Viable Replacement for Motor Tax?

Seth Brundle

Originally posted by mike65
Deffo - me starts musing about a V8 Rover P6
Mike.

the rover V8 - one of the best ever V8 engines!

unkel

3.5 V8 P6 - with the spare sticking out of the back :cool:

Must have already looked ancient when I was born though - this was before the 70's

That was the same time that everyone realised Rover was not to be a top marque anymore

Have to say at the time I liked it's successor, the 3500 VandenPlas of the late 70's - sounds much more posh than Sterling to me

Mythago

Must admit admit as the owner of a 2.5 litre car I really hate the Irish road tax system (but currently the car is registered in the UK, but dread bringing it home!). Car recently sat it's MOT, and while chatting to the inspector he commented that my '96 2.5l engine was running lower emissions that a number of '00 fiesta's, micra's and the like. So naturally I'd loved to see an emissions based tax! Owners of current shape LPT SAAB 9-3's would love this as the CAT is so efficient the exhaust is cleaner than in air taken in in city driving!? (ref: TOP GEAR some time last yr).

Also, with regards to the "pay as you go" tax on petrol, I reckon this is as good as, if not better than the emissions idea.... he who drives pays, it also nabs people who are living in Ireland without re-registering foreign cars (myself included!).

PBC_1966

Originally posted by Mythago
Also, with regards to the "pay as you go" tax on petrol, I reckon this is as good as, if not better than the emissions idea.... he who drives pays, it also nabs people who are living in Ireland without re-registering foreign cars (myself included!).

If you also have a non-Irish driver's license, is this ever likely to be queried? You get pulled up with British plates, say, and produce a UK license with a British address on it. Everything looks fine, right?

The only problem I see would be keeping the UK tax disc current once the MoT expires, although if you're near the border you could hop over to get a new MoT certificate, I suppose.

leeroybrown

I also agree that a fuel based tax would be a more preferable alternative to the current motor taxation system.

It would have several advantages:

• Ecological focus - Fuel burned is a good approximation of environmental impact. Encourages reduction by taxation incentive.
• Usage focus - The more you burn the larger your potential impact on roadways is.
• Staggered payment - you pay as an expense not as an one off cost.

There would also be several issues/problems (most from the governments point of view):

• Lacks the car number tracking element of tax discs.
• Requires significant alteration to current collection methodologies. They're messing with the civil service more than enough as it is.
• The government like the current X cars by Y euro guaranteed payment. They get the money either way.
• Government will lose the ability to tax environmentally friendly cars (tax they would levy without a problem)
• Open to gov. abuse - price hikes every budget.

Ultimately, I'd love to see an alternate taxation scheme but it's quite easy to think of many reasons for the government to avoid the issue completely.

Mythago

If you also have a non-Irish driver's license, is this ever likely to be queried? You get pulled up with British plates, say, and produce a UK license with a British address on it. Everything looks fine, right?

Looks fine, but, having spoken to a mate in the Gardai he said it isn't uncommon for gards to keep track of foreign plated cars. i.e. cops will query a UK plate thats been in say shannon for a couple of months. As for the licence, I have considered getting a UK licence (i work there alot) but with the huge amount of speed cameras I'd probably lose it pretty rapidly:rolleyes: Also there are issues with driver obligation to convert his licence within 3 months (I think).

Either way I will worry about it all in Mid-july when I get back to Ireland & take the car out(probably get pulled within minutes!)

Gmodified

If you also have a non-Irish driver's license, is this ever likely to be queried? You get pulled up with British plates, say, and produce a UK license with a British address on it. Everything looks fine, right?

Looking at amount of LV reg cars from Latvia, I don't think the law is really enforced as used to be before. Not mentioning VRT people

PBC_1966

Originally posted by Mythago
Also there are issues with driver obligation to convert his licence within 3 months (I think).

You might want to check on that. According to the DVLA, under new EU rules you can use a license from an EU country in any other EU country for as long as it remains valid, which for our new photo card licenses is up to 10 years.

I believe there's a law here which says that a British resident musn't drive a car which doesn't carry UK plates. So if you came over to visit from Ireland, with an Irish registered car, it would technically be illegal for me to drive it here. More crazy bureaucracy! :rolleyes: There's probably something similar in Irish law.

unkel

Constructive post leeroybrown

I feel these disadvantages aren't major:

Originally posted by leeroybrown

• Lacks the car number tracking element of tax discs.

Tracking is already done on vehicle license

Originally posted by leeroybrown

• Requires significant alteration to current collection methodologies. They're messing with the civil service more than enough as it is.

Collection as now through the fuel distribution channel. Big saving on civil service as motor taxation departments are dissolved

Originally posted by leeroybrown

• Government will lose the ability to tax environmentally friendly cars (tax they would levy without a problem)

Do you mean subsidise environmentally friendly cars? In that case a subsidy on the purchase price would do the trick. Applied successfully in several European countries in relation to LPG, catalytic convertors, electric cars, etc.

