The incursion into Palestine...

bonkey

OK...

before I start....

I accept that many people here have diametrically opposed views on who is right and wrong in the overall Palestinian conflict.

Let me be very, very clear. I am not interested in dicussing that in this thread. If you want to discuss that, go somewhere else, start your own thread, or keep quiet.

Please.

Now...on to what I want to discuss....

Last week, Israel suffered its largest military loss in quite some time. This was where soldiers were killed in two seperate incidents while engaged in operations in Palestine.

As a result, or perhaps just with incredibly bad timing, we have seen the largest military action by the Israelis in a long number of years, which has apparently involved the town of Rafah having its electiricty and water cut off during the fighting, and only today has resulted in the Israelis opening fire on a group of protestors - apparently because they were moving towards a battlezone.

Now...there's a couple of things here.

1) Why does Israel persist in avenging the deaths of its military more forcefully than the deaths of its civilians? Surely this continues to send a message to the Palestinian terrorists that they are far better off bombing civililans? The reprisals are less, and the targets are easier. It doesn't make sense to me....

2) Can anyone justify the denial of basic necessities like water to a town of 90,000 in the name of military action against a far, far smaller number.

3) Media are reporting that the Israelis have confirmed firing 4 tank shells and a helicopter-mounted missile at the protestors who numbered in their thousands. What possible justification can this act have? We're not talking crowd dispersal tactics here, nor have any claims of targetting known terrorists or anything been offered as justification, so what possible justification can there be? Did they mistake the protestors for a mass armed attack?

jc

flogen

on your first point, it would be better if Israel was to act on all deaths equally, perhaps they should view 10 deaths as just that, and not 10 military/civilian deaths. Perhaps they feel that attacks on their military is more publically embarressing, their army is supposed to be well protected and trained etc, while their civilians are sitting ducks (so to speak)

I am sure that cutting off the water and electricity does go against some kind of human right issues, it was a civilian town after all, its not as if they were cutting off supply lines to an army barracks (although they will say the town was full of militiamen)

I dont know how they can justify their attack, it is obscene, and a total over-reaction on the armies part, I would be surprised, however, if they say they were wrong and punish the person who ordered the army to fire

Flogen

earwicker

Interesting topic. To address your questions:

1) The response to the attacks on their military sends the message that the entire community is responsible for military deaths, and that the war is one of the armed military against the general Palestinian population. It seems designed to produce the maximum anger in the Palestinian population as a whole. I really cannot see how this won't produce more anger/ martrys/ "terrorists." The question is why do the Israelis want a very pissed off Palestinian population? So they can continue the policy to deny them concessions?

2) Denying water once again victimizes the population as a whole. See point one.

3) I just heard a report that 14 protestors are dead. It's mad to think that this is like just one Bloody Sunday. I can't remember how many Bloody Sundays there has been for the Palestinians, but we all know how good a recruiting sergeant they are. Again, this seems designed to produce a specific result: a militant and hostile Palestinian population.

It truly seems to be two eyes for an eye.

mr_angry

I've given up discussing these actions altogether. Its clear that Isreal isn't prepared to listen to anyone else, as long as they have the backing of the US in the UN Security Council. Since the US seems unprepared to listen to anyone either, its pointless.

seamus

Originally posted by mr_angry
I've given up discussing these actions altogether. Its clear that Isreal isn't prepared to listen to anyone else, as long as they have the backing of the US in the UN Security Council. Since the US seems unprepared to listen to anyone either, its pointless.

This is the standpoint I've adopted too. It's horrible to see, but it's a waste of breath condemning it when Israel doesn't seem interested in resolving the situation at all.

Moriarty

1) I dunno. It certainly strikes me as counter-productive to the IDF's strategic goal of defending the Israeli civilian population.

2) Nope.

3) The reports I've heard (off sky and news24) have said that helicopters fired a number of rockets in front of an approaching crowd to warn them off from coming any closer. The crowd kept advancing, so tanks then fired shells in front of them for the same reason. Seemingly the last shell was "poorly aimed" and fell in the body of the crowd.

Two things about this.. (1) the palastinians were pretty fucking stupid to continue to advance after they had rather over-enthusiastic warning shots from both tanks and helicopters to stay away. (2) its really stretching it, to put it mildly, to use MBT rounds and helicopter rockets as 'warning shots'. I'd think heavy calibre machine gun fire that both the tank and helicopters could have used would have been much more effective (easier to see where its coming from and hence where not to go), if they had to resort to that.

