The incursion into Palestine...

halkar

Originally posted by Wrestlemania
.....
The IDF while being human are a very professional army compared to their adversaries who think any human in their way is fair game...

"mum, I am going shop for sweets"
"ok, sweetheart"
"mum, my sister shot in the head on the way to shop"
.....

Yeah IDF are very professional when it comes to shooting kids and throwing missiles in to crowed of people regardles what happens. Sounds more like a shooting range for them.

And what about the fact that the people who lost their families and friends was not able to reach to the bodies for days? What was Israel reacting then? You go into places that is not in your borders, destroy and kill as you please and talk about not being hell bent of destruction?

You call them terrorists but you are no better in their eyes with your terrorist leader Sharon just like Arafat . Maybe you should check his Swiss accounts too and his corruptions yet to be unveiled.

Israel did no effort for peace since Rabin. And what happened when he tried to do something? Assasinated by his own people. Thanks for your peace efforts!

Wolfie

This is an interesting debate, the general concensus here seems to be that most people disagree (to put it mildly) with the Israeli aggressive incursion into Rafah. I agree with what Bonkey and Halkar (among others) are saying.

A sidetrack and interesting (and I think important) point has been raised in the bias shown by many news agencies. I dont want to go too far off topic I think this is more and more worrying occurrence. IMO a good news agency should report the facts, and be as unbiased as possible when reporting them. I like BBC personally for this. I recently watched a short news piece on a long serving news reporter for Reuters (and American woman over 80 years of age bless her), who recently retired, and said that their was a lack of information coming through to them which showed the US / Israel in a bad light. She said that there was a definite emphasis put on pro-american reporting, and that it almost seemed that the arab people iddnt matter as much. Interesting. Also, anoyone who watches CNN might be forgiven for thinking they were watching the propoganda channel from 'Starship Troopers'. Its gotten that bad.

Back on topic, Wrestlemania, I try to see your perspective, I honestly do, but your arguments do not hold water, and seem to simply be a defensive reaction of yours as you try to fight against criticism of what I presume are your own culture (Jewish?). If you stand back and look at what your arguments say, they are factually and logically weak. Just as the Sharon government's excuses are. Indeed they have barely bothered to even make an excuse now. Can someone tell me when it became acceptable to kill 10 civilians in order to kill 5 terrorists? Seriously, when did the world decide that to eliminate 5 terrorists was worth the lives of 10 ordinary people? The palestinian people, and the people of Rafah in particular, have become collateral damage. Its like using a sledgehammer to crush one particular grape in a bunch.

The problem is, that we all have to live in the horrible world of extra security, extra control, less freedom, more killing, more terrorism, because of the policies of Sharon and Bush. And when the warmongerers have died off or been voted out, someone else will have to pick up the pieces and try to fix the broken world. What will Sharon and Bush's wars have achieved then? Not much, but some families will never forget what has happened to them. That is the legacy of the US / Israeli axis.

At the end of the day, the peoples of Israel/Palestine. will need to cooperate and become friends to coexist in peace. Can you see this as being at all plausible now? Has Sharon's incursions helped that goal one iota? No, instead he has caused a huge amount of damage on a globabl scale. He is a fool. His tactics have failed and the world has finally realised it. Public opinion will continue to swing against him with each new war crime and outrage committed. And he does all this for security? Every house he bulldozed probably produced a new young kid who will be much more inclined to take up the AK47 or 'martyr' themselves. Sharon, Israeli people, you should be ashamed!

Wrestlemania

Why should the people of Israel be ashamed and not the Arabs....

Bonkey on the point of the settlers, what is actually the law in the PA, to let radical terrorist groups run riot..... The Majority of settlers are law abiding people.

Why shoud Sharon apologise, he has done nothing wrong, he has acted as an normal prime minister should have.

The point on NI about draconian measures was for security as is IDF interaction in the PA.

I know people will not agree and I dont expect them to but the PA are generally terrorists, Arafat a terrorist, he female counterpart a lovely person killed a paraplegic and don't try to compare him to yassin how was a paraplegic that man was innocent yassin got his just deserts.


I am Christian/Zionist for your info Wolfie.

I dont believe in the PA and never will but I dont want to see thousands die but that fate is in the hands of the PA and not Israel they can stop tomorrow if they wanted.

