Should we legalise abortion?

arcadegame2004

We voted 50.1% to 49.9% against the Government's proposals to ban the use of the risk of suicide as a grounds for abortions in Ireland. Most of the media seemed to have viewed it as a sign that people now wanted the Government to legislate for the X-Case Judgement of 1992 that allowed abortions if there was a risk to the life of the mother where that risk included the risk of suicide.

What should happen? A kind of legal limbo presently exists which I think is an unhealthy precedent for future Government compliance with court-judgements.

I personally voted in favour of the Government's proposals way back then. I am not at all religious - in fact I haven't attended Mass in about 6 months so that wasn't my reason. I did it because I am adopted and felt that had abortion been allowed here I might not be here today.

Since the referendum 2 years ago however my views have changed a little. I relaise that forcing a raped girl/woman to unwillingly carry a child to term is cruel. At the same time I don't want a free for all where abortions can happen for purely social reasons. If the female doesn't want the child but is not a risk of suicide nor has she herlife physically-endangered from going through with the pregnancy, then I feel that abortion should not be allowed in that case. The child then, should be given up for adoption. After all, it isn't the baby's fault that it was created, nor the economic/social situation of the parent.

What do you all think?

Villain

Man what is it with you and Polls???:dunno:

This is a very hard issue to decide on, but I have believe women should have the right to an abortion in the very early stages after recieving some councilling.

They go to Liverpool and other places anyway so it's not as if Irish women aren't having abortions there just having them elsewhere away from the suport structures of their community.

halkar

Originally posted by irish1
Man what is it with you and Polls???:dunno:
...

This is what I thought too.
yeah arcadegame2004, what is it with you and Polls? Are you working for government?
As for abortion? Just as Irish1 said. They do it anyway.

MrPudding

Irelands laws regarding abortion differ from the rest of europe. I demand that we immediatly legalise abortion in Ireland to bring our law into line with those in the rest of europe.

MrP

gandalf

Getting pretty sick of you starting all these polls arcade !!!

As for abortion imho women should have a choice in what happens with their bodies and their lives. If they are religious then they won't have one. Legalise abortion up to 15 weeks.

Gandalf.

arcadegame2004

Mr.Pudding nowhere in any of my posts did I make racist remarks. At all times I provided statistical and other evidence to back up my claims as well.

On my use of polls, I use them to find out the way the wind is blowing in terms of Irish public-opinion. I am interested in this as this naturally influences the future actions of Governments and thererby will affect me.l

joePC

Abortion is murder

Please dont question my views, thats what it is organised murder of babys............It sickins me people can do this to their own child........

gandalf

Couple of things here. I do not expect Arcadegame and MR.Pudding to start their little war again or I will ban you both.

JoePC there is no point posting on the politics board when you state "Please dont question my views". The very reason for this board is for people to question your views and for you to give them an understanding of them. If you are incapable of doing this then do not bother posting.

Arcadegame I assume you are not creating these polls on behalf of any candidates or parties. We have had party pundits/members on here in the past trying to use boards as a sounding board without clearly identifying themselves. Just want to make sure this is not the case again?

Gandalf.

Villain

Originally posted by joePC
Abortion is murder

Please dont question my views, thats what it is organised murder of babys............It sickins me people can do this to their own child........

By what constitution????

I can understand your opinon, but a discussion froum is not the place to be making sweeping remarks like above.

I'm a man so I wouldn't know what it is like to be in the position where women feel they need to have an abortion.

I would love to see women have the children and give them up for adoption but I have no right to Judge any woman on her actions when it comes down to HER BODY.

Now as I have said huge numbers of Irish women travel to the UK to have this procedure done so I dont see anything wrong with legalising it here.

flogen

JoePC, I can appreciate if you think its wrong, but you have no right (or should have no right) to dictate the lives of others.

