Decentralisation

ishmael whale

This is in response to Oscarbravo post above.

quote:

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It's all black or white with you, isn't it? You have said that regional development can't happen unless it's on the scale of another Dublin. I've pointed out that that's not necessarily true. I didn't say that the current level of regional development is satisfactory. You seem determined to insist that it can't become any better than it is unless another million-population city is developed. I fail to see why there can't be a sliding scale of regional development.

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Its not so much a case of me being black and white. Its more a case that you are not really communicating clearly what you mean. I'm still not entirely clear what you mean by a sliding scale of regional development. One reading of this would be what we have - development tends to centre on Dublin, such jobs as go West tend to end up in Galway, some other areas attract some jobs and others are static. If that's what you want then what is it that you find unsatisfactory about it and what do you want to see done to change it?

quote:

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You can't exactly move an airport, only build a new one.

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Can I suggest that this is a bit pedantic. I take it you know I was referring to the offer of a new site to Galway airport a while back that would have allowed it to develop. I don't think anyone suggested rolling up the tarmac and putting it on the back of a truck, but they certainly talked about moving the airport with a clear picture that this meant closing the present one and building a new one. (And I'm supposed to be the one who sees things in black and white?)

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You've suggested in the past that your problem with the regional airports (specifically Knock) is that they don't contribute to regional development. It's almost certainly the case that an airport can't single-handedly create growth, but it's hard to see how balanced regional growth can happen in the absence of transport links.

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Its even harder to see why someone would place what is allegedly a regional airport so far from any major city.


quote:

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No, it's not a bit like that. You talked above about consolidating to one airport in Shannon: that's no closer to me than Dublin. Where's the benefit?

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There might be no particular benefit to you. The benefit might be to most people in the Western region. You're raining on their parade, not Dublin's.

quote:

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It's possible to take more than one view at once. Remember, my backyard may not be important to you - but I live here.

What good is a western seaboard view to me? I'm not talking specifically about airports here, but about western development as a whole: developing Limerick into a second Dublin delivers precisely the same benefit to me as allowing Dublin itself to sprawl halfway across the country - none. It's very important to me that Cork should be allowed to develop to its full potential, in the same way it's important to me that Latvia should be facilitated in any way possible. The bottom line is, a policy that benefits other regions at the expense of mine is one I don't feel inclined to support. Western development, to be meaningful, has to mean jobs, services and facilities for Letterkenny, Ballina, Tuam and Ennis. If the purpose of western development isn't to improve the quality of life for all the people who live in the west, what is its purpose?

---

Fine, so long as you are willing to live with the consequences of your actions. Your insistence that resources must be thinly spread throughout the West without prioritisation means that the present pattern of development centred on Dublin will continue. If you are happy with that there's no need for disagreement between us.

lucernarian

People, can we talk about this in a Decentralisation of Government Departments context? I find it ironic that there was less interest in a thread specifically for this subject:rolleyes:
We cant have posts that go round in circles. Dude, we need to create new ideas;)

Anyway why does a fundamental part of the administration of this country remain excluded to the public eye? They should be held accountable for any mistakes just as other public servants are. I mean this in a good way:)

ishmael whale

Originally posted by To_be_confirmed
Another larger city or cities would encourage growth in the regions they are in. If people think that the presence of Dublin makes the entire East coast a region of prosperity then surely the same must apply if there was a rival Dublin in the West.

I think you're basically right. But the problem is the opposition you get parochial interests. Its like that old story about the Irish lobster tank not needing a lid because if one tried to escape the others would drag them down. A while ago there was a ding dong between Cashel and Clonmel. Each had a hospital. They were too close together to invest in both so one had to close. The result would be better services for both towns, although obviously one would end up having to travel to the other location. They couldn't agree on which was to lose which dragged the whole process out for years.

The same attitude has held back regional development, and still seems to be around.

oscarBravo

Originally posted by ishmael whale
There might be no particular benefit to you. The benefit might be to most people in the Western region. You're raining on their parade, not Dublin's.

