Should we legalise abortion?

The Corinthian

Originally posted by BobsYourAuntie
That was my only mention of informal logic until you questioned it. Perhaps you would like to point out how this one sentence is a "misapplication" of informal logic. You seem now to be covering for the fact that you didn't know what informal logic even was!

The degree of proof you applied was so limited as to be useless. You began your apparent attempt to debunk by stating that in the absence of an argument for abortion as a “threat to Society” that there was none. You gave no evidence to say that this was the more reasonable conclusion outside that you could not see one. Such an assumption is on a par with assuming your theoretical unicorn does not exist anywhere, given your limited experience within your room.

That is all I have claimed to prove.

Not at all, as I’ve stated above.

I have not attempted to prove anything else. Are you trying for another straw man?

No, again as above. You made a sweeping statement based on no evidence. Then told the opposing argument that the onus was on it alone to find evidence.

I have made no claims relating to other rooms or other times. Straw man ahoy!

Yet you see no “threat to Society” (ergo there is none) even though you cannot see Society (that is to say you are not in a position to ascertain such effects) like you can see your room in your unicorn analogy. No straw here.

As I have clearly stated, I am arriving at NO CONCLUSION WHATSOEVER. I am simply laying out grounds for the most reasonable position to take before you even begin to argue.

But it was not a reasonable axiom to begin from.

I have not attacked empiricism here. However I would probably make an argument(this is hardly the place for it though) in favour of fuzzy logic over aristotlean logic when it comes to dealing with the real world.

I have already conceded that absolute proof may be impossible to find with such an issue, but your initial assertion emphasized the fuzzy over the logic. That is what I have attacked from the onset.

You make a sweeping assumption about Society, then make comparison of a man in a small (controlled) environment - and you accuse me of straw men?

I have made no such definitive statement. Yawn...

“In the absence of this argument it is perfectly logical to assume that no such threat exists.”

Ring a bell? Sounds pretty definitive.

I have not suggested (and I do not) that Ockham's razor is a law or anything of the sort. Another Straw man bites the dust.

But I thought “LACKING ANY EVIDENCE either way, the conservative position is the one to take”? If the conservative position, the simplest solution, is the one to take and it’s not a law, then does that mean that lacking evidence and taking the conservative position, you might be wrong?

Now you're just getting nasty...

To quote you:

“Corinthian, this is all really better suited to the philosophy board but since you are in need of some education in this area (although it is hardly my job to do so) I will indulge you for now.”

“Perhaps you could try Descartes/Hume/Popper (or anyone you like who actually existed and said things for real!) next time and we might understand each other a little better”

“Corinthian, you really must stop raising these straw men. I have better things to do than knock them down all day.”

Pot. Kettle. Black. :rolleyes:

40crush41

<This is a pretty harsh view. Why bring a child into the world which wont be loved by its mother. Why force a woman to HAVE A CHILD due to a one-night accident. >

who said she had to keep the child? what about adoption? there are lists of families that wish to adopt children, but have to wait years for a child. i have three cousins that are adopted and i love them all very much-my world would be completely different without them. and u know what- one was a product of rape, lucky one indeed isn't she?
i have a very good friend that was adopted, and another good friend whose mother was adopted, thus i have my friend. my life is better because i know these people.. was it worth it for the birth-mother to stick with it for 9 months so that the world could know these people? i think so and im sure that they would agree.


<Do you really think a woman has an abotion for this reason?>

im not saying thats the only reason why someone has an abortion, i hope thats not the case- i wouldn't be surprised if that was the say the third part of their reasoning to the choice, it is their body after all. we live in a very selfish world.

<You dont think these cases should be considered?>

its not that they shouldn't be considered. i just wonder what the reasons are for the other 98%. and this is rhetorical, don't answer it. i know what the basic reasons are.

<and a unwanted pregnancy?>

three wonderful cousins; a two good friends through adoption; many wonderful kids that i was able to meet at the crisis pregnancy center I volunteer at once their mothers choose life for them; a story of a girl who was the product of rape whose mother tried to abort her, but failed and is left with a limp-but because of this she has been very successful for she knows how precious life is.

<so you have a problem with extreme pro-lifers who stand outside abortion clinics calling young girls murderers as the walk in?>

i would consider myself extremely pro-life, who said i judged anyone? of course i have a problem with this, nobody is better than anyone else, children's books have been trying to convey this message for a very long time now.

