[article] They Have'nt Gone Away You Know!

Rock Climber

Originally posted by irish1
Rock Climber

I know what the forum is about, but have a look at most of the thread titles and then have a look at the thread after a page or 2 most threads turn into general SF bashing and dont deal with thread topic.

But, I doubt that the posters in the thread you talk of, are deliberately bring SF into it in most cases, it's usually in response to some comment or other mentioning them.
that type of off topicness is a fact of life, it happens in all topics and is usually either stopped if it is bizarely off topic or let run a bit if not.

I would suggest that you are being a little over sensitive,I read this forum too and don't notice this happening to SF , more so that it does to any other party or subject for that matter.
You are an SF supporter, you should relax, you are bound to see critism of SF in a different light to non SF supporters.

It's a bit like if you drive a volvo, you will see more volvo's on the road than fiat drivers will.
It doesn't mean that there are more volvos on the road than other cars, it's just that because you drive a volvo and it's your car, you are subconsciously trained to notice more of them

you should, with respect lighten up and continue to debate

Villain

Originally posted by Rock Climber
you should, with respect lighten up and continue to debate

I'm quite good humoured here normally just coming to an end of a few days of 8-8 shifts so probably lack of sleep is affecting me.

I love discussing SF, I'm just a little fed up of having to discuss the same points over and over again.

But I'm sure with a proper nights sleep and a few pints of Smitwicks I'l be in better form

TheMuckyArab

Can't member who wrote what makes eniskillin etc.. self-defence BUT...


Eniskillen was bad I agree, but the point is how is that any better than bloody sunday, dresden, bagdhad etc.? What makes a terrorist, a terrorist is by dictionary terms a militant group which delibratly targets civilians, which the IRA has`nt ON THE MAJORITY done, i`m not in support of their methods, cause killing people bad on all sides, the point is what makes them beter than the originators of Fianna Fail who might I add NEVER decommisioned.

Also none of those t-shirts was about those bomings, one I member was "sniper at work" which was directed at the British Army.

And let's look at the big picture, cease fire still on, if they break it then they are without doubt murerous thugs, but to say that if one guy does criminality the whole group is gangsters is a bit ripe,s eeing how Fianna Fail full of gangsters, as is the Garda Siochana(a little town in Donegal comes to mind) but are they all drug dealin scum bags?


Too right, they have`nt gone away, cause we have so many Blackrock adn D4 heads going with the bandwaggin and assuming Paislyite sayings such as SF/IRA is Ian Paisley not as much a terrorist for being one of the biggest inciters of sectarian violence.

Also - DOES anyone else notice that that Mary Lou one is always lookin a bit dirty?
what can I say i`m shallow when it comes to politics.

Rock Climber

Originally posted by TheMuckyArab

Eniskillen was bad I agree, but the point is how is that any better than bloody sunday, dresden, bagdhad etc.? What makes a terrorist, a terrorist is by dictionary terms a militant group which delibratly targets civilians, which the IRA has`nt ON THE MAJORITY done,.

The IRA mudered maimed and killed people right left and centre with no mandate whatsoever from the people in whose name they were supposed to be doing it.
They were totally unaccountable for their deeds unless caught and tried.
Even when they were caught and tried, they still sent out others to do the same again
Thats the difference and thats why it is was and alweays will be wrong.

TheMuckyArab

Yes the british always try their criminals in the military, don`t be a fol.

What about the collusion between the british government and the LVF/UVF?

And as I said , and KEEP saying, whats the diffrnece they are`nt fighting ANYMORE, and as they have not decommisioned they are basically the same as the lads who formed Fianna Fail and good old Chairman of the Labour Party Mr. "i`m a lousy commie" DeRossa.

Your argument also amkes no sense, the British Army and Loyalists did`nt send people to continue they're killing?

Just remember the IRA was made by the British after Bloody Sunday, before John Hume was winning it on his own, after that the gloves were off.

People like you are the D4 type's which I find truly laughable, the ones who salute ten years to the end of South African apartheid, and Tabo "the baby bomber" Imbeki, but forgot not until 1975 were Catholics properly allowed one man one vote, the ANC in South Africa are still terrorizing people, and doing exactly what Robert Mugabe did in Zimbabwe accept in South Africa they steal Indian Farms not white.

Wake up and smell your Burberry, jsut because it's the Cono Curise-O'Brien thing to do, absolutly degrading Sinn Fein as well as these Revisionists on all forms of Republicanism, does'nt mean its right.


Well, stinky, stink on

TheMuckyArab

I tells ya I saw another Mary Lou poster, and a bit of Vo5 would go along way.

