Ireland Vs. Romania

Pigman II

Originally posted by eirebhoy
Sorry, previous post edited.


If you left it by saying 9 of those matches were friendlies it would have been OK but against "disinterested opposition"? Turkey and the Czech's tried just as hard as us (maybe Nedved didn't) as did most of the Brazil team (Ronaldinho and Ze Roberto probably didn't but the rest were there usual self. I have a picture in my head of Dida roaring at his defence on one occasion). Norway and Australia (who had recently beaten England) tried hard as did Canada and Romania. The Scotland and Poland matches were away from home which meant they would have tried their best as you do when playing at home.

Well I guess we'll just have to disagree on that one as I rated the team performances by Brazil, Czech, Norway and even Romania yesterday clearly as sides giving less than 100% (even less than 70% in Brazils case).

The Aussie's, Scotland and Canada might well have been giving their all but it made little difference considering they're all pretty useless set-ups at the moment and it showed on the pitch with their performances against us.

That said tho, I'll agree with you that Turkey and Poland gave us 'real' games (probably should have said 'mostly indiffernet') and that fact mirrored nicely with the fact that these were two games that we we're VERY lucky to even earn draws in. Bear in mind that neither of these sides even qualified for Euro2004 and it shows you a truer state of the team at the moment and it's 'so called' strength in depth.

eirebhoy

Originally posted by kaids
Goalkeeper(?), Evra, Gallas, Silvestre, Sagnol, Pires, Vieira, Pedretti/Zidane, Giuly, Henry, Trezeguet.

First of all, I don't think we'll get a point from France in Paris but I'm just hoping we beat them at home and they slip up somewhere along the way. From that back line, Silvestre is probably the only player that will be in the starting lineup for Euro 2004 so they'll have a lot of adjusting to do (with only one friendly between the qualifiers to do so).

I agree Pires is playing the best football of his career but I think, at the age of 31, its all downhill from here. The same goes for Zidane. These players have a whole season to get through before we play them in Dublin in September 2005. I doubt Zidane will be in the starting lineup by then anyway, haven't seen any of Pedretti to comment.

That team looks good on paper but they have a lot of gelling to do, Ireland's team for the qualifiers is more or less playing together already.

Originally posted by Pigman II
Well I guess we'll just have to disagree on that one as I rated the team performances by Brazil, Czech, Norway and even Romania yesterday clearly as sides giving less than 100% (even less than 70% in Brazils case).

I'm sure if you asked a Polish person if he thought we gave our all against them he would tell you we didn't. It all comes down to home advantage IMO.

PHB

Zidane may be old, but he still is the best player of his generation.
His pace or strength was never his talent, his ability to pick out an inch perfect pass at the perfect time was, and he still has that.

Pires, whatever I think about him, is playing the best football I have ever seen him play and I think he is the best left winger in the world atm(which is very hard for me to say considering Giggs is my favorite player ever)

Vieira is Vierira nuff said

Viera vs. Keane - Maybe its a fair match

Zidane vs. Miller/Reid/Holland
Lets not be stupid lads

Pires vs. Duff - Maybe its a fair match

Guily vs. whoever gets to play right wing, maybe Reid
Lets not be stupid lads


2 players are as good, the other two are vastly vastly outmatched.

redspider

Originally posted by BaZmO*
I thought my posts were long sometimes!!
Tell me redspider, you wouldn't happen to be a fustrated sports journalist would you??
...
Yeah but more often than not it takes 2 or 3 players to win the match!

:-) ... I guess, I'm one of the people that has invested some "emotional time" into
the Roy saga starting in 2002 - yes, I was frustrated with Roy for "leaving" us in Saipan.

In terms of 3 players winning a match, here is something to think about:

Lets look at the sequence of passes and moves that led to the Irish goal.

+ Throw-in from the left back position by Miller to Roy.
+ Roy passes to the space in front of the two central defenders, ball picked up by Finnan.
+ Finnan runs forward and lays off a short pass to Roy in centre circle.
+ Roy sends a slowish 25-yard pass out to the wide right for Holland.
+ Holland runs inside, Robbie shows for the ball and the pass is made to him.
+ Robbie passes the ball out wide right to Finnan.
+ Finnan doesn’t see many options dribbles it back towards our end and passes it back to O’Brien who is 15-yards inside Irelands half.
+ O’Brien passes it across to Cunningham.
+ He passes it forward 25 yards to Miller who turns as he takes and steps up a gear on the edge of the centre circle.
+ He passes it out wide and forward to Morrison who has shown good movement.
+ Morrison crosses the ball early to the edge of the box, a low floating cross where Robbie awaits. Robbie is in a position to head the ball but runs away at the last moment.
+ Holland meets it sweetly first time unchallenged and with no defender in front (due to Robbie’s movement) with good direction and power – he keeper gets a hand on it but it’s a Goal.

Holland smiles gleefully, players run over to hug him. Robbie hugs him. Roy pats him on the head at arms length.

This passage of play, although just a single passage from the game, shows how much football is a team game. It shows how players must move and pass for each other. There were 8 players involved and 11 passes and arguably it was Robbie’s movement away from the ball that created the space and opening for Holland to strike and score the goal. Before that passage Rowlands and Finnan made it back to cover the Romanian breakaway after the Irish corner, which Cunningham. O’Brien went up for, was cleared.

Having 2 or 3 good players without the other 8 or 9 is useless. I could bet you a house that if you took the best 3 players in the world and put them against 11 players from the League of Ireland, the 3 players on their own would lose. Yes, its good if you have good players in those 11, the better they are the better the team performs, but the team as a whole is what counts. The players must function as part of the team - which is why, at the end of the day, the way that Roy "left" Saipan and the way he acted in that sorry episdoe was not for the better of the team.

In terms of eirebhoy's point of whether the boo's were louder at the match or on TV, I cant say. Maybe someone at the match would like to comment. The Irish Times wrote it in as jeers in their report so they heard something too. Roy even alluded to the fact on an interview with UTV, saying that some people were unhappy in the crowd but that he and most people have moved on. This is Roy pscyho-speak for saying recognising that mistakes were made. I guess thats the best apology we will get from Roy, apart from the odd tear he has shed.

Pigman II

Originally posted by eirebhoy
I'm sure if you asked a Polish person if he thought we gave our all against them he would tell you we didn't. It all comes down to home advantage IMO.

It's not as simple as that IMHO. On one hand if Brazil, Norway, Czech, Romania had been coming to Dublin looking for points instead of a pay-day they would not have put on the kind of performances they did. On the other hand if Ireland under Kerr had been playing Poland away for points I could see us putting on EXACTLY the same kind of sterile nullifying performance against them that we did for the friendly. After all we have already shown a tendency to do so in our competitive away games (succesfully - some might say) vs Albania and (unsuccessfuly) Switzerland.

