tough decision!

cormie

Just back from cash game in mates house. It was generally a really aggressive game as one guy (Mark) was just raising all the time. Anyway, I was dealt A 10. Mark was under the gun and raised 60 units (5c per unit, blinds 2+4). I called, so did my brother who is a good player and doesn't go in on stupid bets, and so did another guy who is quite a gambler (John). Flop comes A 10 7 (2 diamonds) Mark raises big again, so I call him all in, then my brother goes all in with about 550 units (calling the all in for Mark and going all in with his remaining chips, another 323 on top of my all in for Mark) John calls (he only had about 200)(my bro and I are chip leaders within this hand, I have the most) so Mark and John are all in. There are about 1300 units in the pot already. I was confident that Mark had an Ace, with a good kicker and that John was probably waiting on a diamond. I wasn't sure about my brother though. I thought about it for ages. Thinking that since I was 90% sure Mark Had an ace, and that my brother either had A 10 or 77. That it would be split pot if he had A 10 and if he had 77, I would be waiting on 3 cards since Mark and I had an ace, and I had a 10, so 1 ace or 2 10's. There was also the chance that Mark could hit his kicker, and that the diamond could come. I wasn't too worried about either. I was about to go for it because pot odds and the sheer amount in the pot. Until I looked at my brother and he didn't look interested at all. This just made me automatically think he had 7's. This is after about 5 mins thinking about all the possibilities. Maybe I acted too quickly at that point but I folded. My brother flipped A 7, John 2 diamonds and Mark A Q. I was shocked. I couldn't believe my brother called 60 pre flop with me calling 60 before him with A 7 suited. And I especially didn't think he would then go all in after me calling Mark all in. He is not that type of player which is why I folded. The next two cards were no help to any of them. I would have won a pot of about €80 with A 10. I couldn't believe it. However I do think it was a good move to fold. THAT... REALLY... PEED... ME... OFF!!!!! haha.

Hyzepher

ummm - let me ask you this - what would you have to have had to call if you folded top 2 pair off the flop?

Hyzepher

Lafortezza

play aces or kings in the big blind only, wait til every folds to you, including the small blind, then go all in... you're sure to win.

You hit top 2 pair on the flop you should be praying for people to bet into you, all in no matter what!

cormie

hyzepher, I don't understand your question?

Luke, as I said, Mark was raising all the time, 60 was a considerably larger bet then his usual, he was before me, I had A 10 so I just called, and so did my brother and John pre flop. Again, there is NO WAY I thought my brother would have called with me calling with A 7. I was sure he either had A 10 or 77. I've seen him play online and I have a fair idea what he folds and calls. He said after the hand that he didn't even realise that he was all in for that much on top of Marks all in. So I think it was his risk taking and "bad play?" that made me fold. Arghhh. I'm still so annoyed.

PHB

Ok ask yourself this question, calling the bet pre flop, what in the hell did you hope to hit for you to play that hand?

A 10 is exactly what you're looking for right?

If you were only gona call all in with a full house then you should have not played it or played any old **** hand.

DeVore

with three all in calls before you act, 2 pair isnt all that strong a hand to go charging in on. I think there was some bad play from the others personally, over betting their hands. You're put-down isnt the worst play I've seen by a country mile, in the long run two-pair in that situation will lose you money. I wouldnt beat yourself up about it.

DeV.

careca

Have to agree with the boys cormie, I think you played it poorly. When you played preflop you must have been praying for A10 to flop. And even if you did put your brother on 77 you were pot committed at that stage. For another 323 you had to call. Still as I said on an earlier post, hindsight is wonderful and if your brother had 77 we would all be saying, great read and lay down.

span

maybe your brother hustled you out of the pot.

DeVore

oh and ignore the people saying you have to bet that. PHB shame on you... post flop he has a TON of new information to process. There are 3.. count them, *3* all in's before him. What do you think they are all playing on? What is the last of them going all in on when looking at 2 all-ins before him.

In this case he was wrong, on another night he could be right. Saying that someone should blindly bet regardless of what the others do is playing poker robotically. You just cant play by rote like that, you have to consider all the information you have.

If someone cant put down a hand because "its toooo preeeeetty" then you might as well stop now and play snap. There is NO hand that cant be put down except the stone cold nuts.

I cant believe you guys wouldnt considering dropping two pair in that situation. Let me turn the question around: In what situation WOULD you consider dropping two pair? How many All-in's before you would it take?!

DeV.

DeVore

Originally posted by careca
Have to agree with the boys cormie, I think you played it poorly. When you played preflop you must have been praying for A10 to flop. And even if you did put your brother on 77 you were pot committed at that stage.

