Decentralisation

TempestSabre

I don't that much experience of the public sector, but promotions can take a very long time in some places. Recruitment embargo and lack of opportunities means people don't move on, and there aren't new position being recruited.

Really depends on the specific area you are in. I think its all a bit of guesswork at the moment. I think the public sector positions in Dublin will get fewer and fewer over the next decade or so.

For many they have too many ties to move, and the remote locations are not attractive either to a family or single people. I think its very individual decision.

Hotblack Desiato

It could be a case of damned if you do, damned if you don't.

If you go - you will be leaving behind your home, family, friends etc. and a job which presumably you enjoy, and moving to a location you don't seem very enthusiastic about. You could end up doing a job you hate working for a complete a**e of an AP, a friend of mine's life was made a misery by just such a person, not bullying but not far off it and very unpleasant. Your prospects of further promotion in the new location will be very limited so you'll have to move again (outside Dublin) if you succeed in promotion. There again you could end up working with great people doing a job you really enjoy, but it's a lottery, and shifting an unsuitable manager from a decentralised location is more difficult than it is in Dublin. If you end up working for one there is likely nothing you'll be able to do about it.

If you stay - there will be a big surplus of Dublin HEOs post-decentralisation, so promotional vacancies in Dublin will be very limited. How long this situation will go on for is anyone's guess but it's likely to be at least 5 years. By then you'll be well up the EO scale so the financial benefit of promotion will be reduced. Most importantly, you already own your own home for a few years so the mortgage should be affordable.

My advice - stay put unless there is a compelling reason to move. As a HEO I'd say - if you can afford to stay an EO and like your job, stay where you are. The money on offer isn't always worth the grief associated with managing staff, projects etc. There's a hell of a lot to be said for going in, doing what you're told and going home and letting the HEOs and APs worry about risk, staffing, management etc. etc.

The_Conductor

Very good way of putting it.....

On top of everything else though is the fact that some of the government Departments have withdrawn from the Dublin based DCAF system altogether, as they were unable to get staff in who were willing to transfer to backfill/replace staff offered transfers to other Departments.

Aka there are a finite number of Dublin based civil servants willing to transfer to specific locations- as anyone could have predicted right from the very beginning.

NewDubliner

smccarrick wrote:

On top of everything else though is the fact that some of the government Departments have withdrawn from the Dublin based DCAF system altogether,

The DCAF is pointless if you're an IT specialist. Since the government has decided to banish all IT specialists from Dublin, applying to the DCAF would be like a turkey voting for Christmas.

First you're agreeing to leave your chosen vocation, second you're volunteering to train your replacement.

The_Conductor

NewDubliner wrote:

The DCAF is pointless if you're an IT specialist. Since the government has decided to banish all IT specialists from Dublin, applying to the DCAF would be like a turkey voting for Christmas.

First you're agreeing to leave your chosen vocation, second you're volunteering to train your replacement.

Its the exact same if you are in a financial role, a scientific role or indeed anything other than a manilla administrative role. I've been told to write a procedure manual to cover every single possible eventuality with my job- given that it involves a lot of things that seldom occur for which there is no precedent and for which there is no particular prescribed course of action- its impossible. Someone somewhere got a bee in their bonnet about anyone being able to do our jobs and ran with it. Unfortunately they are unwilling to acknowledge their mistake- so everyone, including the taxpayer, is going to suffer.....

Victor

smccarrick wrote:

Someone somewhere got a bee in their bonnet about anyone being able to do our jobs and ran with it. Unfortunately they are unwilling to acknowledge their mistake- so everyone, including the taxpayer, is going to suffer.....

Send them a university syllabus.

CathyMoran

Victor wrote:

Send them a university syllabus.

They would not be bright enough to follow it!

what to do?

thanks for the replies.

i guess its a personal choice, i just wanted to hear people's views on the likely future of decentralisation.

i've always planned on going travelling for a year or two or more.

i suppose if i do my three years in the provincial location and take a career break it would be unlikely that i'd be sent back there on returning to the country - i know i'd probably be sent rural - but the location might be better than the current offer.

i think if i turn down the HEO now, i may well be offered it again in two or three years and it will still be to a provincial location even then. so if i take it now, in two or three years i can go travelling and also be elegible to give the AP competitions a bash - as opposed to staying an EO for another two or three years, go travelling and then in six years time be coming back as an EO.

someone mentioned its not worth the extra hassle - from what i've seen (and no offence intended) its a pretty run of the mill midle-management position that wouldn't exactly turn the hair grey. There will always be exceptions, but I think, in general, the HEO grade is fairly simple. I think the same can be said about a lot of AP positions too. As I say though - thats from WHAT I'VE SEEN. I've been in the same Dept. for the last number of years now and the emphasis is on policy work - which is really PO and above - the HEO's are primarily concerned with staffing and ensuring work gets done - in a previous position i had staff in the double figures so that doesn't really bother me. I know the AOs would say they do policy work - but that just doesn't happen from what i've seen - it really is only POs and above - and mostly above PO - that get involved in policy.

thanks again.

