Decentralisation

Macy

jdwals wrote:

The Department of Finance officials knew as much about Decentralisation as the rest of us until it was broken to key officials before budget day. Even the Secretary Generals or equivilent of the Departments/Agencies involved did not know until they were told just before it was announced.

McCreevy has people working on the budget. AFAIK the memo saying not to include State Agencies was from Pre-budget times. Certainly it was before the actual plan was formulated.

holly_johnson

Macy wrote:

McCreevy has people working on the budget. AFAIK the memo saying not to include State Agencies was from Pre-budget times. Certainly it was before the actual plan was formulated.

Perhaps one or two people knew in Dept Finance about parts of the Decentralisation plan, but NO ONE knew the whole plan until McCreevy announced it. Sec Gens found out about an hour before the speech in the Dáil. McCreevy devised most of this plan by himself, or using people other than civil servants.

Marica

holly_johnson wrote:

I thought that state agency staff could move into the Civil Service if they didn't want to move? Also, you say Decentralisation is good in principle (as long as the state agencies are not included). I dispute this. It is not only state agencies that have technical grades, the civil service has more than its share, and look at what is happening to them, IT staff in particular. Our jobs are going, we don't want to go, but we have no choice either. So as far as I am concerned, we are all in the same (sinking) boat.

At the moment State agency staff have no right of transfer into the civil service and anyway the civil service unions will resist allowing staff from the agencies to become civil servants as an influx of people from outside the service will damage the promotional prospects of the people they represent. In Foreign Affairs a couple of years ago there was industrial action over the transfer of about 50 former APSO staff into the general service grades in the department, so letting in 2000 or so agency staff will be quite contentious. No discussions have yet taken place on the practicalities of allowing staff from the agencies to become civil servants - it's a minefield of contractual issues, pension arrangements, recognition of service for seniority, etc and I think it will be quite a while before they get their heads around it.

To clarify what I meant about excluding State agencies from the programme, I agree with you that the professional and technical posts in the civil service should not be included either. I still think decentralisation on a smaller scale is not necessarily a bad thing - previous programmes have transformed a lot of medium-sized towns for the better - but only non-specialist administrative grades are really suitable for decentralisation and it must be entirely voluntary.

pete

Marica wrote:

but only non-specialist administrative grades are really suitable for decentralisation and it must be entirely voluntary.

Don't you mean "non-specialist administrative posts"?

Or are only IMPACT members allowed to specialise?

pete

holly_johnson wrote:

I heard about this yesterday. This hasn't been agreed, it was tabled at a decentralisation meeting, so perhaps that's why it wasn't released. I wonder how the paper heard about it??

from the PSEU website (my emphasis):

It was noted that a meeting of a sub-committee had taken place to discuss payments for people required to go to locations, for which they had not applied - most commonly Dublin - in order to train, prior to re-locating under the programme. An offer of up to €1,500 for somebody spending two months in this situation had been made and there had been discussions regarding the conditions for such payments. The meeting noted that a draft set of proposals were awaited from the Official Side.

NewDubliner

From The Sunday Business Post
I doubt if the people who were polled and favoured 'decentralisation' were told how much they'd have to pay for it, but the article is a valid observation of the political dilemma posed by the project.

Kenny, Rabbitte cannot deny that decentralisation plans are popular

26 March 2006 By Paul T Colgan
The opposition may be attempting to take advantage of government difficulties with decentralisation, but neither Fine Gael leader Enda Kenny nor Labour leader Pat Rabbitte can ignore the fact that their supporters are still in favour of the plan.

Siptu workers at Fas issued two weeks’ strike notice last Thursday over their opposition to plans to move from Dublin to Birr in Co Offaly. The union has accused Fas of ‘‘promotional blackmail’’ as the agency has linked decentralisation moves to staff promotion and recruitment.

The strike is the most serious threat to government plans since they were announced by former finance minister Charlie McCreevy in 2003. It follows months of discontent at other state agencies.

According to government figures provided to Fine Gael late last year, fewer than one in nine civil servants are willing to move jobs. Answers to parliamentary questions revealed that, of the 7,400 posts being decentralised, only 753 civil servants had expressed a willingness to move.

The same figures showed that, in the case of one state body, Pobal, not one of its 40 staff was prepared to move to Clifden in Co Galway. At An Bord Iascaigh Mhara and Failte Ireland, no staff were willing to move to offices in Clonakilty and Killarney. At the Ordnance Survey of Ireland, only 15 out of 210 were happy with relocating to Dungarvan, Co Waterford.

At Development Cooperation Ireland, the state agency that controls the government’s €500million overseas development aid programme, only 13 of the 123 staff said they would be moving.

Figures obtained under the Freedom of Information Act showed that only one in five workers at the Department of Finance’s specialist information and computer technology unit was ready to move to offices in Kildare town.

Understandably, Kenny and Rabbitte have sought to portray government plans as a ‘‘shambles’’.