Originally posted by leeroybrown

• The government like the current X cars by Y euro guaranteed payment. They get the money either way.
• Open to gov. abuse - price hikes every budget.

Now it's getting tricky. The government has now become accustomed to receiving large amounts in VRT, motor taxation and fuel duties, not to mention the VAT on new cars and insurance levies. If all these were to be applied on a zero sum base (from the government's viewpoint), we'd probably be looking at a price for unleaded petrol of at least €2 :eek:

Years ago in the Netherlands, the Finance Minister upped the duty on petrol by €0.12 per liter to "discourage people to drive as much". Later it was leaked that in the budget for the year after the hike, a slightly increased total petrol consumption was forecast instead of a fall. Nice little earner so, nought to do with feelings for the environment etc.

Victor

Originally posted by unkel
Years ago in the Netherlands, the Finance Minister upped the duty on petrol by €0.12 per liter to "discourage people to drive as much". Later it was leaked that in the budget for the year after the hike, a slightly increased total petrol consumption was forecast instead of a fall. Nice little earner so, nought to do with feelings for the environment etc.

And if they didn't increase the tax, consumption would have gone up further, wouldn't it?

leeroybrown

Firstly, when I was thinking of those cons, I was deliberately thinking from a position of maintaining the status quo.

Originally posted by unkel
Collection as now through the fuel distribution channel. Big saving on civil service as motor taxation departments are dissolved

True. That is a definite bonus and would free up resources to increase staffing to other civil posts, but then you get into a game of fiefdoms. Whenever you try a wholesale change theres natural inertia from the civil service.

Originally posted by unkel
Do you mean subsidise environmentally friendly cars? In that case a subsidy on the purchase price would do the trick. Applied successfully in several European countries in relation to LPG, catalytic convertors, electric cars, etc.

It was actually a slightly tongue in cheek comment. What I meant was that by focusing on a hydrocarbon fuel metred taxation system the government would move electric (and other environmentally friendly) vechicles outside the normal road tax net. Personally, I think this would be a good thing until newer technologies reached a critical mass of usage, but the minister for finance might just see this as disappearing revenue.

unkel

Originally posted by Victor
And if they didn't increase the tax, consumption would have gone up further, wouldn't it?

Only marginally. Petrol prices are almost as inelastic as cigarettes

Double the price of a pack of fags and consumption might go down maybe 5%

seamus

Originally posted by Victor
And if they didn't increase the tax, consumption would have gone up further, wouldn't it?

I don't think so. People, on the whole, drive as much as they need to. They don't suddenly find any new places to go.

One or two people might change their habits, but the vast majority would do exactly what they did before. I would believe that the only way to increase or decrease consumption by any great amount is to increase or decrease the number of drivers on the road.

It's a bit like food. You wouldn't expect people to eat more or less based on a small change in the cost of food.

unkel

Originally posted by leeroybrown
Personally, I think this would be a good thing until newer technologies reached a critical mass of usage, but the minister for finance might just see this as disappearing revenue.

See your logic

Surely the minister wouldn do that? :rolleyes:

pedro ferio-vti

Some excellent points being made here in this thread, but the current system is focused purely on being pro-enterprise just like the rest of Irelands tax infrastructure. Actually if you look at any of Fianna Fail TD Eoin Ryans election leaflets he boasts on being "pro-enterprise" in a gesture to generate votes....... i'd never vote for those crooked Fianna Fail ba$tards.

Would an emissions based system be better? Of course it would, any right thinking person would spot that, but it's not pro-enterprise unfortunately. While i'm writing did anybody notice their car tax go up this year? Probably not, I did over 6 months ago when they sent me out a letter to tax a car I had just bought.

I haven't paid road tax in about a year and a half or maybe 2 years ago, my car has a 2 litre engine and I'd be forced to pay 566 euro or there abouts for the luxury of driving on quite possibly the worst roads in europe so I refuse to pay it, not only on the grounds of the state of our roads but also on the fact that virtually NONE of the revenue generated from Road Tax goes back into improving our roads but merely compensates for numerous government cockups and payrises for our TDs......

Bah look what u feckers started, i'm angry now going to bed!!! :mad: :mad:

Pete

Seth Brundle

Originally posted by pedro ferio-vti
Would an emissions based system be better? Of course it would, any right thinking person would spot that, but it's not pro-enterprise unfortunately.

Who would run it? NCT - they are as crooked as the politicians!
Anyway, emissions test results can vary wildly so it may not really be fair.

PBC_1966

Originally posted by pedro ferio-vti
also on the fact that virtually NONE of the revenue generated from Road Tax goes back into improving our roads but merely compensates for numerous government cockups and payrises for our TDs......

A familiar cry on this side of the Irish Sea as well.....