CathyMoran

Shane and I have the problem that we are both in different departments, due to be married by the end of the year, on the AO panel and want to make sure that we are not at opposite ends of the country when we move. Would love HEO, it seems like a nice post, AO would definitly suit me but AP would not suit me at the moment as I hope to have kids in the next few years and loosing flexi time would be too hard at the moment unless we both got it and did shorter weeks, the financial loss would be too great otherwise.

I also have a Masters, Grad Dip and will be finishing my second Masters next year, the fact that I never use any of my skills in work drives me batty sometimes but I would still not leave the service, at least I know that I will be able to finish my Masters part time without too much fuss. I have only been an EO for around 2 years but am dying to move up.

Still, my ultimate goal is to to be AP in maybe 10 years?

Victor

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/front/2006/1103/1162507108885.html

Agency due to decentralise leases Dublin offices
Stephen Collins, Political Correspondent

Enterprise Ireland has taken out a 25-year lease on two office blocks in Dublin to accommodate 600 staff, though the State agency is supposed to move to Shannon under the Government's decentralisation programme.

A spokeswoman for Enterprise Ireland confirmed yesterday that the lease had been taken out on office accommodation at East Point in Dublin's docklands in a move designed to bring together all the agency's staff, from four locations in the city.

The spokeswoman said Enterprise Ireland was committed to implementing the direction from the Government, and that the headquarters of the agency should be moved to Shannon but it was not possible to say when the move would take place.

So far just 19 of the 600 members of the agency staff based in Dublin have indicated a willingness to move to Shannon. Under the terms of the Government plan the move can only be made on a voluntary basis.

The disclosure that the agency had taken out a lease on two office blocks in Dublin was made by the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Micheál Martin, in response to a Dáil question from Labour's finance spokeswoman, Joan Burton.

Ms Burton said last night this was yet another example of how the Government's decentralisation programme was now in a complete shambles.

"A 25-year lease for two office buildings would seem to indicate that the programme of decentralisation is not going to take place any time soon, unless the Government plans to duplicate staff at Shannon," she said.

Ms Burton said it was amazing that Mr Martin had sanctioned such a significant lease in the context of the Government's stated decentralisation programme.

"A close reading of the Minister's reply would suggest that facilities will be located at Shannon but they will be to service staff and activities which are already located outside the Dublin area.

"This follows the pattern of what we know to date of the decentralisation of public services outside the Dublin area. People working in agencies like Enterprise Ireland are for family and career reasons reluctant to leave Dublin," said Ms Burton.

In his Dáil response, Mr Martin reiterated that the headquarters of Enterprise Ireland, including 300 posts, would be relocated. He said, however, that the board had decided to bring all Dublin-based staff, currently in four separate locations, together into one Dublin location. The lease had a break clause to allow Enterprise Ireland to manage changes in accommodation levels. Mr Martin said a preferred site for a new headquarters at Shannon had been identified but not yet acquired.

Mr Martin said it was impossible to say when the full move of Enterprise Ireland's headquarters would take place and the timing would be influenced by the level of interest in the Shannon location expressed by applicants seeking a transfer.

The_Conductor

One thing I would check is whether you are eligible for promotion from HEO to AP if you take a career break- as the time on the career break would not normally be reckonable towards tenure at HEO level for promotional (or superannuation) purposes. Clarify this with your Personnel section/union.

Another thing to think about is the PSEU and the AHCPS have both agreed that internal promotions will be subject to candidates undergoing the written examinations of the PAS that apply for external candidates (from next January I believe- feel free to correct me on this though). The entire internal promotional structure is being redesigned- tenure will no longer be a deciding factor at all (other than in determining eligibility to enter the competion in the first instance) merit, as determined in the first instance by examination and in the second instance by interview will hereafter be the determining methods.

Re: Different grades of work- including policy work- where I am COs/SOs would regularly do PQs/Reps EOs/HEOs policy and financial stuff, APs planning POs coordinating- it really depends on where you are and varies significantly from Department to Department. I'm an EO and I attend Council working groups and Commission Management Committees all the time- its part of EO duties here- I am also involved in a shipload of staffing and financial matters- it really depends......

what to do? wrote:

thanks for the replies.

i guess its a personal choice, i just wanted to hear people's views on the likely future of decentralisation.

i've always planned on going travelling for a year or two or more.

i suppose if i do my three years in the provincial location and take a career break it would be unlikely that i'd be sent back there on returning to the country - i know i'd probably be sent rural - but the location might be better than the current offer.