Rock Climber

Originally posted by TheMuckyArab

And as I said , and KEEP saying, whats the diffrnece they are`nt fighting ANYMORE, and as they have not decommisioned they are basically the same as the lads who formed Fianna Fail and good old Chairman of the Labour Party Mr. "i`m a lousy commie" DeRossa.

Pots and kettles again SF have an office in Cuba do they not Are they communists too then by extension? I don't think so.
You seem to be a fan of the straw man

bonkey

Originally posted by TheMuckyArab
And as I said , and KEEP saying,

Coming from someone with a postcount of 4, this is a bit much.

Well, stinky, stink on

Insulting other posters, even if its meant lightheartedly is not acceptable here. Please read our forum rules before continuing.

jc

TheMuckyArab

meant it as more of sign off rather than an insult but I get ya.

Sorry so because I don't post much means I should respect bad statements?Anyway dude I don't means nothin by it

Yeah I don`t like SF's politics at all, I think they are filthy commies too ;-), that had absolutly nothing to do with my argument, but seeing how I think that Labour,the greens and SF are all equally too left for their own good does`nt have anything to do with what i`m tryin to say, the point is that have the exact same right as all other parties formed by murderers, such as Fianna Fail, Fine Gael and Labour(Connoly?, bit thin I admit), aslong as they keep their guns to themselves, and as the IMC report has been rubbished I just say we should give them the benefit of the doubt, aswell as their very good celtic supporter t-shirts!

Rock Climber

Originally posted by TheMuckyArab
and as the IMC report has been rubbished I jsut say we should give them the benefit of the doubt, aswell as their very good celtic supporter t-shirts!

Only Sinn Féin have rubbished it...
Any other parties representing over 90% of the island rubbish it?
Do tell.

TheMuckyArab

Well i`m learning this time I bring evidence of just one of the stoopafying(?) mistakes of the IMC

forgive me i`m not sure how to link but i'll give it a whack

=http://www.westwindnet.com/ireland/debatcen/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=ndebcen&Number=250541&page=3&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=0&fpart=

Another board I frequent, with links and arugment to Daily Telegaph and more

This points out the quite humerous mistake of declaring the IRA murdered a man that reportedly died in a fire, related to a cigarette , absolutly not linked to IRA whatsoever.

AmenToThat

Originally posted by Rock Climber
The IRA mudered maimed and killed people right left and centre with no mandate whatsoever from the people in whose name they were supposed to be doing it.
They were totally unaccountable for their deeds unless caught and tried.
Even when they were caught and tried, they still sent out others to do the same again
Thats the difference and thats why it is was and alweays will be wrong.

No mandate?
The IRA have always had very strong support within working class communities in the six counties from where their volunteers were mainly drawn and the shinners are now the biggest nationalist party in the six counties.

As far as I can see the targeting of occupying troops and their supporting infastructer are perfectly legimate in time of war and in this the IRA acted no differently than any other army.
Yes horrific crimes were commited by the IRA during "the troubles" but no worse than those commited by the Brittish forces who continually targeted civilians with their "shoot to kill policy" as well as widespread collusion with loyalist paramilitaries.

There is no such thing as an honourable war, innocents die, that is the nature of war and the war in the six counties is no different and infact far far less bloody than what has taken place in Iraq in the last year where tens of thousands have died most of whom are civilians.

Rock Climber

Correct no mandate.
I'd safely say 90% of the electorate of NI did not support the IRA during the troubles and up to 95% or higher of the island as a whole.
That equates to no mandate.

Mercury_Tilt

This post has been deleted.

TheMuckyArab

Rock Climber

I would say they did`nt have a mandate of 90 percent of the people

Well mabye you should look into it, that even though they were`nt sitting in election it was always roughly 50/50 in the westminister elections, and that was with the Sinn Fein policy of not taking aprt.


And according to the British government(who you would seem to beleive above all)
at one point in 76 they said 1/3 nationalist youths(16-25) was a memebr of the IRA or other Republican group.


Prove me wrong, and as smeone who is form Northern ireland and has long supported SDLP(as there aint no greedy capitalist alternative) to say they were not supported is a bit of a over statement, most people who support the SDLP just don't want the fighting and murder, but when loyalists are comming for you homes and the British are interning yo, your father and your brother you need a backup. Funny sdtory look at Alex Maskey's bio he was`nt even interested in politics till he was intered

Rock Climber

Originally posted by Mercury_Tilt
Then I'd say you would be wrong unless you can prove those fairy tale figures. For fairy tale figures they are.....

Fairy tale eh?
Assuming that we are using the SF vote as a yardstick at the height of the troubles for support for the IRA campaign...