Eliminating every airport north of Shannon might be of benefit to the people of Galway, Mayo, Sligo, Leitrim and Donegal how exactly?

Fine, so long as you are willing to live with the consequences of your actions. Your insistence that resources must be thinly spread throughout the West without prioritisation means that the present pattern of development centred on Dublin will continue. If you are happy with that there's no need for disagreement between us.

You're determined to miss the key point: development centred on Galway is precisely as useful to the population of the western seaboard (outside of Galway) as is development centred on Dublin, which is precisely as useful as development centred on Lisbon.

This isn't New Zealand: we don't have the bulk of the population clustered in three cities. A third of the population live in one unwieldy urban sprawl, and the rest live everywhere else. If your idea of western development is to starve the people of the regions into the cities, excuse us if we don't sign up.

oscarBravo

Originally posted by ishmael whale
A while ago there was a ding dong between Cashel and Clonmel. Each had a hospital. They were too close together to invest in both so one had to close. The result would be better services for both towns, although obviously one would end up having to travel to the other location.

Sure why would either town want a hospital - aren't there hospitals in Dublin?

Victor

Originally posted by Muck
Tullamore already has the primary school building section of the Department of Education.

And apparently Offaly has the highest per capita investment in primary schools. :mad:

Originally posted by Muck
Anybody in Lucan (for example) could tell you that there has never been a more dedicated and focused bunch of profesionals assembled for such a noble purpose anywhere....ever .

I nearly missed the sarchasm.

uncivilservant

Originally posted by oscarBravo
Sure why would either town want a hospital - aren't there hospitals in Dublin?

Is this analogy meant to be in some way relevant?

oscarBravo

Originally posted by uncivilservant
Is this analogy meant to be in some way relevant?

It's not an analogy, it's a sarchasm.

spongebob

I have already said that I don't want that shower in Galway so leave Galway out of it pleeeaaaaseee .

M

ishmael whale

Originally posted by oscarBravo
You're determined to miss the key point: development centred on Galway is precisely as useful to the population of the western seaboard (outside of Galway) as is development centred on Dublin, which is precisely as useful as development centred on Lisbon.

Can I suggest that seeing no greater benefit for the Western seaboard from development in Galway than from development in Lisbon is an extraordinary comment. You may wish to reconsider.

Originally posted by oscarBravo
This isn't New Zealand: we don't have the bulk of the population clustered in three cities. A third of the population live in one unwieldy urban sprawl, and the rest live everywhere else. If your idea of western development is to starve the people of the regions into the cities, excuse us if we don't sign up.

Again you haven't really explained what your problem is. If you are happy with a less developed West then fine, that's what you've got. If you want some significant change (and many people seem to) then something along the lines of the National Spatial Strategy is necessary. This means targeting a small number of centres for growth, not scattering resources all over the place. It means making choices like Clonmel vs Cashel, on the basis that otherwise Dublin will be the only place with useful hospitals.

ionapaul

If you want some significant change (and many people seem to) then something along the lines of the National Spatial Strategy is necessary. This means targeting a small number of centres for growth, not scattering resources all over the place. It means making choices like Clonmel vs Cashel, on the basis that otherwise Dublin will be the only place with useful hospitals.

What would people think of decentralisation focusing on Sligo, Galway, Limerick, Cork, Waterford, and Athlone? I think this would make more sense in the long run, as these cities/towns (and Dundalk I suppose) need development to act as a counter-weight to Dublin. I think Galway (my home town ) and Cork in particular will be the big 'winners' over the next 20 years outside Dublin in terms of growth and development in the private sector. And they are much nicer places to live than Dublin at the end of the day - pity I've had to move to skanger central for jobs!

oscarBravo

Originally posted by ishmael whale
Can I suggest that seeing no greater benefit for the Western seaboard from development in Galway than from development in Lisbon is an extraordinary comment. You may wish to reconsider.

Help me out here: what, specifically, will the people of Donegal gain from a development policy that concentrates all investment in Galway?

