Citizenship tourists hit maternity services - Irish Examiner

MadsL

whenever non-nationals are accounting for 25% of all births in our hospitals

Source!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Or did you read this in the Irish Sun...Post a feckin link for once.

Non-nationals again :rolleyes: when will you drop this nonsense..

whenever non-nationals are accounting for 25% of all births in our hospitals, that INEVITABLY will cause a major drain on Health-Service resources, irrespective of how much funding the Health-Service gets.

WTF??? Non-nationals have half-vulcan bodies now ???
"She appears to have an alien in her abdomen, Doctor. It's the damnest thing."
"I'm a doctor Jim, but I never saw the like..."

Non-nationals - the automatic money vacuum...

God what twaddle...


irrespective of how much funding the Health-Service gets...

It isn't. Funding is being cut. THAT is the problem. Can you NOT see that. Or does it HAVE to be these wierd non-national thingys..

bonkey

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
I feel that whenever non-nationals are accounting for 25% of all births in our hospitals, that that INEVITABLY will cause a major drain on Health-Service resources, irrespective of how much funding the Health-Service gets.

Yes, but the point is that these people are more likely to be "medical care shopping" than "citizenship shopping". Remove the ability for their kids to be Irish, and they still get free medical care etc. for their birth.

I do not deny that besides addressing a real problem,

Have you not been reading all the threads you've been participating in, where you ahve yet to show - in any reliable way other than saying "I feel" or "It is clear to me" - that this does address the problem?

But not all populist issues are malign. Some popular issues are actually correct. And dealing with this is one of them.

How is it populist to ignore the majority of those polled who say "we would have liked more time to debate this properly"?

Its populist only in that it appeals to a loud section of the community who have been vociferous in calling for change, not in that it appeals to the majority in the form offered.

jc

MadsL

http://www.rte.ie/tv/nomansland/entitlements.html

In general, asylum-seekers may apply to be put on local authority housing lists but their application will not be considered until residence is established.

Where do you get this 'free house, car, phone, etc' crap from Arcade...???

alleepally

I would love everyone to read Gene Kerrigans article in last weeks Sunday Independent. I have been undecided on this issue for some time but I have always fel that this referendum is purely designed to capitalise on the immigrant platform. Everyone talks about it. Everyone is concerened about it. It's a vote winner for Fianna Fail.

I cannot be persuaded otherwise. Good friends of mine comment about immigrants and say stuff like "oh, they get accomodation, phone calls.." etc. I always say the same thing. If they were all white like you and were all immigrants from the USA for example - would you be saying the same thing. EVERY SINGLE TIME I say that, they cannot answer it! It speaks volumes.

It's the same attitude we have to world disasters. A walkway in Paris collapses - big headlines, big news.... Mud slides in Haiti and Dominican Republic almost have an "and finally" billing. If 2,000 people were killed in California it would be THE leading news item for a couple of weeks.

Depending on the colour of a persons skin and their "economic importance" determines how we treat them in a news item and how we view them as immigrants.

Now, back to the Gene Kerrigan article. This verbalised for me a lot of my feelings and has determined the way I will vote.

http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=36&si=1187025&issue_id=10911

You'll have to register for Unison to view this but if you want, pm me and I'll forward the full article to you.

bobbyjoe

Arcadegame. Why are you using figures of non-nationals, its been noted several times that this includes a whole range of people here legitimately?
Voting yes will make absolutely no or negligible difference to the numbers on non-nationals giving birth. We’ve established that Asylum seekers are a tiny proportion of births. If we want to reduce the numbers of non-nationals giving birth why not restrict all the work permits we so generously give out. (I’m against that of course but it’s an example)

“Arcadegame:“After all your reaction to Dr.Paul Byrne's observations seems to show that had they spoken out publicly to say what the minutes of meetings with the Ministers shows they said, they would indeed be accused of "encouraging racism".