1987 election result:
Ulster unionist=276,230
sdlp =154,067
dup =85,642
alliance =72671
popular unionist=18420
real unionist 14467
protestant unionist 2147

Total non IRA vote 1987 = 623644

Sinn Féin vote = 83389

By my rough maths there 89% of NI in 1987 voted against the IRA campaign.
source
Thats a fact not a fairy tale.
But trying to represent an 11% vote as a mandate for bombing shooting and other violence would be a fairy tale allright.
I'd reckon it would be very generous of me to attribute 5% of the 1987 vote in the 26 counties to SF,I'll let ye do that,was it more than 2 or 3 % in the Dáil election of that year at the height of the troubles.

So theres where I'm coming from , the people voted and way over 90% didn't give a mandate to the IRA for the bombing and shooting.
Suggesting that they had one is incredible.

AmenToThat

Originally posted by Rock Climber
Fairy tale eh?
Assuming that we are using the SF vote as a yardstick at the height of the troubles for support for the IRA campaign...

1987 election result:
Ulster unionist=276,230
sdlp =154,067
dup =85,642
alliance =72671
popular unionist=18420
real unionist 14467
protestant unionist 2147

Total non IRA vote 1987 = 623644

Sinn Féin vote = 83389

By my rough maths there 89% of NI in 1987 voted against the IRA campaign.
source

They had widespread support within their communities from where the volunteers were mainly drawn which gives them the only mandate they needed and is why they were able to continue the struggle for 30 years and why SF are now the biggest nationalist party within the six counties depsite/because of (depending on your view point) there percieved invovment with the IRA

TheMuckyArab

So now you change the story, earlier it was how 90 percent of the Irish people, then it was Northern Irish, and you were talking about nationalists, now you include Unionists, how could they have support from their enemy?

As you point out it close enough with the SDLP, and you should check how the SDLP had three times the money as Sinn Fein until 1991 when UK and Ireland both lifted Sinn Fein's outside funding restrictions, hense this Red mess we have growing on our Ireland

Rock Climber

I know there was support in some selected areas for the IRA, but that was never more than a drop in the ocean when you totted up everybody.
I find it amusing that for some people here unionists have to be excluded when you tot up whether the people of the island gave the IRA a mandate or not.

We are all on the one island, and everyone over 18 is eligible to vote.
Some people here are LoL'ing at that notion as if the votes of some people for bombing and shooting are worth more say than the vast majority who don't vote for it.
Hello... Democracy, it was hard enough to get it, so respecting it might be a good idea.

In that 1987 election at the height of the IRA campaign, even two thirds roughly of nationalists voted for the sdlp, those that voted Republican were in a tiny minority.

Reason? people, the vast majority of them abhorred what the IRA were doing.
They acted for a small minority, they had no mandate on this island-period!

TheMuckyArab

I like how your changing your argument becomes my not accepting unionists.

I jsut unlike some people on this forum agree in the Unionist's right to be SImply British and not be "lumped in" with the Shinners.

Unionists don't need to back Sinn Fein they have Paisley and the Orange Man to let their hatred out.

This question YOU raised was about nationalist support for Sinn Fein.

LOL your my equal in stubborness i`m missing Highlander for this!


Whatever happened Lampert?

Originally posted by AmenToThat
They had widespread support within their communities from where the volunteers were mainly drawn which gives them the only mandate they needed and is why they were able to continue the struggle for 30 years and why SF are now the biggest nationalist party within the six counties depsite/because of (depending on your view point) there percieved invovment with the IRA

I understand that.
But you must realise too that the Sinn Féin vote rocketed after the good Friday agreement and the sucessfull ceasefires.
When the IRA guns grew quiet they started to mop up a lot of the vote that used go to the SDLP.
That tells a story doesn't it?
The respect and vote for SF grew once they endorsed the path to peace now being followed, but it was in the doldrums for most of the troubles wasn't it?
Ergo there was a majority of nationalists that didn't support the campaign.

Rock Climber

Originally posted by TheMuckyArab
I like how your changing your argument becomes my not accepting unionists.

I jsut unlike some people on this forum agree in the Unionist's right to be SImply British and not be "lumped in" with the Shinners.

Unionists don't need to back Sinn Fein they have Paisley and the Orange Man to let their hatred out.

This question YOU raised was about nationalist support for Sinn Fein.

LOL your my equal in stubborness i`m missing Highlander for this!


Whatever happened Lampert?