Again you haven't really explained what your problem is. If you are happy with a less developed West then fine, that's what you've got. If you want some significant change (and many people seem to) then something along the lines of the National Spatial Strategy is necessary. This means targeting a small number of centres for growth, not scattering resources all over the place.

If your agenda for western development is simply to ease pressure on Dublin, then I can see that it makes sense to consider it as an academic exercise. Targetting Galway as the exclusive centre for growth in the west would achieve the twin aims of boosting "The West" (defined as somewhere that isn't Dublin) and relieving the pressure on the east coast - but it's naive to expect everyone outside of Galway to become cheerleaders for a project that explicitly removes investment from their areas.

If you're determined to make it a black/white issue, then yes: we're better off with the status quo. At least this way we're in with a fighting chance of some occasional inward investment. Until the proponents of the targetted development approach can demonstrate how it benefits those people who are not being targetted, it's unrealistic to expect much support for the idea.

It means making choices like Clonmel vs Cashel, on the basis that otherwise Dublin will be the only place with useful hospitals.

This is a direct contradiction of your entire message. You've been telling us that we can't choose between Clonmel and Cashel; we must choose Galway or be stuck with Dublin. Which is it?

ishmael whale

Originally posted by ionapaul
What would people think of decentralisation focusing on Sligo, Galway, Limerick, Cork, Waterford, and Athlone?

Accepting political realities I could live with this as the choice for regional hubs – i.e. centres that would be prioritised for infrastructure and relevant regional services. I would also favour real decentralisation in the form of responsibility and power being devolved to the regions.

But chopping out some chunk of central government and moving it elsewhere for no particular reason is not really a good idea. On top of everything else that’s been said the two stories below are relevant. The first one illustrates how when services are decentralised normal operational decisions about the most efficient way to deliver services become political issues. In the second story consider how thirty staff made redundant from a closed scheme could be reallocated in Dublin in a matter of days. In a regional location its just not so easy, as a block of work has to be found that suits the numbers rather than the other way round.

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/low_res/story.jsp?story=538739&host=26&dir=743

Civil service jobs 'under threat'
By William Allen
bustel@belfasttelegraph.co.uk
06 July 2004
A LONDONDERRY Assembly member today voiced support for Derry Trades Council's call for a major campaign to retain Civil Service jobs in the city…..

"Some of these jobs came to Derry under decentralisation moves which were welcomed at the time. However, it now seems some decentralised jobs are under threat because computerisation makes it feasible to recentralise them.

"Other jobs are in danger because personnel functions are being computerised and sold off to the private sector. In the long run this move could cost Derry 100 jobs.
"This raises important questions about the Government's commitment to the economic regeneration of the North-West, which is still reeling from the blows it has received in the textile industry.
"How much is decentralisation worth if we just get processing units which are for the technology chop in a few years? Will there be any commitment to retention of employment in the privatisation tendering process?"
……………

http://archives.tcm.ie/westernpeople/2004/04/28/story19404.asp
Wednesday, April 28, 2004 :

Civil servants ‘twiddle thumbs’

The abolition of the first-time house buyer’s grant has left civil servants in an office in Ballina “twiddling their thumbs” because they do not have enough work.
The predicament of the public servants in a section of the Department of the Environment decentralised to Ballina about 10 years ago was revealed at the Public Service Executive Union annual conference.
Delegates at the conference were told that since the abolition of the first time buyers grant in November 2002, a large proportion of the staff’s workload had been removed.
Mr Tommy Kierans of the union’s environment, heritage and local government branch, said management had promised that adequate and meaningful work would be provided to replace the previous duties. More than a year on, however, no replacement work had been provided.
A spokesman for the Department of the Environment said the Department would consider allocating new blocks of work to the housing section or redeploying staff to other units in Ballina. The spokesperson said there were currently 30 people employed in the housing section in Ballina.

ishmael whale

Originally posted by oscarBravo
Help me out here: what, specifically, will the people of Donegal gain from a development policy that concentrates all investment in Galway?