And before you say Bush and his administration are pro-israeli maybe on the outside but they are very much so anti-semtic on the inside.

Israel has no real allies and has to depend on herself and she has defeated many armies before and will continue for quite some time.

And the word "Palestine" does not exist and has not since 1948.

Oh and Halkar, when did a member of Hamas or Islamic Jihad every differenciate between a child and a solider never.

But hey the Palestinians dont really value life when they send children,tennagers and women to blow themselves up...

Talk to them make peace with them hmmmmmmmm Oh yeah it is like talking to a mad dog it will do nothing.!

Joe23

Originally posted by Wrestlemania

I dont believe in the PA and never will but I dont want to see thousands die but that fate is in the hands of the PA and not Israel they can stop tomorrow if they wanted.

And what woudl the outcome of that be, Do you really think that isreal would suddenly start to respect borders? Yes they could stop tomorrow, by surrendering and becoming a sub class in isreal dominated lands.

Originally posted by Wrestlemania

But hey the Palestinians dont really value life when they send children,tennagers and women to blow themselves up...

They send no body, these people's lives are such that they feel killing themselves is the only way out, and they wish to take as many others with them

bonkey

Originally posted by Wrestlemania
Bonkey on the point of the settlers, what is actually the law in the PA, to let radical terrorist groups run riot..... The Majority of settlers are law abiding people.

Who's law are they abiding?

If the PA mandates that only Muslims may own land, will the Settlers leave or convert, or will they continue to hold their lands in defiance of the state?

Do the settlers even recognise the PA as the official authority in charge of them?
Does the Israeli government recognise the PA as the official authority in charge of these settlements?

If not, then what they are doing is indefensibly illegal.

The point on NI about draconian measures was for security as is IDF interaction in the PA.

What?

The point in NI was that the draconian measures weren't blindly accepted by anyone, despite your allegations that it would be different were we talking about a European nation being draconian and not Israel.

You said it wouldn't happen. I'm saying it has happened. Stop trying to dodge the issue.

Israel has no real allies and has to depend on herself and she has defeated many armies before and will continue for quite some time.

Relevance?

And the word "Palestine" does not exist and has not since 1948.

Relevance?

Oh and Halkar, when did a member of Hamas or Islamic Jihad every differenciate between a child and a solider never.

Back to making comparisons again?

Its funny....an Israeli official at the weekend got absolutely lambasted by his own people for saying that the activities reminded him of acts in WW2, and yet here you are saying "at least we're not as bad as them".

So apparently comparisons are OK when they excuse Israel's actions, but not when they condemn them.....

Oh - and let me guess : That Israeli official hates Jews or Israelis....he's clearly anti-Semitic. That must be whats behind it.

And again....what is the relevance?????? If you can't defend "your" nation's actions except to say "but they're worse", then quite frankly you haven't a leg to stand on, and the only higher moral ground you hold is in your fantasies.

Talk to them make peace with them hmmmmmmmm Oh yeah it is like talking to a mad dog it will do nothing.!

And you wonder why peace isn't possible.....

But they are clearly deranged and wrong to believe that Israeli's don't want peace. Israeli's want peace...they just don't believe Palestinians want it! Did it ever occur to you that if they had the reversed belief, that you'd end up in an endless spiral where each of you refused to give peace a chance because each of you was convinced the other side didn't want peace, which was evidenced by their ongoing actions.

Hang on...that sounds terribly like the situation we have today.

Goodness me. What a surprise.

But please...don't let me interrupt your rabid character-assessment. It shows how calm and rational and willing to find a solution you are.

jc

Memnoch

bonkey,
israeli's don't NEED to find a peaceful solution, they will slowly but surely continue their ethnic cleansing of the land of all the palestinians, as they know there will be no reprucussions. The US will always stand behind them. Why should they compromise? they have everything going their way.

sure the international community "condemns" them from time to time, but the international community can use as many words as they like, as long as there is no actual interference or sanctions, why should israel care?

they just have to make sure that they don't overdo it and stay below the threshold that would "force" even america to accept sanctions.

if the palestinians try to fight back at all, this only allows israel to claim their actions are in defence against "terrorists". Do you honestly sincerely think that if the palestinian's laid down all their arms tomorrow and called a completely unilateral ceasefire that they would get a fair deal? I doubt it, but perhaps thats what they SHOULD do, perhaps atleast that way they will get "something", which i guess in practical terms is better than "nothing" if they keep resisting...

