Decentralisation

arcadegame2004

Originally posted by uncivilservant
I really wish people would get over this obsession with civil servants' house prices. Did you ever stop to consider that the reason people are living in these "extremely expensive houses" is because they want to?

Yes. And of course if we got everything we wanted, we wouldn't be paying taxes either. And we'd get everything for free when we go shopping.

But we're not allowed to do that because the interests of the country as a whole are put first in these matters. And it should too here.

There's a lot to be said anyway from a health point of view for moving to a far less crowded, far less polluted, and therefore far less stressful part of the country. Oh and far less expensive too.

jd

Originally posted by arcadegame2004


But we're not allowed to do that because the interests of the country as a whole are put first in these matters. And it should too here.

And the interests of the country as a whole are not served by this "plan". So it should be scrapped.

arcadegame2004

And the interests of the country as a whole are not served by this "plan". So it should be scrapped.

I can understand why Dubliners might be sceptical about decentralisation, but they need to realise that there are 26 counties in the independent Irish state, not 1.

jd

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
I can understand why Dubliners might be sceptical about decentralisation, but they need to realise that there are 26 counties in the independent Irish state, not 1.

All very well, but I'm from Wexford.

lucernarian

Why is there a need to have Depeartments in Dublin in the first place? If we are to solve the problem of unequal population distribution we need to take action. I once brought up a suggestion similar to the Buchanan plan some 30 years ago. If we were to create a rival "Dublin" somewhere else in the country this would take the pressure off certain parts of the East and would create more balanced infrastructural growth throughout the country.

Btw my solution is to remove 10300 civil servants to one other city, possibly a completely new, although a new city is more idealistic than practical

lucernarian

Sorry folks, TYPO

to one other city, possibly a completely new, although

should be

"to one other city, possibly a completely new city, although"

jd

Originally posted by To_be_confirmed
Btw my solution is to remove 10300 civil servants to one other city, possibly a completely new, although a new city is more idealistic than practical

I'd be more inclined to agree with this, rather than the current scattered approach.
We don't neeed to develop a new city- realistically Cork, Limerick, Galway and Waterford are barely cities in the modern sense, and could do with more development if you want to build a counterweight to Dublin.
Hope you wern't thinking of this lula

jd

lucernarian

S**t, that dude's a nutcase! I was thinking along the lines of choosing the best location be it a city or smaller town and developing it to such an extent that it would rival Dublin

Decentralisation needs to happen if we are to check the excessive growth of dublin. Ireland would be a better place to live in, in every way, if we can stop this unbalance in the country

GreenHell

I support it, however the one thing I have to say is that outside of Dublin infastructure is playing catch up, trains are a joke, communication is a joke, motorways are far to slow. I think once we have all our infastructure working at a 21st century level, decentralisation will work no problem.

I fear however that some departments will be place with the next general election in mind.

uncivilservant

Again, I think it's important to differentiate between decentralisation (which is a very good thing indeed) and the current "civil service relocation programme commonly referred to as decentralisation (but isn't really)".

Civil servants - or rather, about 80% of civil servants currently based in Dublin - have a problem with the latter, not the former.

uncivilservant

Originally posted by GreenHell
I fear however that some departments will be place with the next general election in mind.

the locations were identified with the local elections in mind.... didn't really work, though, did it?

sceptre

Originally posted by GreenHell
outside of Dublin infastructure is playing catch up, trains are a joke, communication is a joke, motorways are far to slow

Of course the same could be said for quite a bit of "inside Dublin" (without the catchup bit obviously:))

To be fair, the government appear to have woken up to the fact that moved departments will need decent comms and have added most of the new locations to the fibre rings project. Funnily enough though, that means random teeny place in the armpit of nowhere (I'm looking at you, Furbo) may have access to better comms than people and businesses in reasonably populous small towns and get it earlier as well.

Like you I fear that the elections play a part in the final location decisions - a classic case of making a long-term decision on a short-term gain for a subset of self-promoters.

Like uncivilservant said though, it all comes down to implementation. No-one I've asked is against decentralisation in principle (or in practice providing that the process is reasonable). And the word "reasonable" in this case has to include at least a hint of the word "voluntary".