Ah jaysis Careca, thats dreadful logic! lol
The non-poker phrase for that kind of play is "good money after bad"!

If he was going to play like that (ie: blindly bet regardless of what his opponents do after the flop) he should have gone all in on the flop! I mean its the same thing...and he might have scared them off!

I cant believe people are saying "ignore the post flop all-ins... you've hit your pair man, you *have* to bet!"


Its up there with "I'm behind... "<said while calling> and "think of the value!"

DeV.

karlh

surely you would HAVE to put at least one person on trip 10s or 7s in that situation.

good put down and no arguing from me. if they're playing like that in tournaments, get on a table with them, sit there and wait for your money!

bring them to the fitz!

cormie

Thanks Dev. I have to agree with Dev, because its obviously what I did. I think I made the right move. I was equally disappointed to see that the next 2 cards wouldn't have helped anyone as I was seeing my bro flip A 7. I think if I did call, I wouldn't have been that certain of a win. What's a good place to test this?

I tested it on twodimes.net/poker and results were:
With cards the way they were:
ah td
jd 4d
as qc
ac 7h

with that flop my ah td would have been 49.15% to win. Diamonds taking 34%, 8% for AQ and 7% for a7.

If my brother had the 7's:
ah td
jd 4d
as qc
7c 7h

my a 10 would have won 13% of the time, trips 54% and diamonds 31%.

Now it's not really working right but I think it's meaning to say if my brother had A 10 also, that it would be a 50/50 chance of a split pot.

cormie

I knew nobody had them because there were 2 gone and I knew what they had except for my brother. So I read them well except my brother. I also knew that Mark would call my re-raise of all in for mark. And I kinda felt that John would go in too. Calling 60 pre flop he probably wouldn't lay down an all in of double what he had put in.

PHB

Yeah but Dev you had that information pre flop aswell.

You've got a big raise off the start
You now have to choice to call/fold/raise

You aren't gona raise with a-10 cause you figured you were at least kickered right, or you suspected he was just pushing people around and wanted to see the flop
So you can now either call or fold.

If you call, and you think you are kickered, and the only thing you're hoping for is to hit a 10.

Then you get a ****load of info after that, you get two callers.
Neither of them raise.

The fact that people didn't raise after the inital raise shows that they had good not great hands, I'm talking about pocket pairs, a-q a-j a-10, maybe kqs if they are stupid.

So what are you looking to hit?
You think with four callers at least one of them probably has an ace which out kickers yourself, cause thats how people play.

You get your flop

A - 10 - 7(2 Diamonds)

Your man who is probably bluffing raises instantly, cause if you bet pre flop you should bet post flop no matter what really

You call(although I might have raised to scare off the flush draw but whatever)

You get an all in for 323 behind yourself
You get a call for 200
another called

At this stage in the pot, theres
60*4 = 240
Then 323 + 200 + 323 right?
Which gives ya total of

1086

Plus the raise and call that the guy before ya did, which I'd guess was about 60-100

So all you need to call is about 200 right?

When theres about 1300 in the pot


Thats giving you a 1/6 chance in order for you to call and play that properly.

So you figure maybe one of them is on a diamond draw chancing their arm, 1/3 chance of that.

You figure one of them has an ace with a better kicker, chance of em hitting that is 7% right?

and you put your bro on a-10 or 7's
His tell regretably makes it look like he has a good hand and is uninterested but two pair's a pretty good hand, but obviously you're going to be worried about the 7's.

For 200 more I woulda called it.

It wasn't a bad laydown, anyone can see where you're coming from, but if you're playing a cash game(which I think you were) it was definally worth your while to call.

Then again, nobody ever analyses their hands this much so its kinda easy to look back with hindsight

The point is that while two pair is a putdownable hand, with your pot odds and you're fairly good chances.

My question is this, if the flop came 10 10 7 would you have called?
with four all in's before you?

You're going to be putting them on the 7's right?

If the flop came down a - a - x
If you get an all in call,
You're going to be thinking that they have a kicker?

My main point is that A-T isn't a good hand in the first place
The point is not that you laid it down incorrectly, its asking what would you have called with in the first place?

Lafortezza

Originally posted by PHB
odds, %'s, lots of sensible talk

I would have just called because even though I was probably behind, you have to think of the value....

The only thing you were really behind was trip 7's, and you still had out to the house, if unlikely. You were ahead of any other hands A7, AK, flush draw, except an absolute monster like trip aces.