Who is Anyone to decide who is to live or to die? is it the luck of the draw? aren't we more civilized than this? yes, once we were all a pile of cells, tbh, we still are. so our brain waves are more complex, more complex than a newborn.. does that make the newborn any less human?

hope i've crystallized things for u.
~beth

arcadegame2004

Well I wouldn't think it is humane to force a raped woman to carry ths baby to full term and force her to experience the agony of giving birth. In those cases I think early pregnancy abortion should be allowed.

isolde

Last night I wrote a really long response but when I pressed post I lost it, even though I was logged in. Tonight the very same thing happened to me. I feel it must be fate that I shouldn't reply to this topic!! But anyway I'll give it one more try, maybe third time lucky.. if not I give up.. :dunno:

---

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
In those cases I think early pregnancy abortion should be allowed.

I think abortion should be allowed early on in every pregnancy, full stop. Like MrPudding, I believe that we're talking about a bunch of cells. I think he's right, the problem with discussions on abortion is that no one ever really changes their mind on the subject because what it boils down to is that our concept of the foetus is completely different and at the end of the day that is fundamental to the discussion. I'm no medical expert and I truthfully don't know when it becomes a human being. In the past I've read conflicting opinions on this. But to me, it is a bundle of cells.

Originally posted by gurgle
I'm not saying a pregnancy isn't difficult and uncomfortable but surely a couple of years down the line a girl would find it much easier to cope with having given a child up for adoption rather than having had it killed.

Again, this depends on how you see the situation. It depends on the girl's view. Not everyone sees abortion as killing or murder. Like I said, personally I don't.. I don't see it as killing a child. So I guess none of us can say whether the girl would find it easier to cope with adoption rather than abortion. It depends on her personal opinion.
I feel that abortion does bring huge emotional after-baggage but a lot of that is imposed as a result of society telling us abortion is so wrong.

Again - criminal cases aside - pregnancy does not occur by accident. It occurs because people choose to have sex.

bonkey: you're right of course, pregnancy occurs because people have sex and willingly decide to do so.
But not all pregnancy occurs because people don't use protection. Not every pregnancy comes about as a result of a one night stand or a fling. Equally not every pregnancy occurs as a result of rape. We must look between the two extremes and consider the fact that people become pregnant even though they use contraception, for a variety of reasons, and people also become pregnant while in a relationship but then decide to terminate the pregnancy despite this.

What would you say, for instance, to a 21 year old girl, half way through her degree, who has been going out with her boyfriend for 2 or 3 years and becomes pregnant as a result of failed contraception? Okay, she chose to have sex. But it's quite a responsible and adult situation. Not a stupid kid, too lazy or cheap to buy condoms, or ignorant enough to use the "withdrawal method" or something equally foolish. What about generally responsible human beings who do everything they can to prevent becoming pregnant but become pregnant nevertheless and then decide for whatever reason to terminate the pregnancy?


My main gripe is with the way in which the issue of abortion is treated in Ireland. As I said, over (and probably well over) 105,000 Irish women have had abortions in Britain over the past 20 odd years. Can we write them all off as slappers or idiots or murderers? Do so if you wish but please remember that you probably know at least one of these women. And she's probably not such a bad person, just someone who chose to have a termination because they felt they had no other choice. Because they didn't want or feel ready to have a baby. And god I know that might sound selfish but until you or your girlfriend is faced with such a situation, who can say what you would do?? Every individual situation must be judged on its merits.

I honestly think you can't condemn outright those who choose to have an abortion until you yourself experience the panic attached to the realisation that you've conceived accidentally, without meaning or wanting to, and are due to have a baby in 9 months time, a baby you neither planned, want or can honestly cope with. I see the arguments for adoption etc etc, I really appreciate where people are coming from in this respect. But if you can honestly sit back and say to me with utmost conviction, no, I would not consider terminating an unwanted pregnancy, no matter what my personal, social and financial circumstances, no matter what my relationship status, whether or not I had support from my family, no matter what age I was.. if you can honestly say you'd have the baby.. then I would tell you that you're a stronger person than I am, without a doubt.. but I would also question whether you really have truly put yourself in the shoes of someone who is forced to make such a decision, or whether you're looking at the situation through rose-tinted glasses because you wouldn't ever want to have to have an abortion.