Originally posted by mr_angry
I've given up discussing these actions altogether. Its clear that Isreal isn't prepared to listen to anyone else, as long as they have the backing of the US in the UN Security Council. Since the US seems unprepared to listen to anyone either, its pointless.

Also my stance now I'm afraid.
Theres something Biblical in Israels approach to everything..
An eye for an eye.
Sounds familiar doesn't it? others have that too and we wonder why or do we even have to?
Theres nothing to Israels actions only fervency and an unwillingness to be understanding .
Palestinians could possibly be reasonable as could the Israeli's, too much fervency and not enough talking to one another, oh yeah they have talked, but their fervency always took over, speeding up their impatience and need to get back to what they do best ... arguing!

Wolfie

Originally posted by seamus
This is the standpoint I've adopted too. It's horrible to see, but it's a waste of breath condemning it when Israel doesn't seem interested in resolving the situation at all.

And me. I cant remember how long I have been criticising the fascist and warmongering actions of the israeli government. I didnt think such behaviour was possible in the world we live in... Israel seems to be able to get away with doing anything they want, without fear of any kind of action being taken by the west.

Sharon himself is a war criminal who ordered his army to shell a civilian refugee camp many years ago, so what are we to expect from this murdering war-pig??? Peace? No chance. Meanwhile the rest of the world has to suffer the wrath of a righteously pissed off people. It really is a hopeless situation. The EU needs to be firm and act, because the US sure as hell wont.

Conspiracy theorists who spouted the fascist zionist globablisation theory, it turns out, you were all correct all along. Jesus, with all that is happening in current affairs on a global level, I actually do feel there are sinister forces at work.

..dont believe me? You havent watched the propoganda channel known as CNN then!

Moriarty

And this thread was doing so well until you came along, wolfie. Sigh.

Wolfie

Originally posted by Moriarty

coming any closer. The crowd kept advancing, so tanks then fired shells in front of them for the same reason. Seemingly the last shell was "poorly aimed" and fell in the body of the crowd.

Two things about this.. (1) the palastinians were pretty fucking stupid to continue to advance after they had rather over-enthusiastic warning shots from both

If you believe that the Israelis fired 'warning shots' using rockets and tank artillery, then I have some eircoN shares you might be interested in!

I went to an Isreali website, Mideasttruth.org or something.. you should have seen the propoganda and blind indifference/hate to palestinians... drove me to despair... I wrote a statement criticising Isaeli actions in the guestbook, and it was cut out.. who says fascism is dead. And these guys complain about how the nazis acted? They are are ****ing nazis!

Wolfie

Originally posted by Moriarty
And this thread was doing so well until you came along, wolfie. Sigh.

What, I'm not allowed to express my opinion here even though it simply reinforces what others have already said? hmmm.. oh, I forgot, you are a mod, that explains it. Carry on sir, you may speak unchallenged!

Moriarty

Originally posted by Wolfie
What, I'm not allowed to express my opinion here even though it simply reinforces what others have already said? hmmm.. oh, I forgot, you are a mod, that explains it. Carry on sir, you may speak unchallenged!

Originally posted by bonkey
I accept that many people here have diametrically opposed views on who is right and wrong in the overall Palestinian conflict.

Let me be very, very clear. I am not interested in dicussing that in this thread. If you want to discuss that, go somewhere else, start your own thread, or keep quiet.

Please.

Oh, and as an aside, I'm treated just the same here as every other poster. That I'm a mod of another board is completely irrelevant. We get no special privilages and are treated no differently than you or anyone else here.

Wolfie

Originally posted by Moriarty
Oh, and as an aside, I'm treated just the same here as every other poster. That I'm a mod of another board is completely irrelevant. We get no special privilages and are treated no differently than you or anyone else here.

You're communist? Cool. In response to your quotation from the original posting, I have to say, you cant talk about cooking omelettes without mentioning the egg. QED Moriarty. QED.

gandalf

Can you two girl guides get back on topic !!!!!!

Victor

Originally posted by bonkey
1) Why does Israel persist in avenging the deaths of its military more forcefully than the deaths of its civilians? Surely this continues to send a message to the Palestinian terrorists that they are far better off bombing civililans? The reprisals are less, and the targets are easier. It doesn't make sense to me....

