Decentralisation

TempestSabre

vesp wrote:

Not for you but it is for the taxpayer. The taxpayer demands a more cost effective, more efficient public service. The many people from around the country who have to work in Dublin often would give their right arm to work near their communities, and not to have to commute to Dublin to work....more often than not by motor vehicle. The commuter in Dublin deserves less congestion on the roads.

10,000 or even 20,000 isn't going to have any effect on congestion. But you've been told that already.

So you're suggestion to make it more efficient is to lose the experienced staff and replace them with new inexperienced staff the main criteria for their suitablility being there they live, not their experience or qualifications which will be secondary.

To be honest the new immigrants are likely to be more qualified than the locals, so I can't see you'll get 10,000 new jobs for locals either.

But once all the departments are all around the country instead of walking across town for a meeting and it taking up an afternoon. You'll have people driving all over the country becaue nothing will be near anything. Staying overnight claiming expenses, and losing two days for the same meeting. Can't see that being more cost efficient, or productive, But maybe it will be.

I don't understand why people are so against people keeping early hours. Do you think all those civil servants keeping 9-5 hours would help with the congestion you keep referring too? Why not have people work 7 to 3 if that suits them? If extended opening hours are needed do you think there is not cost for opening these hours.

oscarBravo

vesp banned for a week for trolling - you can't say you weren't warned.

RainyDay, don't accuse people of trolling, thanks - that's my job.

NewDubliner

The strange thing about this project is that if you ask almost anyone about it, there's a tacit acknowledgment that it's going to fizzle out soon after one or two more photo-opportunities.

Yet, the CAF, official circulars, business plans and risk statements all carry on as if the whole scheme is going to be accomplished by 2009. It's like communist apparatchiks having to profess their tital belief in the '5 year plan' even though, they know it's utter fantasy.

I think this project has been a major wake-up call for those whose jobs are at risk, that the truth can be twisted so freely by ruthless politicians and lobby groups.

Victor

vesp, if you are still reading.

I was at a two-day meeting today of 129 people (plus facilitators, but they could be from anywhere, they just had to be briefed) from Taoiseach, Education, Environment, Transport, Justice, Garda, HSE, NRA, RSA, Bus Eireann, Dublin Bus, Irish Rail, PIAB, several councils, several colleges and a variety of voluntary groups and private companies.

The only practical place to have such a meeting (because video conferencing wouldn't really work) is somewhere on the Dublin-Port Laoise axis (or maybe Dublin-Athlone). Why are we sending people to Youghal, Dungarvan, Cahirciveen and Ballina?

what to do?

posted on this a few pages back.

am a dub, born and bred. totally opposed to decentralisation, in its present format.

however, following this thread for the last month or so, it seems that an awful lot of bashing is going on of anyone who expresses any comment in favour of decentralisation. people being asked to prove their assertions, yet people in the anti-decentralisation camp seem to be making some fairly sweeping statements as well - dont know how to do the quote people thing with the quotes in boxes.

what is trolling by the way??

NewDubliner

what to do? wrote:

posted on this a few pages back.
however, following this thread for the last month or so, it seems that an awful lot of bashing is going on of anyone who expresses any comment in favour of decentralisation. people being asked to prove their assertions,

There has been debate. Statements and assertions have been challenged. If anyone had been 'bashed', they would have been banned. The onus of proof lies with the proponents of the current scheme.

You can't expend lots of money on the basis of favourable comments.

yet people in the anti-decentralisation camp seem to be making some fairly sweeping statements as well

Give examples? (Please do not feel 'bashed'.)

what is trolling by the way??

Pushing assertions without providing reasoned arguments or making statements without attempting to provide evidence or examples to back them up.

In effect: lobbing 'opinion grenades' and running away.

Macy

what to do? wrote:

people being asked to prove their assertions, yet people in the anti-decentralisation camp seem to be making some fairly sweeping statements as well

That's because the costs, the numbers who want to move and the effect on organisational efficiency are clear and have been stated repeatedly. What none of the proponents of decentralisation can come up with are tangible benefits for the state or the organisations involved. If people are going to state that costs will be reduced they should back up their arguement with figures. If they say efficiency will be improved they should explain how. If they say that people from the country want to move home they should show how they come to that conclusion when the CAF are clear there isn't the demand from Dublin based civil and public servants. If people want to argue it supports regional development they should show how, as it's at odds of the National Spatial Strategy.