All we can take from these friendlies is that Ireland (as a team) are more or less playing to their best ability whilst beating opposition who in most cases are (1) already beneath us or who are (2) not even up for the game. Whilst these matches might be giving new players experience the results themselves are of zero merit and as an unfortunate side-effect are (like the laughably flawed FIFA rankings) giving the public a incorrect perception and misguided level of expectation of the team.

eirebhoy

Originally posted by PHB
Zidane may be old, but he still is the best player of his generation.
His pace or strength was never his talent, his ability to pick out an inch perfect pass at the perfect time was, and he still has that.

Pires, whatever I think about him, is playing the best football I have ever seen him play and I think he is the best left winger in the world atm(which is very hard for me to say considering Giggs is my favorite player ever)

Vieira is Vierira nuff said

Viera vs. Keane - Maybe its a fair match

Zidane vs. Miller/Reid/Holland
Lets not be stupid lads

Pires vs. Duff - Maybe its a fair match

Guily vs. whoever gets to play right wing, maybe Reid
Lets not be stupid lads


2 players are as good, the other two are vastly vastly outmatched.

Add 16 months onto Zidane and Pires and they won't be the players they are now. Zidane will be 33 and Pires 32. Most wingers when they get to 32 play more in the middle where there's less running. Therefore with Vieira in the team I can't see both Pires and Zidane still starting in September 2005.

BaZmO*

Originally posted by redspider
Having 2 or 3 good players without the other 8 or 9 is useless. I could bet you a house that if you took the best 3 players in the world and put them against 11 players from the League of Ireland, the 3 players on their own would lose. Yes, its good if you have good players in those 11, the better they are the better the team performs, but the team as a whole is what counts.

I wholeheartedly take onboard your concise, if not long-winded way to explain that football is a team sport, but I think you missed my point. The point that I was making was that it is quite often the 2 or 3 best players in a team that carry the team to success and in my opinion this is quite evident in the Irish squad.

Let me take you rather flippant comment (well I hope it was flippant, because in all fairness 3 against 11 is always gonna be a non-runner no matter how good the 3 are!!) and change it around a bit.

Let’s just say that you took 2 League of Ireland teams, we’ll call them A and B. Now if you were to take Team A and take out 3 of their players and in their place you put 3 of the world’s best players and had the two teams play against each other, I reckon you could quite safely bet your house that Team A would win.

Football of course is a team sport but it’s having world class players that make the difference, and unfortunaltely Ireland falls short in that department, although the the future does look bright!….now where’s me shades!!!!!

B.

Jivin Turkey

Lets be honest lads, anything we get from France will be a bonus. To say that our players can match theirs is absolutley and unbelievably stupid. Dont forget our players will also have aged in 16 months (Cunningham, Keane). Their defence/midfield/attack is streets ahead of ours. And think of the strength in depth they have. They have many players about 25-26 who would piss all over our team.

As regards the match last night, I thought Miller was excellent. And Morrison was good. Worked tirelessly and won loads of headers. Robbie seemed to have no interest in wanting to link up with him. He may not be international class but he is DEFINATELY the best we have at the moment, and if Robbie ever decided to work with him he would be a lot better.

eirebhoy

I was logged in with my brothers account the first time I posted this.

Originally posted by Jivin Turkey
And Morrison was good. Worked tirelessly and won loads of headers.

Redspider - maybe you could settle this and tell me did Morrison actually win more than a couple of headers last night? When I say 'win headers' I mean, Morrison -v- Romanian defender from a Shay Given kick out.

Cheers.

BTW, Jivin Turkey - I live and hope.

Jivin Turkey

I was at the game Eirebhoy and Im telling you he ran long distances to get to the huge amount of punts sent. Im not saying he is amazing, but if golden boy Robbie decided he was going to play off him for a change we would have a seriously potent attack.

smemon

you cannot break down a team into individuals like that and compare them.

sure taking that attitiude against holland, even portugal and we would have been beaten.

ireland have never had the best collection of players in the world, its impossible given our small population. however our best asset is our teamwork.

ireland's 11 will be beaten by most class teams on paper. but ireland as a team will be beaten by few. teams like france play as individuals, play for themselves and give up when the going gets tough. we're different and thats what will make it difficult for france to beat us.

redspider

eirebhoy

Just quickly I looked at the first 15 mins of the match again (with FF). Morrison did win a header cleanly in the 9th minute. It was from a kick-out deep from the left back position by Maybury and Morrison competed and won the header with a Romanian defender in attention. He was beaten in a similar position on the 11th min but the Romansian's header fell to an Irish player. From a Given kick-out on 5 mins Robbie didn’t challenge for it and the resulting play ended up in a Romanian catching out Cunningham for pace (wasnt he also caught out by Gerard a few weeks ago and sent off). Robbie also got beaten for a header on the 6th minute. Robbie was calling for the ball to be played to him during this section of the game.

I also got a chance to look again at the Roy-Morrison chance in the 6th minute. The ball came to Miller from Roy around the half-way line and Miller attempted to pass it to Robbie who was looking for it. The pass was too strong but Roy had started a run forward and picked it up at full flight. If Roy was a Pires, that would have ended up in a one-on-one with the keeper and most likely a goal. Roy is not as fast but put in a very good cross. How Morrison failed to put it in from there is unbelievable, but the good news for Morrison was that he made the run and was in the right position at the right time. It wasn’t a corner and he was unfortunate it didnt go in.

It would take me a fair while to scan through the whole video to see what Morrison did, but overall I think he did ok. I’ll get back to the other issues hopefully later this weekend or early next week.

I agree with smemom about it being a team game.

To BaZmO, lets not take an example of A and B+3 world class players, take an example of National Team A v National Team B, and in the case of Roy, its bringing in just one world class player. Its unlikely that the one world class player can make any real difference on his own if the rest of the players aren't playing 100% with him. Last night, there were examples of players not working with Roy so well, such as Cunningham. I dont subscribe to the theory that Roy raised the game of the other players by his influence, such as Holland. Holland played a good normal game.

Dewey

I was at the game last night and i really enjoyed it. Now i will always be able to tell my kids in years to come i was the game where Roy Keane Returned.

Ireland deserved to win, but should of scored a few more.

Defence:

Given was given. depenable as always.

I didnt think Steve Finnan played that well, he defened ok but never really went forward but he has had it bad with injuries this season and i know he can do alot better and he will.

Cunningham was very shaky in the first 10-15minutes and looked tired but was find after that. O'Brian did well again and he would be my choice for Kennys partner in defence for the World Cup Q in September. Maybury did ok, you can tell he only has 5 caps but i belive he will get better with each cap.
Defence:7/10, missing a few players but got betters after bad start.