Someone else explained it better before, but it's down to the mythology of the IDF in the Israeli collective mindset "we don't take casualites". Israelis take army casualties personally.

Originally posted by bonkey
2) Can anyone justify the denial of basic necessities like water to a town of 90,000 in the name of military action against a far, far smaller number.

The only answer I can come up with is wrong-minded collective punishment to flush out militants on the basis of trying to asssociate Palestinian militancy with deprivation.

Originally posted by bonkey
3) Media are reporting that the Israelis have confirmed firing 4 tank shells and a helicopter-mounted missile at the protestors who numbered in their thousands. What possible justification can this act have? We're not talking crowd dispersal tactics here, nor have any claims of targetting known terrorists or anything been offered as justification, so what possible justification can there be? Did they mistake the protestors for a mass armed attack?

In a way it was "crowd dispersal tactics" (I can only assume). Most people will run away from (repeated) explosions and I assume the logic is "if we injure / kill one now, the others won't be so ready to come back". This only works if you have an unregimented "crowd".

In a way this is like the looting control in Iraq last year. In Basra, the British shot 5 people on the first signs of looting - no more looting. In Baghdad the Americans failed to take responsibility and looting / rapes / murders, etc. got out of control.

halkar

We have fascism, zionism and now we have Sharonizm. There is no way that Israel wants peace nor they want Palestine to form a state of their own they just want them out of their so called promised land dead or alive by any means. So here is the answer to those all that was asking why wasn't palestinian terrorists attacking IDF instead of civilians. Maybe they got their answer.

They are building walls and now they will build more of it at the Gaza border of Egypt. How can anyone think that Palestinian state or any state would be possible to form in this case? Palestinians are totally trapped in their homeland and world does nothing about it. And if anyone tries to do anything they are called anti-seminist and the past is dug and bla bla. It is nothing to do with anti-semitism, it is Israel that wants to create all Jewish state and that is what they call themselves then hide behind democracy. Yeah sure they are a democracy but only if you are Jew, if you are palestinian you have no right to be there, they will bulldoze your house, kill your father, brother, friends and bring some more jews to settle on your land while you end up in some refugee camp and probably get hit by a missile or sniper one day and grow your hate to Israel to wrap yourself by bombs to blow on some checkpoint or bus.

I wonder when will US or UN going to invade Israel to free Palestinians?

bonkey

Originally posted by Moriarty
Oh, and as an aside, I'm treated just the same here as every other poster. That I'm a mod of another board is completely irrelevant. We get no special privilages and are treated no differently than you or anyone else here.

Not entirely true.

We tend to put up with no crap whatsoever from mods, whereas we often give non-mods some slight leeway.

Mods have no excuse, so they get no tolerance.

jc

bonkey

Originally posted by Victor
In a way this is like the looting control in Iraq last year. In Basra, the British shot 5 people on the first signs of looting - no more looting. In Baghdad the Americans failed to take responsibility and looting / rapes / murders, etc. got out of control.

Interesting point Vic....

hmmm....

Ping Chow Chi

In a way this is like the looting control in Iraq last year. In Basra, the British shot 5 people on the first signs of looting - no more looting. In Baghdad the Americans failed to take responsibility and looting / rapes / murders, etc. got out of control.

Humm I would argue this logic, shortly after the 'end' of the war, the americans shot dead 13 demonstrators in Falluja, this town has not been quiet since.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/2984663.stm

In the area that the British control, most of the population where happy to see the troops and more coperative than the people in the area which the Americans control.

I was tempted to sideline the thread by responding to the later posts, but I'll keep to Bonkeys guidelines.

1) Why does Israel persist in avenging the deaths of its military more forcefully than the deaths of its civilians? Surely this continues to send a message to the Palestinian terrorists that they are far better off bombing civililans? The reprisals are less, and the targets are easier. It doesn't make sense to me....

Israel is predominatly controlled by the military, so when theres an attack on the military they take it as a blow to their pride. Civilian attacks while terrible, are fairly normal for the Israeli administration to deal with. However, when an attack is made on the military, they wish to regain any lost pride, or stain on their "honor". Most military groups in the world have similiar feelings. Its just that the Israeli Military have so much power in the running of the country, that theres such a response.

2) Can anyone justify the denial of basic necessities like water to a town of 90,000 in the name of military action against a far, far smaller number.

