[article] They Have'nt Gone Away You Know!

colster

Originally posted by irish1
ReefBreak I really resent the way you blaim Sinn Fein for the murders of hundreds of innocent people.

Sinn Fein are a polictical party with LINKS to the IRA they are not the same organisation.
If I wanted to draw comparisons maybe I could say that the FF/Bush administration is responsible for the killing of hundreds of inoccent people in Iraq and the torture and murder of prisioners.

However I have enough of an understanding to see that even do FF have supported the Bush war in Iraq by allowing thousands of Soldiers to use Shannon airport, they are not the same organisation they are simply 2 groups with LINKS.

That isn't comparable and you know it. How many FF members are members of the US Army. How many SF members are members of the IRA?
How much power over the US Army does FF have?
How many members of SF are members of the IRA's army council?
Have SF ever condemned or dis-associated themselves from the bombings, murders or punishment beatings committed by the IRA.

colster

Originally posted by TheMuckyArab
Hey i`m all against socialism(being a rich and greedy bastard myself) but the PD's are going to far on the Sinn Fein bashing.

As the SF'er said it`s all about period in time, before we were taught about the heroes of 16, what's the diffrence?

The Provisionals did`nt wake up one day and decide the "take back the north", they provided protection for their people, who's fathers , brothers and sons were being intered and tortured(What makes me laugh is the British Army goes on thats what the stuff they did in Iraq once a once off), and all this apparent proof McDowell has provided us with has yiether yet to be substaniated, or is like that brilliant IMC report, which most comically had three lads the Provo`s wewre supposed to have killed, but up until then their families had been informed they had died in accidents(which they did), and one died in RUC custody!

See this for what it is a PD stunt done by Mr. McDowell who is nothing but an opportunist, combining this with his racial referendum(which as a mucky arab I don`t feel partial to ;-) )

DEPORT MCDOWELL- cause he a stinker and just plain rude, forget about the politics.

Since when is Warrington, Enniskillen or Omagh self defence?

Villain

Originally posted by colster
That isn't comparable and you know it. How many FF members are members of the US Army. How many SF members are members of the IRA?

To my knowledge answer to both is 0

Originally posted by colster

How much power over the US Army does FF have?

They have the power to not let them use Shannon and disaccoiate themselves from the war.

Originally posted by colster

How many members of SF are members of the IRA's army council?

Answered above to my knowledge 0, and I haven't seen anyone convicted of such either.

Originally posted by colster

Have SF ever condemned or dis-associated themselves from the bombings, murders or punishment beatings committed by the IRA.

The IRA haven't carried out any of these to my knowledge in years they are on a cease-fire

Have the government dis-associated themselves from the illegal war and murders of innocent women and children???

While the cases maybe not compareable there aren't a million miles apart either.

colster

Firstly the Irish government have condemned the war. While it's a disgrace that Shannon is being used.
SF don't have any moral right to condemn since they have supported and been active in the IRA over the troubles.

Secondly, by most observers there are 2-3 member of SF on the IRA army Council. Adams, MacGuinness and Kelly are the usual suspects.

Thirdly, the IRA may be on ceasefire but it doesn't stop the punishment beatings, the spying/targetting and the continual links to other terrorist organisations around the world.

Another point is that SF have no respect for the properly constituted police force in this country.
The support of the release of Garda McCabe's murderers is a case in point. Their veiled support of vigilantism is another.

While I commend their major role in the peace process I despair at the hesitancy to say the war is over, decommission or disband the IRA.
I despair at the fact that they sell triumphalist paraphanalia as a means of supporting themselves.

Villain

Colster,

Firstly:The Government comdemning the war and still allowing them to use shannon is nothing short of Hypocritical.

Secondly: I dont believe Adams or other SF members are on the IRA army Council and I haven't seen any evidence to show such either.

Thirdly: The IRA are on a ceasfire, there may be breakaway units that are engaging in activity but the IRA as a group have not broken that ceasfire.

On you comment about the McCabe prisioners, theres a long running thread where I have talked that to death, have a read.

I commend you for being able to see that SF are playing a major role in the Peace Process, somethings others here simply can't.

In Relation to selling of the t-shirts and cd's I have stated my already in this thread.

Mercury_Tilt

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colster

Originally posted by irish1
Colster,

Firstly:The Government comdemning the war and still allowing them to use shannon is nothing short of Hypocritical.

Secondly: I dont believe Adams or other SF members are on the IRA army Council and I haven't seen any evidence to show such either.

Thirdly: The IRA are on a ceasfire, there may be breakaway units that are engaging in activity but the IRA as a group have not broken that ceasfire.