Do you expect the anti decentralisation side of the debate to disprove figures that the propenents don't even bother producing?

NewDubliner

This letter appeared in the Irish Times, Dec 22, 2006, from the CEO of Concern, it's quite thoughtfully reasoned unlike the abusive remarks of the FF/PD:

Audit of overseas aid
Irish Times
Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006,
Madam, - Paul Cullen's report on the audit of overseas aid raises, two issues of fundamental public importance (The Irish Times, December 19th). The first relates to how effectively Irish taxpayers' money is being spent in the aid programme.

The second relates to the impact of the Government's decentralisation policy.

The current aid programme is recognised, nationally and internationally, as being of high quality. Over the next five years resources for aid will increase substantially as the Government moves to reach the UN target of 0.7 per cent of GNP. The public needs to have confidence that money for aid is being used effectively to respond to emergencies, reduce poverty and promote sustainable development.

If, as the audit report suggests, there are "insufficient checks against fraud and major staff shortages in the evaluation and auditing of aid programmes", such confidence will be undermined. It is incumbent on the Government to put the necessary staff and robust control systems in place.

From Concern's perspective, we would be worried if the reference in the audit report to deficiencies in accounting procedures and internal controls in some of the agencies partnering Irish Aid could be interpreted as a general comment on aid agencies. We know our internal systems and accounting systems are robust and we have regularly won the award for the most transparent accounts for not-for-profit organisations in the annual competition organised by the Leinster Society of Chartered Accountants. We would expect Irish Aid to apply the highest audit and value for money standards to any of its partners, whether aid agencies, UN bodies or governments.

The second issue raised by the audit report is the effect of the decentralisation of Irish Aid to Limerick. Extra costs, loss of experienced staff and a reduction of coherence between the aid programme and foreign policy are identified as potentially significant problems. It will be a major challenge for the aid programme to sustain its quality and impact while expanding rapidly.

Similar issues apply to other parts of the civil and public service which are being decentralised. Decentralisation undoubtedly benefits individuals and towns and cities around Ireland. But the potential costs - loss of experienced staff and corporate memory, increased travel and liaison costs, a reduced "whole of Government" approach to public policy, the negative effect on public sector morale - need to be independently assessed. A rigorous risk analysis, which has clearly not been applied to the decision to move Irish Aid to Limerick, needs to be applied to the whole decentralisation project.

Since becoming chief executive of Concern five years ago, I have scrupulously avoided any comment on aid policy or wider national policy which could be interpreted as being party political. Nor would I wish these comments on decentralisation to be construed in this way. But how decentralisation will affect the long-term capacity of the public sector to formulate policy and deliver services is an issue of strategic national importance which transcends party politics. - Yours, etc,

TOM ARNOLD,

Chief Executive,

Concern,

Dublin 2.

RainyDay

holly_johnson wrote:

hmmm that article is interesting. I wonder how Mr Hawkes is communting? I know he lived in Dublin 15; so has he "upped sticks"? I doubt it.

Looks like Billy Hawkes is indeed commuting in the opposite direction - from http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=9&si=1747059&issue_id=15045 (Registration required);

But in a quirky twist of fate, it is now the two bosses - Commissioner Billy Hawkes and his deputy Gary Davis - who have the longest commute.

Compared to their stressed out employees, their's was always an enviable lot. A quick 20-minute cycle or a half-hour walk and they were at their desks in the old office on Dublin's Abbey Street. Since decentralisation, however, they must add on an hour-long train journey, not that this seems to phase them.

"On the train you can be working on emails, on the blackberry, and scanning the papers. The trains aren't crowded coming this way. It's all quite relaxed and easy. The only problem is I'm not getting as much exercise," joked Mr Hawkes.

NewDubliner

That was a real 'cheerleader' article in the Indo. Not one critical question about how many extra staff had to be hired, nor how much it cost to train them and how the impact on productivity will be measured.