Please take a note of my use of the word "hint". I'm not going to argue with idiots who didn't spot that word. Actually, this doesn't play highly on my interest topics though I'm quite interested in hearing views so I probably won't argue at all but spot the word anyway.

uncivilservant

The Civil Service Commission will, as previously announced, analyse the information available from the CAF on 8 July 2004. This will provide details of the numbers of staff interested in moving to the various locations and will facilitate the ongoing implementation planning process. The information will be provided to the Decentralisation Implementation Group, Government departments and State agencies, and staff interests.

No mention of when this information will be released, though. How surprising.

Source: http://www.finance.gov.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=2269

arcadegame2004

All very well, but I'm from Wexford.

As am I. Are you then aware of our county's 9% unemployment rate, in spite of us being on the east coast? I feel that the decentralisation could help Co.Wexford's economy.

Cork

For years country people who wanted to work in the civil service had to go to Dublin.

Today we have companys like Fexco in Kilorglin.

Technology has meant physical location is no barrier. The moves to decentralise has shown vision.

Too often - governments have shown lip srvice to regionalisation - with Dublin's infrastructure creaking under pressure.

spongebob

Originally posted by Cork
For years country people who wanted to work in the civil service had to go to Dublin.

Today we have companys like Fexco in Kilorglin.

Fexco is not the civil service Cork. I hear the government are looking for a caretaker in Mitchelstown though

M

Cork

Originally posted by Muck
Fexco is not the civil service Cork. I hear the government are looking for a caretaker in Mitchelstown though

M

Cng Hotels in Kenmare?

Our National treatre is in Dublin. Our national gallery, our national muesum, etc.

Why should Dublin get the largest share of government jobs?

Derek McDowells comments are quiet telling of a mindset that is present.

Why should the regions accept lesser treatment to Dublin?

Previous Regionalisation policies have failed. But this has not stopped an inept opposition to come up with development policies for this country.

Do we want more Domer towns for Dublin or regionalisation in this country.

lucernarian

In one of the more recent CSO reports, Louth (my home county) had a higher unemployment rate than Mayo. Denentralisation obviously wont create jobs but it will help put places on the political map.

In places where decentralisation is to occur, there must be adequate facilities for them. Im suprised that civil servants preffered Drogheda above nearly every other suggested location as a place to decentralise!

uncivilservant

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
As am I. Are you then aware of our county's 9% unemployment rate, in spite of us being on the east coast? I feel that the decentralisation could help Co.Wexford's economy.

For info:

Wexford population: 116,543 (per 2002 census)

Enniscorthy Population: 8,964
53 staff decentralising, Bord Bia

New Ross Population: 6,537
159 staff decentralising, Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government

Wexford Town Population: 17,235
296 staff decentralising, Department of Environment, Heritage and Local Government

Live register for Wexford in May 2004 (latest figures i've seen) puts the Wexford (county) live register at 6,716. It's debatable how much impact 500 (already taken) jobs will have on the Wexford economy, other than force up house prices.

uncivilservant

Originally posted by Cork
Why should Dublin get the largest share of government jobs?

Because it has the largest share of the population? Because it's the seat of Government?

Derek McDowells comments are quiet telling of a mindset that is present.

What did he say?

Why should the regions accept lesser treatment to Dublin?

Such as?

Previous Regionalisation policies have failed.

Perhaps, but previous decentralisation schemes have succeeded.

By the looks of things, this one won't.

uncivilservant

Originally posted by To_be_confirmed
In one of the more recent CSO reports, Louth (my home county) had a higher unemployment rate than Mayo. Denentralisation obviously wont create jobs but it will help put places on the political map.

In places where decentralisation is to occur, there must be adequate facilities for them. Im suprised that civil servants preffered Drogheda above nearly every other suggested location as a place to decentralise!

Which civil servants?

Cork

So, development can bring prosperity to Dublin and not to other parts of this country?

Should we accept a trieving Dublin and a God Fokesaken hinterland?

By decentralising government jobs - the government is shown a degree of seriousness about the regional development of this country.

But the government needs to go further and open up the rail link between Limerick and Sligo.