On you comment about the McCabe prisioners, theres a long running thread where I have talked that to death, have a read.

I commend you for being able to see that SF are playing a major role in the Peace Process, somethings others here simply can't.

In Relation to selling of the t-shirts and cd's I have stated my already in this thread.

Yes the government may be hypocritical but I say again what moral right have SF to condemn the government for backing an illegal war?

I have to disagree with you on Adams or members of SF being on the Army council. McGuinness and Kelly have already admitted to having been members of the IRA.

On the peace process yes SF have played a major role. I commended SF for doing the right thing. But, I think the amount of kudos they seem to be given by others and themselves is laughable.
They did the right thing. We only had to wait 30 years and 1000s of dead for the republican movement to do the right thing.
But having taken that step they still obfuscate and try to exact every last morsel of benefit from the continued existence of their illegal army and weapons.
Why don't they now have the courage to make the final step. To finally give the people of the north, britain and ireland the thing they deserve.

A FUTURE WITHOUT THE THREAT OF VIOLENCE.
DECOMMISSION AND DISBAND THE IRA.

Why won't they do this??

And while the government may be hypocritical about allowing the use of Shannon. I'm free to criticise them and vote for or against them in freedom.
With SF they have always had that implied threat about them. Parties and people have bitten their tongues and thread on egg shells around them. They brought them in from the cold.
Has SF ever thanked or commended them for this?

They had to swallow the releas of murderers. What have SF had to swallow. By calling a ceasfire!! (I was going to say giving up the armed struggle but I don't believed the have.) That may have been difficult for them but hey it was the least they could do.

SF seem to think that everyone else owes them something.
I'd contend that SF owe the people a lot lot more. I mean all the people of the north, britain and ireland when i say this. I don't just mean their own constituency.

It's about time they realised this.

colster

Originally posted by Mercury_Tilt
:rolleyes:

Because there is a market for it... its part of the/their Irish republican heritage, there is money and Kudos in it for them while appealing to their original political base?

Now... why does Ireland keep churning out boy bands when everyone hates them and slags them off? huh?

How can you trivialise this?

There are people who are genuinely offended by this. It's not a funny matter. It's serious to a lot of people.

We have a right to criticise SF for selling this stuff.

In my opinion you're wrong to poke fun at people who are offended by it.

Mercury_Tilt

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Mercury_Tilt

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Villain

Colster I didn't see anywhere in MecuryTilts post where he poked fun at anyone.

Getting back to your last post, you said

Originally posted by colster
Yes the government may be hypocritical but I say again what moral right have SF to condemn the government for backing an illegal war?

The same moral highground that the government have to slate SF while they support an illegal war, come on Colster we could spin this one a hundred ways.

McGuinness and Kelly have admitted to being members of the IRA in the PAST I haven't seen anywhere they admit to being current members, if you have evidence of such I'd like to see it.

In regards to the peace process I agree something should have happened sooner but as I have said in the past

people can stand still and look to the past or they can move on and look to the future, I prefer the later.

The reason they haven't totally decomisioned is because they want parts of the GFA that benefit them carried out also. I mean they decomissioned large numbers of weapons which the Unionists wanted then they wouldn't accept it because they weren't given numbers makes and models:rolleyes:.


As for the SF threat, I think your going a little OTT there, and I think the government would rather see them out in the cold rather than bring them in.

If you dont believe they have given up the armed struggle I think you need to look at the current situation again.

I dont think SF think people owe them anything.

colster

Originally posted by Mercury_Tilt

---

I really don’t see what the problem is here with a SF shop selling Republican merchandise. You can pick up a Wolfe tones CD and many others of their type in HMV et al.

I can see the virtue of another political using any means(and in this case I think a good one) to score points over another one…. Not unlike mike65 pulling Redlesile on his “weak” argument because it suits him yet letting Daveirls even looser one slip by.

But in all honesty it really is just merchandising which brings in money.... and yes it can be offensive to one group of people..as can any thing really.... but its not the best or most rounded political ball to be kicking about.

Look I think there is some validity in that comparison but still we have the right to criticise SF for doing this. Just as we have a right to criticise any other party.
The difference with SF is that they are selling this paraphanlia of a still existing illegal organisation.
The other valid comparison to make is with the brown paper envelope culture in FF.
While the brown paper envelope is legally corrupt the IRA paraphanalia is insensitive, morally corrupt and perhaps illegal too (or should be).

For a party which says it's sensitive to the feelings of all the victims of the struggle it's pretty hypocritical.