isn't justice great?

halkar

Originally posted by Wrestlemania
.....Talk to them make peace with them hmmmmmmmm Oh yeah it is like talking to a mad dog it will do nothing.!

hmmmmmm so that is what happened when your people killed Rabin, the man that got Nobel Peace Prize, the man that had the b@lls to do something about the problems in the region. But, oh no, he was too peacefull for Israel and had to be cleared out.

what is Christian\Zionist ?
Anyway, after a statement like this I am exiting this thread

Memnoch

Originally posted by Moriarty

There are vast swathes of the media owned by news corp. I'll presume from your implications that every news paper and tv station that they own is just another fox news with different window dressing, as far as you're concerned.

nope, but every news paper/station they own follows the agenda of ruport murdoch, whatever that may be.

.. uh. What? Hang on, you're saying that Sky news is the way it is because it supports the (left-wing) current government in power in the UK, but Fox news are the way they are because they.... don't support the current (right-wing) government in power in the USA? You then imply that Fox and Sky have the same (right-wing) editorial biases. What zee foook!?

errr i don't know how you got that? when did i say that fox news DON'T support the right wing govt? They support Bush on a HUGE scale...

Can you find me some international reporting from both on the same or similar incident that demonstrates Skys blatant bias?

ah thats unfortunately easier said than done. I don't sit down with a video tape and pen and paper and meticulously document when they do such things. Their reporting on the war in iraq is a good example though, that has improved in recent times. But if you really want an example, just watch the Little John show. This guy is almost as bad as bill o reily, but he is a lot stupider. The guy rants and raves about how much the immigrants in the UK are eating up the social services and costing hundreds of pounds a week, but when he was actually confronted by a reporter from the Independent (can't remember his name, think it was Johnathan Ross). he couldn't give an exact figure on how much immigrants actually use up which was closer to being like 30 pounds a week, despite his claims in his books and on hair of "hundreds of pounds".

And for your example I could truthfully retort with examples where they may favour the 'left' argument. Never-the-less, if this bias is so indemic throughout sky, you should have no problems giving a few examples of what I asked above ^.

again the problem that you fail to realise, is that sky news is essentially supporting a left-wing government in the UK. So on certain issues they will be seen to lean to the "left". Ironically though we have a left wing government that has gone into a war under dubious circumstances following a right wing US government. Interstingly enough ofc both government's are supported by Ruport Murdoch's media interests.

At what point did I say that I either (a) watched sky exclusively or (b) didn't watch a lot of news24?

i didn't say what you did/didn't watch, i just told you what real journalism is, in case you hadn't seen hard Talk with Tim sebastian. That show is the litmus test by which we can judge the quality or bias of sky news.

Moriarty

Originally posted by Memnoch
nope, but every news paper/station they own follows the agenda of ruport murdoch, whatever that may be.

What agenda do you proport murdoch has with the middle east? Can you actually tell me that you've found a single sky news report that is obviously biased in the same lines that fox news ones can be?

Originally posted by Memnoch
errr i don't know how you got that? when did i say that fox news DON'T support the right wing govt? They support Bush on a HUGE scale...

Right, but thats contrary to what you said and implied in the stuff I quoted in my last post. I figured you were trying to say what you've just said above, but that isn't how it read. At least we got that sorted out.

Originally posted by Memnoch
ah thats unfortunately easier said than done. I don't sit down with a video tape and pen and paper and meticulously document when they do such things. Their reporting on the war in iraq is a good example though, that has improved in recent times.

Ah come on now. News on the middle east isn't exactly hard to come by at the moment. If there was a true bias in sky news international reporting you'd surely be able to find examples fairly quickly. I mean, most of the international coverage for the past year or more has been to do with the middle east.

Originally posted by Memnoch
But if you really want an example, just watch the Little John show. This guy is almost as bad as bill o reily, but he is a lot stupider. The guy rants and raves about how much the immigrants in the UK are eating up the social services and costing hundreds of pounds a week, but when he was actually confronted by a reporter from the Independent (can't remember his name, think it was Johnathan Ross). he couldn't give an exact figure on how much immigrants actually use up which was closer to being like 30 pounds a week, despite his claims in his books and on hair of "hundreds of pounds".