Typical lazy journalism from the Indo, government press office probably figured Christmas/New Year was a good time to slip a spin story past the editors.

holly_johnson

NewDubliner wrote:

That was a real 'cheerleader' article in the Indo. Not one critical question about how many extra staff had to be hired, nor how much it cost to train them and how the impact on productivity will be measured.

Typical lazy journalism from the Indo, government press office probably figured Christmas/New Year was a good time to slip a spin story past the editors.

I couldn't agree more:

The Indo wrote:

The only problem is I'm not getting as much exercise," joked Mr Hawkes.

That makes me sick. funny ha ha. not.

RainyDay

NewDubliner wrote:

That was a real 'cheerleader' article in the Indo. Not one critical question about how many extra staff had to be hired, nor how much it cost to train them and how the impact on productivity will be measured.

Typical lazy journalism from the Indo, government press office probably figured Christmas/New Year was a good time to slip a spin story past the editors.

Loath as I am to defend the Indo, but there was a fairly critical article published on the same day.

Victor

I think there was three articles in total - all on the same page.

NewDubliner

Victor wrote:

I think there was three articles in total - all on the same page.

I don't know about the third article, but the first was a reproduction of spin from the government side, the second was of a statement made by Impact about an unrelated move.

Don't journalists ask questions anymore?

Victor

There was three stories on Decentralisation / Data Protection Commissioner:

Top one was critical of Decentralisation
Bottom one was a feel good / human interest piece on the DPC
Side one was DPC -v- mortgage brokers

NewDubliner

From Today's Irish Times (8/1/2007),

Three thousand Dublin-based civil servants will be left surplus to requirements once the Government's troubled decentralisation programme is completed by 2010, according to new figures, writes Mark Hennessy, Political Correspondent

More than 7,000 State jobs have been, or are to be, moved out of the capital under the programme, which was first unveiled in late 2003 by then minister for finance Charlie McCreevy.

Just 4,275 Dublin-based staff have submitted applications to go to the Department of Finance-run Central Applications Facility, while many hard-to-transfer specialists, such as Ordnance Survey cartographers, are still refusing to move with their jobs.

Five hundred staff have already moved and a further 1,600 officials have transferred between departments in Dublin, where they are slotting into new roles in anticipation of subsequent redeployment to one of 53 locations chosen by the Government.

However, 3,960 officials already working in State offices outside Dublin have applied for transfers to other provincial offices, while just 660 Dublin-based civil servants have applied to fill the vacancies created by these moves.

Seán O'Riordan, general secretary of the Association of Higher and Civil Public Servants, in a newsletter sent to his members, wrote: "This represents the worst nightmare of all from an administrative perspective: not alone will there be substantial surpluses in Dublin but the meeting of targets for new decentralised locations can only be met by creating chaos in the provinces. This is robbing from Peter to half-pay Paul."

About 150 principal officers, each paid between €80,000-€106,000, who are unwilling to leave Dublin, will see their jobs transferred out, without having an already-existing role to fill elsewhere in the capital.

According to officially released figures just one Ordnance Survey Ireland worker in the last 15 months has applied to move to Dungarvan under the Government scheme.

Some 54 new staff have been recruited on the basis that they will transfer out of Dublin.

Hotblack Desiato

More on the 3000 whitebox inmates in today's IT. Also an interesting bit about a planning objection to the Knock offices. Whatever about the total lack of sustainability of building offices in the middle of a bog (valid point, but unfortunately not grounds to refuse planning afaik), if there is insufficient water supply they're snookered on H&S grounds.

Irish Times 9/1/07 wrote:

Surplus civil servants to fill jobs as they arise after decentralisation


Civil servants who are left without jobs after their offices move out of Dublin under the Government's decentralisation plan will fill vacancies as they arise subsequently, the Government has said.

Over 7,000 Civil Service jobs are to be transferred under the plan announced in late 2003, though nearly 3,000 more posts in semi-State organisations and State agencies are also to move.

However, 3,000 Dublin-based civil servants will be left surplus to requirements once the programme is completed by 2010 – a deadline four years later than that originally set by the Government.

Minister for Education Mary Hanafin said yesterday the surplus staff would become part of "a pool" and used to fill other jobs as they arose, adding that three in every 100 State jobs became vacant annually.