However, both men are hamstrung in launching an all-out attack on the coalition by the fact that opinion polls show Fine Gael and Labour voters largely support decentralisation and wish to see it continue.

An opinion poll published in January showed that, among Fine Gael supporters, 56 per cent believe the government should proceed with the programme, 23 per cent feel it should not and 13 per cent have no opinion.

In the case of Labour, 50 per cent said they felt it should continue, 34 per cent said it should not and 16 per cent had no opinion.

In Connacht/Ulster, 78 per cent were in favour of decentralisation; in Leinster (excluding Dublin), the figure was 74 per cent.

While Kenny and Rabbitte may fume about decentralisation being little more than a cunning plan to win votes in marginal constituencies, neither of them can deny its popularity among voters, if not workers.

Last year’s report by the Decentralisation Implementation Group estimated that a series of properties needed for decentralisation would be available early next year, just before the expected Dail election.

Among them were the Department of Communications in Drogheda, Co Louth; the Department of Arts, Sport and Tourism in Killarney, Co Kerry; the Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs in Knock, Co Mayo; and the Department of Transport in Co Galway.

While the Fas strike action will cause concern for those overseeing the project, it is not expected that similar industrial action will be taken anywhere else.

Sources at Siptu, the union representing the workers who plan to hold stoppages and picket Fas headquarters, said they were unaware of any other similar disputes that might arise. The union has said it will shortly launch a campaign to have state agencies removed from the decentralisation programme.

Dinarius

Let's face it, crowds are stupid. We all know that. The locals who perceive a slice of the civil service pie coming to their town should be told a few home truths, principal among which is the massive inflation that it would bring. Particularly in the area of housing.

Secondly, has anyone considered for one minute whether each area will be able, almost overnight, to cater for an influx in school children? Are the place there? Or whether the local hospital will be able to cope with increased numbers?

And prior to all of that, have they been made aware of the huge infrastructural damage that will be caused?

Of course they haven't.

What is happening is for the most part little short of criminal. However, I use the term 'for the most part' advisedly. Moving Marine to Clonakilty when...

a. All 90 positions were filled almost immediately AND in all the required grades.

b. Marine is a political non-entity. Policy and administration could be handled from Alaska, never mind Clonakilty. The fishing industry is dead.

....is a no-brainer, and should have been done immediately when they had the initiative. Or is it?

They may have all the requirements, but how many of those working in Marine are going? What will happen to them?

If the figures above are correct, then about 6000+ Dublin based civil services will be left on the payroll with nothing to do.

Look at it another way, if they fill 7000+ places by playing musical chairs as they are currently doing, who will take the jobs of the 7000 that have left their ex-Dublin posts for other ex-Dublin posts?

This could only happen in Ireland.

D.

Macy

While the Fas strike action will cause concern for those overseeing the project, it is not expected that similar industrial action will be taken anywhere else.

Well it will depend on the outcome in FAS. No other semi-state has introduced the same contracts, without following agreed consultation procedures, so of course it isn't on the cards, yet.

Sources at Siptu, the union representing the workers who plan to hold stoppages and picket Fas headquarters, said they were unaware of any other similar disputes that might arise. The union has said it will shortly launch a campaign to have state agencies removed from the decentralisation programme.

Again, it will depend on other semi states action with regard to contracts. If another state agency introduced decentralisation clause contracts in the same way I've no doubt it would be put in dispute. This again will depend on what happens in FAS.

samb

Dinarius wrote:

The locals who perceive a slice of the civil service pie coming to their town should be told a few home truths, principal among which is the massive inflation that it would bring. Particularly in the area of housing.
.

Most voters probably own a house already (or have a huge morgage) and would be delighted to see the price keep rising. The young don't vote, so the government has done little to address this issue. If we must may a morgage for 30+ years, then we are not as wealthy as we are being told we are.

NewDubliner

This from the Independent, 1st April, It claims that the redeployment of of the agriculture workers as driver testers failed because of union opposition. I thought the reason was that they were in the wrong locations or couldn't drive?

400 Agriculture civil servants will soon be at a loose end
Senan Molony
Political Correspondent

FOUR hundred civil servants who will soon have no work to do must be speedily redeployed to prevent another scandal of the State paying out millions for workers who engage only in thumb-twiddling, the Dail Public Accounts Committee has warned.

It is highlighting the 400 civil servants soon to become effectively workless in the Department of Agriculture. They are being freed up following changes to the Common Agricultural Policy leading to direct payments to farmers and a wholesale end to government administration.

It is understood a proportion of the workers have already no work to do, while the Secretary General of the Department had admitted that all 400 will soon have nothing to occupy their time.

A recent proposal to transfer the cohort to the Department of the Environment to act as additional driver testers failed when the unions won a victory on the whole issue of out-sourcing of their traditional work to private testers.