Let me get this straight.
He conducts a study into unbooked mothers.
As you see in the article above and in the study Madsl linked to that asylum seekers are a tiny .something proportion of unbooked births.
That is a fact.
Coupled with the facts that funding issues, increased population and closing maternity wards.
The conclusion then found is that it’s the asylum seekers fault.
WTF!!!
Its staring you in the face!!!!!
It’s the same as the eejit on the bus and I saw Arcadegame repeat it in another thread. Free houses cars etc. Ignorant, ill informed opinion being stated as fact even though the evidence supplied suggests the opposite.

“Arcadegame: The free housing accusation is true by the way”

You said that they get free houses in another thread. Free housing, B&B’s or Mosney, would you prefer we sent a family to live on the street. How about letting them work and support themselves.

“Arcadegame:“Maybe then the reason why the Masters of the Rotunda played down their conversations on the non-national births issue with Minister McDowell because of a fear of being accused of stirring up racism

Or maybe its because they knew it was completly untrue and was going to be used as a political football.

TwoShedsJackson

Originally posted by Hobbes


They do however have to book in advance to get seen to at the time of pregnancy.

Surely they already got a seeing to nine months previously?? ARF ARF etc.

Back on topic. arcadegame2004, I had heard about your posts previously, although this is the first time I've checked any of your threads. They were actually worse than I expected.

Reactionary rubbish with figures clearly pulled straight from your arse would actually be too kind a description of them.

My father is head of the lab in the Coombe Hospital, he says around 6% of births in the Coombe in 2003 were to non-nationals. Obviously this is anecdotal as is your 'figure', but I would tend to believe this is far closer to the real figure than 25% or even 'the majority' :rolleyes: of births.

In his letter he said it was common knowledge that Nigerian women arriving in the latter stages of pregnancy were paying £ 5,000 to an agency to come here.

Oh yeah, common knowledge to who exactly?

The increase in African patients was causing Irish patients to go to other hospitals, as they did not want to be in a minority, but were afraid to speak about it for fear of being labelled racist.

God forbid anyone would have a child in the same hospital as an AFRICAN!!!! They could have infected the whole place with their blackness!!! Ignorant racists having children, news at 11 :rolleyes:

"Anybody who says it is not happening just doesn't know what is happening," he said.

'I am right and anyone who says I amn't is wrong and ignorant of the situation. How dare you disagree with me? Did I mention I was a doctor?' :rolleyes:

MrPudding

Originally posted by Hobbes
Best one I heard (which is urban legend now), an Asylum seeker gets on the bus and can't get the babies pushchair onto the bus so she leaves it at the stop and exclaims "The government will buy me a new one".

No Hobbes seriously, my mates,mates,mates,mates, sisters,boyfriends, cousins girlfriend was actually on that bus and heard it.

I actually feel guilty, I have tried to point this out before but our friend ignored it. My GF is French and I am from NI. We had a kid in the Coombe in 2002. We actually added to the non-national birth figure. NOT the asylum seeker births the non-national births. Did you hear that arcade? Do you understand the difference? Also my little boy had his cord wrapped round his neck and wasn't breathing when he was born and ended up in the intesvive care unit for a week. So now I am super guilty, not only did we add to the non-national births but we were also a drain on the countries already tight health budget.

MrP

Victor

Originally posted by Wolfie
There is little doubt that over the last few years the majority of births dealt with in the coombe hospital have been from non-national people.

By "majority" do you mean more than 20% or more than 50%?

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
I feel that whenever non-nationals are accounting for 25% of all births in our hospitals

25% in some hospitals.

arcadegame2004

It actually states in the Jim Cusacks quoting of the minutes of the meeting between the Masters of the Rotunda Hospital and Michael Martin that the majority of the non-national births are to asylum-seekers. Dr.Paul Byrne emphasised in the Irish Examiner report that these people are not Filipino nurses of Brazilian factory workers. I have no reason to doubt his honesty.

Mr.Pudding, I know that 80% of the 25% of births that are to non-nationals in this country (including 21% outside Dublin) are to non-EU nationals, so you wouldn't be counted in those figures.

Also, I am very sorry to hear about the health problems your baby had. Hope everything's okay now.