Maybe very little, but the point is if you spread resources too thinly no-one at all benefits. The National Spatial Strategy suggests that large urban centres are needed to bring significant development to regional locations. You can argue over the details, and whether its town A or town B that benefits. But your idea that every small town must get something is the approach that has been tried to date and found wanting.

Originally posted by oscarBravo
It's naive to expect everyone outside of Galway to become cheerleaders for a project that explicitly removes investment from their areas.

If they can't see the bigger picture the whole region will decline.

Originally posted by oscarBravo
If you're determined to make it a black/white issue, then yes: we're better off with the status quo.

I don't see how this is dependent on me making it a black/white issue. I'm trying to get a picture of what you think should be different, which I'm still not clear on. For example, do you want to see central government offices splintered and scattered over 53 locations? I don't know. You haven't said.

Originally posted by oscarBravo
This is a direct contradiction of your entire message. You've been telling us that we can't choose between Clonmel and Cashel; we must choose Galway or be stuck with Dublin. Which is it?

This is painful. Clearly what I am pointing out is that a block to regional development is the difficulty of getting local groups to commit to common objectives that should improve the position of their region. In the example of Cashel/Clonmel the lack of agreement was within the one county. It's a perfect example of this issue.

oscarBravo

Originally posted by ishmael whale
Maybe very little, but the point is if you spread resources too thinly no-one at all benefits.

This is where we get down to the nitty-gritty: what's "too thinly"? Concentrating resources in one area means no-one outside that area benefits. Scattering resources with no focus whatsoever means that no-one benefits at all.

That's why I'm looking for a middle ground. If you concentrate growth in Galway, Donegal effectively suffers, as I've finally gotten you to admit. If you plan for growth in Sligo, then there's the possibility of some benefit for Donegal. If growth is encouraged in Castlebar, Sligo and Letterkenny, then the benefits start to be felt throughout the region.

The National Spatial Strategy suggests that large urban centres are needed to bring significant development to regional locations.

The NSS can suggest what it wants, but if the net effect of a policy is to allow existing smaller urban centres to decay, then don't be too surprised when the inhabitants of those towns have a problem with it.

You can argue over the details, and whether its town A or town B that benefits. But your idea that every small town must get something is the approach that has been tried to date and found wanting.

In a sense, it's vital that every small town gets something - not necessarily a Dell or MBNA, but something to keep the local economy alive.

I've suggested that Castlebar and Sligo become focal points for development - notice I didn't mention Ballina, even though I live there. Develop Castlebar and Sligo, and Ballina will develop too - as long as it has good quality access to those towns. Back to the hospital question: Ballina doesn't need a hospital. What it does need is a good road to Castlebar (which it doesn't have) and a reliable ambulance service (which does its best, considering the roads).

If they can't see the bigger picture the whole region will decline.

If the region (or at least a prosperous corner of it) is growing, but you live in a ghost town, what have you gained?

Perhaps advocates of centralised development should be made to live in Gweedore for a year - that might reshape their thinking somewhat. I'm reminded of a friend's recent suggestion that Miche�l Martin should be driven to the far end of the Dingle peninsula, kicked hard in the nuts and told to find his way to the nearest hospital - then as he approaches Tralee, kick him again and tell him to carry on to Limerick.

I don't see how this is dependent on me making it a black/white issue. I'm trying to get a picture of what you think should be different, which I'm still not clear on. For example, do you want to see central government offices splintered and scattered over 53 locations? I don't know. You haven't said.

I'm not particularly impressed with the current decentralisation proposal, no. I don't see what it's supposed to achieve.

This is painful. Clearly what I am pointing out is that a block to regional development is the difficulty of getting local groups to commit to common objectives that should improve the position of their region. In the example of Cashel/Clonmel the lack of agreement was within the one county. It's a perfect example of this issue.

Neat dodge. The whole thrust of your argument to date has been that there shouldn't be any development in Tipperary, because it would prevent Galway (or wherever) from achieving necessary economies of scale. Against that backdrop, highlighting an argument between two towns in Tipp hardly proves your point.