Hyzepher

Firstly i am assuming that this is a cash game and you can buy back in.

In that case you need to call. You have a decent hand (top 2 pair), you have great pot odds, you have info pre-flop (a raise and 3 callers - no reraises).

In a tournament scenario - your fold was a good lay down despite what the outcome would have been. In cash games its all about the odds coupled with the implied strength of your hand.

Hyzepher

MrPudding

Originally posted by PHB
Then again, nobody ever analyses their hands this much so its kinda easy to look back with hindsight

**Cough** Pudding looks at Dev.

careca

Sorry, sticking to my guns. Would have called cash game or tournie. I would easily put down two pair but not top two pair. Maybe I'll learn the hard way. And I wouldn;t have been that upset that no-one hit their cards on the turn or river, because these things happen all the time. you just want to be ahead when the cards are shown.

I will say one thing, good analysis Cormie. Definetly something I need to do more off.

And I do play the Fitz !!

PHB, will comment on your post when I have it read. Probably tuesday week!!! Do you have any work to do????????

cormie

You would have to have been there. Mark would go all in with A 6 off. I knew on the flop he had a good kicker though, don't forget, I did call Mark all in after he raised again. Pot odds were very tempting, that's why I took so long. Plus the fact they were rushing me, except for my brother, he didn't say a thing. He wouldn't.

I think allot of you tend to go by the book. A 10 isn't good etc. The quality of your hand really depends on the people you are playing with. I didn't put mark on A with great kicker pre flop (I just knew he probably had an Ace). Just on the flop.

DeVore

Originally posted by MrPudding
**Cough** Pudding looks at Dev.

Er... yeah... I was about to say! errrrr....what do you guys think I do when I go into my cosy tank? I'm not thinking about womens chests like La Fortezza is you know!! LOL!

I cant understand people who *dont* analyse hands like that... I dont always follow the odds but at least I *know* I'm gambling
There are many situations where I already have the pre-thought-out answer... runner-runner flush draws for example, I mean noone needs to think about those.

However, how players like La Fortezza and others can play without knowing the odds amazes me. In the long run they'll probably make better players too, as they can read books on odds and have it beaten into them but reading people is a lot hard to learn (though I've started to do it a little).

Seriously though, I mean, I'm not studying the backs of my cards when I'm in the tank you know hahahah...

DeV.

PHB

I'll have you know I'm a college student who has just finished his exams with 4 months off with the government paying for college, ain't life great :P


Reading people is something that is really hard to learn.

I can tell when people are disinterested, I can tell when they are agitated, I can tell when they are being forceful, but the obvious thing like forceful - bluffing never works out for me, so I don't rate reading much :P

What I can do is put you on exact hands based on the way you bet and what type of player you are.

I play with my mates from school who have no real idea what they are doing cept a couple of them who can read people, they get scared when I put them on exact hole cards with exact suits :P

cormie

I think this is the most important aspect of hold'em. What irritates me about the Fitzwilliam, is if you take a while to think about a bet and are looking at the player everyone at the table will show a lack of patience and somebody nearly always says something and rushes you. I remember playing a cash game and I was raised all in. I took about a 48 seconds and then some guy went mad at me "for f*ck sake, hurry up! It's not that hard, you put in so much so put in the rest (yeah, great theory that mate) you always take ages, for f*ck sake, la la lalala blah blah" pretty annoying. It's very important to know the odds, but it's also very important to know your opponents.

Marq

Originally posted by PHB
Reading people is something that is really hard to learn.

Unless of course, the person to be read is you PHB, in which case it's easy as pie.

right now you're holding.....King Deuce

DeVore

if you take a while to think about a bet and are looking at the player everyone at the table will show a lack of patience and somebody nearly always says something and rushes you.

Ok, now whatever about poker, this is something I know a lot about

Norman has been a terrific (unwitting) coach in this. One night I spent 5 hours to his left and as the lads will tell you he and I tear lumps out of each other. He gets greatly upset when I go in the tank and has started to call "clock" the very moment its my turn to act.

What you MUST do is take longer. Always. If they call clock, then take the FULL 60 seconds. If they complain bitterly make blithe statements that will enrage them like "I'm entitled to think" etc... Play deliberately slower even when its obvious what to do. In short... p|ss them RIGHT off. You should be as calm as a hindu cow while letting their frustration build.

Remember, anything that puts them on tilt or makes them think about anything but the odds and the cards and the betting is a GOOD THING for you.