MadsL

It actually states in the Jim Cusacks quoting of the minutes of the meeting between the Masters of the Rotunda Hospital and Michael Martin that the majority of the non-national births are to asylum-seekers.

Link? Or are you scared of linking to the stormfront site where you found this posted.
So I will...http://www.stormfront.org/archive/t-129217
Where does this article say "majority"? The only figure I can find is "This represented a rise of 19.9 per cent of all births in Dublin in 2002 to 23.9 per cent in 2003."

As I pointed out before, the three masters were complaining about social welfare payments being made at 32 weeks..

"We are writing to update you on what is currently happening in three Dublin maternity hospitals. Many women who have low-risk pregnancies are being allocated housing and given access to maternity care in areas other than Dublin.

Unfortunately, the Department of Social Welfare and the welfare officers pay women their entitlements at 32 weeks of pregnancy. This allows them to relocate to Dublin and they arrive into any of the three Dublin maternity hospitals in labour, having received no antenatal care and we have no access to important medical information such as their HIV status. This severely compromises our ability to deliver care.

"We cannot emphasise strongly enough the importance of a unified approach by the various Government departments in dealing with this problem.

"If both the Department of Justice and Department of Health recognise the difficulties of retaining many thousands of women in Dublin then the Department of Social Welfare needs to ensure that welfare payments are not being made available until after the delivery of the baby and that they can only be claimed in the region where accommodation and medical services are being provided. We hope that you will be able to do something in terms of co-ordinating the Government's approach to this problem," the letter stated.

Dr.Paul Byrne emphasised in the Irish Examiner report that these people are not Filipino nurses of Brazilian factory workers. I have no reason to doubt his honesty.

I just doubt his integrity. His report proved one thing. He stands up and says the opposite and gives not one fact or figure to back up his case.

Mr.Pudding, I know that 80% of the 25% of births that are to non-nationals in this country (including 21% outside Dublin) are to non-EU nationals, so you wouldn't be counted in those figures.

Did you pull these figures out of your hole as well. Where do these come from - 80% of the 25% (including the 21%) of the what now??? Who's included what now?

http:// that's the button you are looking for USE it!!!

Wolfie

ArcadeGame is right on the button here. I dont want to get drawn into a long drawn out debate, as I have responsibilities that take me away from boards on occasion, and am also fighting my own political battle of being banned for no good reason apart from pissing off a mod! So, I will keep this short:

What many have said here is that my friends who work in one of the hospitals in questions everyday, and see with their own eyes, and treat these patients, are talking rubbish and that they cannot be regarded as a credible source? Come on... when is the last time you NO camp do-gooders were in a maternity hospital? Sure, you probably thought it was great to see such ethnic diversity anyway... Regardless of the bottom line to the Irish economy.

You want facts? Here is the only fact you need to know and consider in this issue:

FACT : Ireland is the only country in the EU which allows automatic citizenship to a child born in this country and therefore the parents of said child get to stay - regardless of their criminal history or status. This makes Ireland a soft touch way for illegal (I am emphasising the word ILLEGAL here.. against the law chaps) immigrants to remain in Ireland, or gain entry to other EU countries. This is a loophole, a flaw, which needs fixing.

QED chaps.. QED... logic and sense should prevail! And it will prevail too.].. why? Because not one of the NO camp have a single, logical argument as to why the amendment should not go ahead.. and believe me.. I've listened to all their waffle on TV and radio about this...

Was it Winston Churchill who said that the scariest thing about democracy was that the ordinary people got to vote? Sometimes I agree with him.. but power to the people and return to us freedom!

arcadegame2004

Originally posted by MadsL
Link? Or are you scared of linking to the stormfront site where you found this posted.
So I will...http://www.stormfront.org/archive/t-129217
Where does this article say "majority"? The only figure I can find is "This represented a rise of 19.9 per cent of all births in Dublin in 2002 to 23.9 per cent in 2003."

As I pointed out before, the three masters were complaining about social welfare payments being made at 32 weeks..