Midfeild:

Miller was very good and deserved his MOTM. he could be answer we are going for on the right. he never really looked like he was out of place and on this match you can see why Man United snaped him up.
Holland was ok, took he goal very well but disappers in parts of the match but because roy was back i dont think he would of been in the box to take the shot so i think he feels at ease with roy as his partner.
Keane was Keane and was unlucky not to score. he did well and passing was very good. delighted he is back, i say 98% of the crowd was behind him with only a few boos. but we need him for the World Cup Quliflyers in September.
Reid is getting better and better with every game, his vision is brilliant with his passing but not sure if he will get a game if Duff and Kilbane fit.
Midfeild: 9/10, they did brilliant last night.

Strikers:
Dont really no what to make of Morrison, he won quite a few header and set up the goal but still not sure if he is up to it at international level.
Keane had a poor game, some of his decsion making was very poor. but with it being only a friendly and end of season its understandable.

Strikers 7/10, did ok.

It was a good first half but died down in second half. Hollands goal was great. he only really scores great goals. And the return of Roy will be a big welcome come September. bring on France.

Jivin Turkey

I dont think there is any doubt that Morrison isnt international class at the moment, his goal scoring record in the premiership would almost open the debate is he even up to that level, however I do think he is the best we have at the moment to partner robbie.

hoolio

but if golden boy Robbie decided he was going to play off him for a change we would have a seriously potent attack.

Exactly,people never seem to realise that most of the time it isn't Morrison who is the problem - its Keane.

Right now Morrison is playing well but just not scoring but i hate when people worship Robbie Keane,he is brilliant for Tottenham but for Ireland he is mediocre often.And as for McGeady - he's played about two hours of senior football so far,lets not get carried away.I mean does he deserve a cap for any reason other then stealing him from Scotland?IMO no.Stephen Elliot is the most likely player to come through soon to partner Robbie but i don't think we should be constantly looking to offload Clinton - Robbie is holding HIM back if anything.

And as for Keano not celebrating properly - give me a feckin brake lads.So what happened?You couldnt find anything in his game/behaviour to critise so instead you say "Oh he doesn't celebrate enough,he's a traitor,booooooo" - i think by playing the full 90 he showed what the game meant to him.

Dustaz

To all the people saying they didnt hear booing - what game were you at?

I was in the north terrace and there was some booing there, mostly from the same type of idiots who boo rangers players but more than i expected (i cant believe anyone would boo an irish player). I heard a fair amount of boos from the stands too but it was more than drowned out by the hero-worship cheers that came whenever he even looked at the ball. Mostly these came from the same type of morons who wear utd jerseys to ireland games but again there seemed to be a lot of people who were genuinly behind him. I was happy to see that i wasnt the only one maintiaining a polite silence with regards to Roy

Dewey

Originally posted by hoolio
Exactly,people never seem to realise that most of the time it isn't Morrison who is the problem - its Keane.

Right now Morrison is playing well but just not scoring but i hate when people worship Robbie Keane,he is brilliant for Tottenham but for Ireland he is mediocre often.
Robbie is holding HIM back if anything.

i disagree with you there. Robbie Keane is a brilliant player for Spurs AND for Ireland. there are not many players who have 50 caps and are on the brink of breaking the leading goal scoring record at the age of 23. Robbie should of been selfish against Romania but he was cause he was trying to set up goals for other player when he should of been haing a go himself.
I was at the game and all morrison was doing was trying to win headers and to be far to him he did but he needs to work with his feet to link up well with robbie. Clinton is trying to be the big man when he isnt.

hoolio

I wasn't at the game,watched it on TV3 and you although you could definitely hear booing it came across as if it was just a guy/two who happened to be beside the mic.You didn't really get the sense there was alot of it,maybe thats what people are referring to.

I don't like booing players,not on the Irish team or any team you supposedly support.I mean i don't like David Connolly very much but i won't boo the guy when he is playing for Ireland - its idiotic.I mean say you want to boo any time an opposition player gets the ball then go ahead but you cannot boo your own team,it just makes no sense to me.

Jivin Turkey

Originally posted by Dewey
i disagree with you there. Robbie Keane is a brilliant player for Spurs AND for Ireland. there are not many players who have 50 caps and are on the brink of breaking the leading goal scoring record at the age of 23. Robbie should of been selfish against Romania but he was cause he was trying to set up goals for other player when he should of been haing a go himself.
I was at the game and all morrison was doing was trying to win headers and to be far to him he did but he needs to work with his feet to link up well with robbie. Clinton is trying to be the big man when he isnt.

Ok, for a start I never said Robbie wasnt good, he is probably the best striker we ever produced. HOWEVER he often fails to produce, what he does for ireland, what he does for spurs, plus he is selfish with the ball. People slagging clintron are fools. He works titrlessly and won loads of ball for robbie to work off if he was bothered.


PS I hope you are taking the piss when you say this

all morrison was doing was trying to win headers and to be far to him he did but he needs to work with his feet to link up well with robbie.

Tellox

The only boo'ing of Keane I can remember is about the 19min mark where a lone fool screamed "BOOOOOOO" when keane got the ball, and did similar when he got the ball back. He seemed to shut up after that though. Hopefully someone turned around and gave him a smack in the mouth.

Robbie Keane was VERY selfish in this match, imo. And I think he knows it. He far too often made ambitious runs, wheras a pass would've been a much better option. I thought Morrison was a much better player then Robbie in that particular match. Why he got so much stick for it is beyond me..

Decent performance by Holland, although he still did his invisible man act for periods during the match. Cracking goal.

Jivin Turkey

Originally posted by Jivin Turkey
Ok, for a start I never said Robbie wasnt good, he is probably the best striker we ever produced. HOWEVER he often fails to produce, what he does for spurs, for irelsmf, plus he is selfish with the ball. People slagging clintron are fools. He works titrlessly and won loads of ball for robbie to work off if he was bothered.


PS I hope you are taking the piss when you say this

all morrison was doing was trying to win headers and to be far to him he did but he needs to work with his feet to link up well with robbie.

Tellox

..why did you just quote yourself?

Jivin Turkey

Originally posted by Tellox
..why did you just quote yourself?