By the way, the old French "vignette" system was based on engine size (also with slight variations from one department to another), but the rates were much lower. They also halved the standard rate for cars over, IIRC, 5 years old. A couple of years ago they scrapped their equivalent of the road-tax system altogether.

pedro ferio-vti

Originally posted by kbannon
Who would run it? NCT - they are as crooked as the politicians!
Anyway, emissions test results can vary wildly so it may not really be fair.

I was referring more directly to putting the road tax onto the price of petrol which in a roundabout way is a *kind* of emissions based tax in that the more you drive the more tax you pay. I know theres various cars that are more economical than others i.e. a V8 is gonna chew petrol moreso than a micra for example but I think it offers those who cannot afford to pay for the petrol to drive a more economical car.

Although I could probably sit here typing for most of the day on this subject, unfortunately it won't get us anywhere. There's not a lot of options really, what do you do? Emigrate?!?!?

Actually rather than jack this thread i'm gonna set up an emigration thread here:

Emigration Discussion

I'm just trying to gauge opinions with this thread not trying to persuade ppl to leave the country!:eek:

Pete

Victor

Originally posted by pedro ferio-vti
also on the fact that virtually NONE of the revenue generated from Road Tax goes back into improving our roads but merely compensates for numerous government cockups and payrises for our TDs......

Well expenditure on roads is 4-5 times the income from Road Tax.

Gmodified

Well expenditure on roads is 4-5 times the income from Road Tax.

r we building roads in Spain or something. there is small improvement but generally we have long way to go

Seth Brundle

Originally posted by Victor
Well expenditure on roads is 4-5 times the income from Road Tax.

source?

According to the AA
""Government has allocated €7 billion for roads over a five year 'envelope'." Says Faughnan. “Yet in that period we will have paid well in excess of €20 billion in motoring taxes. We demand that this money is spent more effectively and efficiently. We do not need to pay yet again" url]http://www.aaireland.ie/news/article.asp?news_Id=363[/url

I think one part that has been ignoired by the whole thread is the fact that utility companies dig up the roads for a nominal fee, do a half-arsed repair job which then needs to be repaired properly by the local authority. The local authority does get some money off the company but IIRC not enough.

Victor

Originally posted by kbannon
"motoring taxes"

Are not just Road Tax, the AA are including any tax with anything to do with motoring, including VAT on fluffy dice.

Originally posted by kbannon
I think one part that has been ignoired by the whole thread is the fact that utility companies dig up the roads for a nominal fee, do a half-arsed repair job which then needs to be repaired properly by the local authority. The local authority does get some money off the company but IIRC not enough.

The Communications Regulation Act 2002 (?) changes that, but no the digger-uppers aren't paying the full economic cost yet.

leeroybrown

On the point of motor taxation being used on roads:

We're in the unfortunate position of having to service a very large amount of road way based on a relatively small population. I remember seeing a comparison of ourselves and the UK in terms of population and the level of roads to mantain. It was quite startling how much worse off we were road to person.

Victor

Ireland:
Population: 3,924,140 (July 2003 est.)
Roads: 92,500 km
Roads/capita: 23.6m each

UK:
Population: 60,094,648 (July 2003 est.)
Roads: 371,913 km
Roads/capita: 6.2m each

Seth Brundle

Originally posted by Victor
Are not just Road Tax, the AA are including any tax with anything to do with motoring, including VAT on fluffy dice.

yes - I wasn't thinking straight!

jongore

Originally posted by Victor
Ireland:
Population: 3,924,140 (July 2003 est.)
Roads: 92,500 km
Roads/capita: 23.6m each

UK:
Population: 60,094,648 (July 2003 est.)
Roads: 371,913 km
Roads/capita: 6.2m each

At the moment we pay about 50% more then the U.K in road tax (Depends on the car, use this to check how much your tax would be in U.K. )
Hands up who wants to pay four time the U.K rate, 'cause that's what it'll take to get our roads to their standard.

Tommy Vercetti

Originally posted by kbannon
source?

According to the AA
""Government has allocated €7 billion for roads over a five year 'envelope'." Says Faughnan. “Yet in that period we will have paid well in excess of €20 billion in motoring taxes. We demand that this money is spent more effectively and efficiently. We do not need to pay yet again" url]http://www.aaireland.ie/news/article.asp?news_Id=363[/url

the AA can go feck themselves, that whingebag Faughnan is always moaning about motoring costs yet his own organisation won't even insure people uder 27

I demand he stfu!

unkel

Originally posted by jongore
Hands up who wants to pay four time the U.K rate, 'cause that's what it'll take to get our roads to their standard.

Yes please

4 times the uk roadtax for my 735iA V8 is 4*£165 = £660 which equates to €985. That would mean a saving of 27% compared to my current Irish road tax of €1343

AND I would get good quality roads as well :eek:

jongore for Taoiseach