Should we legalise abortion?

40crush41

<Is it or is it not? If you talk about the insignificance of rape because only 2% of abortions are due to it..........surely this is equally insignificant?>
yes, point taken. sorry to have bothered u with that.

<No its not retorical. You clearly dont accept rape, incest etc as a grounds for abortion? is this true?>

I pick my fights, ideally i would defend every human life- esp the most innocent among us. however, we must be realistic and so i will compromise (though this is an issue that is very difficult to compromise-its a human life or not, thats that.) for now i would be happy if the social reasons for abortion were illegal from conception until birth.

< Are you gonna force a young woman to bear a child an adopt it. For what reason. The only reason would be to increase the pain as the mother becomes more attached to the baby and has to live her life knowing her child is somewhere out there.>

Or maybe persuad her to abort the child so that abortion agencys can collect money from her and expect her to deal with her choice on her own? they don't give her support afterwords, instead shes alone and afraid. that is a one shot choice she made there. nothing coming back- that baby is dead (or blob of cells, whatever u perfer.)
so, which would u feel more comfortable thinking about for the rest of ur life? "my kid is out there somewhere-maybe he/she made something of themself." or "my blob of cells is gone-something that could have become a person, i wonder what that blob of cells could have achieved, but the world will never know because i choose to terminate that life (or life to be since it "might not really be alive")." whatever the case, those cells are to become a full person-their dna is set to make them the person they will be. if u like it or not, that life is ended even if u don't think its alive- it is to live, noone should stop its course.
lets simplify: u want to bake a cake. put all the ingredients together into a bowl, mix. that doesn't look much like a cake now does it? but with a 1/2 hour or so u'll take it out of the oven and there it is.. a great big cake. still not quite finished yet, kinda like the newborn that can't express itself, but with some icing and candles.. it will be all finished.
however, the baker has to stick with the cooking of this cake, sure its a lot of work, but its worth it in the end for everyone to enjoy. but say if it became to much for the baker to bear and they decided to take the cake out of the oven and destoy it before it was done, then noone gets to enjoy the cake and all the work before was for nothing. just regret and wondering how that cake might have tasted.
quite simplified, i know, but it will do.

<Out of curiosity to you believe in the after-morning pill? or the contraceptive pill?>

after-morning pill~ no: life begins at conception. though it maybe used to prevent the fetilization of the egg, which would be fine, i cannot support that it could also be used to prevent implantation, for conception has taken place, thus life has begun.

contraceptive pill~i'll pick my fights, do as u please-as long as ur not hurting others, why should i care. with today's culture how can anyone expect to tell people they can't have abortions and u can't prevent pregnacy either. leaving one option, no sex. its not gonna happen, ever. see, i let people live how they please. but once another dictates who should live or die, ive gotta problem with it. there are alternatives, use them.

think i covered everything,
~beth

TomF

I just found a reference to a newspaper article discussing abortion statistics in England. Since Irish mothers go to England for their "terminations" this may refer to what some Irish girls and women are now doing. I have been free with cutting and pasting to keep this short and to the point, but have tried not to colour any viewpoints. Note the consultant obstetrician quoted saying she "personally" would not think a cleft palate is a reason for abortion. I suspect she would also not be "comfortable" in criticizing anyone for having the contrary personal opinion and acting on it. (Aren't we all entitled to our opinions?) I think the article shows the destination that we are bound for if we legalise abortion in Ireland. This is an illustration of the consequence of cold reasoning (none of that messy ethical or emotional clap-trap considered) taken to its ultimate conclusion.

"The figures for 2002 - the latest available - from the [British] Office for National Statistics show more women than ever are choosing to terminate babies with potential handicaps, with such abortions rising 8 per cent in a year.

The 2002 figures show five babies were aborted because they had deformed feet, and a sixth because of a cleft lip and palate.

In 2000 and 2001, nine babies were aborted due to cleft lip and palate, while a further two were aborted for cleft lip alone.

Terminations for chromosomal abnormalities, including Down's syndrome, rose by 17 per cent - from 591 in 2001 to 691 in 2002.

There were more babies with Down's aborted than born with the condition in 2002, with 372 terminations compared with 329 births.

'These figures are symptomatic of a eugenic trend of the consumerist society hell-bent on obliterating deformity - and at what cost to its own humanity? ' said ethicist Jacqueline Laing, of London Metropolitan University. 'We are obliterating the willingness of people to accept disability. Babies are required to fit a description of normality before they are allowed to be born.'

The charity LIFE said it fears women may come under increased pressure if their unborn babies are judged to have special needs.

Trustee Nuala Scarisbrick said: 'This is straightforward eugenics. The message is being sent out to disabled people that they should not have been born. It is appalling and abhorrent.'