No-one wants to have to have an abortion. It's not on every woman's "list of things to achieve before you're 30". But god sometimes you make mistakes and sometimes accidents happen and sometimes they happen no matter how hard you try to prevent them.. and sometimes you're forced to make such a decision, a decision you never thought you would be faced with, because, like everything, it could never happen to you. Just like it could never happen to any of you or your girlfriends or wives (sorry if being presumptious but guessing most ppl here are male). But it happens. It happens every day, it happens to good people, to bad people, to rich people, to poor people, to students, to business people, to 15yearolds and to 40yearolds. Unplanned and unwanted pregnancies.. a fact of life. Put yourself in their shoes and tell me you wouldn't do it. Then, if you are ever ever - god forbid - faced with the reality of the situation.. then come back to me and tell me again that you wouldn't strongly consider terminating it. If you can say all this having personally gone through the trauma of an unwanted pregnancy.. then I genuinely and whole-heartedly applaud you.

There's so much more I want to say but it's 6:15 chez moi so I really should finish. But before I do.. one more thing - what I really really REALLY hate the most is.. the anti-abortion campaigners outside the GPO. I doubt they have ever spared a single thought for the thousands of girls who, having previously had an abortion, must have walked by them over the years. Or maybe they have, and that has fuelled their self-righteous drivel.
For many of you, abortion is murder, plain and simple. I'm just asking you to please not look at it in such black and white terms. This is one issue where there are hundreds of different shades of grey. And, only the girl herself can really justify her decision. If it's unjustified*, then she has to live with it. Either way, she has to live with it. I think in Ireland today, that's punishment enough.

~ isolde

*Edit: maybe she did it because she didn't want to get fat. Forgot to comment on that ridiculous remark. Abortion because you don't want to put on weight. Please. Spare me.

Rev Hellfire

Originally posted by isolde
For many of you, abortion is murder, plain and simple. I'm just asking you to please not look at it in such black and white terms.

You miss the point, it is actually a black and white thing. Either you believe you are dealing with a human life from the beginning in which case it is murder, or else you don't believe a human life in which case all is fine.
There's no middle ground in this.
I myself certainly don’t believe 2 week old embryo is a human in the sentient manner, but then again neither do I believe a 2 week old child (as in after birth) is a fully sentient human, it simple hasn’t developed enough to be aware of its surrounding or itself.
I think it purely comes down what it looks like for people, we know what a human looks like and a baby looks like one, so that’s a no no, but since a early term baby doesn’t that makes it ok.

Mighty_Mouse

was it worth it for the birth-mother to stick with it for 9 months so that the world could know these people?

Thats not your decision to make IMO.

TomF

I voted no on legalising abortion. I'm no debater or writer, and was very pleased to read this article which says it all for my side of the question.

"Stay of execution
May 27th, 2004
There’s an air of contentment surrounding me. I feel warm, well fed, and comfortable in a sea of fluid. The light thumping inside my form is the only perceptible sound in my tiny universe. I don’t know how I got here or what forces operated to create me, but I sense I’m experiencing the beginning of an existence. The silent nurturing from my host fills me with profound affection and gratitude, for she is the reason for my being. My senses are being carefully engineered and programmed by the genetic forebears of my host.

While confined in this sensory deprivation chamber, I am aware of a higher stimulus level. I am in tune with the feelings and emotions of my host mother. When her mood changes from happy to sad, I feel intermittent waves of hostile fluid brushing up against my membrane-covered compartment. Having no defense against this murky sea of discontent, I merely wait for it to pass and hope it doesn’t turn my mother against me.

Instinctively, I realize that I’m a burden to her. I have swollen her body with my presence and forced her to endure many uncomfortable, sleepless nights. Sometimes, I can feel ripples in my atmosphere as my host wretches her nourishment in bursts. When she’s happy, my world is calm and secure, and my future is assured. Then comes the fears, the doubts, the uncertainties and I know my being is threatened.

At times, she’s not sure if she wants me; if she wants the responsibility of having me; if she wants to bring me into the world. These are the most difficult times for me because I have no power to influence her, no power to stop her. The natural forces around me are operating efficiently to escort me to a new dimension of reality. But in order to get there, I need her love and commitment.