You must be reading some other poster and some other thread because I said they had no mandate from the people of the island, I didn't exclude anyone.
Maybe you wish to send the unionists packing?
Even SF regard them as Irish..
Let me remind you of what I said as you clearly didn't read it...

Originally posted by Rock Climber
Correct no mandate.
I'd safely say 90% of the electorate of NI did not support the IRA during the troubles and up to 95% or higher of the island as a whole.
That equates to no mandate.

AmenToThat

Originally posted by Earthman
I understand that.
But you must realise too that the Sinn Féin vote rocketed after the good Friday agreement and the sucessfull ceasefires.
When the IRA guns grew quiet they started to mop up a lot of the vote that used go to the SDLP.
That tells a story doesn't it?
The respect and vote for SF grew once they endorsed the path to peace now being followed, but it was in the doldrums for most of the troubles wasn't it?
Ergo there was a majority of nationalists that didn't support the campaign.

But a majority of nationalists within the areas worst effected by "the troubles" did!
Most of the violence and indeed the second class treatment directed at catholics when it came to housing, jobs, access to services ect. at the start of the troubles were aimed at working class areas which is from where the IRA drew its support and indeed from where they were and still are supported by a large section of the community.
That was their mandate.

It took ten years for Adams and others within SF to persuade the Provos to enter a ceasefire so why would you assume that it would be any different to persuade republicans to vote for elections to a British Parliament?
The fact is that many republicans boycotted "British elections" and it is only through repeated calls by Adams and McGuinness that the ballot box approach would work that the republican vote "has come out" in recent years.

Redleslie2

You don't need a mandate from anybody when God commands you (Good) to battle Evil. When your side kills/tortures/robs innocent people who happen to be in the way, and lies to you to justify the aggression, it's worth it. Good must triumph regardless of human cost. Anyone who objects is a hippy Satan appeaser.

Slaughter and torture of brown skinned people Good, SF Tshirts Evil.

AmenToThat

Originally posted by Redleslie2
You don't need a mandate from anybody when god commands you (Good) to battle Evil. When your side kills/tortures/robs innocent people who happen to be in the way, and lies to you to justify the aggression, it's worth it. Anyone who objects is a hippy Satan appeaser.

Thanks for that contribution.......................

Originally posted by AmenToThat
But a majority of nationalists within the areas worst effected by "the troubles" did!
Most of the violence and indeed the second class treatment directed at catholics when it came to housing, jobs, access to services ect. at the start of the troubles were aimed at working class areas which is from where the IRA drew its support and indeed from where they were and still are supported by a large section of the community.
That was their mandate.

That is not a mandate.
A mandate is where your electorate democratically direct you to do something.
The IRA never had that.

Hairy Homer

Well of course the ultimate responsibility lies with the British Government.

Mighty_Mouse

Does Sinn Fein divorce the IRA?
IRA - Omagh!!!!
And of coarse FF/1916/IRA Michael Collins etc etc is different because the victims are dead (at the time?) and its a different world we live in!!

swiss

I find it interesting that this report should coincide with the Independent monitoring commission's report on the activities of paramilitary organisations such as the IRA and the LVF. Since loyalist parties with links to terrorist organisations are not vying for my vote I won't deal with them here. However according to this report the Provisional IRA:

PIRA remains a relatively sophisticated and well controlled organisation. It maintains itself in a state of readiness, and possesses the range of necessary skills, whereby it could revert to much more widespread violence were the decision taken that it should do so. In addition to its involvement in other criminal activities, PIRA is engaged in the use of serious violence which we believe is under the control of its most senior leadership, whose members must therefore bear responsibility for it.

Sinn Féin have (naturally IMO) rubbished this report. I remember several weeks ago I asserted that the IRA were heavily involved in criminality, but couldn't find the necessary web sources to back up this assertion. This would seem to be such a source. I do however wonder whether it is enough to convince republicans of what I believe is the truth about IRA activities. In some respects I can compare loyalty to a political party (and this doesn't just mean SF) to religious belief. If one has faith, no explanation is necessary. If one does not, no explanation will suffice.

irish1 and other SF advocates consistently say that they are sick of rebutting the same points over and over again. I would agree to the extent that the same arguments have arisen time and again. However, I think my views on this matter can be summed up in an old movie quote:

Juror #3: I don't care if I'm alone or not! It's my right.
Juror #8: It's your right.
Juror #3: Well, what do you want from me?!
Juror #8: We want your arguments.
Juror #3: I gave ya my arguments!
Juror #8: We're not convinced! We want to hear them again. We have as much time as it takes.

Kudos to anyone who can name the film.

Edit: No googling for the answer. Cheaters will be banned .

DeVore

12 Angry Men?

DeV.