Consultant obstetrician Maggie Blott ... of the Royal Victoria Infirmary in Newcastle upon Tyne, said: 'You have to give women a choice and most people feel screening is a good thing'. ... 'Some serious abnormalities do not become apparent on ultrasound until later in the pregnancy... .'
'...I personally don't think cleft lip counts as a serious abnormality.'

Anne Weyman, chief executive of the Family Planning Association, said techniques to detect foetal abnormalities have become very sophisticated, giving women more information on which to base decisions. 'Ending a wanted pregnancy because of serious foetal abnormality is a difficult decision for the woman,' she added. 'It is vital she receives support and guidance to make the right decision for her and her family.' "

Daily Mail
Sun May 6, 2004

Zulu

Originally posted by isolde
I believe that it's not a human life. I believe it's a bundle of cells at this point. I don't know when the cut-off point is, I don't know when it becomes human. I don't know for sure what we're dealing with but I prefer to believe that it's not a human

Well if you prefer to believe thats ok then...

Originally posted by isolde
Whereas I don't believe it's a human being from conception, if it was proven tomorrow that it is a human being... to be honest I wouldn't change my mind on the issue. I would still be pro-choice and if I became pregnant next week, I would still strongly consider terminating the pregnancy.

if it was proved to be human (what it's alien?) you wouldn't change your mind?

Originally posted by isolde
I honestly don't know if it's a human being or not.. but to be totally blunt.. it doesn't really make a difference to how I feel.
(cue my god what a selfish bitch posts..*shrugs*).

Unfortunatly it does matter how you feel. If you don't already have the vote, I imagine you will soon (god help us)

Originally posted by isolde
Unless I am interpreting this wrongly, you mean cut-off point at which an abortion should not be performed? In that case, I can see your point. I mean someone has to decide the point at which an abortion should not be allowed..?

But why, it's all just a bundle of cells after all:rolleyes:

Originally posted by isolde
It doesn't always work. I wish people would rid themselves of the idea that it's only slappers having one-night stands who have abortions. That's extremely naive, extremely.

Anyway, sorry, I should get back on topic..

I said nothing of slappers - thats mearly your own insecurities.
How likly do you feel it is to conceve when you are on the pill, using a coil, with a condom, and the uses the withdrawl??? If you're that afraid of pregnancy perhaps try the above system - I gaurentee you won't get pregnant.

Originally posted by isolde
On the issue of counselling, imho people don't get enough counselling either before or after the decision for 2 reasons: 1.) because counselling is not compulsory in all cases.. I can't say for certain that it is not compulsory in the UK but know that it isn't in the Marie Stopes centres, so I would venture to say that there is no law requiring it.. and 2.) basically Irish girls are terrified that people will find out about it. The only way they end up getting counselling when they come back is if they basically seek it out themselves. The legalisation of abortion might therefore deal with this.
~isolde

why would you require concelling for "bundle of cells"????

The Corinthian

TomF, other than a demonstration of your mastery of the Ctrl+C and Ctrl+V keys (which was never in doubt, TBH), what was the point of that article you posted?

Does it address the question of the status of the foetus as human, versus simply being a ball of bio-matter? Or do you simply assume that we should all agree with you if you bombard us with enough sensationalism?

Feel free to argue from a soapbox, not from a pulpit.

bonkey

Originally posted by Zulu
How likly do you feel it is to conceve when you are on the pill, using a coil, with a condom, and the uses the withdrawl??? If you're that afraid of pregnancy perhaps try the above system - I gaurentee you won't get pregnant.

You guarantee it?

I've some friends who are parents who'd like to know if you'll back-date that guarantee and offer some financial incentive to the first couple to prove you wrong.

jc

Zulu

Bonkey I doubt very much your said freinds used all of them together. The pill, a coil, a condom, and the used the withdrawl?

There is more chance of winning the lotto without buying a ticket in fairness.

While I fully accept that contraception can fail, if people use it correctly the chance of conception is very, very, very, very, small.

Hence I do feel confident making the previous guarentee. Also if they can confirm they used the "zulu contraception method" I will fully recompensate them lost earnings due to the child.

Back to the point, though, do any of the mothers regret not having an abortion?
Do they consider there children - just a bundle of cells?

<Edited by bonkey - I edited this instead of replying to it. DOH! I think its fully reset now.>

bonkey

Originally posted by bonkey
Bonkey I doubt very much your said freinds used all of them together. The pill, a coil, a condom, and the used the withdrawl?

Thats what they said to me, thats what I'm repeating here. So either one of us is lying, or your doubts are very much misplaced.

There is more chance of winning the lotto without buying a ticket in fairness.