By the middle of the year, the Department of Finance believes that 1,000 posts will have been moved to 20 locations, while 29 new offices will have been occupied within 18 months.

By the end of October last year over 2,300 staff had been assigned to posts that are to be moved out of the capital, though only 60 per cent of the new staff were based in Dublin.

The Office of Public Works, which is in charge of finding new offices and getting rid of those being left vacant in Dublin, has bought, or is in the process of buying, 36 properties.

Acknowledging the delays, Minister for Finance Brian Cowen in a recent Dail reply said most transfers now would take place in 2009, rather than in 2008, although matters outside the control of the OPW could cause delays.

One such delay could now affect the transfer of the Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs to Knock airport, following the lodging of a planning objection.

The appeal to An Bord Pleanala against the planning permission offered by Mayo County Council has been lodged by Peter Sweetman & Associates, Lower Rathmines Road, Dublin.

Mayo County Council granted planning permission to the JSL Group Ltd, Lr Salthill, Galway, to build the new offices to house the headquarters of Eamon O'Cuiv's department.

In a letter to the planning appeals board, Mr Sweetman stated that the proposed development, close to an airport runway, could not be considered sustainable development.

Workers in the offices, which are more than five miles from the nearest houses, will have to travel by car, since there is no public transport, while local roads are not suitable for cyclists or pedestrians.

Mr O'Cuiv, who acknowledged that the appeal would delay the project by at least four months, assuming it is lost, said he was disappointed with the appeal but that Mr Sweetman was "fully within his rights".

However, Mr O'Cuiv said he was confident that the appeal would not succeed, adding that decentralisation was Government policy and that the planning appeals board had to take cognisance of that fact.

In his appeal notice, Mr Sweetman said the supply of water to the new offices was uncertain and unable to guarantee sufficient supplies for "a normal firefighting supply".

The offices do not comply, he claimed, with regional planning guidelines.

Hotblack Desiato

Letter in today's Indo. It seems that the tone of articles / letters in the media is at last becoming more realistic / critical as opposed to the reams of unquestioning guff printed in the past.

Irish Independent 9/1/07 wrote:

The truth about decentralisation?

The government website www.decentralisation.gov.ie states that the Minister for Finance Brian Cowen has welcomed the Decentralization Implementation Group's (DIG) report to the effect that "Decentralisation will be a reality in 29 towns by the end of 2007" and that, "progress is well advanced in relation to the civil service aspects of the programme."

The Minister stated that: "the success of the programme can be seen from the fact that decentralisation is now a reality in 12 new locations and that over 2,000 civil servants will have relocated to 29 locations by the end of 2007"

Furthermore, "This steady level of progress is an indication of the level of interest in relocating among civil servants and represents an endorsement of the ability of public service managers to effectively manage the staffing, business and property issues arising.

In continuation, Mr Cowen believes that the delivery time for some locations will lead to a greater concentration of moves in 2009 rather than in 2008, and he was particularly pleased to note that the "target" of 6,800 moves by end 2009 remains "on track".

The Minister stated that his colleague, Minister of State, Tom Parlon, in the Office of Public Works has completed or significantly advanced property acquisitions in over 34 locations.

While the first three paragraphs are amusing, and reflect the Goebellesque style, "The bigger the lie the more believable," in which most of Fianna Fail's dispatches are written nowadays, the last statement is the more frightening because it is truth, and the contracts entered into, may be irrevocable, in the unlikely event of a change of government.

We know who will foot the bill for comrade Ahern's failed Stalinesque decentralisation plans, but who will occupy these 34 palatial monuments now under contract and construction nationwide,if nothing induces the ungrateful Civil Service to reconsider?

Would anybody begrudge the OPW converting them to Palaces to house our Glorious Leader while he visits his loyal subjects? An alternative, more practical possibility of course is to convert the new office blocks into affordable housing units. A little far from Dublin perhaps, but long distance commuting is becoming more and more popular, every year now.

JOHN MCDERMOTT,

PUERTO RICO, GRAN CANARIA

Victor

JOHN MCDERMOTT, PUERTO RICO, GRAN CANARIA

Nice spot, but the commute must be a bitch.

NewDubliner

This from RTE today, more absurdity.