I am pro-choice, that doesnt mean I'd definitly go for an abortion were my partner to become pregnant, it all depends on circumstance tbh, although I'd avoid it as best I could. However, I have no right to tell anyone else what to do in such a huge decision. The fact is, if they chose to abort or not, the effect on their lives will be widespread, and they must make the decision that is best for them, and I should have no part in that.
I dont appreciate this anti-abortion rhetoric that people are heartless murderers, do you really think that someone has an abortion on a whim? It isnt the kind of thing you just go and do, from what I know of it, its an extremely traumatic event.

For you to make such a sweeping statement, give no reason other than call pro-choicers murderers and refuse to discuss it says to me that you're just flaming.

Flogen

PHB

SO I guess JoeCP thinks that kids are born the second conception occurs.

Medically thats just wrong but I suppose there is an argument to be made for a spiritual/religous side.

Do you agree with the pill?
Thats the same thing as a one day abortion?


My personal view is that I don't personally agree with abortion, however I don't think I have any right to say that to a girl who is 17 and doesn't want to have a kid.
Its a personal choice and you have to respect everyone's choice.


Why is it that in this case we take into account a religious or spiritual reasons for passing laws?
That is really the only argument againist abortions(within a certain time period before brain functions begin)
Its your decesion to make for yourself, not for anyone else

Rock Climber

Originally posted by irish1
Now as I have said huge numbers of Irish women travel to the UK to have this procedure done so I dont see anything wrong with legalising it here.

I do to be honest... But my position on it is this, if a majority of people want it let them have it available.
I'll still have a clear conscience taking a dim view of it and in the knowledge that I will vote no.

Theres no need for high horses here, people will always do what they see right for themselves and abortion seems to fall into that category world wide where ( except where it is banned ) theres an acceptable norm in law for gestation prior to which the foetus can be killed.
I'll give you an example of where it's very wrong.
I have a friend who is 19 and going out on the sly with a married woman who is in her early 40's.
She is just back from the UK having had her second abortion.
My friend was the father of both and her husband knows nothing and they are still at it like rabbits and no protection.
She is quite prepared top go back for another abortion if necessary and yer man who works on the buildings is quite prepared to pay for it again, for the continued thrill of going bareback.


By the way on a side note,I do think this thread would be better off in humanities where this topic is often discussed.The only thing political about it is that it needs a referendum to have it legalised.
Moving it mods would also mean one less of arcadegames polls straining my eyes when I open the forums front list hint hint- please

Villain

Rock Climber

I can understand your position completely but I just think theres not much point in having it illegal here if anyone that wants one can jump on a plane or boat in the morning pregant and return that evening after having an abortion.

It's just causing more problems in my mind, having said that women will still probably go to the uk even if it is legal here to keep their action confidental.

arcadegame2004

Gandalf I guarantee you I am NOT a member of any political party and I do not represent any candidate ok.

sceptre

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
We voted 50.1% to 49.9% against the Government's proposals to ban the use of the risk of suicide as a grounds for abortions in Ireland. Most of the media seemed to have viewed it as a sign that people now wanted the Government to legislate for the X-Case Judgement of 1992 that allowed abortions if there was a risk to the life of the mother where that risk included the risk of suicide.

Ah, well they did and they didn't. The rational media tended to believe that it was the coming together of two completely opposing groups, both voting "no" that killed the proposed amendment. There was one group who didn't want any abrogation of the slim rights to abortion made as a result of the judgement in AG v X and obviously they wanted the thing legislated for. Then you had another group on the other side who wanted a simple "no abortions in Ireland"-style referendum to close off the loophole created as a result of bad wording of the 1983 amendment. It's not as though the two opposing sides ever had a meeting but essentially the more extreme pro-choicers and pro-lifers came together to kill off the amendment. Then you had me who, despite the serious nature of the proposed amendment (which in fairness, was worded terribly), spent three months laughing at the fact that had we never had a referendum in 1983 (which the government of the day didn't want), none of this would ever have been necessary.