Wow. More hyperbole. How, ummm, convincing. The last time round, I was just completely underwhelmed by its inaccuracy, but now that you've used more of it.....gosh, well, I'm convinced.

Would you like to draw up any generally-accepted statistics for Failure Rates on all 4 methods, and actually calculate the chance of combined failure, rather than just mis-state it using some hyperbole?

I can guarantee you that it falls well within the odds of winning the lotto with buying a ticket.

While I fully accept that contraception can fail, if people use it correctly the chance of conception is very, very, very, very, small.

A moment ago you were guaranteeing that it couldn't fail. Now you're saying that it can, but that there's only a small chance, but that my friends couldn't actually be the ones for whom it failed because.....wait for it....the odds are so small!!!!

Hence I do feel confident making the previous guarentee. Also if they can confirm they used the "zulu contraception method" I will fully recompensate them lost earnings due to the child.

But of coruse, there's no way of them proving that...especially considering that you've insinuated that either I, or my friends, deliberately misinformed people about the failed technique(s) used simply because the direct implication was that your method failed!

Back to the point, though, do any of the mothers regret not having an abortion?

I'm sure you can take any action that has been carried out by groups of people and find some that regret having done / not done it, so I'm not sure what the relevance of the question is.

Do they consider there children - just a bundle of cells?

I doubt there's a single answer to that.

jc

Zulu

Originally posted by bonkey
Wow. More hyperbole. How, ummm, convincing. The last time round, I was just completely underwhelmed by its inaccuracy, but now that you've used more of it.....gosh, well, I'm convinced.

Would you like to draw up any generally-accepted statistics for Failure Rates on all 4 methods, and actually calculate the chance of combined failure, rather than just mis-state it using some hyperbole?

nope, this is a discussion about abortion, I don't intend to calculate the odds of multiple contraception failure coupled with the chance that conception will take place.

Originally posted by bonkey
A moment ago you were guaranteeing that it couldn't fail. Now you're saying that it can, but that there's only a small chance, but that my friends couldn't actually be the ones for whom it failed because.....wait for it....the odds are so small!!!!

Of course contraception can fail. Of course multiple types of contraception can fail all at the same time and a person conceives - but it's a long shot which makes me feel confident in guaranteeing. As for your friends.... nice story, I'm happy for them, now back ot.

Originally posted by bonkey
I'm sure you can take any action that has been carried out by groups of people and find some that regret having done / not done it, so I'm not sure what the relevance of the question is.

Generally people regret killing life, or having an abortion for reasons of guilt.
Generally people love there children and whatever they may have considered during pregnancy, are glad they have created a life. I was wondering if any of your incredibly fertile and unfortunate friends also happened to regret their children and who be happy to have aborted?

bonkey

Originally posted by Zulu
As for your friends.... nice story, I'm happy for them, now back ot.

Agreed...seeing as you're giving up the semi-on-topic "how to avoid the situation in the first place" bit of fiction.

I was wondering if any of your incredibly fertile and unfortunate friends also happened to regret their children and who be happy to have aborted?

I don't know anyone with a child who regrets the decision to have it. I am convinced, however, that such people do exist.

jc

Mighty_Mouse

I pick my fights, ideally i would defend every human life- esp the most innocent among us. however, we must be realistic

Ok, so you accept that theres a need for realism in this debate.

so i will compromise (though this is an issue that is very difficult to compromise-its a human life or not, thats that.)

I agree, a difficult issues but need for realism.................

for now i would be happy if the social reasons for abortion were illegal from conception until birth

Seems your having trouble with the whole need for realism, compromise ideal...........?

Or maybe persuad her to abort the child so that abortion agencys can collect money from her and expect her to deal with her choice on her own?

Yes, lets not let these young girls be taken advantage of and lose out on the few hundred euro! I agree with the need for follow-up counselling for abortion. I'm not sure but I don't think there's a dedicated service in Ireland. But then again how could there be when we prefer to "boat" them over to England. (also wouldn't like to give extreme-pro-lifers a focal point to make their placards and publicly humiliate young women!!;))

which would u feel more comfortable thinking about for the rest of ur life? "my kid is out there somewhere-maybe he/she made something of themself." or "my blob of cells is gone-something that could have become a person, i wonder what that blob of cells could have achieved, but the world will never know because i choose to terminate that life (or life to be since it "might not really be alive")."

personally If I was a young woman about to enter college etc (in bad circumstances) I would be quite happy looking back thinking thank god I made the right choice there and didnt end up in a council flat/trailer park uneducated, single parent with no future. Thank god I got-rid of that foetus after 4 weeks instead of 2 days (morning after pill). But thats just me!Maybe a girl should thank the church for the "gift of life" and "make the most" etc etc .........

lets simplify: u want to bake a cake. put all the ingredients together into a bowl, mix. that doesn't look much like a cake now does it? but with a 1/2 hour or so u'll take it out of the oven and there it is.. a great big cake. still not quite finished yet, kinda like the newborn that can't express itself, but with some icing and candles.. it will be all finished.