Now the chairman of the PAC, Michael Noonan TD, has warned that there is no room for demarcation in the modern public service - and that surplus civil servants should swiftly transfer to other work.

He warned that the record of the civil service in the area of redeployment was not good - which had huge implications for the Government's planned decentralisation.

The_Conductor

NewDubliner wrote:

This from the Independent, 1st April, It claims that the redeployment of of the agriculture workers as driver testers failed because of union opposition. I thought the reason was that they were in the wrong locations or couldn't drive?

Eh no. That would be because the salary scales we were sent showed the Driver Testers would be on the low end of the EO salary scale (i.e. only of interest to COs) no flexitime which people have at present, it was only ever for a 1 year contract (and you had to sign an agreement that you would not seek to rejoin the Department of Agriculture at the end of the contract), and the final reason was no-one with penalty points was allowed to apply (this restriction did actually kill a couple of applications, including one that I am aware of where the individual was not aware that they had 2 penalty points).

While the CPSU and the PSEU did advise members in Agriculture House not to apply- given the restrictions on the posts in the first place, you would have had to have been a CO without any ambitions whatsoever, and a massachistic streak, to apply......

NewDubliner

smccarrick wrote:

Eh no. .

Thanks for the clarification, but I think that the Indo's statement is still quite wrong.

Firetrap

It is April Fool's day you know
Though nothing could be a bigger joke than the whole Decentralisation program

gazzer

My friend told me a story at the weekend concernign the civil servents (CO's) who moved to the Dept of Justice to work on the pulse system a few months back.

No this could be a load of cobblers but anyway he said that the staff who moved put in a claim for the highest point on their salary to be increased by a further 8000 euro due to the fact that the gardai had been inputting the data on the pulse system prior to the new staff transferring in and because the wages for the gardai was more than the CO's who transferred in they were entitled to an increase under the eqality act..

Has anybody else heard this story??

holly_johnson

gazzer wrote:

My friend told me a story at the weekend concernign the civil servents (CO's) who moved to the Dept of Justice to work on the pulse system a few months back.

No this could be a load of cobblers but anyway he said that the staff who moved put in a claim for the highest point on their salary to be increased by a further 8000 euro due to the fact that the gardai had been inputting the data on the pulse system prior to the new staff transferring in and because the wages for the gardai was more than the CO's who transferred in they were entitled to an increase under the eqality act..

Has anybody else heard this story??

eh no... I think he might be pulling your leg a tad. I reckon if that was true, we would all have heard about that one!

pete

gazzer wrote:

My friend told me a story at the weekend concernign the civil servents (CO's) who moved to the Dept of Justice to work on the pulse system a few months back.

No this could be a load of cobblers but anyway he said that the staff who moved put in a claim for the highest point on their salary to be increased by a further 8000 euro due to the fact that the gardai had been inputting the data on the pulse system prior to the new staff transferring in and because the wages for the gardai was more than the CO's who transferred in they were entitled to an increase under the eqality act..

Has anybody else heard this story??

Sounds like wishful thinking from someone who read an overview of the infamous paperkeeper claim.... but that's not to say it didn't happen.

I've been around civil service unions long enough to find it somewhat credible.

gazzer

In regards to the CO/Gardai pay claim in posted yesterday i got my hands on a copy of the CPSU magazine Aontas and there is indeed an article about an equal pay claim been lodged for CO's working in garda stations.. however it was not the CO's who transfered to work on the Pulse system who claimed but rather 8 women back in 1999 who lodged an equal pay claim as they were 'doing like work to gardai who were assigned to clerical/admin functions in garda stations around the country. The case was lodged with the Dept of Justice in 1999 and then the Equality Tribunal in 2000.

There is a form in the latest issue of Aontas inviting members to make a claim under the equality tribunal findings.... so it is not really as a result of Decentralisation that this has come about but i suppose it will have some bearing on anyone who transfers to work in a garda station... the article doenst say how much extra the staff will be getting so i dont know if that 8000 euro quoted by my friend is true.

jd

Is it true there is a "Central Decentralisation Unit" in the DOF?

holly_johnson

jd wrote:

Is it true there is a "Central Decentralisation Unit" in the DOF?

yes

NewDubliner

jd wrote:

Is it true there is a "Central Decentralisation Unit" in the DOF?

Yes, it's at http://www.decentralisation.gov.ie Latest news is a really gripping essay: In Defence of Decentralisation. A handy re-hash of all the past spin.

NewDubliner

This from the UK Sunday Times, Kiberd is being conservative when he prices the scheme at 900m. Also he misses the opportunity to take a swipe at Parlon's " how do you eat an elephant" quote.

The Sunday Times - Business

The Sunday Times April 09, 2006

Irish Outlook: Damien Kiberd: Let us slay this €900m white elephant — now
THERE were almost surreal scenes in Dublin’s Baggot Street last week as Fas employees staged a 3½-hour picket outside their own headquarters. The issue that prompted the protest was decentralisation and the minister of state Tom Parlon’s plan to move the state training and employment authority to Birr in Co Offaly.

