Dropping down

Anima

Hello,

I'm considering dropping down from honours to pass on the day of the exam. Do i have to give any notice or do i just say i'm doing pass on the day?

What about Irish, when you've already done the oral, do they re-correct that or something?

Kold

AFAIK you can take any paper on the day, no notice needed. I think the Oral doesn't matter all that much as it just takes up less of your overall grade.

subway_ie

Just make sure you know the layout of the ordinary level paper, and are familiar with the course content. Alot of subjects (eg maths) can have some fairly big differences between the higher and ordinary level papers - especially if you've spent the last 3/4 months doing higher level papers.

Anima

Danke

subway_ie

If I were you, I would think seriously about dropping down. Two things:
1) If you think you're going to get a D (or lower :dunno: ) in higher, then don't take the risk of sitting the higher level paper. Might be the difference between college and repeating.
2) Same kind of idea as 1) : there's a huge difference between points in higher and ordinary level - it's practicaly impossible to get an A1 in ordinary level, while it's quite manageable to get a C3 in higher level (points equivalent of ordinary A1). If you think you can get 40%, and need the points, then go for the higher. It's a risk, but if you're confident, and work hard, then it might be worth it.

Good luck.

Seifer

All orals are common level ie. the examiner doesn't know/care whether wou're doing honours or pass so you can drop down.
However there are some subjects like home ec. where you have to hand in a project that is specifically honours or pass before the main exams so you can't drop.
Make sure you get a look at the pass papers before going in if you're pretty sure you'll drop.

subway_ie

Originally posted by Seifer
All orals are common level ie. the examiner doesn't know/care whether wou're doing honours or pass so you can drop down.

Well, they know from the list that the teachers give them, ranking your position in the class... It's not required that they get one, but most teachers use them .

Seifer

We did it in an order based on students preferences of when they wanted to do it.
According to our teacher they know from your first minute what level you are anyway.

subway_ie

Originally posted by Seifer
We did it in an order based on students preferences of when they wanted to do it.
According to our teacher they know from your first minute what level you are anyway.

We just did it according to exam numbers, ie alphabetically. The list I was talking about is a list of your position (grades/ability) in the class, just incase you thought it was somebody else. It'd be hard for them not to know whether you were higher/ordinary from your standard, for the most part anyway. Plus, I know she asked most of my class what level subjects they were doing, so even if she didnt know when they went in, they told her.

senordingdong

Originally posted by Seifer
All orals are common level ie. the examiner doesn't know/care whether wou're doing honours or pass so you can drop down.

No theyre not, higher level orals are worth 25% and ordianry level orals are worth 20%. The aurals are the other way around.

Also Animo, youll be able to drop down on the day without having to give any notice.

Dman_15

The orals are identical for both honours and pass.
They have to be because people dont have to decide which paper they do until the day of the exam. It will be obvious to an oral examiner who is doing honours or pass but he/she marks everyone identically and the final marks are then normalised based on whether you decide to do the pass or honours paper.

senordingdong

Originally posted by Dman_15
The orals are identical for both honours and pass.

No theyre not, if it becomes obvious to the exmaminer that student x is doing higher level and is quite good at it then theyll ask harder questions.

Originally posted by Dman_15
They have to be because people dont have to decide which paper they do until the day of the exam. It will be obvious to an oral examiner who is doing honours or pass but he/she marks everyone identically and the final marks are then normalised based on whether you decide to do the pass or honours paper.

And no, according to the rules of this matter, you are expected to sit the same level paper as the level you were doing when you dow your oral.
Alot of teachers dont know this, my teacher didnt know and i only found out becasue i read it in the times.
Obviously you can drop down if you want, no-ones gonna care, the examiner correcting the exam will just switch the oral and aural marks around.

subway_ie

Originally posted by senordingdong
No theyre not, if it becomes obvious to the exmaminer that student x is doing higher level and is quite good at it then theyll ask harder questions.

If you're good, and doing ordinary level, they'll still ask you the same hard questions as they would ask a higher level student. They'll know whether you're ordinary or higher, but they still won't go past your limits. If you're a poor higher level student, then they'll only ask questions that fit your ability. The exam is, in effect, the same for higher and ordinary. The results are just adjusted for your level, but only after the exam.

senordingdong

Originally posted by subway_ie
If you're good, and doing ordinary level, they'll still ask you the same hard questions as they would ask a higher level student.

Maybe, but the hardest question the good ordinary level students in my year were asked was what they would like to change about the school, the hardest question i was asked (doing higher level) was my opinion on George Bush's foreign policy.

subway_ie

Originally posted by senordingdong
Maybe, but the hardest question the good ordinary level students in my year were asked was what they would like to change about the school, the hardest question i was asked (doing higher level) was my opinion on George Bush's foreign policy.

I'm doing ordinary level (for time reasons as opposed to ability) and I was asked about the failings of the criminal justice system (re: Annabel cases, sentencing was happening around the time of the oral). The rest was the usual crap, underage drinking (since I said I worked in a pub), pressures of leaving cert, etc. It was roughly what the (half-decent) higher level people were asked.

senordingdong

Originally posted by subway_ie
I'm doing ordinary level (for time reasons as opposed to ability) and I was asked about the failings of the criminal justice system (re: Annabel cases, sentencing was happening around the time of the oral). The rest was the usual crap, underage drinking (since I said I worked in a pub), pressures of leaving cert, etc. It was roughly what the (half-decent) higher level people were asked.