I'd be pretty pissed off if it took my whole life to bake this cake on my own (scorned by parents? no-daddy?)because some extremist bakers hate to see yeast go to waste

after-morning pill~ no: life begins at conception.

see we seem to be drifting rapidly away from this need for "realism" "compromise"?

i'll pick my fights

is there certain fights you can and cannot pick here. is this not the same fight? is "picking fights" not the same as not engaging in discussion?

with today's culture how can anyone expect to tell people they can't have abortions and u can't prevent pregnacy either. leaving one option, no sex. its not gonna happen, ever.

BACK TO REALISM!!!!! Yipee. Oops but only for those wearing condoms and on the pill!!! Feck those 14 year old slappers!

Also as for todays culture?? I think people have an overly-romantic view of pregnant women during WW2 with the hubbys overseas for longer than 9 months!!!, incest, shamed families beating young girls into convents, shotgun relationships and long-term unhappy marriages without divorce!! Are we to go back to thes archaic, religion-driven ideals or can we accomodate a few people who wish to live by a different set of ideals?

isolde

Originally posted by Mighty_Mouse
incest, shamed families beating young girls into convents, shotgun relationships and long-term unhappy marriages without divorce!! Are we to go back to thes archaic, religion-driven ideals or can we accomodate a few people who wish to live by a different set of ideals?

Extremely well put.

---

Zulu:

Originally posted by Zulu
if it was proved to be human (what it's alien?) you wouldn't change your mind?

Ignoring the alien comment, no I wouldn't change my mind. I would still be pro-choice, I would still support someone's decision to have an abortion if that's what they wanted and I would still personally strongly consider having a termination.

Unfortunatly it does matter how you feel. If you don't already have the vote, I imagine you will soon (god help us)

I find that comment completely unnecessary and offensive. I have the vote and use it. The bottom line here is that I am pro-choice and you are anti-abortion. Why does that automatically make me wrong? Zulu, believe me I know what I'm talking about here. I know the reasons why someone should and shouldn't have an abortion. I'm not saying it's like having your tonsils out.

I said nothing of slappers - thats mearly your own insecurities.

I also find that comment totally unfair. You're getting far too personal here. Please do not comment on my character as you honestly know nothing about me apart from the fact I am in favour of the right to have an abortion. But let me tell you something. At this point in my life I don't want a child, for various reasons which I don't feel the need to outline here. I am responsible when it comes to contraception. I am not some sort of stupid uninformed teenager, like you tried to make me out to be. I always use contraception, and by that I don't mean the withdrawal method. I have never ever had sex without it. Until very recently I was in a long-term relationship, not off sleeping around with random strangers.

For some reason you're finding it hard to come to terms with the fact that people become pregnant despite the fact that they use contraception. People don't only become pregnant as a result of a one-night-stand. Mistakes are made and accidents happen and that's just life.
Obviously it's never happened to you or your girlfriend. So therefore anyone else to whom it happens is just an irresponsible, stupid teenager?? Believe me it happens all the time and not just to slappers.

How likly do you feel it is to conceve when you are on the pill, using a coil, with a condom, and the uses the withdrawl??? If you're that afraid of pregnancy perhaps try the above system - I gaurentee you won't get pregnant.

Fantastic! Now all my worries are over. Thank you for that guarantee. Would it be possible to have it in writing? You can post it to me c/o Slappers-who-have-abortions'R'US. :rolleyes:

why would you require concelling for "bundle of cells"????

People need counselling regardless of their opinion on the status of the foetus. At the end of the day they have to make a decision on something that will affect their lives in the long-term.. to have a baby or not to have a baby.
They need to be completely informed before they make their decision, and afterwards it must be ensured that they are okay.

Because you see, Zulu, there are some people in this country who like to make out that every girl who has an abortion is foolish, stupid, completely wrong and should do a better job at keeping her knickers on. They don't seem to consider the reasons why she decided against going through with the pregnancy. They just come to the conclusion that she must be a slut who went out one Friday night, got drunk and had sex without using contraception. Hell, she probably had sex with a few guys. God knows who the father is, eh?

And you see, Zulu, it takes a lot to stand up and say "I had an abortion and I'm not apologising for it". So for every normal, merely unlucky, girl out there who had to go abroad and have a secret termination... for them counselling is necessary because they have to live in our society afterwards, a society in which they are automatically labelled as irresponsible slappers because they decided not to go through with their pregnancies.. because they made a decision, which they felt was right for them. A bundle of cells or not, they still have to live with the condemnation from those who sadly won't even try to understand what its like to have to make such a decision.. and, as far as I can see, never will.