i think if i turn down the HEO now, i may well be offered it again in two or three years and it will still be to a provincial location even then. so if i take it now, in two or three years i can go travelling and also be elegible to give the AP competitions a bash - as opposed to staying an EO for another two or three years, go travelling and then in six years time be coming back as an EO.

someone mentioned its not worth the extra hassle - from what i've seen (and no offence intended) its a pretty run of the mill midle-management position that wouldn't exactly turn the hair grey. There will always be exceptions, but I think, in general, the HEO grade is fairly simple. I think the same can be said about a lot of AP positions too. As I say though - thats from WHAT I'VE SEEN. I've been in the same Dept. for the last number of years now and the emphasis is on policy work - which is really PO and above - the HEO's are primarily concerned with staffing and ensuring work gets done - in a previous position i had staff in the double figures so that doesn't really bother me. I know the AOs would say they do policy work - but that just doesn't happen from what i've seen - it really is only POs and above - and mostly above PO - that get involved in policy.

thanks again.

chuckberry

Victor wrote:

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/front/2006/1103/1162507108885.html

Excellent to see PeeDee's and the other F Fer's being made look like idiots I expect after the next election the decentralisation concept will be quietly left to die a natural death. At least if FF/PD's expect to be re-elected.

So much tax payers money and so little time to squander it!

Lets see now, only 15 per cent of specialist civil servants, and
fewer state agency staff, have volunteered to relocate under the Government’s decentralisation programme.

The decentralisation programme poses unique and insurmoutable problems in the departments that depend heavily on specialists because they
cannot be replaced by other public servants who lack the required skills, qualifications and experience. Local labour markets cannot fill these
specialist posts.

Transferring Dublin based specialists to nonspecialist posts would mean that their skills were lost to the civil service. It would also deprive them of career prospects. The lack of take up among specialist staff means that decentralisation is impractical and idotic (unless you are FF'er or other nefarious type) for a large number of organisations.

On a conservative estimate, and on current Department of Finance CAF figures, decentralisation of civil service organisations with high dependence
on specialists could cost the taxpayer between €51.1 and €65.5 million a year at current salaries and rents.

As a taxpayer in in a profitable enterprise I actively vote against any goverment that squanders my money on mad cap schemes.

The programme will also have a massive negative impact on the already piss poor service quality, mainly due to the creation of skills shortages, upheaval caused by staff transfers etc etc
Many specialist functions would simply collapse. Specialists staff are also concerned that the current proposals will affect their jobs, working conditions and career prospects. Having worked in many areas on contract for the civil service I see their Management has made no concrete proposals to deal with
these issues in negotiations, including in areas where the Decentralisation

Bring on the election please

NewDubliner

chuckberry wrote:

Excellent to see PeeDee's and the other F Fer's being made look like idiots I expect after the next election the decentralisation concept will be quietly left to die a natural death. At least if FF/PD's expect to be re-elected.

I would not be quite as optimistic.

Votes can be gained from the anti-Dublin and the 'bash the overpaid, inefficient civil servants' mob. This could be enough to embolden the government to make the moves compulsory, especially if they scrape through as expected. The resulting mayhem, for example in IT, would open to door to out-sourcing, a veritable wet-dream scenario for the PDs. The idea could be easily sold to the public on the back of the failure of PPARS and PULSE. (Yes, I know these were largely out-sourced, but the public does not appreciate this.)

With so much money sloshing around in the economy, nobody would notice the extra costs.

The opposition is treading carefully in case it alienates the culchie vote.

TempestSabre

Theres lots of ways to spin it.

Macy

NewDubliner wrote:

This could be enough to embolden the government to make the moves compulsory, especially if they scrape through as expected.

They couldn't afford the redundancy that would be due. This is why they keep the pretence of it being voluntary whilst using tools of compulsion like no promotions if you wont go. They will keep doing this until someone takes a constructive dismissal case (some have started, but have suddenly been "looked after" rather than the Government risk it).

NewDubliner

From 'The Times', November 5th:

Scheme to quit Dublin on brink of collapse
Richard Oakley
THE Irish government’s plan to move 10,000 public and civil servants out of Dublin is in danger of collapse because almost two-thirds of technical staff employed in key departments are refusing to apply for jobs outside the capital.

Figures obtained by The Sunday Times reveal that a number of state bodies are unable to complete their planned relocations because of the reluctance of specialist employees such as archeologists, school inspectors and transport officers to leave Dublin.

The figures, collated by the Central Applications Facility (Caf), were omitted from a recent report by the Decentralisation Implementation Group (Dig), which claimed that the process was going to plan. The Caf figures show that up to the end of June, just 368 people had applied for the 1,036 technical and professional civil-service jobs due for relocation in 25 departments.

Peter Clinch, professor of regional and urban planning in University College Dublin, said the figures showed decentralisation was “unravelling” and had the potential, if forced through, to cause serious and costly problems in the civil service.