BuffyBot

Now... why does Ireland keep churning out boy bands when everyone hates them and slags them off? huh?

Apples and oranges tbh.

They may be bad, but I don't remember them killing anyone and having t-shirts sold about it.

colster

Originally posted by irish1
Colster I didn't see anywhere in MecuryTilts post where he poked fun at anyone.

Getting back to your last post, you said


The same moral highground that the government have to slate SF while they support an illegal war, come on Colster we could spin this one a hundred ways.

McGuinness and Kelly have admitted to being members of the IRA in the PAST I haven't seen anywhere they admit to being current members, if you have evidence of such I'd like to see it.

In regards to the peace process I agree something should have happened sooner but as I have said in the past


The reason they haven't totally decomisioned is because they want parts of the GFA that benefit them carried out also. I mean they decomissioned large numbers of weapons which the Unionists wanted then they wouldn't accept it because they weren't given numbers makes and models:rolleyes:.


As for the SF threat, I think your going a little OTT there, and I think the government would rather see them out in the cold rather than bring them in.

If you dont believe they have given up the armed struggle I think you need to look at the current situation again.

I dont think SF think people owe them anything.

Comparing IRA paraphanalia with boy bands. Hmm... that doesn't seem to be trivialising it does it?

What evidence do you have that they IRA decommissioned large number of weapons?

If the armed struggle is over why do the IRA and their arms still exist. Why are they still spying/targetting etc.

Villain

Originally posted by colster
Comparing IRA paraphanalia with boy bands. Hmm... that doesn't seem to be trivialising it does it?

What evidence do you have that they IRA decommissioned large number of weapons?

If the armed struggle is over why do the IRA and their arms still exist. Why are they still spying/targetting etc.

Hmmm You said poking fun now your saying trivialising
Anyway heres how I know:

On 8 April 2002 the International Commission on Decommissioning issued a report stating that it had witnessed an event in which the IRA leadership has put a varied and substantial quantity of ammunition, arms and explosive material beyond use.

On 21 October 2003 the IICD witnessed a third event in which IRA weapons were put beyond use in accordance with the Governments' Scheme and Regulations. The arms comprised light, medium and heavy ordnance and associated munitions. They included automatic weapons, ammunition, explosives and explosive matériel. The quantity of arms involved was larger than the quantity put beyond use in the previous event.

In accordance with the Governments' Scheme and Regulations, the International Commission on Decommissioning have made an inventory of the arms concerned, which they will provide to the two governments when their task is completed.

On 21 October 2003 the IICD witnessed a third event in which IRA weapons

bugler

Eh, can I just get this right:

Irish1, you;

a) Don't think there is any member of SF who is in the IRA.

b) Don't think that any of the top members in SF are on the Army Council of the IRA.

c) Don't think the IRA has been behind any punishment beatings since they went on ceasefire.

Are you playing dumb as a deliberate tactic, or are you genuinely naive enough to believe those things?

As for why the IRA should still be going, well it keeps Thomas Murphy from having to be known as an out and out criminal, the veneer of respectability that being a paramilitary commander gives is quite useful. No one want to give up a career that has brought them such vast wealth (reputedly over €50 million isn't it?)

colster

Originally posted by Mercury_Tilt


I do hope I have explained myself to your satisfaction and you all do indeed have a right to criticise SF for selling the stuff and do a bit of republican bashing while you are at it. Dont be worrying about the sensitivities of any poor ickle republicans who may have had their kith and kin killed during the conflict by the way.

And how am I doing this? I fail to see how criticising SF selling IRA paraphanalia is doing this.
Sniper at Work badges!!! Hmmm... so that's commemorating replublican dead is it.
Have you ever heard me criticising commemorative services that SF have.

To me the services seem to be a more appropriate way of commemorating the republican dead. Sniper at Work badges don't!!!

They're just a seedy offensive way of raising money worse than the brown envelope culture of FF.

Villain

Originally posted by bugler
a) Don't think there is any member of SF who is in the IRA.

At present that is what I believe

Originally posted by bugler
b) Don't think that any of the top members in SF are on the Army Council of the IRA.

At present that is what I believe

Originally posted by bugler

c) Don't think the IRA has been behind any punishment beatings since they went on ceasefire.

I believe members of the IRA have carried out such attacks but I dont believe the organisation is directly organising these

Originally posted by bugler

Are you playing dumb as a deliberate tactic, or are you genuinely naive enough to believe those things?

As for why the IRA should still be going, well it keeps Thomas Murphy from having to be known as an out and out criminal, the veneer of respectability that being a paramilitary commander gives is quite useful. No one want to give up a career that has brought them such vast wealth (reputedly over €50 million isn't it?)