The words "plas" and "tered" spring to mind. Keep it real ; )

eyerer

Originally posted by Dustaz
I was in the north terrace and there was some booing there, mostly from the same type of idiots who boo rangers players

i thought that too

I wasn't at the game,watched it on TV3 and you although you could definitely hear booing it came across as if it was just a guy/two who happened to be beside the mic.You didn't really get the sense there was alot of it,maybe thats what people are referring to.

early on it seemed like that, but later in the match it sounded like there were a fair few that were booing too

i think booing him is out of order


i also have to laugh at the guy near the mic who kept shouting "c'mon ireland!" every 10-20 minutes, sounded like a right fool
but at least he was supporting the team

thejollyrodger

why cant ireland supporters like boo ALL of the other team when they come to landsdowne road ? instead of booing our own players

Pigman II

1) I'm getting tired of this 'how are we going to match France' mentality here. We can right now forget about France! Unless they get 30 similtaneous injuries AND turn up hung-over then the best we're going to get off them is 1 point, so get over it and stop wondering how Cunningham is gonna deal with Henry and co. It's a write-off.

In reality we should be worrying about our old friends Switzerland kicking our asses ONCE AGAIN and dumping us into 3rd place. They are in our group too if you haven't already forgotten with your collect French-fever. But people here despite all evidence to the contrary seem to have it as a given that we'll turn them over and at the very worst claim second place. It's just like the Roy Keane affair. Those two Swiss defeats have already been forgotten by the fans as tho they never even happened.

The major reason we even qualified for WC2002 was because the Dutch/Portugese understimated us at the begining and wrote us off completely inbetween their own plans to carve up the group between themselves. Likewise we were repeatedly guilty of doing the same to Russia/Switzerland and look where it got us - now two years on we seem to learnt nothing and we're back doing it again!

2) Also to people who say Robbie is the bees-knees because he has 18-goals, you're wrong. Someone like Alrdige probably would have got 25-30 for Ireland by cap 50 if he had taken Robbie's selfish attitude. But thankfully Aldo realised a strikers game (for Ireland at least) than getting braces of goals in meaningless friendlies. Robbie is not fulfilling his potential anymore I for one am getting sick of his on-field attitude tbh mainly because I realise what a great player he could be if he got his game sorted.

I can't remember Robbie having a top notch performance since the World Cup and he's stagnating as a player IMHO. He's arsing around too much and DIY-ing like his was still on his childhood estate green. He'd better cop on and start becoming a team player or he's just going to be a liability to us.

3) In disagreement to some I think people should be free to boo a player without being peer-bullied by the crowd into silence. Fans (even the boo-boys) pay their money to get into the ground and after that they should be allowed to voice their negative feelings if they think a player is short-changing them.

Also to all the people congratulating themselves for the relative lack of booing I have no doubt that (like how terrace chanting works) more people who felt aggrevied by the situation would have booed Keane in protest (instead of reluctlantly remaining silent) if the vocalisation hs been organised or started by a core group of supporters instead of just the odd guy here and there voicing his disconcent. One's and twos can easily be silenced in a crowd of 40,000.

After all a home player will get booed at Lansdowne if properly organised. It's already been proven. In 1996 the Lansdowne crowd booed Keane (surprise,surprise!) continuously in a game v Iceland after either a radio show or a newspaper (I can't remeber which) offered up the idea as 'reward' for his absence from a US cup tour due to his 'I don't do friendlies' principles.

Finally With regard whoever made the Connolly example, there's a difference between booing crap player like Connolly just because he's crap and booing Keane for being a traitor. I would never boo ANY player on the Irish team just for lack of talent as long as I believed for even a second that theywere giving it their all, still had commitment to the cause and had the best interests of the team at heart.

cournioni

Good game, I really enjoyed it. I was standing beside a number of anti-Keane people at the game and I think it is safe to say that they weren't there to support anyone. Not real Irish fans. They only came to boo Keane and didn't even seem to cheer when Ireland scored.

One of them even had the cheek to bring Man United into the arguement, I was there to support Ireland and Keane to drown them out. I didn't have a United jersey on me either, I had an Ireland jersey on me. In my opinion is they should just be ignored.

On the team front, I think his return had a positive effect on the team. Holland seemed to really work more with Keane around. I thought the whole midfield area was great for us. Miller really looks a player, Reid played well too. Morrison I thought done alright, ok he fell over alot and done silly things. But he won so many headers and 50/50 challenges on Thursday that he should be given the benefit of the doubt. The defense was shaky all night, I don't think it was the centre half's fault though. I thought Finnan and especially Maybury were very shakey. Hopefully we will have Carr and O'Shea in there for the qualifiers. Robbie Keane was very poor on Thursday, he seemed to try and walk the ball into the net every time. Roy was what I expected him to be. He didn't push himself too hard for periods because there wasn't really a need for it. He didn't really shout much either, but I think come the Qualifiers he will be snapping at people and getting in tough tackles. He had a good game, and what was expected.

On the whole, a good performance that looks very promising.

smemon

Originally posted by Pigman II
Unless they get 30 similtaneous injuries AND turn up hung-over then the best we're going to get off them is 1 point, so get over it and stop wondering how Cunningham is gonna deal with Henry and co. It's a write-off.

typicl irish attitude. that MUST change if we're to challenge the big guns. thats exactly what roy keane has a problem with - giving up before a ball is kicked. thats part of the reason he left ireland. obviously kerr has ambitions and wants to become a world force, you have to fully believe it if you are to achieve it.

2nd best isnt good enough. i dont want to beat switzerland and finish with a play-off. i want to win the group and knock a big gun out on the way.

a win or draw against france isnt a bonus, its whats we should be aiming for.

bizmark

Originally posted by smemon
typicl irish attitude.

Aye that’s so true every game Ireland plays is nearly always followed with posts about how lucky we where or how the other team must surely not have been playing to win (i mean why should they) added to that the defeatist attitude before some games are played tis a bit stupid and annoying,

eirebhoy

Originally posted by smemon
typicl irish attitude. that MUST change if we're to challenge the big guns. thats exactly what roy keane has a problem with - giving up before a ball is kicked. thats part of the reason he left ireland. obviously kerr has ambitions and wants to become a world force, you have to fully believe it if you are to achieve it.

2nd best isnt good enough. i dont want to beat switzerland and finish with a play-off. i want to win the group and knock a big gun out on the way.

a win or draw against france isnt a bonus, its whats we should be aiming for.

Completely agree. We have 6 first team players playing for a top 5 premiership team (Given, Miller, O'Shea, Duff, O'Brien, Roy), we also have Finnan but he probably won't be in the first team for the qualifiers. The other players Carr, Cunningham, Robbie, Holland and A.Reid are all players with the ability to be playing in a top 5 club. 4 of our first team players captain their club (Cunningham, Roy, Holland, Carr) and Given would probably be the vice-captain of Newcastle. 8 of those players would be the 1st-3rd down on their managers team sheet (Given, Duff, Roy, Cunningham, Holland Carr, Robbie, Reid). You may have noticed I left Morrison out.;)

People have to start realising that we actually have a good team which is probably the best we ever had and ever will have. We may not have superb strength in depth but Kerr has capped 39 players so we do have backup of some sort.