~isolde.

Zulu

Originally posted by isolde
Ignoring the alien comment, no I wouldn't change my mind. I would still be pro-choice, I would still support someone's decision to have an abortion if that's what they wanted and I would still personally strongly consider having a termination.

I personally couldn't support someone consiously killing another.

Originally posted by isolde
I find that comment completely unnecessary and offensive. I have the vote and use it. The bottom line here is that I am pro-choice and you are anti-abortion. Why does that automatically make me wrong? Zulu, believe me I know what I'm talking about here. I know the reasons why someone should and shouldn't have an abortion. I'm not saying it's like having your tonsils out.

What makes you wrong, in my eyes, is that you can recognise human life, but still have a callous disregard for that life.

Originally posted by isolde
I also find that comment totally unfair. You're getting far too personal here. Please do not comment on my character as you honestly know nothing about me apart from the fact I am in favour of the right to have an abortion. But let me tell you something. At this point in my life I don't want a child, for various reasons which I don't feel the need to outline here. I am responsible when it comes to contraception. I am not some sort of stupid uninformed teenager, like you tried to make me out to be. I always use contraception, and by that I don't mean the withdrawal method. I have never ever had sex without it. Until very recently I was in a long-term relationship, not off sleeping around with random strangers.

Relax a moment. I never mentioned slappers or other. You brought that up completly - why? That would be because YOU assoicate abortions to young/foolish girls/teenagers.
I don't make that assoication.
Also I'm not trying to make you out to be anything. I'm argueing a point.
Good for you, you don't want a child. I don't want a child either, but I wouldn't kill to defend my personal situation. Adoption maybe, death sentance, definatly not.

Originally posted by isolde
Because you see, Zulu, there are some people in this country who like to make out that every girl who has an abortion is foolish, stupid, completely wrong and should do a better job at keeping her knickers on. They don't seem to consider the reasons why she decided against going through with the pregnancy. They just come to the conclusion that she must be a slut who went out one Friday night, got drunk and had sex without using contraception. Hell, she probably had sex with a few guys. God knows who the father is, eh? .

Why do you keep bringing this up. I never mentioned slappers or other. You brought that up completly - why? I don't make that assoication.

Originally posted by isolde
And you see, Zulu, it takes a lot to stand up and say "I had an abortion and I'm not apologising for it".

Ok, we'll get them a certificate "I killed someone" shall we?
Maybe a medal??

Originally posted by isolde
So for every normal, merely unlucky, girl out there who had to go abroad and have a secret termination... for them counselling is necessary .

I'm all for the counselling - the point I was tring to make was that it is evidently more than a blob of cells, it's human life, and choiseing to kill is a big decision to make. My standing is that people shouldn't have that choice.

40crush41

Mighty Mouse- the only reaslistic thing for me is to not kill others. this is how i view this issue: we can call it my opinion if u like. unfortunately this issue brings into the lives of so many other people. i see ur side of the issue- u have defended it well- the difference is that i see life as a very precious thing- when abortion is accepted the lines of this life become faded at the beginning and the end. sure-every person that is alive should be able to live their lives to the fullest, how they wish to live them. but i will never be able to see how anyone could decide who will get this chance to live. i understand that its asking a lot of me to want freedom for all to live from conception to natural death- but that would be my ideal- realistic? nope, not at all.

im sorry to hear that there is not more support for women who have had an abortion in ireland. a program that the church runs (at least here) is called the "rachel project" where women can go for support and to talk to others who have experienced an abortion. people cannot deny the fact that its going on-sad that people turn a blind eye to it.

and about the cake thing, i know too idealistic of me, but i don't like to think that any person's life was a waste. umm, excuse me that im a bit extreme. i wonder if u asked someone who didn't have a father if they would rather to have never lived. that sounds extreme to me.

~beth

sceptre

Originally posted by 40crush41
and about the cake thing, i know too idealistic of me

Absolutely awful analogy (or allegory) that made no sense in fairness. If you want to say that the potential is unknown and all that, don't put candles on it.

Mighty_Mouse

Mighty Mouse- the only reaslistic thing for me is to not kill others

This isnt realistic IMO!Which is what you claimed is needed a couple of posts ago.

unfortunately this issue brings into the lives of so many other people.

Not really. The lives of the mother and the potential baby. Thats two.

the difference is that i see life as a very precious thing- when abortion is accepted the lines of this life become faded at the beginning and the end

I really like this argument.But at the end of the day we live in a world were the most powerful democracy in the world, the "Land of the Free", thinks its right for citizens to possess Uzi machine guns while it still fries the brains of mentally handicapped people. I don't live in your world.

i understand that its asking a lot of me to want freedom for all to live from conception to natural death- but that would be my ideal- realistic?

