Diver Missing

Anemone

Conferring with the Coast Guard & RNLI on this is definately a good idea. I would also be in favour of asking CFT, CMAS, BSAC & PADI for thier opinions, but I'm not sure I would want them to have any direct involvement in planning or control of the project. It's not that I have anything against them, but I think you could end up with a too-many-cooks situation. A project committee made up from representatives of a range of organisations would probably take forever to reach consensus and the result would probably be a compromise. There's a danger of over-engineering (or at least over-planning) this project. It's a fairly simple concept, and can probably be put together fairly quickly, once the opinions of interested parties have been gathered. I also think there's merit in keeping it organisation-neutral. We don't want CFT divers saying "that's a PADI thing, it's not for me" or vice-versa.

Your point about following up reports to get any missing information is a good idea. If this thing is to be run on a non-profit basis, getting the time to do that (if there's a large volume of reports) might be an issue. But I guess we could cross that bridge if we come to it. Allowing people to post anonymously is key to getting them to participate in this, so I think filling-in follow-up contact details should be optional. The problem with this is that a lot of people will choose to remain anonymous, and there will be no contact details available for follow-up. The only way I can think of getting around this is to promise posters that any contact details they give will be kept confidential. It would be difficult to make this an absolute promise though, as it might be possible for third parties to legally compel us to reveal contact details that we have.

Apache01

Completely agree that the board must be anonymous, and that involving too many organisations leads to difficulties, I would like to see this board completely organisation free, us apaches only have one chief for this very reason, to many chiefs and not enough Indians and nothing gets done.

IMHO I think we should just make the thing up and then inform the various dive organisations that it exists weather they endorse it or not will up to them. But I would envision divers using the board as a way of learning no mater who they were trained by, the last thing I want is for the age old CMAS, BSAC, PADI argument to flare up, hence why only posts describing incidents should be allowed, this will not be an open forum to discuss, just to post.

If it is any help I can obtain some statistics from the Coast Guard and RNLI about diver related incidents in Ireland, It may also be worth checking with the chamber in Galway for any numbers they could provide. These figurers could be quoted in an open invitation to all divers in all organisations and dive clubs around the country to take part.

I don't think following up divers for more information is a good idea unless a moderator is appointed that reviews each post discusses the incidents with the writer on a confidential basis and then when satisfied, posts the report on the board, but this is a lot of work and responsibility.

Peace I am trying to find some suppliers and costs for the day and night signal not sure if flares can be posted, will post findings soon.

Apache

Apache01

Hi,

just trawling through the RNLI site and came across this news clip on missing divers

Apache

dublinbay

First casualty of war is.......the truth. How many of you are bad divers? Careless divers? Dangerous divers? Inconsiderate divers? etc etc??? None, didnt think so:)
Lets ask all the divers in Ireland the same questions:) Guess the answer.............
Dive incident reports from the diver involved , imho, are not 100% accurate. Dive incident reports from the cox/d.o./skipper again imho, are not 100% accurate.
Every diver I have met without exception, deep down thinks he/she has it sussed.
Its usually someone else at fault or ****ty kit that shouldnt have salt deposits on it even tho I dont bother to rinse it in fresh water

While I think your idea is a very good one, it will be open to misuse. Leave it to the Pro`s the RNLI/ COASTGUARD to correlate info. I`m sure if asked they will gladly pass it on:

Evil Phil

Originally posted by dublinbay
While I think your idea is a very good one, it will be open to misuse. Leave it to the Pro`s the RNLI/ COASTGUARD to correlate info. I`m sure if asked they will gladly pass it on:

I agree with Jack here and it follows on from my point above. Unless this is being done with these people then I have doubts as to how effective it will be. Tbh, I would only report incidents to these bodies. The website won't work unless they're involved. Who would analyse the data if not them?