I've just stated what I believe and answered all your questions, which is not something that all SF bashers here do. Still waiting for ReefBreak to retract his statement in the McCabe thread.

colster

Originally posted by irish1
Hmmm You said poking fun now your saying trivialising
Anyway heres how I know:

It's funny how SF and their followers pick and choose the independent commission to support and not support isn't it.

When one commission suits them they use it and when another one states that the IRA are responsible for abduction of Bobby Tohill they reject it.

If you can accept the findings of one Independent COmmission why can't you accept the findings of the other?

Villain

Originally posted by colster
It's funny how SF and their followers pick and choose the independent commission to support and not support isn't it.

When one commission suits them they use it and when another one states that the IRA are responsible for abduction of Bobby Tohill they reject it.

If you can accept the findings of one Independent COmmission why can't you accept the findings of the other?

Have a look at the makeup of the two boards!

I provided facts instead of accepting them you go back to SF bashing, I wish people would come up with something new to bash them for.

I find it really funny that people are so fond of bashing SF while the Government of the day who are actually running this country have feck all said against them, I mean I opened a new thread this morning which shows that legislation that the current government passed has a MAJOR LOOP HOLE which could result in people caught speeding getting off scot free.

But instead of discussing that or other storys about the government including the 1 in the INDO about them giving false information regarding waiting lists, people just come here and bash SF over some t-shirts and cds there selling.

I think people need to think a bit more.

Having said that looks like the PD's stunt didn't work too well in the real world, haven't found anything on it in the sunday papers.

Originally posted by gandalf

I saw someone mention the heroes of 1916 and try and compare them with the current IRA.

That was Mitchell Mclaughlin.
He said FF td's glorified their grandfathers roles back in the 20's so why couldn't SF do the same now or words to that effect.
The difference is though:
1. This is 2004 and
2. Most of the relatives of the victims of IRA Bombings and killings are very much alive,fathers brothers,mothers, sisters cousins and aunts whereas the near relatives and friends of those that died nearly a 100 years ago are long gone..
The recent IRA victims are in the here and now and deserve some respect.
I can't understand why SF, if they are so insistent on divorcing them selves from actual connections with the IRA campaign why they want to tacitly support/glorify it by selling this stuff openly in their shop.

They could have easily arranged for a shop to be selling it that was independent of SF.
It could be run by people who happen to be SF members but it needn't be the SF shop.
But instead they have probably inadvertently walked themselves into this situation.
It runs counter to their recent way of doing things ie , the way they approach the nature of their relationship with the IRA.
Perhaps they overlooked this aspect?

Rock Climber

Originally posted by Redleslie2
It's always funny when people who support the Iraq war complain about SF's association with naughty violence, especially after US troops just controversially liberated a village wedding or whatever.

That works both ways you know, as the IRA war was also illegal.
Talk about the pot calling the kettle black ass ie some have no problem justifying the IRA "war" even though it was always illegal yet they complain about the war in Iraq
I could never fathom that as it is blatant hypocrisy.

Mercury_Tilt

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bugler

Well what you believe is quite untrue, irish1.

As for IRA members carrying out punishment attacks but not being sanctioned by the organisation..sounds a bit like the US military's explanation for Abu Ghraib. Individuals acting alone with no direction from their superiors. Also sounds like the Catholic Churches explanation for its child abuse scandals. In all cases of course it's complete rubbish. No organisation can sit back and watch while its members, who only have such power and are in such a position due to their links with the organisation, carry out acts which they then claim they have no responsibility for.

The problem with the IRA as far as defining it is that whenever something nasty happens it wasn't involved. Whenever something good happens (like decommissioning) it was involved. A bit like every other political organisation really.

The IRA and Sinn Fein really needs to give up the ghost. Considering the climate now attached to "terrorism" the IRA can never go back to what it was. Dealing with it will increasingly become an anti-crime measure, as its members will not easily give up the power and privilege enjoyed in the previous state of conflict. It's time SF dropped the smirking implication that they have nothing to do with the IRA. Anyone with any savvy knows otherwise. SF need to get on with being a political party, let the PDs find something to attack in their political policies rather than over some tacky, tasteless merchandise.

Villain

Originally posted by bugler
Well what you believe is quite untrue, irish1.

Well their my beliefs so doesn't relly matter if you think they are untrue.

Oh an comparing the IRA organisation to ones you did is a little silly, the IRA is a very complicated organisation.