Govt proposes fund for civil move training

10 January 2007 17:00

The Government is proposing to make available a €13 million package of training allowances for public servants who have to train in Dublin before they are relocated from one region to another under the decentralisation scheme.

Traditionally staff requiring such training are not paid normal travel and subsistence allowances, because decentralisation is voluntary and of long-term benefit to the worker.

Up to now, the Government had always stressed that no incentives would be paid to staff to move.

Under the new proposals, staff who have to spend up to eight weeks in Dublin would receive a taxable lump sum of €3,000.

Those spending another nine to 14 weeks in the capital would get a further taxable payment of €2,000.

Any staff requiring further training in Dublin would receive an extra €300 per week - again taxable.

The payments would not apply to staff who live or previously worked within 35 miles of the training site in Dublin.

No standard public service travel and subsistence payments will be made.

The draft memorandum for Cabinet also reveals that the Department of Finance strenuously resisted union demands to allow an arbitrator to adjudicate on the matter.

This was because previous decentralisation allowances had not been taxable, and it was feared that an arbitrator would follow this precedent, increasing the overall cost to the Exchequer of the scheme.

The memorandum estimates the gross cost of the payments at €13 million over three to four years - more than double the original allowance scheme costed at €6 million.

The memorandum also states that the cost of the proposed scheme is significantly less than the estimated €100 million which would be incurred if removal expenses were conceded to decentralising staff.

It says that the Minister for Finance is satisfied that the current proposals are preferable to paying a weekly allowance or travel and subsistence.

Government departments are to be encouraged to minimise the amount of training time required in Dublin to keep costs down.

Macy

NewDubliner wrote:

This from RTE today, more absurdity.

I suppose it's recognition that so many are the "decentralised" staff are already based outside of Dublin, but another cost to go on top of the billions already committed.

gbh

It's going ahead...accept it!

oscarBravo

Insightful and well-thought-out comment there, gbh.

gazzer

I dont know the media have not picked up more on the whole absurdity of this training plan.

The decentralisation plan is meant to move Dublin jobs out of Dublin to around the country.

However now we are been told that staff already working outside Dublin are to come to Dublin to be trained for those jobs.. Surely if this plan was moving ahead correctly there would be nobody coming from outside Dublin to be trained as anybody who needed to be trained would already be in Dublin working and waiting to be moved to wherever the department is going.

Macy

An opportunity to let the politicians know the strength of feeling on the issue.

Public meeting on decentralisation
Date Released: 24 Jan 2007

SIPTU's Dublin Regional Secretary, Patricia King is once again calling on the Government to reverse its decision to include semi-State agencies in its decentralisation programme.

“There is an urgent need for a full public debate on this issue because ultimately it threatens jobs, families and communities,” she said.

SIPTU has called on all TDs in the Dublin, Dunlaoghaire and Rathdown constituencies to attend a public meeting in Liberty Hall on Thursday, February 1, at 6.00pm, to debate this issue and to hear from members and their families how the implementation of this ill-conceived Government plan is affecting their lives

Macy

Meeting went well last night. All opposition representative's promised, at the very least, to carry out a review of Decentralisation as it clearly isn't working, especially for semi states. Some much stronger than that.

Not one Government representative bothered to show (all Dublin TD's were invited). Only 4 of them even bothered to reply to the invite. Remember that contempt when your voting...

gazzer

Damn.. I forgot all about that meeting. Serves me right for not setting a reminder on my mobile.
@Macy.. Was there many there?? Any newspaper/tv coverage??

NewDubliner

From RTE:

Gormley calls for an end to 'Gombeenism'
Saturday, 24 February 2007 15:30

The Green Party chairman, John Gormley, has said his party wants both Fianna Fáil and the Progressive Democrats out of office.

Mr Gormley told the Green party conference in Galway that gombeenism in Government had to end.

He accused the Minister for Justice, Michael McDowell, of sticking with Bertie Ahern no matter what he says or does and labelled the Tánaiste 'the Tammy Wynette of Irish politics', desperately standing by his man.

Mr Gormley said the election had turned into a race to the bottom with promises of tax cuts, saying the politics of the lowest common denominator are irresponsible and an insult to the electorate's intelligence.