He described the planned decentralisation process as “one of the most short-sighted, poorly researched and potentially damaging” political decisions since the abolition of domestic rates in 1978. “Despite earlier government figures suggesting a willingness on the part of staff to move out of Dublin, there was always a suspicion that people wanted to move to specific places rather than move to where their skills were most required,” Clinch said.

“On the basis of these figures, it seems likely that the implementation of the plan would require significant additional and wasteful expenditure on hiring and retraining staff in order to fill the unwanted vacancies. There will be further waste involved in continuing to pay those who remain in Dublin but no longer have the responsibilities they had before.”

The revelation that a majority of technical staff have refused to quit their Dublin offices is the second blow to decentralisation in a week. On Friday it emerged that Enterprise Ireland, the state body that is supposed to be relocating to Shannon, has signed a 25-year lease on two office blocks in Dublin to house 600 staff.

Just 19 of the agency’s staff have said they are willing to move and Enterprise Ireland said it was not possible to say when relocation would take place. Micheal Martin, the minister with responsibility for the agency, said a new headquarters at Shannon was identified “but not yet acquired”.

There is a growing belief in political circles that the decentralisation plan, developed in secrecy before being unveiled by Charlie McCreevy in his December 2003 budget speech, will be scaled down significantly after next year’s general election. The figures obtained by The Sunday Times indicate that continuing with the process as currently planned may be impossible anyway.

The Department of the Environment, for example, is short of 128 workers for its move to the south east. The Department of Agriculture still needs 103 technical workers to apply for posts being decentralised to Portlaoise, Macroom and Fermoy, while the Office of Public Works is short of 99 personnel for its relocations to Claremorris, Kanturk and Trim.

The shortage is particularly severe in the Department of Education — not a single school inspector has applied for the 22 posts that are due to be relocated to Mullingar. There is a similar situation in the Department of Communications — no geologists have applied for 15 posts due to be moved to Cavan. The environment department still requires 16 archeologists to move to Waterford.

The Caf figures show that there were no suitable applicants for the 17 transport officers required by the Department of Transport in Loughrea and that there had been no applicants for the 11 laboratory attendant jobs sought by the Department of Agriculture in Macroom.

In addition to a dearth of applications for posts considered crucial to the successful running of these and other departments, the figures also show that 488 technical and professional staff have indicated they want to move to places where they are not needed.

According to Louise O’Donnell, the national secretary of the trade union Impact, the situation proves the decentralisation plan is a “mess” and that the government claims of progress “make little sense”. She said that even when one examines the situation of the 500 staff who have already been moved, it appears that these include only 20% of technical and professional staff.

O’Donnell said: “We have assurances that the process will remain voluntary and that people will be allowed to continue working in Dublin until they are found the same work. Only then can their jobs move to a new location and be filled by someone else.”

The recent report from Dig said that decentralisation is “progressing well”, although only 500 have moved so far and it predicts that just 2,000 will have moved by the end of 2007.

The Sunday Times previously reported that almost half the people who wanted to decentralise already live outside Dublin.

Rael

Folks,

I have a question for ya.

I'm currently in with a small chance of an AO's job in the IT section in Revenue. I was wondering if you guys could answer some questions?

1. Revenue is due to decentralise to Kildare, what are the chances of this happening, when is it due to happen and where in Kildare is it decentralising to?

2. I'd like to get involved eventually in policy formulation and legislation, how hard is it to get out of the IT section in Revenue. could the move be considered an end to my ambitions

3. What is it like to work there, if there's anyone here that can answer the question?

4. Whats the feeling and likelihood of the decentralisation of Revenue actually taking place? I'm a Dub at heart and would like to stay home but the pay increase would be substantial

Cheers,

Rael

NewDubliner

You're in luck, I know somebody that works there.

Rael wrote:

1. Revenue is due to decentralise to Kildare, what are the chances of this happening, when is it due to happen and where in Kildare is it decentralising to?

Due to start 2009, subject to DOF approval for the (very expensive) plan. No known location. Possibly beside the meat factory. 85% of specialist IT staff don't want to go.

Rael wrote:

2. I'd like to get involved eventually in policy formulation and legislation, how hard is it to get out of the IT section in Revenue. could the move be considered an end to my ambitions

Virtually impossible. There's just been carnage in the internal HEO-AP competition, IT candidates fared really badly. You'll be stuck there. And you won't learn anything that will help you progress, see below.

Rael wrote:

3. What is it like to work there, if there's anyone here that can answer the question?

Most of the new high-tech work is done by Accenture. Ditto for project-management. I'm not sure what an AO would do there. Maybe some filing. The chances of of existing staff happily training you in IT/Analyst work would be about the same as a turkey voting for Christmas.

Rael wrote:

4. Whats the feeling and likelihood of the decentralisation of Revenue actually taking place? I'm a Dub at heart and would like to stay home but the pay increase would be substantial

It's government policy and FF/PD look likely to get re-elected. Kildare is an important consituency. Tom Parlon is very anxious to demolish the computer centre so he can build a huge office block on the site.