The role of Fas has developed in recent times. One of its key tasks in an economy close to full employment is to match the supply and demand for labour in key geographic areas. Applying this rule to its own business has been a complete failure. Just six out of 400 Fas employees would like to be transferred to “Parlon Country”, as it is called.

The numbers prepared to make the trek were boosted by a further 20 when recent recruits to Fas were told it was an explicit condition of their employment contracts that they would do so, if instructed.

With the government attempting to get as many as 10,000 public servants to decentralise to 53 rural locations, the problem at Fas is by no means an isolated one. Indeed, it is typical of the mess that has been created by this so-called initiative.

The public service unions claim as many as 90% of staff in state departments and agencies simply do not want to go. The resistance among senior staff is greatest: they already have deep family roots in the capital, children at school and university and established living patterns that they do not want to alter.

Faced with the likely failure of its expensive decentralisation strategy — the projected cost is about €900m — a new element has crept into the process. The Fas experience reveals that public servants in various agencies will see their chances of promotion more or less evaporate if they refuse to move to the 53 rural locations. Correspondingly, the promotion prospects of those who do move will be enhanced.

The political motivation for decentralisation is clear. It allows TDs from government parties to swagger around local towns and villages suggesting they have won some great prize for their locality, though it is now extremely doubtful that any of these towns and villages actually require an influx of public service employees, given the general prosperity of the country.

It seems to me that the government is skating on very thin ice here. Just a few weeks ago, a senior employee of Microsoft — confronted by a broadly analogous set of demands — won a significant court victory against her employers and was awarded substantial damages and costs. Is it possible that the public-service unions could launch a similar legal action or even a class action against the state? Decentralisation is a busted flush. Worse, it is an example of appalling planning at the macro-level, a failure underlined further last week when it was revealed that close to 200,000 people from the “accession states” have sought personal public service (PPS) numbers in the past two years.

Some 6,600 Poles are now seeking PPS numbers each month, with another 1,400 Lithuanians doing likewise. In 2005, the monthly average of people from the accession states seeking PPS numbers was 9,200. In other words about 110,000 people primarily from Poland, the Baltic states and eastern Europe exhibited some desire to work here. That said, we do not know how many took up employment nor how many stayed for a while and left.

So here we have the government planning to spend €900m coercing 10,000 public servants, most of them against their will, to leave Dublin when there is no shortage of immigrants willing to come to Ireland and populate centres that the state seems to believe need new blood.

The economic logic of decentralisation, dubious from the start, is non-existent. The policy is an embarrassment and should simply be scrapped....

NewDubliner

Looks like people are beginning to realise the true cost of the FF/PD scheme:

Sunday Tribune

5,000 civil servants face a lifetime of doing nothing at all
Sun, 23 Apr 2006 by Martin Frawley

Martin Frawley asks what will happen to those in the public service whose jobs will be decentralised without them

UP TO 5,000 public servants who are unwilling to move out of Dublin under the government's decentralisation plan, face the prospect of being `whitewalled' by their employer - at an extra cost of Eur 250m a year to the taxpayer. `Whitewalling' is an American practise in which a company, faced with an employee whose job has become redundant, puts him in an empty office with four white walls and nothing to do.

But rather than an act of kindness on behalf of an employee whose job has become redundant but who still needs to support a family, the real aim is that the employee will become so demoralised that he will leave of his own accord, thus avoiding the need for any costly redundancy package.

While Minister of State in Finance, Tom Parlon, who is in charge of decentralisation, strongly denied any such treachery against his own staff, the latest decentralisation figures show that of the 9,600 public service jobs to be moved out of the capital, only around 4,500 public servants working in Dublin have volunteered to go. The government counters that over 10,000 public servants have volunteered to move. But the majority of those willing to make the move down the country are public servants who are already living there and presumably want to move closer to home.

So no matter what way you slice it, when or if the decentralisation process is complete, there will be over 5,000 public servants in Dublin whose jobs have gone down the country without them. Because, as the government has stressed time and again decentralisation is voluntary, these public servants cannot be forced to move with their jobs. In any case, the public servants have a job and pension for life.

The government points out that those remaining in Dublin will be able to transfer to other jobs in the capital. But it would take years for the government departments and agencies remaining in Dublin to absorb so many extra staff. And it would stand the logic of decentralisation on its head if thousands of public servants were squeezed into phantom jobs in Dublin because they didn't want to move out of the capital.

Unless there is a dramatic change of heart over the next three years, that is exactly what will happen; the government will be left with up to 5,000 public servants twiddling their thumbs in Dublin. At around Eur 50,000 per public servant employed, this will cost Eur 250m a year. This would be on top of the estimated Eur 1bn the government estimates it needs to buy, lease or rent office buildings in the 53 locations around the country.