Justify, no. Point out that most countries out there are guilty of the same methods, yes. The US has done it a few times in Iraq, & France did it in their own colonies during rebellions etc. As far as i can see, its just another extreme response to a terrorist/guerilla campaign.

Note. I'm not defending Israeli actions in this. However, I can see their reasoning, in shutting down a whole population, that harbors fighters that act in a guerilla warfare fashion.

3) Media are reporting that the Israelis have confirmed firing 4 tank shells and a helicopter-mounted missile at the protestors who numbered in their thousands. What possible justification can this act have? We're not talking crowd dispersal tactics here, nor have any claims of targetting known terrorists or anything been offered as justification, so what possible justification can there be? Did they mistake the protestors for a mass armed attack?

No justification at all.

halkar

What does Israel expect when they keep going in Palestinian territories as they please and kill regardless who you are? They are trespassing into Gaza and their armoured carriers gets blown up, big deal, they got what they asked for. they should stay in their own boundaries as if Palestinians enter Israel without permision they get killed so does Israeli entering Gaza. How would they like if Palestinians goes in occupied territories with buldozers and demolish those illegal settlements that was taken from them?
UN has condemned the actions of Israel but don't think it will go any further than being on the paper with US backing Israel. It is really worrying for the region though, I think Israel is really playing with fire with no willing to peace. How long will it be before it pi$$es of their neighbours whom already lost their beleive to UN?

What makes me wonders is how do they get away with this ethnic cleansing before rest of the world do something about it!

*clenches teeth*

Wrestlemania

An unfortunate loss in Civilan life but here is the other side of the story which I tend to agree with:

http://www1.idf.il/DOVER/site/mainpage.asp?sl=EN&id=7&docid=31354.EN

The man in the chopper is given orders from the ground and they do not intentionally fire at civilians.

freetoair

Aw well, now we know the truth !!! So those crazy Palestinians set in motion a chain of events where they were really blown up by their own roadside explosives. Could be classified as death by misadventure or possibly suicide!!
Shame on Israel for allowing such tripe to be reported, if they had any decency at all they would hold their hands up and admit that it was an atrocity and the personnel involved will be punished !

bonkey

Originally posted by Wrestlemania
An unfortunate loss in Civilan life but here is the other side of the story which I tend to agree with:

I tend not to believe anything that presents the presence of gunmen in a crowd of hundreds as fact, and then - of its own activities - says that "The details of the incident continue to be investigated." and that "At this stage it is difficult to determine the cause of the civilian casualties. The incident is being investigated thoroughly at this time."

I'm sorry, but if you can identify gunmen amongst a crowd of hundreds, and also identify who organised the deomnstration, then it is stretching credibility to the extreme to not be able to identify what your own troops did.

Its like "hey - we know there were some people with guns in there, but we have no idea how we killed them."

But hey...you choose your sources...

Either way, its disappointing to see that the Israeli reaction to this tragedy and the international and UN condemnation of it has been to expand its operations in Rafah.

jc

Wrestlemania

Whilst the majority are all against the IDF and tatics, how can you take the word of the Palestinains as credible, look at the lies of Jenin etc.

Mistakes are made but what morons run towards MBT fire and Rocket fire, lunatics and in regard to suicide the Palestinains are great at that life to them in (general) seems very cheap.

I'm sorry, but if you can identify gunmen amongst a crowd of hundreds, and also identify who organised the deomnstration, then it is stretching credibility to the extreme to not be able to identify what your own troops did.

Thats kind of an odd statement. You see, if you look at the peaceful demonstrations that have been happening across Europe over the last 2 years, everyone can acknowledge that there are violent fringes that cause trouble, which can on occasion cause the Police to wade in with riot gear.

on the same note, surely, its also plausible that the IDF recognised some protestors as being armed, and felt that warning shots were the only recourse, since they obviously wouldn't be able to go down after those individuals (since they're contained within the crowd, and would probably have received the normal violence that protestors reserve for police)

I'm not justifying the injuries involved, or the Israeli firing across the path of the protestors march, but, to dismiss the IDF's comments, seems to stretch things a bit. I'll wait and see, what further evidence is produced before i discount the IDF's comments.

(edited for spelling mistakes)

Wrestlemania

One thing i do know, this cycle of violence has to end it is tiring and horrible.

My parents are moving back and this whole madness is worrying.

I think we all agree it has to end sometime just when?

sovtek

Originally posted by klaz
You see, if you look at the peaceful demonstrations that have been happening across Europe over the last 2 years, everyone can acknowledge that there are violent fringes that cause trouble, which can on occasion cause the Police to wade in with riot gear.