The_Conductor

Strictly speaking under Towards 2016 we are supposed to have full cross-streaming of promotional posts, so in theory you would be able to go for an admin AP post, if and when they came up (unlikely to be for a while). We are now recruiting at up to PO level externally though- so the opportunities of the past, are unfortunately in the past (all internal promotions are subject to the same competition rules as the external competitions are- unlike in the past where term of tenure was often a deciding factor).

I was talking to Personnel in Revenue with similar questions myself (I was trying to go in as EO ICT with a stab at the external AO ICT competition when they call the first batch to interview in 2-3 weeks time). I was told that certain areas would be far more amenable to transfers out of IT than others (the Audit Section being sold as a good possibility). Its a mute point in my case, as my own Department have refused to release me- roll on the AO interviews......

Speaking of the AO ICT Revenue positions- does anyone have any idea what to expect in the presentation part of the interview. I did the AO Finance Officer but was told there would be a very different presentation for this one?

Cheers,

Shane

very miffed dub

Update

I jumped rather than wait on the 'TITANIC' to sink because the stress it was causing was unbearable. I got an internal transfer and started in another section in the same Department on Monday. This section is also due to decentralise in 2009 or thereabouts. Hopefully Decentralisation will be dead in the water by this time.

I will not go through all this again. The unions are a complete waste of time. I'm cancelling my membership of the PSEU this week.

I would rather be working in my old section but I am now stuck in a section I don't want to be in because of the STUPID politicians.

I'm going to give it a few months and weigh up all the pros and cons before deciding whether to abandon the Civil Service forever.

Thank you Fianna Fáil for screwing up my life and my families lives for the last three years!!!!

Thanks for letting me rant

A Very MIFFED Dub

The_Conductor

very miffed dub wrote:

Thank you Fianna Fáil for screwing up my life and my families lives for the last three years!!!!

Thanks for letting me rant

A Very MIFFED Dub

Well you know what to do- make them pay for it at the next elections. Get every family member who is entitled to vote to the local ballot stations and spread the news.

Hotblack Desiato

very miffed dub wrote:

The unions are a complete waste of time. I'm cancelling my membership of the PSEU this week.

Please write to the union HQ and tell them what you are doing and WHY

There is no hope for change as long as they can claim to be representing the wishes of members

Apathetic Dublin branches / members are out-voted and out-manouevred by motivated, vocal, rural branches who are strongly in favour of more mobility in 'country' posts and damn the consequences to the membership as a whole

I have seen this at union ADC and attempting to put the case forward for Dublin members is almost impossible, those who tried were ruled out of order and shouted at and ridiculed

Believe me you are by no means the only one jumping ship (and why remain in an organisation working against your interests?) and many more, including activists and committee members, are considering it. When enough members leave to start to threaten the fat pension funds of the union officials, then they will take notice - that will be too late to salvage the careers of thousands of us, though.

Edit: several members have told me the only reason they are remaining in the union is the Income Continuance Plan... no wonder HQ pushes it so hard...

pete

ninja900 wrote:

Edit: several members have told me the only reason they are remaining in the union is the Income Continuance Plan... no wonder HQ pushes it so hard...

the only reason i haven't left the PSEU yet is because there's nowhere else to go.

TempestSabre

pete wrote:

the only reason i haven't left the PSEU yet is because there's nowhere else to go.

I think a few in our office left and went to Siptu.

holly_johnson

Siptu? I didn't think they'd represent us. If they did, how much pulling power would they have? Would they have seats at Departmental Council meetings etc?

TempestSabre

holly_johnson wrote:

Siptu? I didn't think they'd represent us. If they did, how much pulling power would they have? Would they have seats at Departmental Council meetings etc?

I'm a semi state...

holly_johnson

TempestSabre wrote:

I'm a semi state...

Ah, all becomes clear.

Rael

NewDubliner wrote:

It's government policy and FF/PD look likely to get re-elected. Kildare is an important consituency. Tom Parlon is very anxious to demolish the computer centre so he can build a huge office block on the site.

Where exactly is the computer Centre for Revenue located? I'm interested in order to figure out travelling time etc


Cheers,

Rael

NewDubliner

Rael wrote:

Where exactly is the computer Centre for Revenue located? I'm interested in order to figure out travelling time etc

Revenue IT staff are in two locations: Computer Centre near Heuston Station and other offices in Sth Great Georges Street.

My guess is that you'd be based in George's Street while they prepare you for the advance party of sacrificial IT staff to go to Kildare Town.

Hotblack Desiato

I used to work in Revenue IT in Sth Gt Georges St

Pure speculation of course - but I reckon that although John's Rd will be sold (financially it's a compelling move) Revenue IT will never leave Dublin. The staffing problems will be immense and even Parlon (who will be lucky to survive the election) can't bull**** his way out of this one.