Although Parlon says public servants won't be left jobless in Dublin, he is less clear as to how it will be achieved. "There will be no whitewalling and no duplication, with workers doing two jobs. That is an absolute commitment;' Parlon told Labour's finance spokesperson Joan Burton at a Finance Oireachtas committee hearing two weeks ago. But when pressed as to how this can be avoided, Parlon said: "The government will not allow it to happen."

But it has happened here before. Staff in the old Land Commission continued to punch in every day for years even though the commission had been closed down. Even today there are a few hundred staff in the Department of Agriculture who are surplus to requirements following the closure of a number of EU grant schemes. Originally these workers were supposed to become driver testers in a bid to reduce the backlog of learner drivers. But they were found unsuitable for the job and the plan was dropped.

Civil service employers are still trying to find something for them to do.

While many would dream of a well-paid job doing nothing, career-orientated public servants are not looking forward to what Burton said is a "tremendously destructive" situation to be in. Promotional prospects are not good when you are doing nothing and that is Parlon's second big problem with decentralisation. On top of having 5,000 idle public servants in Dublin, he will also have lost their expertise, which will take time to replace. Many of those unwilling to leave Dublin are professional and technical staff such as architects, draughtsmen and engineers. For example, an engineer cannot realistically do clerical work while a clerical worker will not become an engineer overnight.

Richard Bruton, Fine Gael's spokesman on finance, kindly reminded Parlon of these difficulties at the same select committee hearing. "Not one person in Bord Iascaigh Mhara or Failte Ireland wants to move," he said. "Only one out of 90 on the National Roads Authority, two out of 100 in the Public Appointments Service, five out of 100 in the Valuation Office, nine out of 110 in the Health and Safety Authority, 15 out of 210 in the Ordnance Survey and 19 out of 300 in Enterprise Ireland are willing to move with their jobs."

But Parlon was still upbeat, arguing that decentralisation is "an extremely popular programme with civil servants." He did admit, however, that former Finance Minister Charlie McCreevy's announcement in December 2003 that decentralisation would be completed in three years was "ambitious." "Anyone would have said that such a target was impossible," said Parlon.

Dinarius

"....But it has happened here before. Staff in the old Land Commission continued to punch in every day for years even though the commission had been closed down. Even today there are a few hundred staff in the Department of Agriculture who are surplus to requirements following the closure of a number of EU grant schemes....."

Hasn't something similar happened with John O'Donoghue's masterstroke (when he was Minister for Justice) of moving the Legal Aid Board to Cahirciveen? Perhaps someone with the inside track on this Kerry Joke can enlighten us.

D.

NewDubliner

Dinarius wrote:

Hasn't something similar happened with John O'Donoghue's masterstroke (when he was Minister for Justice) of moving the Legal Aid Board to Cahirciveen? Perhaps someone with the inside track on this Kerry Joke can enlighten us.D.

I think the actual work is still being done in Dublin by the 'redundant' staff while the new staff learn the ropes. That said, there was a report that since the people working in Cahirciveen, live in Killarney, many have applied to 'decentralise' to Killarney. So, new trainees will have to be found for Cahirciveen and the staff in Dublin will be needed for a while yet.

pete

There will be no whitewalling and no duplication, with workers doing two jobs.

i'm guessing he meant to say

...no duplication, with two workers doing one job.

The_Conductor

Dinarius wrote:

Even today there are a few hundred staff in the Department of Agriculture who are surplus to requirements following the closure of a number of EU grant schemes....."

Yes, there are a load of us on secondment to the Dept. of Justice for running the Pulse system (half our Castlebar office). Thats before you mention our Dublin based staff- all barr 20 of whom have been declared surplus to requirements. The highest ranking officer we are due to have in Dublin is a single EO in the DVO in Tallaght.

Meanwhile Personnel are only allowing those staff members who filled in a D-CAF application form attend open days in other departments (e.g. the Revenue Commissioners open day on Thursday in Bedford Hall). Soooooo- irrespective of whether you have anything to do or not- you will not be let go anywhere (irrespective of your wishes) unless you previously agreed to either decentralise or move to another Department. I am aware of lots of people who have not filled out the DCAF on a matter of principle, who are now being disallowed to attend briefing sessions in other departments.

Strange days.....

TempestSabre

Seem strange that the determining factor on filling positions is not how skilled or qualified a person is to do the role, but where they wish to do it.

Equally it seems that by "volunteering" to stay in Dublin you are giving up all opportunities of promotion. So basically your career is over.

NewDubliner

TempestSabre wrote:

Equally it seems that by "volunteering" to stay in Dublin you are giving up all opportunities of promotion. So basically your career is over.

According to all the plans I've seen, Dublin staff who want to remain in Dublin but who 'are committed to decentralisation' will play an important role in training in their replacements, after which 'they will be looked after'. What does that mean?