Big Ears

Well actually Gary Speed is vice -captain at Newcastle , but who cares .

Pigman II

Originally posted by smemon
typicl irish attitude. that MUST change if we're to challenge the big guns. thats exactly what roy keane has a problem with - giving up before a ball is kicked. thats part of the reason he left ireland.

Actually If I had a so called 'typical Irish attitude' and was indiscrimintly writing us off against superior opposition then I'd have made sure to say we were also definetly gonna lose to the Swiss too as they (like the French) are a better side than us right now as well.

Originally posted by smemon
2nd best isnt good enough. i dont want to beat switzerland and finish with a play-off.

I don't want just that much either. I'd love us to win 10 out of 10 and top the group. Unfortunately (football-wise at least) we've got to live in the real world here and not the fantasy-based one that most Irish footy fans have created and cocooned themselves in ever since Kerr's appointment. Also like history has already proven whenever an Irish team goes into a situation complacent and brimming with you're patented brand of self-confidence, they regularily come out with a bloody nose. Egypt 1990, Spain 1993, THE ENTIRE WC94 bar match 1, Liechtenstein 1995, Macedonia 1997 and Nigeria 2004 (;)) immediatly come to mind.

Originally posted by smemon
i want to win the group and knock a big gun out on the way.

If a fan of Iceland or Poland (or any other 3rd rate European team like ourselves) just wrote your sentence to you you'd be laughing at him for his optimistic naiveity.

Originally posted by smemon
a win or draw against france isnt a bonus, its whats we should be aiming for.

Absolutely, we (as in 'they' - the players) should be aiming for it. My point is that is that all things being equal they won't get it (and hopefully not for the want of trying). What's getting to me is this ridiculuous level of confidence and expectation that's infecting the Irish soccer-going public and making us forget that we came (a deserved) third in our last (very weak) qualifying group ... and that we don't look to have learnt much from it since.

Completely agree. We have 6 first team players playing for a top 5 premiership team (Given, Miller, O'Shea, Duff, O'Brien, Roy), we also have Finnan but he probably won't be in the first team for the qualifiers. The other players Carr, Cunningham, Robbie, Holland and A.Reid are all players with the ability to be playing in a top 5 club. 4 of our first team players captain their club (Cunningham, Roy, Holland, Carr) and Given would probably be the vice-captain of Newcastle. 8 of those players would be the 1st-3rd down on their managers team sheet (Given, Duff, Roy, Cunningham, Holland Carr, Robbie, Reid). You may have noticed I left Morrison out.

Yes, the key to your misplaced pride being the word 'premiership'. Granted if the year was 1980 or if you decided to stay in the present and replace the word 'premiership' with 'la liga' or 'serie a' then I might be equally cocky about out chances based on the selection of clubs our players currently line out for.

People have to start realising that we actually have a good team which is probably the best we ever had and ever will have.

I take it you've never watched Ireland v England at Wembley in 1991 or Ireland v USSR in 1988 or even Ireland v France in 1981? I think if you had then you'd realise this current team is certainly not 'the best we ever had' - not even close and are in fact just an average bunch at best.

We may not have superb strength in depth but Kerr has capped 39 players so we do have backup of some sort.

Capping 39 players simply just means we've capped 39 players .... not that we have 39 players of any quality at this level that we can depend on. I think todays match alone may have proven that in one or two cases.

hoolio

Finally With regard whoever made the Connolly example, there's a difference between booing crap player like Connolly just because he's crap and booing Keane for being a traitor. I would never boo ANY player on the Irish team just for lack of talent as long as I believed for even a second that theywere giving it their all, still had commitment to the cause and had the best interests of the team at heart

TBH i'd never boo Conolly anyway but why i used him was an example was of someone who you mightnt like and someone who for whatever reason you don't want to play for Ireland,i wasn't saying i'd want to boo because he is bad,he's just someone who i have an irrational dislike for. I'd never boo a player for being crap,and i'd never boo one for any reason.

You should be allowed to voice your feelings yes but how about say how about it happened that in our last qualifier,in the 3rd minute of stoppage time,Roy Keane is taking a penalty to send us to the World Cup - is it right to boo him as he runs up to strike the ball?Hope fully no and i think that if that it did happen the boo-boys would quickly shut the hell up.And to me the 93rd minute penalty is exactly the same as a 2nd minute corner,or a 12th minute dribble and Roy Keane could be any player on the team.For me you do NOT boo your own team.


We can beat the Swiss,we should anyway,i think we are better then them.And as regards France it depends what happens on the day really,where it is being played etc.We all know that France at their very best are far better then us at ours but thats no reason we can't win (at home anyway).I mean if we do beat them it would be a huge scalp and if we didn't it might not surprise many neutrals,but we still could do it.I think our qulaification is really depending on how we do against the smaller teams - Israel,Cyprus,Faroe Islands and Armenia we should be aiming to beat both home and away.We are meant to be in the top 15 teams in the world for christs sake,we should crush teams like Armenia,i mean can anyone here name a single Armenian player?Ok we shouldnt be surprised to lose in France or maybe Switzerland,i think us and those two will take some points off each other and it will probably come down to other results,second place will anyway.If we can keep Duff/Keano fit,teach Robbie how to pass,Clinton how to score and if the younger players like Reid/Miller improve we can go through,almost certainly not in first but second is do-able.

If a fan of Iceland or Poland (or any other 3rd rate European team like ourselves) just wrote your sentence to you you'd be laughing at him for his optimistic naiveity.

Thats a bit harsh i think.Teams better then us - England,France,Spain,Germany,Portugal,Holland.After that i think we are about as good as anyone else.I wouldnt say we are 3rd rate by any means,but for the most part i agree totally with what all you have said

Dewey

I have to say Pigman II, i hate people with attitudes like the one you have. Always negitive towards the Irish team and never positive. Always looking at the bad points and never the good ones. Why do you say the Swiss are better then Ireland?? i know they are on the plane to Euro 2004 and deserve to be there. But are you telling me then in September when we face the Swiss we wont have any chance at ALL?

If a fan of Iceland or Poland (or any other 3rd rate European team like ourselves) just wrote your sentence to you you'd be laughing at him for his optimistic naiveity.

why do you say that? are you saying you dont want Ireland to Knock out the big guns and top the group?? what smemon said was:

i want to win the group and knock a big gun out on the way.

who wouldnt like to do that?. Wales would love to knock out England, Scotland would love to knock out Italy. Ireland would love to knock out France. Fans can dream.

And when the World Cup Quilifiers start in September i will be hoping Ireland tops the group and knocks out France. that doesnt mean i think Ireland will do that but i hope they do.