Yeah, he's the stereotypical tabloid journalist. Notice that he isn't taken on to the regular news program as a commentator though? There is a seperation between the two. I don't watch little john and I wouldn't watch sky news if they had the same editorial policies.

Originally posted by Memnoch
again the problem that you fail to realise, is that sky news is essentially supporting a left-wing government in the UK. So on certain issues they will be seen to lean to the "left". Ironically though we have a left wing government that has gone into a war under dubious circumstances following a right wing US government. Interstingly enough ofc both government's are supported by Ruport Murdoch's media interests.

So.... what? Murdoch has all his news organisations staunchly support whatever government is currently in power in that company's jurisdiction? I really can't see where you're going with that.

Lemming

Originally posted by Wrestlemania
Why should the people of Israel be ashamed and not the Arabs....

Because it's being done in their name. The same way the palestinians should be ashamed of the attacks on israeli civilians because it's being done in *their* name.

Why shoud Sharon apologise, he has done nothing wrong, he has acted as an normal prime minister should have.

You have got to be f*cking joking with that statement. I sincerly hope you are. The "logic" in it can only possibly exist inside la-la land.

I dont believe in the PA and never will but I dont want to see thousands die but that fate is in the hands of the PA and not Israel they can stop tomorrow if they wanted.

Oddly enough, every time the palestinians have either called a cease-fire or the PA has rounded up militants, the israeli army then goes and assasinates a few or destroys PA facilities, thus either provoking a response or hindering the curtailing of militant activity. One could very well accuse the Israeli government/military of WANTING the bloodshed to continue

And before you say Bush and his administration are pro-israeli maybe on the outside but they are very much so anti-semtic on the inside.

That would be why they continue to write blank-cheque military funding for Israel as well as back her to the hilt on the international stage? Yup. Those whacky americans ....... what will they think of next? :rolleyes:

But hey the Palestinians dont really value life when they send children,tennagers and women to blow themselves up...

But hey the Israelis dont really value life when they send conscripts to shoot first and laugh second, now do they? Professional my foot.

And before you go off the rails at that last comment, I'm simply showing how 'flip-side of the coin' your last comment was ......

Talk to them make peace with them hmmmmmmmm Oh yeah it is like talking to a mad dog it will do nothing.!

Oddly enough that fits both sides of the conflict oh-so-well.

Redleslie2

Anyone see Saira Shah's Death In Gaza documentary last night? Grim viewing. The kids featured in it had their homes flattened in the latest incursion. There's APTN video footage of her cameraman James Miller being murdered here.

Wrestlemania

Yes I watched it very grim indeed for both sides and those poor kids at such a young age indoctornated to be matrys.

That Mother was right about what is wrong with happiness and not matrydom.

Shame about the reporter, I dunno why those Israeli Bedouin troops killed him.

This is one instance that I am in two minds.

halkar

Originally posted by Wrestlemania
Yes I watched it very grim indeed for both sides and those poor kids at such a young age indoctornated to be matrys.

That Mother was right about what is wrong with happiness and not matrydom.

Shame about the reporter, I dunno why those Israeli Bedouin troops killed him.

This is one instance that I am in two minds.

If you look at Rafah now, those poor kids have nothing better to do other than to be martyrs. And that is where Israel is wrong on her doings on Palestinians. Encouraging these poor kids to become terorists while taking their homes, play ground and their zoo and killing as she is doing all that.
So tell me Wrestlemania , what did your Israel left for these poor kids to do other then pick up AK47 and fight to dead and become martyrs as they beleive?

Also strange that your proffesional IDF become Israeli Bedouin troops now :rolleyes:

Wrestlemania

Halkar if you saw it last night they id'ed the soldiers as bedouins.


Tell me you dont think maytrdom is right, it is not for either side, a life is a life.

What shocked me is a 4 year old child calling jews dogs...

I was educated in a mixed and also jewish school in israel as was my sibling and that kind of hatred was not thought maybe it is in some but i did not see it.

Kids have alternatives to be kids and not to die for a cause that is not worth dying for.

How can any man send a child to death beats me.

And yes the IDF are professional are you saying when I did my service I was not.