Although I can sense her affection, I also know of her ambivalence. She’s trying to decide if she should let me live or end my short existence with a sharp edged instrument. Cutting through the thin sac that houses me will stop the process of my birth and relegate me to the status of a human waste product. Every fiber of my tiny body tells me I am more than that. There must be a reason for each life to be created. All I need is a chance to prove that I’m worthy of the life that has been started in me. What do I do to persuade my mother to spare me? How do I make her understand that I want to be born? It’s difficult to imagine that she would destroy me because I’m inconvenient for her right now. It isn’t my fault if I was created unintentionally, as long as it happened willingly. The fact is I have been created, so why not fulfill the term of my development?

If, after I’ve drawn my first breath of air, you decide you don’t want me, give me to someone else who can help me grow. Whether you keep me or not, I will always be indebted to you for giving me life. We will always be connected on some level. Whether it’s physical or spiritual, you will have created a part of yourself that no one else can claim as theirs. Yes, my mother, you alone have control of my destiny. Only you can decide whether I will have my chance at life. What I sense from you is fear and insecurity. You blame me for those emotions and you want to erase them by erasing me. But in your heart you know you will never be able to forget the bond we’ve forged since you felt my presence growing within you. Please be there for me now, and I promise to be there for you until the end of my days. I will make something of my life if only to prove that I deserved to be born and that you made the right decision in staying the course. Please, my mother, don’t remove me like you would excise a wart or a tumor. I am so much more than an unsightly growth on the hide of an animal. Like you, I am the creation of a higher power. I have a will to live and a love to give. Grant me the right to be, and I will never give you cause to regret your decision. But if you should decide to rid yourself of me, I’ll still love you for the brief span of time you allowed. Yet, in some other existence, I’ll always wonder, as will you, what I could have achieved if given a first chance at life.

Bob Weir writes the syndicated column, "Weir Only Human." The author of 7 books, he is a retired NYPD sergeant, living in Flower Mound, Texas. BobWeir777@aol.com"

MrPudding

Originally posted by TomF
I voted no on legalising abortion. I'm no debater or writer, and was very pleased to read this article which says it all for my side of the question.

"Stay of execution
May 27th, 2004
There’s an air of contentment surrounding me. I feel warm, well fed, and comfortable in a sea of fluid. The light thumping inside my form is the only perceptible sound in my tiny universe. I don’t know how I got here or what forces operated to create me, but I sense I’m experiencing the beginning of an existence. The silent nurturing from my host fills me with profound affection and gratitude, for she is the reason for my being. My senses are being carefully engineered and programmed by the genetic forebears of my host. blah blah blah.....

What proof does he offer the the undeveloped ball of cells can have these "feelings" at what stage of development is this supposed to be? I am sorry but it will take a bit more than speculation as to what a bunch of cells may or may not be able to feel, no matter how nicely written, to convince me that me have the right to tell a woman what she can and cannot do eith her body.

I mean it is very nice and all but really has absolutly no foundation in fact or science.

MrP

The Corinthian

Originally posted by TomF
I voted no on legalising abortion. I'm no debater or writer, and was very pleased to read this article which says it all for my side of the question.

At best the piece in question was little more than third rate, puerile fiction at worst it was the embodiment of trailer trash reasoning and cheap sentiment, peppered with blunt emotional triggers for the benefit to those incapable of comprehending anything more subtle.

bonkey

Originally posted by TomF
Grant me the right to be, and I will never give you cause to regret your decision.

The inescapable conclusion of this comment is either that there are no people the world would be better off without....or that there are, but no aborted foetus would ever have grown up to be one.

Personally, I side with the "what a crock" opinion on that argument. Its about as convincing and relevant as "every time someone has an abortion, baby Jesus cries" for me.

jc

arcadegame2004

I don't accept that life begins at conception. I think that that is just a religious view, and as I am rapidly losing faith in religion - tending towards consdering it superstition, I am tending towards more scientific thinking. I believe that life begins after the baby's brain has formed. After all, it is often when the brain is no longer functioning that a brain-damaged patients life-support machine is switched off.

As such, I would only favour abortion in 2 circumstances:

A:In the early stages of pregnancy before the brain is formed.