Not to mention police in plain clothes that provoke a "response" from said riot police. We've seen it from Genoa to Dublin.

I'm not justifying the injuries involved, or the Israeli firing across the path of the protestors march, but, to dismiss the IDF's comments, seems to stretch things a bit. I'll wait and see, what further evidence is produced before i discount the IDF's comments.

I'm inclined to not believe the IDF merely meant to "warn" with attack helicopters and tanks. It's like the tired line of "civilians caught in the crossfire" so well worn out at Fox News...hell even CBS and CNN try that on from time to time.
It's not like the IDF haven't deliberatly targeted innocent civilians on an almost daily basis.

bonkey

Originally posted by klaz
Thats kind of an odd statement. You see, if you look at the peaceful demonstrations that have been happening across Europe over the last 2 years, everyone can acknowledge that there are violent fringes that cause trouble, which can on occasion cause the Police to wade in with riot gear.

I'm not questioning that dispersal may have been required. I would question the method used, but thats not what I'm driving at.

What I am driving at is that teh statement is able to present with no uncertainty why the crowd which was several hundred strong had to be fired on.

When it comes to the actions of tank and helicopter pilots, however, all of a sudden its unclear as to what they did?????

Its not like most modern weapons platforms have cameras so you can see what they did and didn't shoot at. Its also not like they were in the middle of a riot and had to take snap-shots which could have gone badly astray and where things were so hectic these guys can't quite recall the specifics.

Look - we're talking tanks and helicopters against a crowd of protestors some distance away who might have had some armed people in their midst who were classified as gunmen.

To borrow some lyrics... " It's bows and arrows against the lightning. ", and yet its the actions of hte "lightning" that are unclear????? Come on....

I'm not justifying the injuries involved, or the Israeli firing across the path of the protestors march, but, to dismiss the IDF's comments, seems to stretch things a bit

I'm not dismissing them. I'm saying that there are good reasons to doubt how entirely accurate they are. There are good reasons to doubt how entirely accurate anyone else's run of events are as well, but I as more questioning why Wrestlemania would "tend to agree with" this version. He has since cleared that up - he believes Palestinians are inherently untrustworthy, and - by implication - Israelise to be trustworthy.

I'll wait and see, what further evidence is produced before i discount the IDF's comments.

Likewise. I'm just annoyed (I guess) that they profess regret, claim to be investigating what they don't know - which is only what their own people did, not what the Palestinians were at, apparently - and yet decide that the appropriate reaction on their part to this, while the investigation is ongoing is to step up operations.

Originally posted by Wrestlemania
My parents are moving back and this whole madness is worrying.

I hope it goes well for them. I can imagine its not the most comfortable though to know your family is headed into a storm.

I think we all agree it has to end sometime just when?

When either/both sides abandon their stance of being absolutely correct....which is the direction I wanted to avoid this topic heading down, because its a well-worn and dead-end road with nothing new to see on it as a topic.

jc

Beruthiel

Why does Israel persist in avenging the deaths of its military more forcefully than the deaths of its civilians? Surely this continues to send a message to the Palestinian terrorists that they are far better off bombing civililans? The reprisals are less, and the targets are easier. It doesn't make sense to me....

I don't think they care at this stage and more to the point, when a palestinian hits back by bombing civilians then it helps the Israelis legitimise their standpoint of ‘we are dealing with terrorists here’

Can anyone justify the denial of basic necessities like water to a town of 90,000 in the name of military action against a far, far smaller number

it cannot, under any circumstances justify anything, what are these 90,000 supposed to do now except fight back, they have nothing and are fighting for their very lives, water in any country is a basic need if you wish to continue living.

Media are reporting that the Israelis have confirmed firing 4 tank shells and a helicopter-mounted missile at the protestors who numbered in their thousands. What possible justification can this act have? We're not talking crowd dispersal tactics here, nor have any claims of targetting known terrorists or anything been offered as justification, so what possible justification can there be? Did they mistake the protestors for a mass armed attack?

why tear gas and water cannons could not be used to disperse the crowd is beyond me, again, I don’t think Israel cares anymore, nothing has been done to them in the past for their flagrant misuse of human rights, nothing will be done this time or in the future, not while the USA continues to support them and it will continue to do so because of the jewish lobby in that country.
sickening