And I served in the West Bank FYI and Southern Lebanon in my short time in service.

ssh

Originally posted by Wrestlemania
We all call them the big bad aggressor yet this intifada was called by the radical groups in Sep.2000 and for what?? A lot of people have died because of what was a relatively minor incident.

Imagine if a Nazi war criminal decided he'd like to take a look around the main synagogue in Jersulam, and promptly went and did so? From the perspective of a Palestinian, Sharon walking around the Noble Sanctuary is much the same thing. I'd be pretty pissed off under those circumstances.

bonkey

Originally posted by Wrestlemania
What shocked me is a 4 year old child calling jews dogs...

What age is it acceptable / no longer shocking to start calling people dogs at, as a matter of interest?

I'm only asking because you have referred to dogs in some of your posts recently, so obviously there is an age where its no longer shocking, but acceptable instead.

I was educated in a mixed and also jewish school in israel as was my sibling and that kind of hatred was not thought maybe it is in some but i did not see it.

You learned to call hte PA dogs without school. What makes you think that this case is any different?

And yes the IDF are professional are you saying when I did my service I was not.

Conversely, are you implying that because you believe you carried out your "time" professionally that every other member of the IDF must be the same?

jc

<edited to fix spelling of IDF. Duh me.>

Wrestlemania

1. When I refer to dogs it was "mad dogs" a term used not directly calling people dogs. A child and children calling Jews dogs and pigs... Let me see Nazim, Jew dogs mmmmm we can go on and on.

2. The PA as in the administration and not the average joe soap on the street and not the terrorist, I don't hate, I jsut dont like, if I hate I become as bad as them.

3. A large Majority of the IDF are professional compared to Hamas, Islamic Jihad that use children as look outs as suicide bombers to smuggle weapons now tell me that they are professional, they are men and women hell bent of chaos.

4. The point of Sharon visiting Temple Mount that is a Symbol and shrine for Jew,Muslim and Gentile.So you justify thousands dead for a man visiting a Shrine, I think that is lunacy.

I understand one point, we could go on and on and on. It is not actually going to solve anything at all.

halkar

Originally posted by Wrestlemania
Halkar if you saw it last night they id'ed the soldiers as bedouins.


Tell me you dont think maytrdom is right, it is not for either side, a life is a life.

What shocked me is a 4 year old child calling jews dogs...

I was educated in a mixed and also jewish school in israel as was my sibling and that kind of hatred was not thought maybe it is in some but i did not see it.

Kids have alternatives to be kids and not to die for a cause that is not worth dying for.

How can any man send a child to death beats me.

And yes the IDF are professional are you saying when I did my service I was not.

And I served in the West Bank FYI and Southern Lebanon in my short time in service.

Maytrdom is not right but if that is what they beleive or want to beleive that is their choice. A life is a life but if you go and take the important parts of life like home, family and leave people with nothing, what is the point of living? What other choice does anyone giving these people left Rafah at the moment? Israeli buldozers went in start demolishing with little or no warning as they pleased for so called security of Israel.
Security my @ss!! If you want to demolish anyone's home, first give them somewhere to live offer them shelter instead of threating them like second class (and as you call them "mad dogs") . Do you think that is too much to ask your Democratic Israel?

What is not worth dying for? Yeah sure, Kids have alternatives to be kids until they shot on their heads while walking or stoning your tanks that are trespassing other territories. And they had a zoo before you saw that was too much for them.
Does it ever occur to you that maybe that is what you are teaching those kids, instead of their schools. To hate you there. It must be horrible to see for any kid that their home being taken away from them and seeing missiles flying on their heads while hearing tanks with bullets flying in the air. Can you just put yourself in this picture as a kid and tell me that you will scream "I love Israel for doing this to me"?

I don't know about your service in IDF or whatever you did but they have a funny way of showing how proffesional they are. Maybe they are professional when it comes to playing hide and seek with 13 year old kids and firing missiles in to people that are demonstrating because their houses have been demolished. And that again maybe times have changed as now we are seeing a new movement called Sharonism and even his nick name is Bulldozer Sharon.

halkar

Originally posted by Wrestlemania
....

4. The point of Sharon visiting Temple Mount that is a Symbol and shrine for Jew,Muslim and Gentile.So you justify thousands dead for a man visiting a Shrine, I think that is lunacy..

Can you imagine Bush or Sharon visiting Mecca?