It is a about time that all regions of this country were developed and people did not have to travel to take up government jobs.

uncivilservant

Firstly, Government jobs are available throughout the country already. Unless I'm mistaken, the green pages at the front of the telephone directory should list the ones in your area.

Secondly, at what point did Government jobs become a tool of social engineering?

So, development can bring prosperity to Dublin and not to other parts of this country?

And who ever said that?

Cork

Originally posted by uncivilservant
Firstly, Government jobs are available throughout the country already. Unless I'm mistaken, the green pages at the front of the telephone directory should list the ones in your area.

The bulk of public sector jobs (Apart from County Councils and Town Councils) are in Dublin.

Is this fair from the point of regional development.


Why should development of this country be skewed in favour of the East Coast?

Do we really need more Domer Towns to serve a bloated East Coast?

How many hours should the many country people be prepared to sit in their cars driving into a sprawling capital city?

jd

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
As am I. Are you then aware of our county's 9% unemployment rate, in spite of us being on the east coast? I feel that the decentralisation could help Co.Wexford's economy.

If the Buchanan report (30 years ago) had been implemented, Waterford would have been developed as a proper city, which would have benefited Wexford County.
The Buchanan report wasn't implemented, mainly because people in Wexford, Kilkenny etc would have perceived themselves as losers. The local politicians didn't help much (I see that Gob****e Lorcan Allen has resurfaced on a nearby thread..).

Nothing I have seen can persuade me that this is nothing more than a vote gathering exercise.

TBH, part of the reason Wexford didn't get much foreign investment was because it had a reputation for having a difficult workforce - some relic of the steel lock outs of the early 20th century.

uncivilservant

Originally posted by Cork
The bulk of public sector jobs (Apart from County Councils and Town Councils) are in Dublin.

Is this fair from the point of regional development.

Considering the bulk of the population lives within commuting range of Dublin, is it "fair" to try to force the people currently doing these jobs to move to places they have no desire to go to? Where does "fair" fit in with robbing peter to pay paul?

Why should development of this country be skewed in favour of the East Coast?

What does taking existing jobs away from Dublin have to do with "development"?

Do we really need more Domer Towns to serve a bloated East Coast?

Are you trying to dictate to others where they should be permitted to live and work now?

How many hours should the many country people be prepared to sit in their cars driving into a sprawling capital city?

Why are they driving to dublin?

edit: and yet again, i feel obliged to say that most civil servants do not have a problem with decentralisation as a concept. The problem lies with the incredibly rushed plan we have been landed with. It is possible for decentralisation to work effectively when carried out in a considered and structured fashion, as it was in the past.

The government could have implemented voluntary, gradual decentralisation years ago, with a regional recruitment policy to match, but political cowardice saw that they didn't.

Instead, we are left in a situation where political expediency and the worst kind of parish pump politics dictated a rushed plan and a gun to the head of every civil servant in dublin. Where's the "fair" in that?

uncivilservant

Latest survey results from uncivilservant.com:

What are your plans for Decentralisation?
Stay in Dublin: 90
Relocate with other Department: 15
Relocate with parent Department: 6
Already Decentralised: 1

Total votes: 112

Not very scientific, not a huge sample, but indicative nonetheless.

uncivilservant

As if on cue:

PRELIMINARY RESULTS from an IMPACT survey of its members in the civil service confirm that Dublin-based staff simply don’t want to move out of the capital under the Government’s decentralisation programme. Results of the survey were being collated and analysed as IMPACT News went to press.

It shows that just eight per cent of IMPACT members want to move with their current organisation, if it is earmarked for relocation. A further nine per cent have expressed a desire to move to another organisation and location under the decentralisation plan.

But more than half of those who said no to those questions said they wouldn’t move under any circumstances. IMPACT’s assertion that services would suffer from decentralisation, because it would create massive shortages of specialist staff, is also endorsed by the survey.

One hundred per cent of technical and specialist staff in five areas said they didn’t want to go to their proposed new locations. They were the Forensic Science Laboratory, Geological Survey of Ireland, the Valuation Office, the Equality Authority, and Architectural and Heritage Services.

There were similarly high numbers of ‘refusniks’ in Probation and Welfare (97 per cent), the Department of the Environment Inspectors (93 per cent), and the Health and Safety Authority (82 per cent).