Anemone

I think that incident reports which are not fully truthful or which contain subjective analysis of why the incident happened are going to happen with any reporting system, not just with the one I am proposing. Reports which are not 100% objective & truthful are still valuable. Lessons can still be learnt from them. I am hoping that a combination of anonymity, dive organisation neutrality and an understanding that the reporting system is there to improve diver safety for all, will encourage posters to be fairly truthful in their incident reports. I know it won’t guarantee this, but it should help.

Regarding leaving it to the RNLI, Coastguard etc. to carry out this function, I don't see much evidence that they are doing this, and certainly not in a diver-focused way. I'm not criticising them for this, because I guess they don't see it as their role, which is fair enough. They may collect some information about the circumstances of each incident, but I don't think they gather detailed diving related info. While they may provide some periodic summary data about incidents, I don't think they make the details of incidents available to the public. What I am proposing to do is provide the raw and (somewhat) unvarnished details of each incident, so that any interested party can carry out their own analysis, or draw their own conclusions. I think the proposed system could well be useful to RNLI, Coastguard etc. as a store of information that they can make analytical use of.

To reiterate what I said earlier, I am in favour of getting the input of these bodies when setting up the system, and I would give serious consideration to any suggestions or requests they make. I'd be delighted if they want to get involved, but I see no reason to leave it to them to implement a diving-specific system when they have a much broader mandate.

Phil, you mentioned that you would only report incidents to these bodies. Do you mind if I ask why?

Evil Phil

Because I don't see any value in reporting to any organisation outside of those involved in diving/rescue. A knowledge-base like this one won't work outside of those organisations because the information gathered will be shaky at best and the analysis will be inaccurate and contradictory. The analysis on this thread of a diver going missing is a prime example of that. Nobody has mentioned who will be doing the analysis and what they'll hope to achieve exactly. Nobody has mentioned funding either. Unless you receive funding it will never be more than an amateur effort: well meant but inadequate.

To achieve this, IMO, you'd need so regisiter a charity to provide funding, get the RNLI/Coastgaurd and various dive bodies to work on it with you and dedicate some permanent staff to it. Staff with the right qualifications and experience. Thats a hell of an undertaking to get yourself off the ground.

Anemone

I'm not proposing that any analysis be carried out on the incident reports, on the site in question. It would simply be a list of incidents (categorised under various headings for easy retrieval) with the full text of each report available for anybody to read. Before being made available on the site, submitted reports would be reviewed and possibly edited. The only reason for this kind of review and edit process would be to re-word anything which might identify the people or places involved, and to weed out anything that might expose the site operator to legal liability. No analysis or comment would be added to the reports by the reviewer, and the public would have no means on the site to discuss / comment / analyse the reports.

All I'm trying to do here is provide a place where detailed incident reports can be made available to the diving community (& general public). Others can analyse the reports if they wish, but that's outside the scope of the proposed site.

Given that there would be no analysis going on, and I wouldn't expect more than 2 or 3 incidents a week for review (maybe I'm naive), I can't see the need for permanent staff. I mean, what would they be required to do?

On the subject of funding. I work as a web developer and I own & run a web server which provides hosting to my clients. I'm willing to give my time freely to develop the site (not a huge job) and provide it with free hosting, and to review the reports. If anybody else on this board wants to share the load of reviewing reports and/or publicising it with dive organisations and groups, that would be great. Unless it gets very busy, I can't see the need for big funding.

Some of the information in the reports may be 'shaky', but still somewhat useful IMHO. So far as I can see, nobody else is making it available in a publically accessible central archive, despite the fact that the general consensus (amongst dive orgs) seems to be that incident reports are useful things to have. If making this information generally available saves one life or prevents a serious injury, isn't it worth doing?

Apache01

Phil,

Here are a few questions for you:

Have you ever reported an incident to the RNLI or Coast Guard?
Have you ever read the annual reports published by the RNLI or Coast Guard?