OR

B: If the mother was raped.

OR

C: If the mother's life is at risk, including a credible risk of suicide.


If the pregnancy was not a result of rape, then I feel that mother should have the baby unless her life is put at risk by it, inlcuding a credible risk of suicide to be determined by a psychiatrist.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
I don't accept that life begins at conception. I think that that is just a religious view, and as I am rapidly losing faith in religion - tending towards consdering it superstition, I am tending towards more scientific thinking.

If you actually used ‘more scientific thinking’ then you would have to accept that something might be true, or not, independent of religion favouring it. After all, were religion to turn abortion to a sacrament, would you suddenly become pro-life? Yet this seems to be the basis for your opinion. Sorry, but there’s nothing scientific in what you’re saying, arcadegame2004 - sounds like TomF, but from the other side of the trailer park.

If the mother was raped.

If you got a job as a result of the preferred candidate being murdered by another, should you get put in prison?

arcadegame2004

Originally posted by The Corinthian
If you got a job as a result of the preferred candidate being murdered by another, should you get put in prison?

I'm not sure I really understand the analogy with abortion on the grounds of rape?

Do you mean that the baby would be as innocent as the innocent candidate?

While this is true, I don't really consider the foetus to be a sentient being until the brain has started developing. As such I don't yet consider it a person.

Originally posted by The Corinthian
If you actually used ‘more scientific thinking’ then you would have to accept that something might be true, or not, independent of religion favouring it. After all, were religion to turn abortion to a sacrament, would you suddenly become pro-life? Yet this seems to be the basis for your opinion. Sorry, but there’s nothing scientific in what you’re saying, arcadegame2004 - sounds like TomF, but from the other side of the trailer park.

No I would not suddnely turn pro-life were abortion to become a sacrament. My view is independent of religion. I meant that my view is independent of religion. I just HAPPEN to agree with religion on some issues, e.g. murder of living people who have already born is wrong, so is theft, while disagreeing on many others e.g. their idea that homosexuality is wrong, that pre-marital sex is wrong etc.

monument

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
While this is true, I don't really consider the foetus to be a sentient being until the brain has started developing.

At what point does it start developing?

arcadegame2004

Well from my research it takes 20 weeks for the brain to have fully formed.

Rev Hellfire

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
Well from my research it takes 20 weeks for the brain to have fully formed.

Interesting my research shows that the infants brain is not fully formed even at birth, and most definately not a 20 weeks. Actually I lie, it was our daughters paediatrician who said it. But sure what do they know.

TomF

I read some of these postings, full of logic textbook language, and wonder about the absence of maturity, experience of life and heart. An abortion kills an innocent human life, there can really be no doubt about that unless you are willing to define humanity away whenever its acceptance is inconvenient.

Legalisation of abortion as in other countries leads to barbarisms like establishing abortion as a medical specialty, and to the "partial-birth abortion" which, I suppose in a perverse way, tends to snap people out of their dream-state and makes them take a hard look at what the abortion movement has brought their society to. And then begins the long, slow return to the rational and good state of affairs where abortion is illegal and difficult to obtain. It takes a long time, but like other grotesqueries, abortion-as-a-right will eventually end up in the rubbish bin of history.

MrPudding

Originally posted by TomF
I read some of these postings, full of logic textbook language, and wonder about the absence of maturity, experience of life and heart. An abortion kills an innocent human life, there can really be no doubt about that unless you are willing to define humanity away whenever its acceptance is inconvenient.

You see, here in lies the problem. If you read the thread and actually paid attention to what people are posting you would realise 2 things.

1. The fact that abortion kills an "innocent human life" is your opinion.
2. Some people have a different opinion to you.

And that as I have said is the problem. I doubt very much you will change you mind and a know it is unlikely that you will change mine. As far as I am concerned aborting an early stage foetus is exactly that, aborting a early stage foetus. It is not aborting a baby, a child, a human or a potential world leader.

One thing would change my mind and that would be hard scientific evidence. You present none.

MrP

Mighty_Mouse

im not saying thats the only reason why someone has an abortion, i hope thats not the case- i wouldn't be surprised if that was the say the third part of their reasoning to the choice, it is their body after all. we live in a very selfish world.