I just doubt his integrity. His report proved one thing. He stands up and says the opposite and gives not one fact or figure to back up his case.





Did you pull these figures out of your hole as well. Where do these come from - 80% of the 25% (including the 21%) of the what now??? Who's included what now?

http:// that's the button you are looking for USE it!!!

But http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=9&si=1170554&issue_id=10785 is actually the origina website that this article was published on. Jim Cusack is NOT a Stormfront journalist!

MadsL

Thank for the link Arcade...now where does it say "majority" I'm having trouble seeing that word.

What many have said here is that my friends who work in one of the hospitals in questions everyday, and see with their own eyes, and treat these patients, are talking rubbish and that they cannot be regarded as a credible source?

I admit they have their point of view. However they do NOT have access to the legal residency status of their patients, and therfore cannot say that these people are illegal or legal immigrants.

In 2003, there were 22,895 births in Dublin, over a quarter were to non-national mothers. Nigerian nationals accounted for 6.6% (1,515) births, UK nationals 3% (677); Romanian 2% (469); Chinese 1% (239) and Filipino 1% (235).
Figures citied in Lobe and Osayande v Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform.

Nigeria is a country we offer asylum status to. These are not illegal imigrants. Other Nigerians may be legal settled here outside of the asylum process.

regardless of their criminal history or status.

What absolute nonsense...

The factors which the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform MUST consider before deciding to deport someone. These are listed at Section 3 (6) of the Immigration Act 1999:

(a) the age of the person;
(b) the duration of residence in the State of the person;
(c) the family and domestic circumstances of the person;
(d) the nature of the person?s connection with the State, if any;
(e) the employment (including self-employment) record of the person;
(f) the employment (including self-employment) prospects of the person;

(g) the character and conduct of the person both within and (where relevant and ascertainable) outside the State (including any criminal convictions);;

(h) humanitarian considerations.
(i) any representations duly made by or on behalf of the person;
(j) the common good; and
(k) considerations of national security and public policy

This makes Ireland a soft touch way for illegal (I am emphasising the word ILLEGAL here.. against the law chaps) immigrants

Hmm illegal UK nationals???, Romanians (Roma persecution - probably asylum cases)
Chinese (students and workers largely) Filipino (large numbers of nurses in this group)


The FACT is that the numbers just don't add up to the commonly perceived view of every non-national as somehow an illegal immigrant or abuser of the system.

The reason that "Ireland is the only country in the EU which allows automatic citizenship to a child born in this country" is the fact that the aspirations of the 1916 Proclamation were to ‘cherish all the children of the nation equally’

If this amendment is passed all the children of the nation will no longer
be equal at birth, some will be citizens and others non-nationals.

Other countries have built strong citizens of it's immigrants, allowing their children rights of citizenship based on the Jus soli principle, other EU states have used Jus sanguinis. Ireland is somewhat unique in having a joint system, which allows both those born here and those born to children of Irish emigrees to claim citizenship.

To amend one side of this in the constitution allows for the slightly bizarre rights of a US citizen to fill out an online form and claim an Irish passport like this without ever setting foot on Irish soil.
Notice that your US cousins regard holding a passport as 'a novelty' item. And also cite free medical care as one of the benefits. Welfare tourists, if you like.

Lets compare this to the foreign citizens who have fled torture in some cases, often risking their lives to reach here. I suggest you read Amnesty International's latest report on Nigeria

In case you think these people are not reaching Ireland, the Centre for the Care of Survivors of Torture (CCST) in Dublin has treated more than 650 individuals so far this year. Of these, 67 per cent originated in Africa.

These peoples' children, if this law is passed, will not have 'the novelty' of an Irish passport. They may not even have the protection of their parents.

Pass this amendment if you wish, if it makes you feel somehow 'safer'. I just hope you can read the Proclaimation with a clear conscience afterward?' and read it alongside another proclaimation so much part of this nation's history...

Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed, to me:
I lift my lamp beside the golden door.