Ah fair enough, i guess it all boils down to different examiners.

Seifer

No theyre not, higher level orals are worth 25% and ordianry level orals are worth 20%. The aurals are the other way around.

Yes they are. You're confusing two different things. The oral is common level (just like cspe at junior cert) everyone is marked on the same scale but yes they are worth different percentages of your total mark.

And no, according to the rules of this matter, you are expected to sit the same level paper as the level you were doing when you dow your oral.
Alot of teachers dont know this, my teacher didnt know and i only found out becasue i read it in the times.

I read that article in the times and it infuriated me because it's wrong and an article in a national newspaper written by the head guidance councillor should not have such serious errors. You can and are allowed to drop after the orals.

Obviously you can drop down if you want, no-ones gonna care, the examiner correcting the exam will just switch the oral and aural marks around.

That's just stupid. Have you met the department of education? There is no way in hell they would not care if you're breaking the rules.

senordingdong

Originally posted by Seifer
Yes they are. You're confusing two different things. The oral is common level (just like cspe at junior cert) everyone is marked on the same scale but yes they are worth different percentages of your total mark.

No im not. Im right, and if you disagree with me, your wrong.
Anyway, you just approved what i said in that reply.

Originally posted by Seifer
I read that article in the times and it infuriated me because it's wrong and an article in a national newspaper written by the head guidance councillor should not have such serious errors. You can and are allowed to drop after the orals.

No, believe it or not, that IS the rule. Always has been, but the dept. see this matter the same way most students do and so allow you to change your level whenever you feel like it.
Again, your pointing out the same things i am.

Originally posted by Seifer
That's just stupid. Have you met the department of education? There is no way in hell they would not care if you're breaking the rules.

Yes, yes i have met the dept. of education. I met the entire Department of Education & Science, for real, a nice bunch of people they are, infact were going out again on friday night if you want to come with.

Seifer

No im not. Im right, and if you disagree with me, your wrong.
Anyway, you just approved what i said in that reply.

If the orals weren't common level the examiner would ask you what level you're doing or it'd be on the list you sign.
I didn't approve what you said I merely refered to it.

DS

Officially, the examiner doesn't know what level you are doing, whether your teacher gives them a list or not. My teacher gave her a list of our mock oral marks, which didn't indicate what level we were doing, just what standard we were at.

Yes, the examiner asks easier questions to pass students. Why? Not because they are a pass student. It is because they have poor French. The guidelines to the examiner are very simple. Start off with the basic questions with every student to establish the standard of their French, and keep raising the bar until the student's limits become evident. If they are doing well, they get asked hard questions. It is obvious that in general pass students get asked easier questions for that reason, but it is not justification for saying that there is a pass oral and an honours oral and that they are different, and that this difference is recognized by the department.

The mark a student gets in the oral does have a different significance depending on their level when their final grade is being compiled, when the student has sat either the pass or hons paper. But the principle is that every student sits the same oral. The level, marks etc is sorted out at a much later date.

senordingdong

Originally posted by Seifer
If the orals weren't common level the examiner would ask you what level you're doing or it'd be on the list you sign.

It is on the list you sign.

Originally posted by Seifer
I didn't approve what you said I merely refered to it.

In your attempt to correct me, you said the exact same thing that i did.

senordingdong

Originally posted by Discharger Snake
but it is not justification for saying that there is a pass oral and an honours oral

Thats not what i was saying.

Originally posted by Discharger Snake
The mark a student gets in the oral does have a different significance depending on their level when their final grade is being compiled,

Thats what i said.

DS

Well, in response to someone saying "The orals are identical for both honours and pass.", you said "No theyre not", which is incorrect. They are identical, and they are marked identically at the time.

After the whole LC, there's some jiggery pokery with the marks for the oral which has nothing to do with the actual examination. Depending on whether you do pass or honours, your oral score is viewed differently. This is completely independent of the oral, and if that's what you were talking about the whole time, that's just a silly technicality

senordingdong

Originally posted by Discharger Snake
Well, in response to someone saying "The orals are identical for both honours and pass.", you said "No theyre not", which is incorrect.

Ah yeah we cleared this up already, some teachers decide not to tell the examiner the level their students are doing and so some get a "common" oral.

Originally posted by Discharger Snake
After the whole LC, there's some jiggery pokery with the marks for the oral which has nothing to do with the actual examination. Depending on whether you do pass or honours, your oral score is viewed differently. This is completely independent of the oral, and if that's what you were talking about the whole time, that's just a silly technicality

Again, isnt that what i said?

Seifer

Obviously you're reading my replies as you make reference to them in yours but I don't think you understand them.

In your attempt to correct me, you said the exact same thing that i did.

No I didn't I REFERED to your point about the irish times and informed you why it was wrong. I did not agree with you on it.

Ah yeah we cleared this up already, some teachers decide not to tell the examiner the level their students are doing and so some get a "common" oral.

Are you mad? This couldn't possibly work, ever. How could grades be compiled if people doing the same exam were taking some parts of it at different levels?

senordingdong

Originally posted by Seifer
No I didn't I REFERED to your point about the irish times and informed you why it was wrong. I did not agree with you on it.

What makes you so sure your right on this matter, you being just one insignifigant student, compared to the head guidance councillor, dept. of education etc...?

Originally posted by Seifer
Are you mad? This couldn't possibly work, ever. How could grades be compiled if people doing the same exam were taking some parts of it at different levels?

Becasue your grade is based on how you answer the question asked, just like the rest of the leaving cert.