Is it or is it not? If you talk about the insignificance of rape because only 2% of abortions are due to it..........surely this is equally insignificant?

its not that they shouldn't be considered. i just wonder what the reasons are for the other 98%.

No its not retorical. You clearly dont accept rape, incest etc as a grounds for abortion? is this true?

three wonderful cousins; a two good friends through adoption; many wonderful kids that i was able to meet at the crisis pregnancy center I volunteer at once their mothers choose life for them; a story of a girl who was the product of rape whose mother tried to abort her, but failed and is left with a limp-but because of this she has been very successful for she knows how precious life is.

Crap IMO. "all the people I might not get to know". Its not like were short of people here! What about the mothers life. What about her life completely ruined because she didnt not want to conform to the pregnant mother, stay-at-home, career-finished or education destroyed etc etc Are you gonna force a young woman to bear a child an adopt it. For what reason. The only reason would be to increase the pain as the mother becomes more attached to the baby and has to live her life knowing her child is somewhere out there. Out of curiosity to you believe in the after-morning pill? or the contraceptive pill?

Who is Anyone to decide who is to live or to die?

who is to decide how another person should live their lives. who is to decide whats right for a young woman about to start her life?

Gurgle

Originally posted by MrPudding:
One thing would change my mind and that would be hard scientific evidence. You present none.

Its all a question of where you draw the line between human and blob. I can see no scientific reason not to draw that line at the moment of conception.

At the moment of conception, the full blueprints for a unique human being are completed and its development and growth begin- it becomes an individual life.

If this human being is destroyed, it can never be re-created.

Picking a later, arbitary point, depending on when it begins to actually resemble a human is unscientific. The moment of birth is totally unjustifiable scientifically - No actual physical change occurs to the baby, only its location.

my 5c, I want change.

Originally posted by Mighty_Mouse
who is to decide how another person should live their lives. who is to decide whats right for a young woman about to start her life?

Actually...
Lets examine that statement.
Other people decide all the time how others should live their lives.
These others are the law makers and its from society ie the democratic decision of the voters that these laws stem.

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
I just HAPPEN to agree with religion on some issues, e.g. murder of living people who have already born is wrong, so is theft,

I presume you are not implying that you would agree with abortion up to the point that the baby is ready to pop out?
Does it not occur to you and other pro abortion posters here that drawing a line in the sand as to when the foetus has a right to life or not at say 6 weeks or 12 weeks is still a decision on whether someone has the right to life or not?

What I mean is that, assuming most 11 week foetus's go on to be full human beings, technically, allowing abortion at 11 weeks is permitting one human to decide on the life or death of another...
It's just something to ponder.
I've always been opposed to the very idea of abortion for that simple reason,I just couldn't in all conscience reconcile the idea with what I feel is right.

That does not mean that I would presume to take away others rights to choose whether they wanted to do an abortion,I'd just feel sad probably in the case where I knew them, but it's a matter for the parents once it's legal and society has accepted it in my view.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
Do you mean that the baby would be as innocent as the innocent candidate?

Yes. If the foetus is human, then that principle would apply.

While this is true, I don't really consider the foetus to be a sentient being until the brain has started developing. As such I don't yet consider it a person.

Actually the brain physically begins to develop long before birth, whatever about sentience. I’ll note that the question of sentience is a new argument that you did not bring up in your previous post.

Well from my research it takes 20 weeks for the brain to have fully formed.

In fact the human brain is not actually fully developed until we’re well into our teens.

No I would not suddnely turn pro-life were abortion to become a sacrament. My view is independent of religion. I meant that my view is independent of religion.

Then when discussing abortion why did you not present any argument independent of religion? That you disagree with religion seemed to be your only argument.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by TomF
I read some of these postings, full of logic textbook language, and wonder about the absence of maturity, experience of life and heart. An abortion kills an innocent human life, there can really be no doubt about that unless you are willing to define humanity away whenever its acceptance is inconvenient.

Absence of maturity, experience of life and heart? Meaningless rhetoric.

And then begins the long, slow return to the rational and good state of affairs where abortion is illegal and difficult to obtain.

Where have you used a single rational argument?

It has been my experience that those who rely too much on emotive reasoning and cheap hysteria as an alternative to logic tend to do so because they are unwilling to take a hard look at such issues. The use of emotion, that a view will give one a warm fuzzy feeling over another, is little more than intellectual cowardice. It is an excuse not to have to think.

