.

Big Ears

Im sick of Man Utd fans talking about Ferdinand every time their season is mentioned , I mean I dont use Woodgate (who has played less games than ferdinand ,18 of which 2 of those were lost )as an excuse for Newcastle's bad season , Newcastle had a lot more players unavailable throughout the seaon than united did . Man United lacked strenght in depth and thats why they did so bad by their standards ( same with Newcastle : having to play Caldwell and Titus Bramble as centre backs )

Villain

Originally posted by BaZmO*
Kaids, by your reckoning then, if Arsenal "don't" go unbeaten, "don't" win the PL title, "don't" reach the semi-finals of the CL and don't get into the final of the FA Cup next year they will be a club in decline?

B.

exactly

The Rooster

Not to mention that United knew Rio was going to get suspended, yet still refused to spend any of their vast millions on defensive back-up during the winter transfer window.

Then Ferguson says on Saturday - the suspension of Rio was the turning point of the season.

Only because you allowed it to be Alex!