I don't believe any government is ever going to have the balls to legislate for X. Certainly not FF, but then they don't really want to anyway. Unlike the first divorce granted in Ireland, which had as its basis the constitutional amendment rather than the resultant legislation (which hadn't been passed yet by the lazy feckers), no-one's going to bother to take a case to the High court or Supreme court to conform their right to abortion under the limited circumstances that do exist while they have the confirmed constitutional right to get on a flight to Manchester. So we're stuck in no-man's land for the long long forseeable future. But for the stupidity that began with paranoia over the McGee case being parallel to Connecticut v Griswold and fear over an Irish Roe v Wade (which in any case couldn't have happened here as the decision came down to the US 4th amendment, our equivalent is rather different), continuing with rampant idiocy from governments in the 1990s we wouldn't be in this legal hole. Never mind, we've still got the Irish solution to the Irish problem: a big boat and a "No abortions in Ireland" sign. Yay us.

Simi

I believe abortion should be legal in the early stages of pregnancy. The recent scandal in england over the 14 year old girl who was allowed to have an abortion without her mothers consent wasn't justified. The girl in guestion was given all the facts by a counsellor and was allowed to make her own decision, just as it should be. Her mothers view and everyone elses view (except the father) do not matter. It should be her choice. Some may argue abortion is murder, but is it right to force a 14 year old girl to have a child she doesn't want? Religious belief should not be taken into account when debating the issue of abortion. It is unfair to base laws on religious beliefs as it discriminates against those with different religious beliefs or no religious beliefs.

arcadegame2004

In relation to what JoeCP said I personally don't regard it as murder if the abortion takes place prior to the development of the brain. After all, when a human being is brain-dead, they ae effectively "dead", with only a life-support machine keeping them "physically alive". But they will never again be able to have any conscious thought, so to all intents and purposes they are dead.

On the contraceptive-pill then, I do not agree with those, seemingly including Dana and Justin Barrett, that the contraceptive pull is a form of abortion. They should realise that without the contraceptive pill and other forms of contraception, more abortions will actually result.

arcadegame2004

"It is unfair to base laws on religious beliefs as it discriminates against those with different religious beliefs or no religious beliefs."

I agree totally which is why gay marriage should be legalised forthwith. As a gay man I resent this example of politics interfering in matters pertaining to consenting-adults.

flogen

Firstly, the pill cannot be a form of abortion as it stops the egg and sperm fuzing, so no foetus, even a very very new one, is formed.

Secondly, I do not know when I would say to draw the line on abortion time, perhaps when it is generally accepted that the foetus can survive outside of the womb.

As for religion, I dont think it should be a factor in law making, even if we are a traditionally religious country. Religious belief can fog the mind, i think law should be made on necessity and moral views. Gay marriage is for another topic, but I totally agree that it should be legalised, and until we do we cannot claim to be a country that believes in equality.

Flogen

isolde

I personally see abortion as a personal choice, one which we should have the right to exercise in Ireland, should we wish to do so. The reality is that thousands of Irish women.. our sisters, friends, daughters, girlfriends.. travel to Britain and mainland Europe each year, in order to have their pregnancies terminated. This is, as sceptre rightly said, an Irish solution to an Irish problem. I'd love to see the day where we can choose to have a termination in Ireland. I don't think this would be abused.. as already said, women will get pregnant anyway, that's life.. contraception is not always foolproof unfortunately. I don't condone the actions of people such as the woman in RockClimber's post.. but at the same time we must look at the wider picture.. girls get pregnant despite having used contraception.. girls get pregnant and decide not to keep the baby because they're not in a loving relationship.. or despite this fact.. there are so many different scenarios and individual situations to consider.. and we cannot possibly condemn all of these outright because we just don't know.

According to the IFPA, over 105,000 Irish women have had abortions in Britain over the past 22 years (http://www.ifpa.ie/abortion/iabst.html). That doesn't include those who didn't give an Irish address. Would you? And it obviously also doesn't include those who had a termination in mainland Europe, where it is often cheaper to do so.