I don’t expect you to understand what I’m saying, TomF, let alone agree with it, but “faith is the boast of the man too lazy to investigate” after all.

Mighty_Mouse

Does anybody else here feel that men believing in their right to decide on a mainly female issue is a little odd? I accept the argument (man should have some part on the decision ....ets) if there exists a relationship. But in the main are these not typically young women not in a permanent relationship (or no relationship at all) where the potential father would prefer not to have a child either?

Would all the people here argueing pro-life prefer if their 16 year son/daughter had a child as opposed to an abortion?

arcadegame2004

.

Does it not occur to you and other pro abortion posters here

I don't think it's fair to call me a "pro-abortion" supporter, since this implies that I am pro-abortion in all circumstances. I just cannot in all conscience force a poor 10 year old girl who has been raped by her father to go through with carrying the baby to full term. How cruel would that be? Imagine you were her.

I don't favour allowing it in late pregnancy where the sex was consensual, nor do I favour allowing it just because the woman fears losing her figure, nor when a woman had consensual sex and is under no threat of suicide or other threats to her life.

Just wanted to clarify that. There is a middle-way I hope.

seamus

Originally posted by Gurgle
Its all a question of where you draw the line between human and blob. I can see no scientific reason not to draw that line at the moment of conception.

I see no scientific reason to draw that line at conception.

At the moment of conception, the full blueprints for a unique human being are completed and its development and growth begin- it becomes an individual life.

Individual life, maybe. At the very least, it becomes a parasite. The actual part most people have the problem with is when it can be called a human being.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by Mighty_Mouse
Does anybody else here feel that men believing in their right to decide on a mainly female issue is a little odd?

You’re assuming that it is a mainly female issue. As I’ve already observed, the core issue in the abortion question it the status of the foetus - is it human or not? If not then you are correct, however if it (or more correctly he or she in that scenario) is human, then it becomes a human rather than female issue.

Of course, I’d also note the question of whether the foetus is human or not has hardly been touched on, outside of the odd blanket statement by one side or other assuming that it is or is not.

Would all the people here argueing pro-life prefer if their 16 year son/daughter had a child as opposed to an abortion?

Now you’re employing the same sort of emotive argument as TomF would - we are presented with ‘abortion is bad because it kills a little baby’ versus ‘no abortion is bad because it condemns your little girl’. I can see the handkerchiefs coming out already...

Tug on those heartstrings enough and we might not need to explain ourselves, after all.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by seamus
I see no scientific reason to draw that line at conception.

Reasonable doubt. I’m not arguing that it applies in this case, but even if the case for the status of a foetus as a human is not proven, then (if not of course disproved) it would be more prudent to err on the side of caution given the consequences in either scenario.

Say you are about to demolish a building, but are unable to check to see if there is anyone still inside, for whatever reason. It may even be more than likely that no one is in it. Do you demolish it anyway or err on the side of caution?

Mighty_Mouse

You’re assuming that it is a mainly female issue.

I see. Its a human issue where humans have to carry, bear and raise the child!

Tug on those heartstrings enough and we might not need to explain ourselves, after all.

Is abortion not an emotive issue? My mistake sorry. Maybe if we can come up with a scientific formula for abortion then it wont have to be an emotive decision. (2x + 19y/297469762xy = +/- abortion!!)

Does this decision not affect the 16 year old son or daughter? Does anyone have figures on the ages of girls going for abortion?

The Corinthian

Originally posted by Mighty_Mouse
I see. Its a human issue where humans have to carry, bear and raise the child!

If the foetus is human then it is a human issue as it no longer involves the mother’s life alone.

While we’re at it, is it still simply a woman’s issue if she must raise the (post-natal) child? Are you suggesting that the status of a five-month old should be treated in the same manner as a pre-natal foetus. If not why bring up the point of raising the child?

Is abortion not an emotive issue? My mistake sorry. Maybe if we can come up with a scientific formula for abortion then it wont have to be an emotive decision. (2x + 19y/297469762xy = +/- abortion!!)

So if we follow our emotions we’ll always come to the most rational conclusion then?

That may be how things work on your planet, but here on Earth we try to think things through rather than make decisions based upon warm fuzzy feelings.