The survey revealed a big impact on morale among specialist staff, with some respondents regretting that they had not entered the general service instead of taking professional or technical posts for which they were qualified.

John Power, chairperson of IMPACT’s Civil Service division, said the divisional executive would be circulating an analysis of the results to branches once it was complete.

edit: It should be noted that the staff IMPACT represents are what is known as "Technical Grades" - architects, engineers, surveyors etc. Not the kind of highly skilled people that could (or should!) easily be "reassigned" into general administrative grades if they choose to stay on in Dublin.

kittex

My mother's going through this, her department is waiting to hear if they'll be moved to some midland county, despite the fact that her job is to co-ordinate and assess the success of departmental projects - in Dublin.

So she'll be effectively commuting 3 days a week back to Dublin anyway. All mileage that has to be paid for ultimately by the tax payer.

IMO, the theory of decentralisation is fine. Who doesn't want to spread the wealth a bit and see ther pressure taken off Dublin?
But as usual, the farcical way these things are implemented is the problem.

Forcing people to move across the country, away from their family and lives is a bit extreme. Your job isn't your only consideration in life and the individual should be respected in this whole debate.

Phased moves, offer of redunancy, transfers and of course there are now tonnes of jobs that can be done from home a few days a week. There are lots of ways to encourage this without resorting to the kind of dictorial and punitive attitude they have so far.

arcadegame2004

PRELIMINARY being the operative word uncivilservant.

lucernarian

Which civil servants?

I read about a survey taken in my local paper. I believe the article said that Drogheda had the lowest opposition by civil servants to move there in the country. That survey might have been the aforementioned IMPACT one?:dunno:

uncivilservant

Originally posted by To_be_confirmed
I read about a survey taken in my local paper. I believe the article said that Drogheda had the lowest opposition by civil servants to move there in the country. That survey might have been the aforementioned IMPACT one?:dunno:

The results of the IMPACT survey were only released in the last 48 hours.

uncivilservant

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
PRELIMINARY being the operative word uncivilservant.

Hmm and just how much of a swing from the 80% -100% complete opposition are you expecting to see?

One hundred per cent of technical and specialist staff in five areas said they didn’t want to go to their proposed new locations. They were the Forensic Science Laboratory, Geological Survey of Ireland, the Valuation Office, the Equality Authority, and Architectural and Heritage Services.

There were similarly high numbers of ‘refusniks’ in Probation and Welfare (97 per cent), the Department of the Environment Inspectors (93 per cent), and the Health and Safety Authority (82 per cent).

lucernarian

The results of the IMPACT survey were only released in the last 48 hours.

Mabye so, but that does not affect the point I am making. Some survey or other was taken and the results were mentioned in a paper.

Btw what were the results for the Depeartment of Social Welfare?

uncivilservant

Originally posted by To_be_confirmed
Mabye so, but that does not affect the point I am making. Some survey or other was taken and the results were mentioned in a paper.

Great source.

Btw what were the results for the Depeartment of Social Welfare?

I have no idea - I don't think IMPACT have many members (if any at all) in Social Welfare (previous post re: grades represented refers), and very, very few Departments have actually surveyed their own staff.

A case of 'if you don't think you'll like the answer then don't ask the question", perhaps?

lucernarian

The paper itself was not the source of the information, the survey was.

A case of 'if you don't think you'll like the answer then don't ask the question", perhaps?

I only asked that question to try and clarify matters and there's no reason why I should be offended by the answer if i understand you correctly. Earlier I expressed suprise at what I read about one particular result of the survey. I would be happy if the survey was correct but i was only making a small point that I feel that Drogheda has little to offer above other towns

halkar

Relocate Oireachtas, ministers and Bertie. Then maybe we get our country roads fixed.

Cork

What is wrong with the government leading by example by putting civil service jobs into the regions?

Some people moan about everything. They crib that there is too much congestion in Dublin. But then when the government comits itself to decentralise various services - they moan again.

What do these people want?

Do they want it everyway?

Successive Irish governments have made a mess of regionalisation. Moves to decentralise is a small but important step.

uncivilservant

Originally posted by To_be_confirmed
The paper itself was not the source of the information, the survey was.