Yeah we could go on Wrestlemania. I advice you to visit some Palestinian places when you go to Israel see yourself what has your Israel done to them. They don't need to go to school to learn to hate you, you are teaching them to hate you.
Anyway life goes on and me be off to Israel again sometime this summer
All these troubles aside it is a great place to be and for some reason everytime I pass Jerusalem streets I feel like holy saint Nothing holy about me though :ninja:

All the best, cheers for peace :cool:

Lemming

Originally posted by Wrestlemania
1. When I refer to dogs it was "mad dogs" a term used not directly calling people dogs. A child and children calling Jews dogs and pigs... Let me see Nazim, Jew dogs mmmmm we can go on and on.

/me dances
Racism, Racism, Racism, lets all do a dance for Racism.
/me ends dance

When is it right Wrestlemania? You fail to be grasping the point bonkey made about "dogs" ......

3. A large Majority of the IDF are professional compared to Hamas, Islamic Jihad that use children as look outs as suicide bombers to smuggle weapons now tell me that they are professional, they are men and women hell bent of chaos.

"Oh, I killed a person. But that guy killed 25. Look at what he did before you condemn me"

*cough cough COUGH*

Making comparisons is fatally flawed. The Israeli army is the official militia of an internationally recognised soverign state. It is bound by the Geneva convention, amongst other laws. it sure isn't acting like anything other than a bigger & better funded version of Hamas.

ssh

Originally posted by Wrestlemania
4. The point of Sharon visiting Temple Mount that is a Symbol and shrine for Jew,Muslim and Gentile.So you justify thousands dead for a man visiting a Shrine, I think that is lunacy.

Indeed, the (Temple Mount|Al Haram al-Sharif) is a multi-religous shrine... but we aren't talking about "a man". We're talking about a man who, at least in the eyes of your average Palestinian carried out the destruction of their family's villages in his youth and orchestrated the murder of at least 1,000 of their people in the early 80s. The realities of what happened in the Lebanon are irrelevant in this circumstance, it is purely a question of perception.

In my mind, it was a deliberate act of provocation, indeed much as the incursions into the refugee camps are.

bug

3) Media are reporting that the Israelis have confirmed firing 4 tank shells and a helicopter-mounted missile at the protestors who numbered in their thousands. What possible justification can this act have? We're not talking crowd dispersal tactics here, nor have any claims of targetting known terrorists or anything been offered as justification, so what possible justification can there be? Did they mistake the protestors for a mass armed attack?

I doubt it, I think that they are sending a clear message to the protestors. They know they can bascially get away with anything because of the US veto. They know there is international outrage. But hey they can get away with it and I dont think they care.
They dont even have to make excuses anymore....
as an aside I had noticed that these incursions had somehow always coincided (coincidentally perhaps?) with large media events, like when Rumsfeldt was talking at the 9-11 enquiry for example.

Also the tunnels that were for transporting weapons, I think Memnoch mentioned,
I heard in a BBC report last year that the palastinians build tunnels between each other's houses (relatives and neighbours) so that they dont run the risk of bumping into Israeli soldiers on the streets. I dont know if this applies in this particular situation in Rafah.

ssh

Originally posted by bug
I heard in a BBC report last year that the palastinians build tunnels between each other's houses (relatives and neighbours) so that they dont run the risk of bumping into Israeli soldiers on the streets. I dont know if this applies in this particular situation in Rafah.

There are no doubt tunnels for that purpose, but I don't think anyone is denying that the targetted tunnels in this case are in fact cross border ones which server no purpose other than the transportation of weapons and Islamic Jihad fighters (which is more or less an Egyptian organisation).

Memnoch

Originally posted by ssh
There are no doubt tunnels for that purpose, but I don't think anyone is denying that the targetted tunnels in this case are in fact cross border ones which server no purpose other than the transportation of weapons and Islamic Jihad fighters (which is more or less an Egyptian organisation).

what targetted tunnels????

i'm still waiting for evidence to show me that there was a tunnel under every single house that was demolished?

this tunnel rubbish is just an excuse.

tell me, how many houses have the demolished and how many tunnels are there?

they can't go aroudn demolishing the homes of innocent people because they suspect that their might be tunnels somewhere...

bonkey

Originally posted by Wrestlemania
1. When I refer to dogs it was "mad dogs" a term used not directly calling people dogs.