The Muppet

When we saw the Draw for the last world cup most supporters would have acknowledged that it was a very tough group to get out of but we got behind our team an supported them none the less and ended up qualifing for the finals.

This group is no different. France are a good side but even on thier day they are by no means undefeatable, They are also capable of producing terrrible performances such as saw them home early from Japan. This is one supporter that will not be conceding defeat before a ball is kicked and now that we are fielding our strongest team I believe we have as much a chance as anyone else of getting out of the group.

In the recent Ireland Romania match I thought we looked solid in midfield with the return of Roy he had a reasonable game and the whole team performed well. I am surprised to see Robbie Keane get the criticism he has here. He is the most prolific scorer ever in the green jersey and has scored at the highest level of the game, he is greedy but show me a top class striker that isn,t, He is still young enough to improve on some aspects of his game and is by far the best striker we have. Clinton Morrison is another one that has come in for criticism, I dont think he is ever going to be a world beater but he is as good as anyone else we have available in that position and he plays his heart out for the team , what more can you ask of a player?


I was delighted to see the supporters putting the past behind them and getting behind the team. The past can not be changed ,it has been debated to death and everyones opinion is so entrenched at this stage that those opinions won't be changed, For the benefit of our national team it's time to move on, put what happened down to experience , welcome the positive changes that it has brought about and get behind our national team and support it.

Unfortunately these days you'll always get the Boo Boys at landsdown. They turn up to push their own agenda , usually they boo the opposition, on thursday they thought it acceptable to boo their own . I was delight to see there were very few of them and as someone else said earlier in the thread they are not true supporters at all. The vast majority of Irish Fans showed they were willing to move on and support our team which is just as it should be and has to be if we are to have any chance of playing in the next World Cup finals.

eirebhoy

Originally posted by Pigman II
I don't want just that much either. I'd love us to win 10 out of 10 and top the group.

We failed to win 3 matches in the last World cup Qualifiers and still came joint top. I won't be going over to Paris expecting to win but I will be expecting to get something at home. I think its safe to say that we won't win all 10 matches but we could still top the group.

Originally posted by Pigman II
If a fan of Iceland or Poland (or any other 3rd rate European team like ourselves) just wrote your sentence to you you'd be laughing at him for his optimistic naiveity.

You're going a bit OTT calling us a third rate team. You even compared us to Poland, a team we drew with away from home without Roy, Robbie, Duffer, O'Brien, Carr, Finnan, Kilbane, Holland and a few others (Poland had a full strength team).

Originally posted by Pigman II
What's getting to me is this ridiculuous level of confidence and expectation that's infecting the Irish soccer-going public and making us forget that we came (a deserved) third in our last (very weak) qualifying group ... and that we don't look to have learnt much from it since.

I'm just making excuses now but 6 (McAteer, Breen, Carsley, Kilbane, Kinsella and Doherty) of the players that started against Russia and Switzerland would be extremely lucky to get into the current team which shows that we have rapidly improved over the last 2 years. We were missing Robbie Keane for the Russia home game which meant we had virtually one (division one rate) striker in the team, Morrison. Cunningham was suspended for the Swizz game in Basel which meant we had to put out a centre half pairing of O'Shea and Breen. We also had Connolly partering Keane up front which just never worked. Plus, no Roy for the entire capaign.

Originally posted by Pigman II
I think if you had then you'd realise this current team is certainly not 'the best we ever had' - not even close and are in fact just an average bunch at best.

If the Irish team is average the premiership must be well below average.

BTW Hoolio, where did you get Armenia from?;)

hoolio

BTW Hoolio, where did you get Armenia from?

Christ you know i have no idea,moral of the story kids - "never post when you are semi-conscioius"!

Anyway my point is the same,against the 3 minnow teams we should be DEMANDING 3 points every game.

Pigman II

We failed to win 3 matches in the last World cup Qualifiers and still came joint top. I won't be going over to Paris expecting to win but I will be expecting to get something at home.

I didn't realise we came 'joint top' in our group? If so then we should have told FIFA that before they sent us packing our bags for Tehran. Would have saved us (but not Roy of course because he didn't even bother to travel anyway) a lot of hassle. Stick to the facts, embellishing the truth doesn't get us anywhere.

I think its safe to say that we won't win all 10 matches but we could still top the group.

We haven't topped a group since 1987 and even then it was only because of a bizarre collection of results by all teams concerned and a last minute goal in the final game of a match we weren't even playing in. I'm not trying to rain on your parade, I'm just simply trying to show you that Irish squads just don't have the capasity to win qualifying groups.

You're going a bit OTT calling us a third rate team. You even compared us to Poland, a team we drew with away from home without Roy, Robbie, Duffer, O'Brien, Carr, Finnan, Kilbane, Holland and a few others (Poland had a full strength team).

No I'm not. Fact of the matter is Iceland/Poland and Ireland all came 3rd in their Euro groups - hense we are 3rd rate. Only difference of course is Iceland and Poland were actually closer pointswise to a play-off place than we were.

I'm just making excuses now

Yes, that much is clear

but 6 (McAteer, Breen, Carsley, Kilbane, Kinsella and Doherty) of the players that started against Russia and Switzerland would be extremely lucky to get into the current team which shows that we have rapidly improved over the last 2 years.

You're contradicting yourself now and saying Kilbane would be lucky to be in the current team whereas in the previous paragraph you listed him as someone you would consider a missed absentee. Can't work both ways.

We were missing Robbie Keane for the Russia home game which meant we had virtually one (division one rate) striker in the team, Morrison. Cunningham was suspended for the Swizz game in Basel which meant we had to put out a centre half pairing of O'Shea and Breen. We also had Connolly partering Keane up front which just never worked. Plus, no Roy for the entire capaign.

Yes, we had this problem and that problem, we had all kinds of problems. This is why we have a squad to cover for these eventualities. Do you think we didn't have any injuries during our impressive WC2002 qualifying campaign either? Do you think Richard Dunne was in there v Holland (a) and Portugal (h) on merit?

If the Irish team is average the premiership must be well below average.

Yes, that's right and 12 years of Champions League football should have demonstrated that conclusively to everyone by now.

why do you say that? are you saying you dont want Ireland to Knock out the big guns and top the group??

No, I'd love it. I'm just saying it's VERY unlikely to happen and that our energies would be best placed making sure Switzerland don't turn us over again.

I have to say Pigman II, i hate people with attitudes like the one you have.

Well then I hate people with attitudes of hating my attitudes. Does that make us even?

Always negitive towards the Irish team and never positive.

I'm neither being positive or negative. I'm trying to be realistic rather than just deluding myself.