These organisations provide a vital service to everyone connected to the sea and inland waterways, but they do not analyse why incidents happen, this is the role of the Marine Casualty Investigations Board and the Health and Safety Authority . It is interesting to note that diving related incidents are investigated by the HSA and not the MCIB.

The reports published by the RNLI and Coast Guard relate to statistics detailing the number of callouts for various vessels and casualties but the information provided is non-specific.

We are not suggesting an investigating board or any type of analysis of incidents and I think incident is the key word here. Accidents are investigated by the professionals as Dublinbay suggests.

There are lots of incidents that happen on dives that divers can share and while typing the report also reflect on their actions at the time. These include reel tangles, SMB inflation, gear failures, reg freeflows, lost buddies, these things happen to many if not all divers from time to time and although they are resolved safely they are never reported to anyone.

A board were these types of incidents can be posted and reflected upon would IMHO be a valuable learning tool. Also knowing that once posted you are not going to get bashed by the chosen few divers who know it all and never had anything go wrong would be a reassuring comfort.

Apache

Evil Phil

Have you ever reported an incident to the RNLI or Coast Guard?
No
Have you ever read the annual reports published by the RNLI or Coast Guard?
Again no

And I don't think I'm the only one. Although I don't see the relevance of the questions, I'm not passing myself off as having any knowledge of search and rescue techniques or those responsible for carrying them out, I stating why I don't think this site would be a great success. It seems I stand slightly corrected. Please re-read my posts and replace with the relevant names and you'll get my point.

Perhaps I've read to much into this, I thought the idea was to gather information and use it to help improve diver safety. If its simply an online log of incidents then yes, it might be helpful in that you can read about how somebody dealt with a certain issue on a dive. If its a system where people can comment on an incident log then its not something I'd have any interest in because, as apache said, it will be simply be reduced to pontification from a few divers.

silverside

In the UK all serious diving incidents must be reported to BSAC (British Sub Aqua Club), the event descriptions are then printed in the Diver Magazine so that lessons can be learnt by all.

Does this not happen in Ireland also?

Anemone

Originally posted by silverside
In the UK all serious diving incidents must be reported to BSAC ...

That's not a statutory requirement, is it? I mean, British PADI or SSAC divers don't have to report incidents to BSAC do they?

Borzoi

Without going in to the 'reporting incidents' debate, this has raised a few issues with regards to diver safety and what to do/not to do. While the courses (though I only know PADI) are very thorough about safety, what to do on the surface if lost stranded and the level of kit required for offshore diving don't seem to be addressed sufficiently.

The original story and subsequent observations, has certainly made me rethink what to do and what to carry.

Apache01

I don't see the relevance of the questions

Sorry Phil,

My point is that there is very little information available on diver related incidents and accidents in Ireland and although the RNLI and the Coast Guard do publish non-specific details relating to the number of callouts they have had over a particular year, many incidents go unreported. A reporting board could allow these incidents to be published and learned from. It could also offer advice on how to report and who to report accidents and incidents to.

Sorry if this thread has gone too far, diving is becoming a very popular sport in Ireland and the issue of safety should always be impressed upon those taking up the sport, the reporting log would remind divers that incidents occur more frequently than thought and may also help combat complacency which can all too easily set in, better reading about someone else’s bad experience and then thinking about how to avoid a similar situation. I have noticed a few divers posting here rethinking their kit and precautions to take when diving in a tidal area. I think the system has proven its point already when these posts are read.

Apache

Peace

As was mentioned previously Divernet post news items that are often in regard to diver incidents... missing, dead, bends etc etc...

If you are setting up a board which only deals with diver incidents its going to be pretty quiet as the only reason someone would have to go up there would be if something had happened to them.... www.thedecostop.com is a message board site solely dedicated to diving and it has a seperate board for what you are talking about. Granted its built by Americans and therefore, wherter they intended it or not, very American (if you know what i mean). Lots of DIR divers spouting on about how everyone else is doing it like a stroke and going to die soon...I digress...