...

Earlier, the conference backed a motion calling for an end to the Government's decentralisation policy, which was described as ill-conceived.

Firetrap

From The Sunday Tribune (18th March 2007). Hopefully there's no typos in this

Stay-put public servants to be sent to the fringes of the Pale
Martin Frawley

Public servants determined to remain in Dublin under the government's Decentralisation plan now face being moved to offices on the edge of the capital so the government can sell its properties in prime city-centre locations.

The new "edge" locations include Tallaght, Ashtown Gate on the Navan Road and new offices near the M50 and Luas lines. This will ease commuting problems for public servants and help resolve traffic congestion in the city centre.

Outlining its property plans in a post-decentralised city last week, the OPW said it "has extracted approx €400m over the last two years from property made surplus to requirements by decentralisation and can expect to extract more such value while actively working to accommodate staff in locations which are cost-effective and as well-connected as possible transport-wise.

"In the near future, the OPW will be facing the issue of reallocating property efficiently as large numbers of staff move to their decentralised locations. Based on the above analysis, this office would be seeking to utilise the cheaper properties described above and extract the value from the more expensive properties closer to the centre which might not be needed"

The OPW now believes there is little point in the thousands of civil servants remaining in Dublin rattling around in prime property which could be sold off to developers.

OPW plans to keep the core complex of government offices around Government Buildings/Leinster House and related Dublin 2 and 4 areas. But only specific parts of departments and agencies which have "a clear business need to relate to the centre" should be based there, it added.

NewDubliner

allie_e17 wrote:

Outlining its property plans in a post-decentralised city last week, the OPW said it "has extracted approx €400m over the last two years from property made surplus to requirements by decentralisation

This statement needs closer examination. AFAIK, most of the properties were sites or unoccupied buildings and had nothing to do with decentralisation.

RainyDay

allie_e17 wrote:

From The Sunday Tribune (18th March 2007). Hopefully there's no typos in this

Stay-put public servants to be sent to the fringes of the Pale
Martin Frawley

Public servants determined to remain in Dublin under the government's Decentralisation plan now face being moved to offices on the edge of the capital so the government can sell its properties in prime city-centre locations.

The new "edge" locations include Tallaght, Ashtown Gate on the Navan Road and new offices near the M50 and Luas lines. This will ease commuting problems for public servants and help resolve traffic congestion in the city centre.

The article conveniently omits to mention that commuting problems will only be eased for public servants if they happen to live near to the new offices. Getting across city (e.g. Finglas to Sandyford, or Tallaght to Ashton Gate) is extremely difficult, either on public transport or even by car.

NewDubliner

Also not mentioned is that when the sites that have been sold for some 400 million are developed, there will be a massive increase in commuter traffic through Dublin as yet more workers com in to occupy the new buildings.

So, far from reducing congestion in Dublin, the government plan will increase it.

The spin continues.

Dinarius

NewDubliner wrote:

Also not mentioned is that when the sites that have been sold for some 400 million are developed, there will be a massive increase in commuter traffic through Dublin as yet more workers com in to occupy the new buildings.

So, far from reducing congestion in Dublin, the government plan will increase it.

The spin continues.

In addition to which, most civil servants don't drive anyway. They don't have a parking space and, like most, they couldn't afford 40 hours of street parking per week.

This is little short of criminal. I would almost vote FF if I thought Parlon would lose his seat!

One interesting point that came up in conversation over the weekend, and which may not have been covered in this thread to date, is the following:

Almost by definition, those that decentralise will be doing so for good. i.e. They intend to retire where they are relocating to. Ipso facto, each department will have its quota of every required grade. The result is that no one, but no one, will have the remostest incentive to do anything to improve their lot. Promotion will be very rare indeed. Now, what will that do for the quality of public service? Surely, the answer is obvious.

In a similar vein, I would dearly love to know how O'Donoghue's fiasco of transferring the Legal Aid Board to Cahirciveen has performed since its move. Of course, once it was realized what a Kerry joke it was, the Dublin office was never closed. (Guess where most of the courts are?).

If there is an objective employee of the Cahirciveen office who reads this thread and who worked in the Dublin office before the transfer, I would dearly love to read their honest (and anonymous) views on this.