There is no source, in the context of providing sources for information quoted here.

I only asked that question to try and clarify matters and there's no reason why I should be offended by the answer if i understand you correctly. Earlier I expressed suprise at what I read about one particular result of the survey. I would be happy if the survey was correct but i was only making a small point that I feel that Drogheda has little to offer above other towns

The comment was in relation to "very, very few Departments have actually surveyed their own staff", not anything you said.

uncivilservant

Originally posted by Cork
What is wrong with the government leading by example by putting civil service jobs into the regions?

Absolutely nothing.

Some people moan about everything. They crib that there is too much congestion in Dublin. But then when the government comits itself to decentralise various services - they moan again.

And you've spoken to all of these "some people" yourself, have you? You know all 10,300 affected people's opinions on both congestion and decentralisation?

("Some people" is quite a wonderful phrase, up there with "a bloke down the pub told me" and "sure everyone knows".)

What do these people want?

Do they want it everyway?

If by "want it everyway?" you actually mean "want not to be blackmailed, coerced and threatened into moving to a town or city hundreds of miles from their home, friends and family; to some godforsaken backwater location chosen with one eye on the parish pump and the other on the election; to some location chosen simply because it is located in some Minister's constituency?", then yes - that's exactly what we want.

Successive Irish governments have made a mess of regionalisation. Moves to decentralise is a small but important step.

Couldn't have put it better myself - moves to decentralise should be taken in small steps. You know - for the assessing and the planning and all that stuff normally done before decisions are taken?

Sparks

You know that "leading by example" doesn't actually mean "tell a whole bunch of people to uproot their lives and move to the middle of nowhere while you yourself remain in Dublin", right?

Victor

Originally posted by Cork
What is wrong with the government leading by example by putting civil service jobs into the regions?

Leading by example would be decentralizing themselves

Cork

Originally posted by Sparks
You know that "leading by example" doesn't actually mean "tell a whole bunch of people to uproot their lives and move to the middle of nowhere while you yourself remain in Dublin", right?

Companies are constantly moving location. It is a pretty common occurance.

The state will be able to sell prime Dublin property & it will put some economic activity into the regions.

These civil servants have already been in reciept of large amounts of money under bench marking for changes in work practices & flexability.

The location of their work is changing.

So what?

This happens in many industrys. It happened to a company that I worked for which moved to Cork from a neighbouring county.

therecklessone

Originally posted by Cork
Companies are constantly moving location. It is a pretty common occurance.

The state will be able to sell prime Dublin property & it will put some economic activity into the regions.

These civil servants have already been in reciept of large amounts of money under bench marking for changes in work practices & flexability.

The location of their work is changing.

So what?

This happens in many industrys. It happened to a company that I worked for which moved to Cork from a neighbouring county.

Great example of avoiding the question.

Victor

Originally posted by Cork
The state will be able to sell prime Dublin property & it will put some economic activity into the regions.

You mean place office space on an oversupplied office market? With 15% empty space?

Cork

Originally posted by Victor
You mean place office space on an oversupplied office market? With 15% empty space?

But with Irish gowth forecasts looking pretty fine - I am sure tennants will be found.

lucernarian

I think the Government should inform Civil Servants about the locations they may be moving to. Then civil servants would have more justified reasons not to move there... or to move there.

spongebob

They are putting some near me but I don't want them there at all ....clogging up the roads and making a nuisance of themselves in the local schools with their skangerified kids and their white tracksuits and trying to cheapskate the local creches by trying to get flexitime discounts for 30 mins every morning and then showing up early half the time .

Send them all to Cork I say..........I don't want them here if they haven't already decentralised their asses voluntarily .

M

lucernarian

They are putting some near me but I don't want them there at all ....clogging up the roads and making a nuisance of themselves in the local schools with their skangerified kids and their white tracksuits and trying to cheapskate the local creches by trying to get flexitime discounts for 30 mins every morning and then showing up early half the time .

Lol, unfortunately though too much of wat muck said is true

uncivilservant

Originally posted by Cork
But with Irish gowth forecasts looking pretty fine - I am sure tennants will be found.

I'm sorry, but until you attain the capacity to read the answers to the questions you ask i'll not be responding to you again.