Honestly, its taken this board over a year to develop into having 5/6 regular posters with about 10 people who lurk about reading and not post (yes i've seen you all )... and this board is on a boards site with i dunno how many users...LOTS.

I'm not saying do it or don't do it.... and if i had a dive incident (which i wanted to share) i'd probably post up here first... but thats just beacause i'm a regular user.

Anemone

Peace, thanks for the interesting US link. You might be right. We may get very few incident reports on the proposed system. But its probably worth trying anyway, just to see if it turns out to be useful. I guess we can do our best to publicise it with clubs, magazines and dive organisations, and see what happens from there.

Evil Phil

There is a Yahoo group for Irish Diving. I can't remember the name and can't access my personal email from work so I'll give it to you this evening, unless somebody else has it. Try them as well.

NordicDiver

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dir-ireland

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dis-ireland

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/irishdiving

dublinbay

OK guys, CFT get regular incident reports and have an appointed officer to sift thru and report on said incidents..............having said that, how do you accept
1; the incident report is accurate?
2; if not accurate, how do we learn from same?
3; if not accurate, why bother posting/reporting?
2 yrs back, 5 divers and a coxn had a dive. Group of 2 and a group of 3. Group with 2 deployed DSMB ,got tangled and had a rapid ascent to surface. Group of 3 were back on boat. Group of 2 put on 02 as precaution. All ok so far?
When 02 cylinder was noted to be changed on boat the following week, one of the divers in G2 was asked why it was so....he replied ***** and **** had a rapid ascent" Hmmmmmm This was put to the coxn but without mentioning names. Coxn replied "yeah there was a rapid ascent, **** and *** shot to the surface" The 2 divers ,one an instructor and the other a rescue diver, lied 100% about what happened and tried to blame OTHER divers who had assisted and administered 02 to them!!!!!
WHY??????? Because in this macho world of diving no- one makes mistakes ! Its like the air thing: I dive twin 7`s cause I dont use air .............So what happens when your buddy has an OOA at 30m -40m and the stress levels go thru the roof and your twin 7`s are drained in 3 mins flat and your world turns into a cluster****?
Yes, your idea is VERY good, IF ppl report honestly. Its not going to happen.......

Apache01

Originally posted by Peace
I did some google'ing but came up with not much... Cost/Places to buy?

<snip/>

Sorry but its advertising and if we let you do it we have to let everybody do it. I'll send you a pm about this.

E.P.

www.diveology.com

Evil Phil

Apache I've sent that pm < smiley of everythings coolness

Apache01

Phil,

Your point is noted, but I do not agree with it. Was only doing what many other people do on this board everyday and that is post answers to people’s questions.

Maybe you should edit every post which has a link to an online dive shop


Apache

GlennaMaddy

I've been looking for an EPIRB and have not had much luck with the usual dive shops in Dublin. Apache's feedback could be considred 'advertisitng' if there were several EPIRB suppliers, since there does'nt appear to be his feedback should be read in the context of information sharing.

Apache, thanks for the link!

Evil Phil

Originally posted by Apache
Phil,

Your point is noted, but I do not agree with it. Was only doing what many other people do on this board everyday and that is post answers to people’s questions.

Maybe you should edit every post which has a link to an online dive shop


Apache

These rules are across boards.ie, there not just mine. Myself and daveg had to ask the Admins to turn a blind eye to what is allowable on this board. I will not edit every post that has a link to an online dive shop but if those shops come and advertise I will edit those posts as I always have. The board is a community, not a marketing tool for you and your company. If you don't agree with that then go somewhere else.

Diveology have been a constant problem on this board, all the other dive operators needed only one warning at most.

Advertise again outside of the charter rules and I will ban you.

That ban will be permanent.

If you have a problem with this then take it to the feedback forum, see if the Admins have the time of day for you. I don't. Thread locked.