Department of Finance will put the kybosh on anything that could possibly disrupt the smooth flow of our money into their coffers...

NewDubliner

ninja900 wrote:

Pure speculation of course - but I reckon that although John's Rd will be sold (financially it's a compelling move) Revenue IT will never leave Dublin. The staffing problems will be immense and even Parlon (who will be lucky to survive the election) can't bull**** his way out of this one.

Word in the industry is that the computer centre move would be lucky to break even. That is to say, the cost of moving would more or less equal the profit from redeveloping the site. That's before staff-loss costs and risk-related losses are factored in.

Hotblack Desiato

NewDubliner wrote:

Word in the industry is that the computer centre move would be lucky to break even. That is to say, the cost of moving would more or less equal the profit from redeveloping the site. That's before staff-loss costs and risk-related losses are factored in.

Good point - but Parlon et al just see the €€€€ signs from property sell-offs and don't even consider staff related costs. Sure we're all interchangeable pegs which can be fitted into any hole (pun intended, given some of the locations on offer) no problem at all, as far as they're concerned

NewDubliner

From the Sunday Tribune, Nov 12th, The writer has actually been quite kind in omitting more embarrassing facts. But in any case, 'BertieWorld' may explain why the average citizen is not demanding that the money be spent on more worthwhile projects:

Reality is whatever Bertie wants it to be
Michael Clifford

IT WAS Maureen Dowd who coined the phrase 'BushWorld'. She wrote in the New York Times that a staffer in the White House told her the administration creates its own reality. "It's their world, we only live and die in it, " Dowd wrote. The real world is irrelevant. The administration ignores facts. It creates its own reality."

Keep on delivering the message, robustly, repeatedly, and it becomes fact. Whoosh!

Magic!

It's not as crazy as it seems. The media is a pussycat when it comes to government creating, rather than accepting, reality.

Twenty-four hour news needs to be fed constantly. The soundbite is king. The room for analysis is squeezed, reflection is left behind. Keep saying it and it becomes reality in the minds of the electorate.

As a form of spin, it has caught on this side of the Atlantic. Over here, we have 'BertieWorld', where facts are irrelevant, the message is all that matters, and if you keep saying it, the message becomes reality.

[edit]

Then we have BertieWorld's appearance at last Saturday's party conference. Cowen told John Bowman on RTE Radio that decentralisation was on course as planned, or at least, as planned in the latest revision. He said it and said it again.

Pesky reality: Enterprise Ireland has taken out a 25year lease on a building in Dublin designed to house 600 staff, despite plans to move to Shannon. Just 19 personnel have applied for the move.

In the vital area of technical and professional specialist staff, just 368 have applied for the 1,036 positions due to be decentralised. The whole programme is a shambles.

Yet Brian says the job is oxo.

Keep saying it and it becomes true, and if reality has to impinge on BertieWorld, it certainly won't be showing its face this side of the election.

[/edit]

Macy

I'm sure the 6 out of 400 that have volunteered to go are gutted....

Parlon's plans for Fas HQ scuppered by sale of site
Martin Frawley

THE long-running attempt by Fas to move to Birr, Co Offaly took another twist last week when the site it had secured in the midlands town was sold to a property developer.

The surprise development will be an acute embarrassment to the junior minister in charge of decentralisation, Tom Parlon, who has trumpeted the Fas move, involving over 400 staff, into the heart of his own constituency.

Over two years ago, Fas put down a deposit on a site just outside Birr for its new headquarters. It agreed to pay 1.5m for the site or around 300,000 an acre . . . more per acre than the Department of Justice paid for the site of the new prison in Thornton Hall, north Co Dublin.

The five-acre site was part of a 25-acre site owned by the voluntary housing agency Respond.

The Fas/Respond agreement was subject to planning permission and rights of way issues which sparked legal tussles over the last couple of years. A major dispute emerged as to who would build and maintain an access road to the site, without which the Fas headquarters would be effectively marooned.

While the row dragged on, Fas also became immersed in a bitter industrial dispute with its staff about the move to the midlands.

Then, last week, Respond returned the state agency's deposit and said it had sold the entire 25-acre site to a property developer.

More at www.tribune.ie

RainyDay

RTE 1 6 pm TV news had the first in a 2-part report on decentralisation tonight. Nothing particularly new, but it was fairly blunt on the impracticalities of the current scheme. It should be available on the RTE website.

TempestSabre

It seems that what will happen is that various departments and or agencies will rent space in Dublin to replace their buildings that have been sold off. At the same time they'll rent/buy more office space in the new location and move some staff down there, and even if its a tiny fraction of the original numbers, and the majority remain in Dublin, they'll claim its a success even its a disaster.

Schuhart

RainyDay wrote:

It should be available on the RTE website.