On the subject of the hospitals: what was proposed to be put in place to ensure that nobody died in an ambulance between Cashel and Clonmel? There's not much point consolidating services in one location to the detriment of another - the new improved hospital could be the best in the world, but if it's a half-hour ambulance ride through heavy traffic on a bad road for an intensive care patient, what have you really achieved?

Sleepy

Originally posted by ishmael whale

http://archives.tcm.ie/westernpeople/2004/04/28/story19404.asp
Wednesday, April 28, 2004 :

Civil servants ‘twiddle thumbs’

The abolition of the first-time house buyer’s grant has left civil servants in an office in Ballina “twiddling their thumbs” because they do not have enough work.
The predicament of the public servants in a section of the Department of the Environment decentralised to Ballina about 10 years ago was revealed at the Public Service Executive Union annual conference.
Delegates at the conference were told that since the abolition of the first time buyers grant in November 2002, a large proportion of the staff’s workload had been removed.
Mr Tommy Kierans of the union’s environment, heritage and local government branch, said management had promised that adequate and meaningful work would be provided to replace the previous duties. More than a year on, however, no replacement work had been provided.
A spokesman for the Department of the Environment said the Department would consider allocating new blocks of work to the housing section or redeploying staff to other units in Ballina. The spokesperson said there were currently 30 people employed in the housing section in Ballina.

Why in the name of god weren't these people made redundant? If there's no work, there's no position. Typical of the "taking care of the boys" attitude if you ask me.

Sleepy

Originally posted by uncivilservant
Thank you for your well rounded contribution to the debate.

Here's the link to the Department of Finance website, where you should be able to find circulars containing civil service pay scales, details of annual leave entitlements and information on how the flexitime system works.

http://www.finance.gov.ie

Well, call me thick if you like I couldn't find details of pay scales anywhere on that site, only circulars about raises. Ditto publicjobs.ie. Nor could I find details of annual leave entitlements, nor on how to screw the flexitime system.

ishmael whale

Originally posted by oscarBravo
This is where we get down to the nitty-gritty: what's "too thinly"? Concentrating resources in one area means no-one outside that area benefits. Scattering resources with no focus whatsoever means that no-one benefits at all.

We’re getting closer. We can agree that scattering resources with no focus whatsoever means that no-one benefits at all. We can agree that the proposed decentralisation adds nothing.

Can I point out that your statement that ‘Concentrating resources in one area means no-one outside that area benefits.’ is not entirely consistent with ‘Develop Castlebar and Sligo, and Ballina will develop too - as long as it has good quality access to those towns’ and suggests you are open to the question of prioritisation.

In principle, a lot of what you are saying is much the same as the National Spatial Strategy says. They identified nine primary and nine secondary centres. You seem to be saying one per county (I’m not trying to put words in your mouth, but to the extent that you say Letterkenny, Sligo and Castlebar but not Ballina it looks like that.) Broadly you seem to be saying you’re fine with the NSS. That said you have to accept that, at some level, this means that every small town will not get something – and some will likely be losers.

However, at least we seem to be on the same playing field. We are both saying some level of concentration is necessary. The only argument is how many centres.

I’d be quite happy to bring Micheal Martin to Dingle and leave him there (my commitment to non-violence makes kicking him problematic.) But this doesn’t really clarify the issue of how to deliver health services in rural areas. If you’re at the butt end of the Beara peninsular you’ve a journey ahead of you. If you live next door to a hospital offering the service you require you don’t. If you live in a large town you’ve a higher chance of being close to a hospital offering the service you require. If you live in a very large town your chances are higher again.

Returning to Cashel/Clonmel, I’m not dodging. I’m just pointing out that local loyalties cause problems in situations where most innocent bystanders are asking ‘what’s all that about.’ If people can't agree on priorities within counties its hard to see how they can be brought to agree at a regional level, let alone a national level.