Now how will you vote...

arcadegame2004

If this amendment is passed all the children of the nation will no longer be equal at birth..

I disagree. I do not consider the children of asylum-seekers to be children of the nation. I consider the children of Irish people to be the children of the nation.

Regarding your point MadsL on Nigeria, I reply that even so, asylum-seekers from their should claim asylum in the FIRST EU country of entry. Which isn't Ireland. I will not be moved from this position.

MadsL

I consider the children of Irish people to be the children of the nation.

So, think carefully Arcade, what nationality is my daughter? She's seven. Born in Holles St.

MadsL

---

article

---

The proposed changes to the constitution in the citizenship referendum will fuel the fires of racism, a group of doctors warned today.

The doctors claimed it was morally disgraceful that the Government had failed to use the State’s booming economy over the last decade to improve public services.

They also accused the Government of attempting to deflect anger away from the real issues of the lack of funding in the health sector.

Dr Juliet Bressan said: “The Government has now clearly tried to scapegoat women and their children for the failures of the Celtic Tiger to address poverty, housing and health care in Ireland.”

Doctors presented a letter, due to be published in the medical news later this week, urging health care workers to support patients and calling for a 'no' vote in the referendum.

On June 11 voters will decide on whether to change the constitution to prevent people from claiming Irish citizenship solely on the basis of giving birth to a child in Ireland.

The letter was signed by 30 doctors, including GPs and consultants from around the country, Mayo TD Dr Jerry Cowley and Senator Mary Henry.

Senator Henry called for a thorough review of immigration and refugee policies.

She said: “There are so many problems in this area that to start with this one is quite incredible.

“I hope very much that this referendum will not be carried because this is just another small effort at decreasing the democracy of this country.”

She added that while Justice Minister Michael McDowell was not racist, the referendum was fanning the flames of racism around the country.

Dr Austin O’Carroll, a GP from north inner city Dublin who cares for several hundred non-national patients said the Government was scaremongering.

He said: “This unnecessary referendum has lead to the stigmatisation of our patients.

“The Government campaign has been inhumane in its affect and there has been a total lack of empathy with the people who will be affected by this measure,” he said.

Dr O’Carroll added: “The arguments so far will only lead to increased suffering by our patients, a most human and warm group of people.”

Hobbes

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
I disagree. I do not consider the children of asylum-seekers to be children of the nation. I consider the children of Irish people to be the children of the nation.

Only one Asylum seeker has to have been approved to stay here and the child becomes Irish (at the time of birth).

So shoots that down doesn't it.

arcadegame2004

Dr.Jerry Cowley, Independent TD. Senator Mary Henry, FG. Hmmm... I sense political point-scoring.

RainyDay

Originally posted by Hobbes
Best one I heard (which is urban legend now), an Asylum seeker gets on the bus and can't get the babies pushchair onto the bus so she leaves it at the stop and exclaims "The government will buy me a new one".

You got it all wrong, Hobbes. it was a taxi, not a bus. And while it hadn't actually happened to the taxi driver who told me about it, it had happened to his best mate taxi driver, so it just has to be true. :rolleyes:

MadsL

I sense political point-scoring.

So one doctor who's actual study reaches far different conclusions, whose colleagues in the study 'distance' themselves from his statements, hits the nail on the head as far as you are concerned. 30 doctors are just political points scoring. Really?

Arcade, listen. You are being conned. The Health Service is in crisis, but minorities will ALWAYS be blamed for the problems inherent in the political system.

Lets take a few recent examples. Teenage mothers getting pregnant to jump housing queues. The reality was less than one in five got housing.

Gay men were largely 'to blame' according to the media for the AIDS/Hep/Syph 'crisis', and vicitimised and discriminated against legally and socially. Now we have these 'complicated African diseases', guess what they are AIDS/Hep/Syph - do you want the same untruths and discrimination happening?

The media has pumped and pumped the 'refugee crisis' to the point where we actually believe all the tosh that they come out with. The facts simply do not add up.

So, Arcade. My question is simple - what nationality is my daughter, she was born in Holles St?