Its about half way down this page. As you say, nothing new but still very much posing the question of why are we combusting so much money on something so irrelevant.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2006/1127/6news.html

TempestSabre

Its a political play pure and simple. It makes no sense from any other angle.

No ones doing the maths and no one wants to do it. Show me the Money!

NewDubliner

6.1 news ran another report on 'decentralisation', today 28th Nov. They rather kindly described the Tullamore move as a success (The PO is really pleased...what a surprise) but without reference to costs or the number of people who'd moved house from Dublin.

I can see that we'll have plenty more 'successes' like this in the future, once the government has made people forget the objectives of the project.

NewDubliner

More progress on 'Decntralisation', the project which was to move people and their jobs out of Dublin

From the Examiner:

Cork decentralisation
Examiner
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006
Staff training, recruitment and procurement are continuing for the decentralisation of 100 Department of Agriculture and Food personnel from the Cork office to Fermoy, and the relocation in Macroom project of three laboratories in Cork and three in Limerick.

A land swap with the Office of Public Works for social housing awaits the relocation of laboratories at Model Farm Road, Cork, to Macroom.

Schuhart

NewDubliner wrote:

6.1 news ran another report on 'decentralisation', today 28th Nov. They rather kindly described the Tullamore move as a success (The PO is really pleased...what a surprise) but without reference to costs or the number of people who'd moved house from Dublin.

The second report is here.

So the basic message is that the programme is a success because a guy with a
€100,000 salary plus defined benefits pension can get a shorter commute. How is this a priority?

Victor

Schuhart wrote:

How is this a priority?

Paid up FF member.

NewDubliner

From the "Irish Times", the spin-doctors seem to have got one over as there's no mention of training costs nor if the new staff are new-hires.

Data offices to relocate with only one of its Dublin staff
Irish Times
Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2006, by John Downes
Almost all staff members at the new offices of the Data Protection Commissioner, which are due to be officially opened by Tanaiste Michael McDowell in Portarlington, Co Laois, in 10 days' time, are newly employed.

This is because 21 of the Dublin-based agency's 22 staff refused to move there earlier this year under the Government's decentralisation plan.

At a conference in Dublin yesterday, the Data Protection Commissioner, Billy Hawkes, said that "almost 100 per cent" of the staff in his office were new to the job.

Last night, he said just one of his previous 22 staff - who are currently based in Abbey Street in Dublin - had chosen to relocate to the Co Laois town.

The offices open on Monday, with the official opening by Mr McDowell a week later.

Describing the move to Portarlington as "positive decentralisation", Mr Hawkes said he was "very happy" with the quality of staff recruited.

However, he acknowledged that he was sad to see some of his "excellent" older staff leave. While some of the new posts were oversubscribed, in other instances there was a "limited choice" of applicants for some posts at the new offices.

He said he had largely expected that few if any of his former staff would be willing to take part in the decentralisation process.

"Most of them were based in Dublin. So basically the chances of them wanting to go to Portarlington were quite small," he said.

"This is positive decentralisation. We are an independent office which can operate anywhere. This means that our office is full of staff who are rearing to go and who want to be in Portarlington.

"I'm not pretending it has been easy, but there are also positives that come with new staff. We have put in place crash programmes to train up the new staff, and they're responding very well to that."

Most of his former staff, who work as general civil servants, have been redeployed within the Department of Justice, Equality and Law reform and its agencies, according to Mr Hawkes.

Among the roles performed by employees of the Data Protection Commissioner's office are the provision of a help desk and website, and dealing with complaints and investigations on behalf of the public.

TempestSabre

I think the suggestion is 21 out of 22 are new. Thats obviously what they mean by positive decentralisation. New staff in new offices, but retain the old staff in Dublin.

holly_johnson

hmmm that article is interesting. I wonder how Mr Hawkes is communting? I know he lived in Dublin 15; so has he "upped sticks"? I doubt it.

vesp

Cannot believe the number of posts on this. Given the much higher property prices / office rents / commuting times etc in Dublin, and the amount of country folk working in Dublin who want to work closer to home, surely the logical thing is decentralisation ? It would save a fortune in commuting / help the environment / save money. Especially in these days of e-mail etc when you can work from anywhere. ( Even many call centres are now located in India etc ). A few govt employees tell me the objections are to do with looking for Com-PEN-SayTION for moving.

The_Conductor

vesp wrote:

Cannot believe the number of posts on this. Given the much higher property prices / office rents / commuting times etc in Dublin, and the amount of country folk working in Dublin who want to work closer to home, surely the logical thing is decentralisation ? It would save a fortune in commuting / help the environment / save money. Especially in these days of e-mail etc when you can work from anywhere. ( Even many call centres are now located in India etc ). A few govt employees tell me the objections are to do with looking for Com-PEN-SayTION for moving.