Anyway, here's news on more money for 'Parlon Country' from every press-relations-officer's best friend, the 'Irish Independent':

THE State is sitting on a property goldmine in the capital.

With developers prepared to fork out up to €80m an acre in Dublin 4, a review of what is left over is well underway by different government bodies.

Over €300m has come into the exchequer coffers from the sale of surplus or underused state properties, with a number of other deals in the pipeline.

Last November the Office of Public Works set a new Irish land record by selling the two-acre site of the former veterinary college in Dublin 4 for €171.5m.

On Friday it will sell an adjacent 0.4 acre site, currently occupied by the Department of Justice, for at least €30m.

But these sales could be only the beginning of a much richer seam that will unlock hundreds of property millions over the coming years.

In Donnybrook, CIE owns seven acres of land at its bus depot which, if redeveloped correctly, could prove hugely valuable.

An outright sale of this site could raise over €200m.

However, the bus depot is a vital piece of infrastructure which would be difficult to replace.

It is thought that CIE might be considering allowing development on top of its depot as it is already doing at a site off Abbey Street in Dublin city centre.

Less than a mile down the road from CIE's bus depot, UCD sits on 320 acres.

UCD is unlikely to sell off any significant tract of land but it could enter joint ventures with developers.

It is involved in a joint venture with developers to build apartments on land it owns in Clonskeagh. Under the terms of this deal it has given the developers three acres of land and in return it will get around 66 apartments on the land.

It is also looking at bringing in private backers to fund a 10-year development plan which could cost up to €400m. This plan includes a 300-bed conference hotel, swimming pool and arthouse cinema.

Meanwhile, the Government is continuing to make the most of its property portfolio by cashing in on the property boom.

Junior Finance Minister Tom Parlon has presided over €300m worth of sales in the past three years. These funds have mainly been directed towards building and leasing new offices under the decentralisation programme.

There are a number of other sales in the pipeline and decentralisation will also free up a number of lucrative properties in Dublin.

Once the Department of Education relocates to the midlands, its headquarters on Marlborough Street will be freed up for the Department of Health.

This will allow its present headquarters, Hawkins House, to be redeveloped or sold.

The State could also make anything up to €2bn from the sale of Mountjoy Prison for residential and commercial development.

Minister Parlon predicted it could be one of the most lucrative property deals in the history of the State.

Tom Lyons and Fionann Sheahan

luckat

The sad thing about decentralisation is that it *could* be such a good thing - if the decentralising were to other cities, rather than country areas.

Friend of a friend recently bought a house in Co Galway - a new four-bed detached house with a big garden, in a lovely countrysidey estate, facing on to a ringfort. His commute to lár-caithreach na Gaillimhe is 20 to 30 minutes, a nice traffic-free drive. There are good schools locally and in the city. I'd move there in a breath, if I could get work in Galway.

Same isn't true if you're going to a little tiny country town.

The whole point of decent-ing is to bring purchasing power into FF constituencies. It's a good idea that's been badly thought through.

uncivilservant

Well it's been quite the busy few days for the Decentralisation programme...

Apparently the Taoiseach believes that all it takes to relieve Dublin traffic congestion is to send 4,500 civil servants beyond the pale. Remarkable.

Meanwhile, it appears it will cost the exchequer €65million a year to pay the salaries of specialist civil servants (and only the specialists) remaining in Dublin while their dopplegangers are off doing their bit easing Dublin's traffic congestion elsewhere in the country. You can read more about this fiasco on the IMPACT website.

And to top it all off, OPW has announced it will commence its own "decentralisation" programme, quite possibly by simply changing a sign above a door. It seems they are to take in some Department of Agriculture waifs and strays in Mayo who are currenly "surplus to requirements" in their existing Department and have applied to "decentralise" to their existing location. Let's hope the Claremorris economy reaps the benefits of all the "extra jobs".

Quite literally, a master stroke.

TempestSabre

Ms O'Donnell said the union had put its proposals to Departmental of Finance officials last month, "but we were told but they said they could not respond to the union's suggestions as they were 'political decisions'".

Decentralisation at any cost? or votes at any cost?

NewDubliner

uncivilservant wrote:

Apparently the Taoiseach believes that all it takes to relieve Dublin traffic congestion is to send 4,500 civil servants beyond the pale. Remarkable.

He's really lost the plot. Once the offices are sold, new commuters will replace the old ones - traffic will get worse not better, as a result.

Then his remark:

I don’t see what people have against parts of the country in his House.

- this shows he's no grasp if the issues involved.

Latest is that they've scrapped the move of the probation officers. No explanation has been give as to why it's taken so long to figure ut that it was a stupid idea to begin with.

Macy

If Berties so keen on moving down the country, he should scrap the current plan and start with the Houses of the Oireachtas....

Hopefully the Probation Officers is just the start of a row back of the agencies that clearly make no sense to move and in which staff have no interest in moving. Seeing as Bertie accepts there's no appetite in the state agencies, Parlon should be put back in his box, and they should be next off the list.