D.

NewDubliner

Dinarius wrote:

In a similar vein, I would dearly love to know how O'Donoghue's fiasco of transferring the Legal Aid Board to Cahirciveen has performed since its move. Of course, once it was realized what a Kerry joke it was, the Dublin office was never closed. (Guess where most of the courts are?).

There's a rumour that they've applied for 'decentralisation' from Cahirciveen to Arts, Sports & Tourism in Killarney, very handy as those they already live there.

Victor

OPW plans to keep the core complex of government offices around Government Buildings/Leinster House and related Dublin 2 and 4 areas. But only specific parts of departments and agencies which have "a clear business need to relate to the centre" should be based there, it added.

Gah! No moving the Oireachtas to Clondalkin then.

NewDubliner

From the Sunday Tribune. While attention in the electoral campaign is focused on Bertie's financial affairs, the ongoing scandal of 'decentralisation' goes unnoticed.

Sunday Tribune May 6th 2007

ALMOST 5,000 public servants have been offered compensation for any loss of extra income they may suffer as a result of having to move job under the government's decentralisation plan.

But this rare show of generosity from the Department of Finance, which was outlined to nine public sector unions last week, is limited to Dublin-based public servants who have refused to make the move down the country.

Of the 10,000 public servants who have been earmarked to move to over 50 locations outside the capital, around 4,500 have decided to stay put. But as their jobs will have moved without them, they will have to be found jobs with those government departments who are not making the move.

A special central applications facility has been set up to handle the transfers of public servants from department to department within Dublin. But applications have been painfully slow as public servants feared they would lose a wide range of additional allowances and overtime payments after moving into the new job.

These allowances range from 6,145 per year for public servants working in the joint investigation unit in social, and family affairs to 10,829 for customs and excise officials working in Revenue's investigation branch. IT staff get weekend on-call allowances of up 161 while a large number of public servants get overtime. All allowances and extra payments are paid on top of a servant's salary.

Now in an effort to unblock the logjam, the Department of Finance has now offered to pay twice the annual loss to those public servants who lose such allowances when transferring to another department.

"It is possible that uncertainty about loss of earnings may have deterred people from moving under the Dublin arrangements, " the department told the unions.

But the department said no compensation will be paid to civil servants who are paid an extra 20,319 per year for acting as private secretary to a minister.

But in a bid to rein in a compensation bill that could run into millions, the department stressed that the two years compensation will not be paid to staff who agree to move out of the capital.

People will not retain allowances or other additions to pay which related to performances of particular duties, liability for certain types of work etc, unless the duties/liabilities also apply in the new assignment, warned the department.

This is the second time the department has had to pay out compensation to oil the decentralisation machinery despite it stating at the outset that public servants would not be compensated for making what is a voluntary move out of the capital.

Last year, it finally agreed to pay rural-based public servants a training allowance when they have to travel up to Dublin to be trained in on their new decentralised job.

The allowance provides for a lump sum allowance of 5,000 to cover training in Dublin for 14 weeks with 300 for each week beyond 14 weeks.

El Stuntman

I don't understand

why do we need to find these guys new jobs if their jobs have been relocated and they have refused to relocate themselves?

surely it's off to the dole office and the FAS schemes with them?

Macy

El Stuntman wrote:

why do we need to find these guys new jobs if their jobs have been relocated and they have refused to relocate themselves?

Well, it's either that or redundancy payments. The real reason that the myth is peddled that decentralisation is voluntary.

El Stuntman

Macy wrote:

Well, it's either that or redundancy payments. The real reason that the myth is peddled that decentralisation is voluntary.

making them redundant would be a good move, it would cut the bloated civil service numbers a tad anyway

The_Conductor

El Stuntman wrote:

making them redundant would be a good move, it would cut the bloated civil service numbers a tad anyway

Stop throwing wild comments about.
At present there are 32,198 serving civil servants. Of these 64% are female and 43% are over the age of 50. Fewer than 13,000 of the civil servants are based in Dublin. There has been an embargo on recruitment in the civil service since 2000 (which has resulted in the hiring of a lot of contractors and people on temporary shortterm contracts). The bloat in the public sector (note: public sector, not civil service) is in the HSE, who employ almost three times more staff than all the civil servants, gardai, teachers etc combined......