It is a lot IMO. So people should be prevented from the after-morning pill?Do you think that non-religious people who live by a different set of ideals than you should be forced to have unwanted children? I just cant accept this.

a program that the church runs (at least here) is called the "rachel project" where women can go for support and to talk to others who have experienced an abortion.

I'd be very worried about anything the Church would have to say in relation to this matter. I dont mean to rant but is it "God will forgive your awful mistake young girl" type BS. I find it confusing to understand how the Church could help young girls believe they made the right decision and move on with their lives. Maybe I'm just a sceptic!!

and about the cake thing, i know too idealistic of me, but i don't like to think that any person's life was a waste. umm, excuse me that im a bit extreme. i wonder

Well I think you are to be honest. I don't think a burst Johnny and a fertile woman has to end peoples lives. (lives people who dont want children want to live)

i wonder if u asked someone who didn't have a father if they would rather to have never lived. that sounds extreme to me

But your not asking someone. A mother is simply delaying her decision to have children at a more appropriate time.

LegacyUser

I think abortion should be allowed but the woman getting the abortion should be sterilized at the same time.

monument

Originally posted by Mighty_Mouse
A mother is simply delaying her decision to have children at a more appropriate time.

Yes, she is. In doing so, she is also terminating a developing human life.

Recently on an abortion documentary on Channel 4 an abortion doctor in the UK said he actually sees abortion as terminating a human life, but that it is better for that life because they would not have to live as unwanted/poor/etc… and as you said it’s better for the woman (or partners/family/whatever) as well.

Based on that, I have a few great ideas…

Let us allow parents, or the responsible persons, to abort any human life that has not full developed, or that has not developed until it is aware (sic). ‘Responsible persons’ sounds less human, also, let’s remove the ‘Let us allow' because the human life in question belongs to the 'responsible persons’…

The responsible persons may abort any human life that has not fully developed.

The responsible persons may abort any human life that will not fully develop.

The responsible persons may abort any human life that has fully developed, then regressed to lesser state of mind, physical ability, or physical appearance.

The responsible persons may abort any human life that has, will, or may, aversely effect the responsible persons in any social, financial, physical, mental, or any other way.

How does that sound? (besides the bad attempt to write it as a legal document)

To me, at the end of the day, it’s all an abortion of a human life.


If I was a parent, I wouldn’t tell my offspring “it’s OK to kill a bird while it is still in its egg”.

bonkey

All yo uhave to do now is get a definition for "fully develop" and you're sorted

Somehow, I suspect that will be as elusive and full of borderline cases as the rest of the debate, thus not solving anything.....but hey.

jc

The Corinthian

Originally posted by monument
If I was a parent, I wouldn’t tell my offspring “it’s OK to kill a bird while it is still in its egg”.

Just not as much sport.

isolde

Originally posted by Zulu
I personally couldn't support someone consiously killing another.

Like has been said several times previously, we disagree on a fundamental issue here.. whether it is human or not. You say it is, I say it's not. And I say that even if it was proven to be, I would not rule out abortion. However you can't prove that it's human and I can't prove otherwise so we'll never agree one way or another. C'est la vie.

Relax a moment. I never mentioned slappers or other. You brought that up completly - why? That would be because YOU assoicate abortions to young/foolish girls/teenagers.

No, you're wrong. I don't assocate abortions with teenagers or foolish girls.. as I am neither foolish nor a teenager. Quite the contrary actually, i.e. I have been making the point that anyone can get pregnant accidentally, not just stupid teenagers who have unprotected sex on a Friday night. Therefore, people from all walks of life have abortions, regardless of their financial/marital/personal/etc status. The impression I got from your posts was that you think people who get pregnant without meaning to and consequently terminate the pregnancy are irresponsible/foolish/promiscious/easy/etc. If that's not the impression you mean to give, that's great.

Good for you, you don't want a child. I don't want a child either, but I wouldn't kill to defend my personal situation.

Ignoring the word "kill" here, would you force your girlfriend to go through with a pregnancy she didn't want? Would you make her bear a child she didn't want for 9 months and give it up for adoption, when she could terminate the pregnancy after a few weeks and get on with her life? I know the merits of adoption, I understand these. But if she became pregnant, despite using your fool-proof method of contraception, which you guarantee no-one would get pregnant using.... if she became pregnant against all odds and was at a point in her life when she couldn't possibly support a baby financially and was emotionally not able to cope with pregnancy and child-birth and being a mother... would you force her (presuming you had the power to do that) to have this child?

Would you put it before your girlfriend, even if it was the last thing in the world she wanted?