NewDubliner

Tom Parlon is quoted as saying:

"The absolute assurance given by the Government from the outset is that no civil servant will lose their job," added Mr Parlon, who has agreed to meet Impact later this month to discuss the move.

The Fás staff who are being pressed to transfer to his constituency are not Civil Servants, they're Public Servants.

Small wonder the staff are in revolt.

eigrod

NewDubliner wrote:

Tom Parlon is quoted as saying:The Fás staff who are being pressed to transfer to his constituency are not Civil Servants, they're Public Servants.

Small wonder the staff are in revolt.

He also said on Morning Ireland that this initiative is not about moving people, but moving posts [ I'm paraphrasing there, but that is what I understood him to have said ].

I can't believe how he is getting away with saying some of the things he says. At no point has he said what those left in Dublin will be doing when their "posts" have moved and the anti-decentralisation lobby seem to be banging on the wrong door by citing promotions....they should be saying about the absolute waste of Human Resources and thus Public Money that will ensue by paid employees sitting in Dublin doing nothing.....not to mention the psychological effect this will have on those individuals.

Dinarius

It is very interesting to compare the relative impact (pun intended) of the public and civil service unions.

Of course, having sold their members down the river (Please! Please! Please! remember this when some idiot puts himself forward for re-election in any of the Civil Service unions. Use your vote wisely.) the Civil Service unions have to pretty much sit tight. IMPACT on the other hand are fighting tough. Good on them.

Lots of coverage today on both Joe Duffy and Five Seven Live.

Ahern knows better than anyone that elections are won and lost in Dublin. Holding the futures of thousands of civil servants to ransom, in order to force through the transfer of about 6,000 is an outrageous slur on everything the civil service stands for. I can't wait for one of his morons to arrive on my doorstep next year.

D.

NewDubliner

The news on the purging of all IT work from Dublin has been very quiet of late & not a peep has been heard of 'World Class Data-Centers'.

Then there's the strange situation of programmers and sysetms analysts working in IT, who, since the PSEU sell-out, are general-service. These are being classified as 'IT Specialists' for decentralisation purposes & will probably be blocked from an early escape.

I half-heard a rumour on on the Luas that the DOF competition for AP (IT) in Kildare failed to find any suitable candidates for appointment/promotion, anyone know if it's true?

publicjobs.ie is advertising for AOs in IT.

Macy

eigrod wrote:

I can't believe how he is getting away with saying some of the things he says. At no point has he said what those left in Dublin will be doing when their "posts" have moved and the anti-decentralisation lobby seem to be banging on the wrong door by citing promotions....they should be saying about the absolute waste of Human Resources and thus Public Money that will ensue by paid employees sitting in Dublin doing nothing.....not to mention the psychological effect this will have on those individuals.

SIPTU have been raising what happens to those that stay, but the actual FAS dispute is over the promotional issue - since that's the case SIPTU won in the Labour Court, the recommendation of which Finance are refusing to let FAS Management implement (so hence the industrial action). Makes you wonder the intelligence of Parlon and Cowen, when they could make this dispute end and be out of the media in no time

Dinarius wrote:

IMPACT on the other hand are fighting tough. Good on them.

However, it would be nice of McLoone to be as vocal as O'Donnell on the issue...

I believe the CPSU and PSEU dublin membership are equally anti this, but some of the tatics employed to supress this resistance, or even the debate in these two unions should worry their whole membership (affected by decentralisation or not).

TempestSabre

Is the issue promotional? I thought it was that they had changed the contracts without agreement breaking previous agreements with the unions. The result of which is that promotions are effectively blocked, and that decentralisation is effectly non voluntary. The semi state staff do not have the transfer options of the civil service. Maybe thats being pedantic.

New_Departure06

Move!

Hotblack Desiato

New_Departure06 wrote:

Move!
__________________
"We declare the right of the people of Ireland to the ownership of Ireland, and to the unfettered control of Irish destinies, to be sovereign and indefeasible. The long usurpation of that right by a foreign people and government has not extinguished the right, nor can it ever be extinguished except by the destruction of the Irish people." (1916 Proclamation)

We declare the right of the people of Dublin to the ownership of Dublin, and to the unfettered control of Dublin's destiny, to be sovereign and indefeasible. The long usurpation of that right by a rural people and government has not extinguished the right, nor can it ever be extinguished except by the destruction of the Dublin people.

Hotblack Desiato

Macy wrote:

I believe the CPSU and PSEU dublin membership are equally anti this, but some of the tatics employed to supress this resistance, or even the debate in these two unions should worry their whole membership (affected by decentralisation or not).

Too right.

The PSEU in particular have been put to shame by AHCPS, IMPACT and SIPTU and maintain the ludicrous policy of being "neither for nor against decentralisation" in spite of the fact that thousands of Dublin members are seeing their careers being sold down the river.