At the end of the day, Irish women should be allowed to exercise their right to choose. And not just to choose to sneak off to England. They should be able to have an abortion in a society where it is not seen as a horribly wrong and murderous thing to do, where it is not such a taboo. Unfortunately, we do not live in such a society. So we will continue to get the boat to England for "short breaks away" and terminate our pregnancies in a cloud of secrecy and desperation and return home to the land of a thousand welcomes, where we'll try to forget what we have done, too scared to seek post-abortion counselling, too ashamed to confide in our parents, forced to live with this secret.. that, my friends, I'm ashamed to say, is the Irish reality.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by irish1
I can understand your position completely but I just think theres not much point in having it illegal here if anyone that wants one can jump on a plane or boat in the morning pregant and return that evening after having an abortion.

I'm largely working off memory of the particular case in question so some of the details may be wrong; however there was an interesting paedophile case about 30 or 40 years ago, where the perpetrator fled the UK to go to Ireland with a twelve year old girl for the alleged purpose of marriage. The reason for this was that at the time it was legal to marry a girl of that age in the republic, effectively creating a loophole that legitimised paedophilia.

Thus by your logic, had the law not changed, the UK could have found itself in a position where there was not much point in having paedophilia illegal there if anyone that wanted to practice it could jump on a plane or boat in the morning with their ‘bride-to-be’. Indeed, there are numerous countries that have no age of consent where this could occur - imagine if this had occurred in Saudi Arabia rather than Turkey, for example...

Would that be all right with you?

Villain

Originally posted by The Corinthian
I'm largely working off memory of the particular case in question so some of the details may be wrong; however there was an interesting paedophile case about 30 or 40 years ago, where the perpetrator fled the UK to go to Ireland with a twelve year old girl for the alleged purpose of marriage. The reason for this was that at the time it was legal to marry a girl of that age in the republic, effectively creating a loophole that legitimised paedophilia.

Thus by your logic, had the law not changed, the UK could have found itself in a position where there was not much point in having paedophilia illegal there if anyone that wanted to practice it could jump on a plane or boat in the morning with their ‘bride-to-be’. Indeed, there are numerous countries that have no age of consent where this could occur - imagine if this had occurred in Saudi Arabia rather than Turkey, for example...

Would that be all right with you?

Man what are you on about, I was talking about abortion which is legal in the majority of countrys, not about some law that allowed paedophiles to to travel to the UK and get married to kids some 30 to 40 years ago. Is that law still there???? I doubt it.

If you want to live in the past by all means do but I'm looking at the situation today and telling it as it is.

seamus

Originally posted by The Corinthian
Thus by your logic, had the law not changed, the UK could have found itself in a position where there was not much point in having paedophilia illegal there if anyone that wanted to practice it could jump on a plane or boat in the morning with their ‘bride-to-be’. Indeed, there are numerous countries that have no age of consent where this could occur - imagine if this had occurred in Saudi Arabia rather than Turkey, for example...

Would that be all right with you?

I think that's something best left to a different thread Corinthian. While I'm not overjoyed about countries prosecuting people for what occurs outside of their jurisdiction (the UK has a policy of prosecuting people who solicit child sex in other countries, regardless of the local law), I find myself torn about that issue, as it does discourage those going overseas for that purpose. We should probably take it to a new thread though if we want to discuss it.

As for this issue, well we've all been there. My beliefs simply boil down to thinking that while abortion is never the only option, and should never be carried out, it's nobody's jurisdiction to decide what a pregnant woman can and can't do. As such, I would be happy to allow people the choice of abortion, but do everything in our power to discourage it.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by irish1
Man what are you on about, I was talking about abortion which is legal in the majority of countrys, not about some law that allowed paedophiles to to travel to the UK and get married to kids some 30 to 40 years ago. Is that law still there???? I doubt it.

You suggested that on the basis that something is legal or available in another country, and/or people can hop on a plane and avail of it, then it should be made legal here. I highlighted two cases, one of which was only two years old, where this suggestion of yours begins to fall apart.