Why do you say the Swiss are better then Ireland?? i know they are on the plane to Euro 2004 and deserve to be there.

You just answered your own question there.

But are you telling me then in September when we face the Swiss we wont have any chance at ALL?

No we of course have a chance because for one thingk I don't rate the Swiss that far ahead of us anyway. My point is everyone is so wrapped up in how we are going to steal the group from France they seem to have forgotten the Swiss are even a Euro2004 qualified team with back to back wins over us.

When we saw the Draw for the last world cup most supporters would have acknowledged that it was a very tough group to get out of but we got behind our team an supported them none the less and ended up qualifing for the finals.

Then most supporters didn't have a clue. All evidence from our Euro2000 quals already showed that we indeed had the potential to punish ANY top side at home and steal draws away with a bit of luck. The fact that we caught the Dutch/Portugese away early in the group when they were still 'jet-lagged' only helped our cause.

This group is no different.

This group is a lot different. Barring a few lean years in the late-80's early 90's France have a consistant pedigree in qualification and finals that spans more than 20 years. They are not like the Dutch and Portugese whose only dependible attribute is that they are consistently inconsistent. The fact that the Swiss who have the psychological edge on us are in there too only compounds matters.

cournioni

I would prefer Ireland to win ten out of ten rather than eight out of ten Pigman. People have to aim for the highest possible position they can. You say people should live in the real world. Well in the real world beating France twice is possible. How many games did they win at the last world cup? None. Are you saying that the likes of Senegal and Uruguay are better than us. Surely you'd be joking if you said they were.

ANYTHING is possible. Plus the fact that Henry can't play for shít outside the prem.

smemon

Originally posted by PORNAPSTER
People have to aim for the highest possible position they can.

exactly. they must set their sights on 1st place, it doesnt mean they're going to get it. you can't go into every game looking at the final table and how it will finish, you must take each game as it comes and fully concentrate on winning each match.

if ireland had a weak team i'd understand the under-dog approach but the reality is we're ranked 15th in the world or something and rightly so i think. you know as well as i do ireland can beat ANYONE on their day. but we must believe we can do it 1st.

if your climbing mount everest with a group and dont fully believe you can do it the chances are you won't and the group will give-in once the 1st few have had enough. however if you convince yourself you can do it you put yourself in a much stronger and healthier position. people around you will benefit from that confidence and when the going gets tough hopefully that positive attitude will be the deciding factor that keep people going.

point is that although we may not finish 1st or beat france we have to at least make ourselves believe we have a chance of doing it.

AngelofFire

a look ahead to the game against france

Goalkeeping-Shay given better be on top of his form to keep them shots out.

Defence-Cunningham and O`Brien need to put in an even better performance as a partnership then they did against brazil.There is no margin for error when facing a combination like henry/trezeguet.Carr needs to mark pires shirt tight. O`shea may have to double up with another centre back in marking henry when he drifts on to the flank.

Midfield-Holland and Keane will be ideal in the centre of the park both are strong tacklers and will work hard to prevent zidane and viera from imposing their style.miller will need to put in a merit performance but i believe that he is world class material in the making.Duff will have to exploit every weakness in the french defence. Service to the front two must be good.

Forwards-its pivotal that Keane puts in a good performance, morrisson likewise. both men must be played to their strenghts morrisson must hold to ball up and give it to keane when opportunities arise but also take some chances himself. If the front two dont perform we will struggle.

if we take 2 or more points from both fixtures we will be doing well.

eirebhoy

We'll have to agree to disagree on most/all points but here I go again. I don't agree with any of your points and I won't argue with you wether I feel the Premiership is below average or not. We're probably lucky that most of the French team play there in that case.

Originally posted by Pigman II
I didn't realise we came 'joint top' in our group? If so then we should have told FIFA that before they sent us packing our bags for Tehran. Would have saved us (but not Roy of course because he didn't even bother to travel anyway) a lot of hassle. Stick to the facts, embellishing the truth doesn't get us anywhere.

1 PORTUGAL 10 7 3 0 33 7 +26 24
2 Ireland --- 10 7 3 0 23 5 +18 24

Of course there has to be a means of seperating the top two (ie.goal difference) but we did come joint top on points, Fact.

We haven't topped a group since 1987

Italy haven't won a major tournament since 1982, they have no chance in Euro 2004 now. France had never won a world cup until '98...

No I'm not. Fact of the matter is Iceland/Poland and Ireland all came 3rd in their Euro groups - hense we are 3rd rate.

France came bottom in their WC group, are they on par with China, Saudi Arabia, et al? Were Holland a third rate team in 2002? We also have a different team than the team of 18 months.

You're contradicting yourself now and saying Kilbane would be lucky to be in the current team whereas in the previous paragraph you listed him as someone you would consider a missed absentee. Can't work both ways.

How on earth am I contradicting myself? Are we only allowed a maximum of 11 decent players in a squad?

Pigman II

I would prefer Ireland to win ten out of ten rather than eight out of ten Pigman. People have to aim for the highest possible position they can.

Absolutly. I'd be suspicious of any PLAYER who didn't feel that way. I'm just saying that we as supporters shouldn't get our hopes up too high. It doesn't do anyone a service except our opponents.

You say people should live in the real world. Well in the real world beating France twice is possible.

Sure .... in global warfare. Not football.

ANYTHING is possible. Plus the fact that Henry can't play for shít outside the prem.

Well I guess it's a lucky for him that he plays for a country with quality players to spare who can cover his unproductive ass when need be. Conversely, If Duff or Robbie plays bad for us then we're pretty much outta luck from the first kick of a ball.

We'll have to agree to disagree on most/all points but here I go again. I don't agree with any of your points and I won't argue with you wether I feel the Premiership is below average or not. We're probably lucky that most of the French team play there in that case.

I wouldln't think so. Most Irish players are satisfied (nay grateful) to be in the Premiership because they see it as the pinnacle of their childhood ambitions. Conversely top French players are of a quality beyond the Premiership and rightly see it just as way of maximising their earning potential.

People go on here about me having the negative 'Irish mentality'. Well I say we Irish footy fans should stop having such a 'premiership' mentality and learn that if we are to ever develop as a footballing nation that we need to have as many of our players as possible playing in the top continental European sides and not just rotting away in the Premiershit.

1 PORTUGAL 10 7 3 0 33 7 +26 24
2 Ireland --- 10 7 3 0 23 5 +18 24
Of course there has to be a means of seperating the top two (ie.goal difference) but we did come joint top on points, Fact.

If goal difference was as insignificant as you imply then it wouldn't be calculated. So the only 'fact' of note that I see in your above paragraph is a big '2' preceeding the word Ireland.

Italy haven't won a major tournament since 1982, they have no chance in Euro 2004 now. France had never won a world cup until '98...