TempestSabre

New_Departure06 wrote:

Move!

Is that a sound bit vs a sound byte?

zuma

I have not read the entire thread as its HUGE....but I say they should move or loose their job!

If it was a private company that decided to move somewhere else in Ireland then people wouldnt have a choice!

TempestSabre

A private company wouldn't be so wasteful with share holders money. Moving a company to an unattractive location, which will cost more money operationally over the coming decades and losing people with decades of experience, all for the sake of gaining a few votes. But then the politicians aren't paying for it, the taxpayer is. You might aswell give everyone early retirement, did a big hole in the ground and burn about a billion euro.

The_Conductor

zuma wrote:

I have not read the entire thread as its HUGE....but I say they should move or loose their job!

If it was a private company that decided to move somewhere else in Ireland then people wouldnt have a choice!

I worked for a private company prior to joining the civil service. My company moved from Sandyford Industrial Estate to beyond Swords. In recognition of this I was given an additional allowance in recognition of my having to travel a greater distance (if I chose to stay with the company). It worked out at about 300 a month after tax.

Decentralisation is allegedly an entirely voluntary activity with *no* financial recompense to those who *choose* to decentralise. On the contrary- the implications of not decentralising are such that far from it being a voluntary activity for a lot of people, we are instead being coerced.

I resigned from my job in the private sector and took a job in the civil service accepting a 10,000 drop in gross pay (when my job was once again being moved- this time to India though). I was willing to take a 10,000 cut in pay- this was a price I was willing to pay for security. That security I now find does not exist. Assurances that you will be treated "in an equitable manner" mean absolutely nothing. Ditto suggestions that we all stay quiet until the election is over- so as not to rock the political boat. I'm not a politician, I don't care tuppence for the promises of politicians- unfortunately I've heard a few too many broken promises.

I am not going to repeat everything in this thread again.

Did you know there are 997 couples in the civil service among those scheduled to be decentralised. And further that in the majority of these cases that the families will now have both parents working over 80 miles apart from each other (there being no guarantee that people will be offered positions outside of their own departments, and in the case of people who joined the service in the last few years they may be contractually obliged to decentralise to particular locations. In my own case my fiancee is contractually obliged to decentralise to Dundalk, while I have been told I will not be offered a position there (while my own job is going to Portlaoise). My fiancee does not drive. She has a seriously ill parent who she would like to live reasonably close by. Decentralisation is not an option in our case. Resigning and looking for jobs elsewhere appears to be what we may have to do.

A lot of people made choices, and sacrifices, to take jobs in the civil service.
Statements like yours belittle the hard work that a lot of people do.

NewDubliner

zuma wrote:

I have not read the entire thread as its HUGE....but I say they should move or loose their job!

If it was a private company that decided to move somewhere else in Ireland then people wouldnt have a choice!

Perhaps you've just popped in for a bit of drive-by trolling?

Most of the thread deals with countering the lies & spin that the scheme's proponents have employed to persuade the unfortunate taxpayers of this country that the plan is somehow worth the billions in extra taxes they'll have to pay to fund it.

If it was a private company, the project would have been scrapped by now as it has no cost-benefit justification.

New_Departure06

Did you know there are 997 couples in the civil service among those scheduled to be decentralised. And further that in the majority of these cases that the families will now have both parents working over 80 miles apart from each other (there being no guarantee that people will be offered positions outside of their own departments, and in the case of people who joined the service in the last few years they may be contractually obliged to decentralise to particular locations. In my own case my fiancee is contractually obliged to decentralise to Dundalk, while I have been told I will not be offered a position there (while my own job is going to Portlaoise). My fiancee does not drive. She has a seriously ill parent who she would like to live reasonably close by. Decentralisation is not an option in our case. Resigning and looking for jobs elsewhere appears to be what we may have to do.

Well if you are not willing to move then why not just commute to the new locations? You seem to want to have your cake and eat it!

I think industrial action over this issue could actually help the govt in rural constituencies as it will be seen as evidence the govt ia prepared to ruffle feathers to get decentralisation.

zuma

NewDubliner wrote:

Perhaps you've just popped in for a bit of drive-by trolling?

Is that your attempt to claim the high moral ground?

Look, move or loose your job!
Then again the government is too scared to start firing people, even if they deserve it!

So what do you propose the people who refuse to leave Dublin do as the idea of decentralisation isnt going to disappear anytime soon!

Hotblack Desiato

How would you like a government decree ordering you to move to the other end of the country?
It's different when it's other people, isn't it.
As a taxpayer you should be questioning what the implications are going to be of the most expensive vote-buying exercise ever conducted.
The section I work in (not due to decentralise) has already suffered a serious loss of expertise as a result of decentralisation transfers, resulting in increased use of consultants and more expenditure of taxpayers' money to do the same work. Clever eh.