I put the rights of the mother before the rights of a foetus, which no-one can prove is human anyway.. and also bear in mind the 15% miscarriage rate. You put the rights of this foetus before the rights of the mother.

Thankfully at the moment I live in a country where women have the right to choose. I hope that one day the same will be possible in Ireland.

Ok, we'll get them a certificate "I killed someone" shall we?
Maybe a medal??

... choiseing to kill is a big decision to make. My standing is that people shouldn't have that choice.

:rolleyes: *sigh*. We can't agree here and we never will. It's not murder. Have a nice day.

monument

Originally posted by isolde
However you can't prove that it's human
....
which no-one can prove is human anyway.. [/B]

It is human.

What do you think it is dog? Cat? Monkey? Bird?

Originally posted by isolde
....and also bear in mind the 15% miscarriage rate.[/B]

We could start killing old people because there’s a good chance their going to die.


Do you think it is ok to kill a bird while it is still in its egg?

LegacyUser

Originally posted by isolde

Like has been said several times previously, we disagree on a fundamental issue here.. whether it is human or not. You say it is, I say it's not. And I say that even if it was proven to be, I would not rule out abortion. However you can't prove that it's human and I can't prove otherwise so we'll never agree one way or another. C'est la vie.

QUOTE]

a dna test would prove its human :rolleyes:

Zulu

Originally posted by isolde

Like has been said several times previously, we disagree on a fundamental issue here.. whether it is human or not. You say it is, I say it's not. And I say that even if it was proven to be, I would not rule out abortion. However you can't prove that it's human and I can't prove otherwise so we'll never agree one way or another. C'est la vie.[/B]

Damb aliens running around impregnating people

Originally posted by isolde
No, you're wrong. I don't assocate abortions with teenagers or foolish girls.. as I am neither foolish nor a teenager. Quite the contrary actually,blah blah....[/B]

Isolde - you brought that factor into this debate - you alone.

Originally posted by isolde
Ignoring the word "kill" here, would you force your girlfriend to go through with a pregnancy she didn't want? Would you make her bear a child she didn't want for 9 months and give it up for adoption, when she could terminate the pregnancy after a few weeks and get on with her life? I know the merits of adoption, I understand these. But if she became pregnant, despite using your fool-proof method of contraception, which you guarantee no-one would get pregnant using.... if she became pregnant against all odds and was at a point in her life when she couldn't possibly support a baby financially and was emotionally not able to cope with pregnancy and child-birth and being a mother... would you force her (presuming you had the power to do that) to have this child?

Would you put it before your girlfriend, even if it was the last thing in the world she wanted?[/B]

Don't ignore kill - because thats what is happening. I understand that you find "terminate" or "abort" more sanitary, but at least recognise the truth.
As for your whole girlfriend argument, yes I would encourage her to go through with it. I tend to take responsibility for my actions, it's a quality I look for in others.

Originally posted by isolde
I put the rights of the mother before the rights of a foetus, which no-one can prove is human anyway.. and also bear in mind the 15% miscarriage rate. You put the rights of this foetus before the rights of the mother. [/B]

again with the aliens - whats your problem - it's evidently human! The point I'm making - which you seem to be missing - I that I don't put anybodys rights first. I see all human life equal. You see mothers as more important than their offspring. (its worth noting that Hitler put arians before jews.)


:rolleyes: *sigh*.
:rolleyes: indeed. It is murder.

bonkey

Originally posted by Zulu
Don't ignore kill - because thats what is happening.

Yes it is, but in no more a proveable meaningful sense than saying that (for example) chemotherapy is designed to kill cancer cells.

I understand that you find "terminate" or "abort" more sanitary, but at least recognise the truth.

Which truth? It is true that there are what medical science will indisputably call living cells (in the form of a living organism) which are being killed.

It is not true - in any meaningful sense of the word - that a life is being taken, or that a human being is being killed.

That is purely and solely a matter of interpretation and opinion for which there is no definitive answer. You can decide you will accept the teaching of your religion, but not all religions have the same opinion, so thats as solid as claiming that any one religion is the "true" one. You can take medical opinion...after you decide which medical opinion based on ethical compromise (or lack thereof) that you decide to take.

And thats what gets me - either side of the abortion debate insisting that their view of when human life begins (in the sense of life that we hold sacrosanct) is the "truth". Maybe thats not what you were trying to say, but if you were, then you are as wrong as Isolde. Neither of you are presenting the truth. Your presenting a belief, no more and no less.

again with the aliens - whats your problem - it's evidently human!

You're failing to distinguish between "cells of human origin" and "a human life". I'm not sure if its deliberate or not.