As I have said this has all being said before, I dont support the IRA but I do believe they are committed to peaceful means.

I notice nobody reposnded to:

I find it really funny that people are so fond of bashing SF while the Government of the day who are actually running this country have feck all said against them, I mean I opened a new thread this morning which shows that legislation that the current government passed has a MAJOR LOOP HOLE which could result in people caught speeding getting off scot free.

But instead of discussing that or other storys about the government including the 1 in the INDO about them giving false information regarding waiting lists, people just come here and bash SF over some t-shirts and cds there selling.

I think people need to think a bit more.

Having said that looks like the PD's stunt didn't work too well in the real world, haven't found anything on it in the sunday papers.

bugler

As I have said this has all being said before, I dont support the IRA but I do believe they are committed to peaceful means.

So why do you think it is reluctant to give up its weapons? And why does it tolerate it's members acting in non-peaceful means, such as engaging in kidnapping and beatings?

The fact that you have "beliefs" about IRA/SF membership is a little disconcerting. Why do you believe it, as opposed to think it? I know for a fact you're mistaken. Yet as long as you believe it, that doesn't matter.

Do you know the IRA commander is one of the wealthiest underworld figures in the UK and Ireland? Do you know this wealth is gained from smuggling and racketeering? Or do your "beliefs" protect you from this knowledge also?

Your point about people not focusing on other issues is valid, but only to a point. So people aren't paying attention to one gang of scam-artists but are to another. That doesn't absolve SF of its sins. Thing is, people tend to get more upset about more emotive issues such as what SF tends to be involved in, rather than whatever shambles/corruption the government is involved in.

Why focus on Iraq at all? Far more people are dying in Sudan, in a far more gruesome manner. Unfortunately, news coverage and so discourse does not follow what is more worthy.

Rock Climber

Originally posted by irish1


I notice nobody reposnded to:
I find it really funny that people are so fond of bashing SF while the Government of the day who are actually running this country have feck all said against them, I mean I opened a new thread this morning which shows that legislation that the current government passed has a MAJOR LOOP HOLE which could result in people caught speeding getting off scot free.

But instead of discussing that or other storys about the government including the 1 in the INDO about them giving false information regarding waiting lists, people just come here and bash SF over some t-shirts and cds there selling.

Are you seriously suggesting that the government don't get serious critism here on this forum...
You must have a lot of the threads here on ignore... or you are reading a different forum to everyone else.

As regards SF, they are an open political party freely looking for votes like the rest of the parties.
They are not a private society and therefore are subject to the same level of scrutiny as anyone else.
If they can't put up with the heat in the kitchen, they should move outside, and I doubt you would want them to do that.
So I respectfully suggest, that you either desist from moaning about others questioning the party you support or desist from you yourself critisising the other parties including the government.

If I play ball and am in the league, I can't really complain about the opposing teams wanting to score goals against me, it's their job, it's called democracy.
Sinn Féin are free to counter any argument and the public in their wisdom make their judgement.
That applies to all parties, there should be no special treatment.

Villain

Bugler, my beliefs did not say I didn't believe that the IRA have been involved in illegal activity to raise money, I have in the past that I dont believe SF members are involved in this and I still believe that.

I was pointing out the ratio of SF bashing that gos on here compared to the Government of the day.

I never said they dont get bashed, god knows I do it often enough, I was pointing out that I believe people are concentarting too much on SF. I mean I opened a thread about Gilmartin in the Mahon tribunal and I'd say I had nearly 60% of the posts in that thread and it was very quite despite being the main news of time.

Rock Climber, I'm not moaning I asked for people to come up with new topics to bash SF with because all we'r getting is the same things over and over.

I hope you can see what I'm trying to say

Rock Climber

Irish1,
You said:

I find it really funny that people are so fond of bashing SF while the Government of the day who are actually running this country have feck all said against them,

Theres no special treatment, it's untrue to say feck all is said against the government here.
On the front page of the forum, theres two threads dealing with the IRA, both from a different angle.
One in relation to the McCabe killers.
SF are being critisised there for supporting their release, everybody made their points...thats open unrestricted civilised debate.
The other is the SF shop thing, which is another current legitimate issue for debate.
Theres no basis here that I can see that SF are being singled out worse than any others for bashing.
They are being scrutinised for what they do and their policies in the same way as any other party.
It's simply discussion which is what this forum is about.

Villain

Rock Climber

I know what the forum is about, but have a look at most of the thread titles and then have a look at the thread after a page or 2 most threads turn into general SF bashing and dont deal with thread topic. I think if you look back over the last month or so I have talked the isssues been raised here again to death.