El Stuntman

smccarrick wrote:

Stop throwing wild comments about.
At present there are 32,198 serving civil servants. Of these 64% are female and 43% are over the age of 50. Fewer than 13,000 of the civil servants are based in Dublin. There has been an embargo on recruitment in the civil service since 2000 (which has resulted in the hiring of a lot of contractors and people on temporary shortterm contracts). The bloat in the public sector (note: public sector, not civil service) is in the HSE, who employ almost three times more staff than all the civil servants, gardai, teachers etc combined......

thanks for the clarification, I should have said public sector...

cyclopath2001

El Stuntman wrote:

making them redundant would be a good move, it would cut the bloated civil service numbers a tad anyway

I don't follow your logic. Why fire experienced, proven people & replace them with inexperienced culchies?

Surely it would be better, simpler & cheaper to call off the project?

Firetrap

One of today's papers (can't remember which one as I was leafing through it in somebody else's house) has an article in it about FÁS moving to Birr. The gist of the thing is that a handful of people recently relocated there and that temporary offices have been fitted out. It wouldn't have anything to do with Parlon Country and the upcoming general election, would it?

Capt'n Midnight

smccarrick wrote:

The bloat in the public sector (note: public sector, not civil service) is in the HSE, who employ almost three times more staff than all the civil servants, gardai, teachers etc combined......

http://www.irishhealth.com/index.html?level=4&id=11234

The number of people employed in the health service in 2000 was 81,513, and, according to HSE figures it had increased to 106,273 (HSE plus voluntary sector) by the end of last year.
...
The number of managers and administrators employed in the health service in 2000 was 81,513, and at December 2006 it was 17,262, a 40% increase.

- yeah there is a typo there - but 40% !!!

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/health/2007/0130/1169680964192.html http://www.irishhealth.com/hospital/hosp_newsstory.html?id=10966&sortcrit=chrono

The Government has given approval to the Health Service Executive (HSE) to employ up to 108,000 people in future

Here is a simple solution to the problem - hospitals are located all over the country and the HSE tend to hire more administrators than nurses or other category of medical staff ...

Meanwhile what's being done about economic blackspots in Dublin city ?

NewDubliner

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

Meanwhile what's being done about economic blackspots in Dublin city ?

You mean like Finglas or Dublin 8?

The government is moving the jobs from there to Carrick-on-Shannon and Naas and Kildare.

Macy

allie_e17 wrote:

One of today's papers (can't remember which one as I was leafing through it in somebody else's house) has an article in it about FÁS moving to Birr. The gist of the thing is that a handful of people recently relocated there and that temporary offices have been fitted out.

At a cost of €1 million, with a 2 year lease! Yet some on this board would blame the civil and public servant for wasting money!

allie_e17 wrote:

It wouldn't have anything to do with Parlon Country and the upcoming general election, would it?

He turned up at the opening with photographer in tow. The picture is in the local papers, even though half the people standing beside him won't be based in Birr! Both articles, presumable based on information from the Minister, also contain the lie that a site has been purchased. It hasn't.

Rosen

allie_e17 wrote:

One of today's papers (can't remember which one as I was leafing through it in somebody else's house) has an article in it about FÁS moving to Birr. The gist of the thing is that a handful of people recently relocated there and that temporary offices have been fitted out. It wouldn't have anything to do with Parlon Country and the upcoming general election, would it?

Wont be Parlon country for long methinks

eigrod

Mr Parlon, look where the pig-headed pursuit of this policy has got YOU.

Let's hope that should Labour form part of the next Government, that Joan Burton has the courage to follow through on her pre-election promises to totally re-visit this money-wasting shambles of a project.

Firetrap

I'm not sorry to see Parlon go but that isn't why the voters of Laois/Offaly gave him the boot. At the last election he was the golden boy of the IFA and a lot of farming folk (who'd normally vote for Charles Flanagan) voted for Parlon who'd promised them the sun moon and stars. As we now know, he didn't do a lot for farming but he did do a lot for FÁS.

NewDubliner

Parlon was set up by FF to take the flak for the project.

It's not the end of it.