You must admit that you at least walk a fine line with that distinction?

3. A large Majority of the IDF are professional compared to Hamas,

I've already pointed out that such comparisons are worthless. I'll accept that you meant to say "A large majority of the IDF are highly professional", and I won't disagree with you for a second.

I will, however, ask you about the minority who are - by your own admission (and my generous rewording of it...see why comparisons serve no-one?) - not highly professional. Is it not - at the very least - possible that some of the acts carried out against the Palestinians were acts of random cruelty and/or violence? If so, is it not right that we at least question the acts when they appear unjustifiable?

And yet, when we do so, rather than meeting a government willing to allow the world to see justice being done, we more often get intransigence, if not downright hostility, and increased cries of persecution.

4. The point of Sharon visiting Temple Mount that is a Symbol and shrine for Jew,Muslim and Gentile.So you justify thousands dead for a man visiting a Shrine, I think that is lunacy.

I agree that it is lunacy. I would follow, however, by saying that the lunacy has since been perpetuated by neither side being willing to trust the other enough to genuinely seek an end to this.

I understand one point, we could go on and on and on. It is not actually going to solve anything at all.

Mostly, I'm seeking to understand more about those who this is about - the Israelis and the Palestinians. Of course it won't change anything....but if that is our yardstick, then what worth any disucssion?

jc

ssh

Originally posted by Memnoch
what targetted tunnels????

i'm still waiting for evidence to show me that there was a tunnel under every single house that was demolished?

this tunnel rubbish is just an excuse.

tell me, how many houses have the demolished and how many tunnels are there?

they can't go aroudn demolishing the homes of innocent people because they suspect that their might be tunnels somewhere...

You're damn right they can't, but they still do.

Anyway, two seperate issues... the demolition of the houses is done under the vague guise of punishing families and destroying the safe houses of militants.

They have been destroying crossborder tunnels, I've seen footage of it.

halkar

If it was for tunnels why didn't they dig their so called Philadelphi Road and stop the tunnels without leaving people in misery? At least lives would have been spared and wouldn't have caused so much tension in the region. Once more they have showed the world how peaceful they are and expect them to understand?
World seen what happened, they seem to forget that the times changed and world is watching. When world objects they are called anti-semitics. I am sorry Israel but you call yourself a Jewish state and you are the one giving your own identity a bad name not only to yourself but all the Jews in the world. How long you can hide behind your past and start moving on?
I am very doubtful that Israel wants Palestinian state to be formed, they have yet to show a peaceful sign and they are not only risking themselves but also the all of middle east which is already in a mess.

bug

I have to agree with halkar, would have been so much easier as far as I can see to bring in a good few cement trucks and pump the tunnels...if there were tunnels and they knew where they were etc....

Victor

3. A large Majority of the IDF are professional compared to Hamas,

Actually "professional" (in military terms a volunteer soldier) is an odd word to use with an army comprising conscripts, militia, politically motivated individuals and factions (Jewish and from various Arab tribes), de facto mercenaries and so on.

Originally posted by bug
I have to agree with halkar, would have been so much easier as far as I can see to bring in a good few cement trucks and pump the tunnels...if there were tunnels and they knew where they were etc....

It wouldn't work - you could just dig around the concrete. Although it would certainly make many tunnels much more difficult to use as they use pulley systems to transport the smuggled goods / arms. Using explosives destabilises the ground around the tunnel, making that whole tunnel unusable and the ground around it unstable (this has the knock on effect of destabilising buildings).

bug

It wouldn't work - you could just dig around the concrete. Although it would certainly make many tunnels much more difficult to use as they use pulley systems to transpor the smuggled goods / arms.Using explosives destalises the ground around the tunnel, making that whole tunnel unusuable and the ground it unstable (this has the knock on effect of destabilising buildings).

destabilising buildings as opposed to ..eh..just going in and knocking them down...I dont think that the safety of the palastinians in their homes would be at the forefront of the Israeli military's thoughts, somehow..(where did you get the idea of underground explosives )

as for the tunnels being pumped with concrete..yeah you could just dig around them but it would slow down the process considerably, and seems like the most rational way to stop the usage of these supposed tunnels. There are many other options on how the israelis could have done this, if indeed they were looking for or trying to prevent the usage of smuggling arms. Somehow I dont think this was their agenda at all.