Even with stat's like that and without a seconds hesitation I'd put my house on Italy to win a tournment before Ireland win a qual-group again.

Point is even if they haven't won in 20 years Italy still HAVE won three world cups and euro-champ so it can't just be a fluke. No, they have a pedigree. Conversely, Ireland have won just ONE qualifying group in THEIR ENTIRE HISTORY and even that was due in no small part to dumb luck, outrageous fortune and probably a small dose divine intervention if you believe in that sort of thing.

France came bottom in their WC group, are they on par with China, Saudi Arabia, et al?

It's not the same thing. After all it takes absolutely nothing to come 4th a 4 team group whereas it takes some modicum of ability to come 3rd in a 5 team group. Plus the fact that qual-groups are 8 matches instead of 3 only reinforces their statistical reliability.

How many games did they win at the last world cup? None. Are you saying that the likes of Senegal and Uruguay are better than us. Surely you'd be joking if you said they were.

I love the way you are all harping back to Frances WC2002 group as tho it were some kind of comfort blanket to you. If it makes you feel so good then why not also live thru the bad days of France not qualifying for Euro88 and WC90+94?

It might have escaped all your attentions but France won 8 out of 8 in qualifying for Portugal and that is a stat we should more interested in than a trio of punch-drunk performances in Korea 2 years ago.

Were Holland a third rate team in 2002?

Holland were a 3rd rate team in 2000-02 and they're little better now. The difficulty they showed in their Czech-won qualifying group demonstrated as much. Plus losing 1-0 to the Scots speaks volumes.

We also have a different team than the team of 18 months.

Yes, we have a different team now. A team that is actually slightly worse than the one McCarthy left us with - both on the pitch and especially off it. The squad has been diluted to nonsense levels. We play every match like were looking for 0-0 - irregardless of the opposition. Players are 'retiring' at an unheard of rate and exiled-bullyboys (who thought it clever to secondguess the manager) and are now happily being welcomed back in from the cold in order to service their own petty agendas.

The patients are running the asylum right now as far as I'm concerned.

How on earth am I contradicting myself? Are we only allowed a maximum of 11 decent players in a squad?

You patted yourself on the back by saying we got a 0-0 against Poland despite the absence of Kilbane and then went on to say that he would be lucky if he even made the team anyway. So either it's a clear contradiction or you're suggesting Kilbane does some kind of vital job for us whilst sitting on the bench.

if ireland had a weak team i'd understand the under-dog approach but the reality is we're ranked 15th in the world or something and rightly so i think. you know as well as i do ireland can beat ANYONE on their day. but we must believe we can do it 1st.

Yes, we can currently beat anyone on 'our day' (at home, in a friendly). The problem unfortunately is that qualifying groups for WC2006 are a case of '10 days' with REAL matches and as such you'll inevitably get the final ranking you deserve when all is said and done.

Pepe LeFrits

Originally posted by PORNAPSTER
Plus the fact that Henry can't play for shít outside the prem.

Deliberately attempting to annoy people on the soccer board. Bravo.

eyerer

its more like henry has improved as a player since joining the premiership and being coached by wenger
i'm pretty sure juventus and just about any other club would gladly take him

cournioni

Originally posted by kaids
Deliberately attempting to annoy people on the soccer board. Bravo.

Just an opinion. If people can't deal with it, then they shouldn't be on the board.

Pepe LeFrits

Originally posted by PORNAPSTER
Just an opinion. If people can't deal with it, then they shouldn't be on the board.

Really? I thought it was a 'fact'.

Btw, Henry has 25 international goals and 27 champions league goals.

cournioni

Robbie Keane has 18. That is 7 goals less than Henry, with a supposed weaker team than France. And no one said it was fact. That was just your perception of what I said.

eirebhoy

Originally posted by Pigman II
If goal difference was as insignificant as you imply then it wouldn't be calculated. So the only 'fact' of note that I see in your above paragraph is a big '2' preceeding the word Ireland.

"We did come joint top on points".

Originally posted by Pigman II
Even with stat's like that and without a seconds hesitation I'd put my house on Italy to win a tournment before Ireland win a qual-group again.

Point is even if they haven't won in 20 years Italy still HAVE won three world cups and euro-champ so it can't just be a fluke. No, they have a pedigree. Conversely, Ireland have won just ONE qualifying group in THEIR ENTIRE HISTORY and even that was due in no small part to dumb luck, outrageous fortune and probably a small dose divine intervention if you believe in that sort of thing.

Where were Turkey 10 years ago? Didn't they come third in the last world cup?

Originally posted by Pigman II
I love the way you are all harping back to Frances WC2002 group as tho it were some kind of comfort blanket to you. If it makes you feel so good then why not also live thru the bad days of France not qualifying for Euro88 and WC90+94?

It might have escaped all your attentions but France won 8 out of 8 in qualifying for Portugal and that is a stat we should more interested in than a trio of punch-drunk performances in Korea 2 years ago.

You're the one going on about Ireland not winning a group since '88, how has historical fact got any relevance to whether Ireland can qualify or not? [Childish comment] You started it.[/Childish comment]

Originally posted by Pigman II
Yes, we have a different team now. A team that is actually slightly worse than the one McCarthy left us with - both on the pitch and especially off it. The squad has been diluted to nonsense levels. We play every match like were looking for 0-0 - irregardless of the opposition.

I don't think anyone in there right mind (other than you of course) would believe that we have a worse team now than the one Mick left us with. Given, Cunningham, Breen, Carr, Harte, Carsley , Kilbane, Holland, Kinsella, Robbie and Duff was Mick's first choice. You may have noticed that every one of those players (bar Carsley) are still available to Kerr but he (and most Irish fans), unsurprisingly, wouldn't even rate 4/5 of them good enough for the current team.

I'll try and take your 0-0 comment as a little sarcastic.

Originally posted by Pigman II
You patted yourself on the back by saying we got a 0-0 against Poland despite the absence of Kilbane and then went on to say that he would be lucky if he even made the team anyway. So either it's a clear contradiction or you're suggesting Kilbane does some kind of vital job for us whilst sitting on the bench.

I thought my previous reply was pretty clear but it obviously wasn't. If Kilbane was available for the Poland match he would have started. Why? Because we were missing Holland, Duff and Keane.

Pepe LeFrits

Originally posted by PORNAPSTER
Robbie Keane has 18. That is 7 goals less than Henry, with a supposed weaker team than France.

Ruud Van Nistelrooy has 14.

And no one said it was fact. That was just your perception of what I said.

Mmmhmm...

Originally posted by PORNAPSTER
Plus the fact that Henry can't play for shít outside the prem.

Anyone else of the perception that the word "fact" indicates fact?