It sounds like I'm being an assh*le but poker is about more then cards and they are trying to put you off your game by rushing you... turn about is fair play!!
You think its fair that I have to play though a torrent of abuse from Norman? Even at last nights game when he was dealing for my table, spectating the final table etc etc... You need to care nothing for these people and be selfish. Its your turn, your chips and your cards. Fnck them, let them put the clock on you... its their perogative... its yours to use it to its full.

DeV.

careca

I'd agree DeV. It can be intimidating though when the dealer does it. "Up to you mate", "your turn mate", "2000 to you mate". One of these nights I'll just say "Ya, I've been playing for a while now mate, and I know when its my F*&KING turn." You'll know the night because big Joe McNally (doorman) will have my hand around my neck as he is throwing me out the door.

mewso

Yeah some of the dealers are moody gits.

As to this big long discussion on a play. I'm happy to leave a home game decision to the home game player. He knows his buddys. It's in a live casino situation that discussion becomes more relevent.

Lafortezza

Re: the taking your time thing...

It totally depends on the decision you have to make. If you have a marginal call and are calculating the pot odds and hand odds (or thinking about boobs like me, odds is a load of rubbish ) then take as long as you like.

But if you have a straight forward decision that you pretty much already know the answer to then why hold up the table, even if it will make people annoyed and put them on tilt. There's fair play/sportsmanship as well as mind games to be considered here too...
There's lots of ways to act the bollix at the poker table, all of which will put your opponents off their usual game, you can splash the pot, talk trash, fold/act out of turn, but it means people will see you as a prick at the poker table....

If you are deciding to call the big blind pre-flop, how long does it take to consider the value of your starting cards? Fold 73, call QJ, raise KK. Every other hand is just a sliding scale depending on the table's play, your stack and one or two other factors. It doesn't take 15+ seconds to decide.

If you take more than that then you're acting the prick unless you've a tough decision to make like calling 2 all-ins with AJ offsuit.

Sometimes people have a valid reason to suggest you hurry up a bit or to call Clock on you.

DeVore

true but what I'm talking about is people who are unfairly using it as a tactic... like Norman putting the clock on me the very second its my turn. If people start that **** with me I wont let it get to me but they are declaring such tactics "in play!".

I took two minutes over 82o just so that the blinds would go up for Normans turn and I showed him the cards too. Its not my preferred way of playing but if someone is going to start bullying me into making snap = poor decisions then I'll drive them round the bend with my antics if they want to get into that!

You've all played with me, I dont go in the tank unless I genuinely have something to think about. I cant abide selfish players who harrass others simply because they (almost invariably) arent in this hand and want to get onto the next pair of hole cards for themselves. Or who want to harrass you to get you flustered.

If those tactics come into play then I feel completely entitled to drive them bonkers.
I'm a reactionary stubborn bollox at times

DeV.

cormie

he is obviously the prick at the table. haha. You can even tell by the look of him, he looks so angry. All the time. You can tell allot about somebody just by the look in their eyes (not just in poker, in life) That was a nice move waiting so he'd get stung by the blind raise. It's kinda mean though. Would you do that to lil oul innocent me or just the likes of Norman? I agree with Luke. It's just courtesy to not make them wait all the time. I personally don't have a problem with it. I love it. It gives me time to look at yourself, and everyone else at the table. Keep it up! split the winnigs;)

Lafortezza

But by doing it against Norman, you're actually pissing off the whole table, not just the muppet who calls clock on you every time the action is on you.

DeV, the time you took 2 mins over folding the 8-2 just to 'get' Norman, did the rest of the table see the cards, or realise what you were at? Feel free to trash talk Norman but you shouldn't do anything that will bug the rest of the table.

As for norman, i love being at the same table as him. He's entertaining to a certain extent and I've been at his table enough times to know, kinda, how he bets and that he will raise with any two cards. I've also picked up on a half-tell on him when he actually has a monster/good hand.

If someone is being enough of a bollix at a table that you are trying to "get at" them then you should be able to say it to the dealer/Luke and get the problem solved. No need to stoop to their level. You're putting yourself on tilt in away if you react and change your normal table manner.

imo

DeVore

Ah actually Norm's one of the good guys. Its just that he plays rough and for keeps. Thats fine by me so long as I know where I am with you I dont mind.
I wouldnt (and dont) play like that with people in general but you have to fight fire with fire....

Let me make this clear though, just so there's no confusion... I'd bully my own mother off a pot in a game. In any game if you play less then your best you hand your opponent an insult. Psychological play is part of poker, as is mental strength and discipline. I prefer to play without restorting to such tactics but I have been p|ssing people off for years so if thats the way they want to play........

DeV.