That the Irish example is not still there is unimportant. It is, however, still legal in Saudi Arabia, Pakistan or Oman (no age of consent / marriage) and the same scenario can apply. Should this mean that a given a paedophile can technically take his child bride there to legally marry her; we should legalize the same here? That is your logic, after all.

Other examples that would further debunk, if not ridicule, your premise include drug use or honour killings - both legal and often not uncommon in other countries.

Originally posted by seamus
I think that's something best left to a different thread Corinthian.

The subject matter of paedophilia is irrelevant. My examples were simply designed to highlight a logical flaw in irish1’s reasoning - that one cannot legally justify something simply because it is legal or because it happens anyway.

seamus

Originally posted by The Corinthian
The subject matter of paedophilia is irrelevant. My examples were simply designed to highlight a logical flaw in irish1’s reasoning - that one cannot legally justify something simply because it is legal or because it happens anyway.

I know, and I completely agree with your point. I had visions of the thread veering off in that direction though

Villain

Originally posted by The Corinthian
The subject matter of paedophilia is irrelevant. My examples were simply designed to highlight a logical flaw in irish1’s reasoning - that one cannot legally justify something simply because it is legal or because it happens anyway.

How many Irish men fly to the countries above with young girls every and how many Irish women trvael to the UK each year for abortions???

Come on your argumnet is purely in theory, in reality it makes no comparisons to the abortion situation

The Corinthian

Originally posted by irish1
How many Irish men fly to the countries above with young girls every and how many Irish women trvael to the UK each year for abortions???

So if Irish men were to do so in larger numbers you would support its legalization here then?

Villain

Originally posted by The Corinthian
So if Irish men were to do so in larger numbers you would support its legalization here then?

lol is that all you can come back with??

Come on Corinthian as I said I'm just seeing it as it is, no ifs or buts but just reality.

Of course I wouldn't support its legalization, I have no right to tell any woman what she can or can't do with her body.

seamus

Originally posted by irish1
lol is that all you can come back with??

Come on Corinthian as I said I'm just seeing it as it is, no ifs or buts but just reality.

Of course I wouldn't support its legalization, I have no right to tell any woman what she can or can't do with her body.

He's attacking your point that if they can head off and get it done somewhere else, then it should be legalised because it can't be stopped anyway. That's not exactly good grounds. Anyone could make the same claim for peadophilia or drugs.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by irish1
lol is that all you can come back with??

Then respond to the question, with why it is a different case, rather than avoiding it.

Come on Corinthian as I said I'm just seeing it as it is, no ifs or buts but just reality.

Seeing it as it is is not an argument, but a cliché. You rejected my examples on the basis of nothing more than lack of demand. So logically, if the demand were there, you should support it. If not, explain why not and also if why this could not also apply to other aforementioned cases where you apparently see it as it is.

Of course I wouldn't support its legalization, I have no right to tell any woman what she can or can't do with her body.

Please clarify; this sentence seems to be saying that you would oppose the legalisation of paedophilia on the grounds of women’s’ rights, which I assume is not what you meant.

Rev Hellfire

It seems to me that most people miss the point of the abortion question throwing quotes of teenagers going off to England services no purpose other than to emotionalise the argument. As far am I am aware in a medical situation the life of the mother came first, I don’t believe there was ever a case of a child been saved at the cost of the mothers life.

The simple fact is that it comes down to this, either:
a) You believe that from conception you are dealing with a human and as such it would be your moral obligation to defend that life or the potential of that life. This I suspect is the opinion the majority of people actually have.
b) You believe that until x number of weeks the foetus is not human and its child’s future potential is not a concern. Although how you can determine at what point you become human is not within my knowledge, but maybe someone can supply information on how that is determined.

I personally am somewhat between the two camps.

And just to the topic, what rights do people feel a father should have with respect to abortions? Its perfectly legitimate in certain countries for a mother to abort due to the effect it will have on their lives or their ability to support a child. Should a father be also give the same ‘get out of jail’ card; and if not request an abortion be allowed; but to legally ‘abort’ themselves from it, as in not have to pay support etc?