If I skin my knee on a wall, the cells I leave behind are not "a human", but they are "human in origin". We can move step by step from that towards the boundary will occur - when the transition between "human in origin" and "a human" will occur, and again its still just a matter of opinion or religious dogma.

The point I'm making - which you seem to be missing - I that I don't put anybodys rights first. I see all human life equal.

So do most abortion advocates. They just don't have the same classification of what constitutes human life as you do....and neither of you can prove your classification is correct.

jc

Moriarty

Originally posted by monument
It is human.

What do you think it is dog? Cat? Monkey? Bird?

Is a cancerous growth in somones stomach a human? No. Is a foetus in early pregnancy human? I don't think so. Whether it might become one if left alone is irrelevant.

Originally posted by monument
We could start killing old people because there’s a good chance their going to die.

Society kills people all the time. Every time a life support machine is turned off, every time war is declared, every time safety measures aren't enacted because they would cost too much.

Originally posted by monument
Do you think it is ok to kill a bird while it is still in its egg?

Where the hell do you think the scrambled eggs you had this morning came from?

Originally posted by bananayoghurt
a dna test would prove its human

No it wouldn't. It would prove that it is human tissue. Just like any other part of your body, or any other unwanted growth on your body for that matter.

Originally posted by Zulu
You see mothers as more important than their offspring. (its worth noting that Hitler put arians before jews.)

You took your time, but you finally went and said what you were thinking all along and enacted Godwins rule. Congratulations.

Originally posted by bonkey
It is not true - in any meaningful sense of the word - that a life is being taken, or that a human being is being killed.

That is purely and solely a matter of interpretation and opinion for which there is no definitive answer. You can decide you will accept the teaching of your religion, but not all religions have the same opinion, so thats as solid as claiming that any one religion is the "true" one. You can take medical opinion...after you decide which medical opinion based on ethical compromise (or lack thereof) that you decide to take.

It is an indisputable fact that most and close to all foetus's if left undisturbed in the womb are born after 9 months or so as babies, most of which go on to become independent fully grown adult human beings.
Sperm if left alone, sealed in a condom or an egg left alone does not.
Thats a fact wholely independent of religion.

Now how can anyone reconcile that, with a view that an abortion is not in the majority of cases killing a human being. I can't

Zulu

For a start - I'm not talking religion. I'm not religious.
Secondly the "skin off your knee" won't have the vote one day; a "cancerous growth in your stomach" may kill the human it's in, but will never have a relationship, or study for a degree, but thanks for making a really crap argument.
Thirdly, the egg in my scrambled eggs was unfertilized. (I won't bother explaining the difference - read a biology book).
:rolleyes:

bonkey

Ah yes, teh whole "left alone" argument.

Well, let me try this one on you both, given that you both argue so strongly for it...

If left alone for long enough, you'll be dead.

You'll also be dead for a lot longer than you'll be alive.

So its more correct for me to treat you as a non-life, rather than a life, because by your logic, its what you end up as if left alone long enough thats important, not what you are at any given point.

The whole "if left alone" argument is misdirection. It doesn't imply anything about when something becomes a human life. It simply says that because something will probably become an unquestioanble human life later, we should consider it to be one now.

Well, sorry, but you will unquestionably becaome a dead person later, so why is it not okay consdier you to be one now, using your own logic???

Also, given that Earthman has acknowledged that its only most fertilised eggs which end up this way, what about the others?

Is he proposing that when a foetus is lost (i.e. not successfully brought to term) there should be a full investigation to determine if it was murdered (albeit accidentally)?

If the mother doesn't take absolute care of herself during pregnancy, can she be found culpable of negligence? She would be if she was negligent of the child after it was born, so if you're saying that its conception when it all starts, then surely thats when the moment of culpability also starts?

Criminal proceedings against any moter-to-be who smokes, drinks over the doctors' recommended limit, eats teh wrong food, or in any way shows similar reckless endangerment???? And guilt of - at a minimum - manslaughter if the foetus isn't successfully carried to term and/or isn't fully healthy.

Is that really what you're advocating?

jc

bonkey

Originally posted by Zulu
Secondly the "skin off your knee" won't have the vote one day; a "cancerous growth in your stomach" may kill the human it's in, but will never have a relationship, or study for a degree, but thanks for making a really crap argument.

And, as I've just said above...you'll die someday. Thats even more certain than the argument that a foetus will probably reach term if left alone.

So does this make you a corpse?

What you will become and what you are are clearly not the same thing.

Try again?

jc

combs

The wording of this poll is arse ways.
"Yes, but only if the mother's life is at risk" should read "No, only if the mother's life is at risk", which still prohibits wholesale abortion. So we'll have 2 Yes options and 2 No options.

And those who voted "Yes, but only in early pregnancy" must be having a laugh. Are you only slightly pregnant earlier on or what?