Compensation my arse.
Its to do with people living in communities where they have deep roots and where they would have difficulties laying down a similar support structure elsewhere.

It is not a simple case of a large number of country folk living in Dublin who are unwilling to move- indeed- had you read this thread you would see that the proposed decentralisation is in actual fact the fourth decentralisation scheme- at present slightly over 70% of the civil service (and over 90% of some departments) are actually outside of Dublin already.

The Unions have actually argued cases in favour of e-working arrangements, and these are being quite successfully rolled out, after trials, in a number of departments (however its not entirely e-working normally it entails working from the office two days a week- which is something that should be encouraged in my mind?)

The main argument against decentralisation- totally aside from the scheme being a cynical exercise in vote buying, is on cost grounds. It is not an exercise in getting people from Dublin to move down the country- its an exercise in jobs already down the country being shuffled around the place, with no concern for expertise being lost with movement all over the place.

There is an argument being made that expertise is only a concern when the staff concerned are technical in nature- that all other staff are totally interchangeable- unfortunately- as time will show- this is utter and total bull****......

Hotblack Desiato

vesp wrote:

Given the much higher property prices / office rents / commuting times etc in Dublin, and the amount of country folk working in Dublin who want to work closer to home, surely the logical thing is decentralisation ?

So, explain to me, if Dublin is filled with country people dying to get 'back home', why have so few Dublin-based civil servants applied to do so?
All that is really happening with this programme is that rural-based civil servants are playing musical chairs, going from one non-Dublin job to another.

It would save a fortune in commuting / help the environment / save money.

Some people are shortening their commute; others are greatly lengthening it so they can live in one-off houses in the a**e-hole of nowhere - how does that help the environment?
Saving money - that's a good one. There are huge costs associated with training staff moving jobs, loss of expertise/corporate memory, and ultimately keeping a few thousand Dublin staff on the books even though there's no longer any work in Dublin for them to do. All of these costs are being hushed up.

Especially in these days of e-mail etc when you can work from anywhere.

A brilliant point was made on Morning Ireland recently about decentralisation and the guff that videoconferencing etc. will solve everything.
The interviewee said - If videoconferencing etc. is so good, why do RTE much prefer interviewees to be present in person and not on the end of a phone? Touchê.

There are massive costs associated with the current decentralised offices, never mind the future ones - plenty of senior civil servants spend a great deal of time travelling up and down to Dublin. This costs a fortune in travel expenses and lost productivity, but this is all forgotten when decentralisation is proclaimed as a "great success".

( Even many call centres are now located in India etc ).

And what an excellent service they provide - NOT.

A few govt employees tell me the objections are to do with looking for Com-PEN-SayTION for moving.

This is complete grade A horses**t.
As has been stated from day 1 and repeatedly since, there is, and will be, NO compensation on offer (though there will be promotions of people not worthy of promotion but willing to move - how's that going to improve service delivery?)

Perhaps you are confused, there is a row at the moment about expenses for staff from non-Dublin locations who have to move to Dublin for 2-3 months to be trained into their new job.

If you need to stay in Dublin becase:
- you will be massively hit by stamp duty by buying another house
- your family and friends are all here
- your kids are happy in school and don't want to move away from all their friends
- you need to be near to elderly parents
- etc. etc.

then NO amount of compensation will solve these problems.

Is it only "country" people who are allowed to have close ties with their family and their locality and community? Believe it or not, Dublin people have ties too.

vesp

ninja900 wrote:

Dublin people have ties too.

Nobody is forcing them to move. They can spend half the day sitting in traffic for as long as they like, commuting to offices which the taxpayer has to pay more for than similar spec offices in the country. They are not going to be laid off or replaced by foreign based workers. They can continue being inefficient.

NewDubliner

vesp wrote:

They can spend half the day sitting in traffic for as long as they like,

Perhaps they don't. Perhaps they have 30-40 minute commutes on public transport or bicycle? Many do.

vesp wrote:

offices which the taxpayer has to pay more for than similar spec offices in the country.

The current plan will mean that offices in Dublin and down the country will have to be maintained. Anyway, building rents are a small part of costs.

vesp wrote:

They are not going to be laid off or replaced by foreign based workers.

IT will be outsourced and the existing IT staff will be removed from their jobs as no suitable replacements will be found at the rates offered. It's inevitable that the work will be outsourced & off shored. At least one government department is already out-sourcing programming work to China.

You've overlooked the skills loss issues, the taxpayer will have to pay three times over. Once to suffer drop in service, once again to retrain provincial workers and one more time for the 'white-walled' Dubliners.

You've also overlooked that all decentralisation plans to date have resulted in cost-overruns and increases in public-service numbers. There is no documented evidence that the benefits have been worth the cost.

There is also no evidence that the current plan will be worth it. Instead of rational arguments, all that's been put forward by its supporters are wild guesses and 'wishful thinking'.