I have no idea what local protocols are agreed for the handling of patients in South Tipperary. I don’t know to what extent centralisating services might mean that they could deal with cases locally that would otherwise need to be referred to Dublin, but that Hanley fellah probably has a view. I had a google and from what I can gather in 1997 agreement was reached that Clonmel would be the main centre, but Cashel is still clinging on at some level. Clonmel seems to have a new wing built and everyone is terribly puzzled why there’s no money to open it. Funny old world.

gazzer

Here you go Sleepy.

Below is the rates of pay for Clerical Officers (these will make up the majority of the staff who are being asked to decentralise.

As you will see... the starting salary is just under 400 euro a week with annual increments. It takes approx 15 years to get to the top of the scale if you stay in that grade. This rate of pay is as at Dec 2003.

the link below shows the annual leave entitlements for all grades. Clerical Officers get 20 (though that was changed to 21 under benchmarking)





CLERICAL OFFICER STANDARD SCALE, CLERICAL OFFICER DATA ENTRY AND VISUALLY IMPAIRED TELEPHONIST

€19,723 (€377.98) €20,642 (€395.59) €21,563 (€413.25)*
€22,484 (€430.90) €23,405 (€448.55) €24,327 (€466.22)
€25,246 (€483.83) €26,167 (€501.47) €27,089 (€519.15)
€28,008 (€536.76) €28,922 (€554.27) €30,347(€581.58)
€31,468 (€603.07) [1] €31,982 (€612.92)[2]


CLERICAL OFFICER HIGHER SCALE

€20,642 (€395.59) €21,563 (€413.25) €22,484 (€430.90)
€23,405 (€448.55) €24,327 (€466.22) €25,246 (€483.83)
€26,167 (€501.47) €27,089 (€519.15) €28,008 (€536.76)
€28,922 (€554.27) €30,347 (€581.58) €31,468 (€603.07)
€31,982 (€612.92) €32,676 (€626.21)

1 After 3 years satisfactory service at the maximum.
2 After 6 years satisfactory service at the maximum.

http://www.finance.gov.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=573

gazzer

oh almost forgot Sleepy.

The flexi time arrangements are as follows:

You can start work anytime from 8am to 10am
You must be in work from 10am to 12.30
You can take a lunch break from 12.30 to 2.30 (you have to take a minimum of half hour)
You must in work from 2.30 to 4pm
Then you can leave work anytime from 4pm to 7pm.

You must work a 34.25 hour week.

oscarBravo

Originally posted by ishmael whale
We are both saying some level of concentration is necessary. The only argument is how many centres.

Fair enough - let's leave that as an open question to be developed in the future.

I'd be quite happy to bring Micheal Martin to Dingle and leave him there (my commitment to non-violence makes kicking him problematic.)

Don't worry, you wouldn't have any great trouble finding someone to do it for you.

But this doesn't really clarify the issue of how to deliver health services in rural areas. If you're at the butt end of the Beara peninsular you've a journey ahead of you. If you live next door to a hospital offering the service you require you don't. If you live in a large town you've a higher chance of being close to a hospital offering the service you require. If you live in a very large town your chances are higher again.

Speaking personally, I would have no qualms with facing a journey - once that journey was reasonable. That's not about distance, but about time. Once a structure is put in place that can get an acute patient to an appropriate level of care in a short timespan, it doesn't matter quite so much where the hospitals are. This means investment in ambulance services - air and ground - rather than hospitals everywhere. I think that's roughly where Hanley was going.

cyclopath2001

The ICT & Health jobs are being shifted, mostly to McCreeevy's own constituency (Naas & Kildare).

http://www.finance.gov.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=2363

Press release was made at close of business today and just as the Dail finishes until September, no doubt to prevent any awkward questions being asked in the house.

uncivilservant

Originally posted by cyclopath2001
The ICT & Health jobs are being shifted, mostly to McCreeevy's own constituency (Naas & Kildare).

http://www.finance.gov.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=2363

Press release was made at close of business today and just as the Dail finishes until September, no doubt to prevent any awkward questions being asked in the house.

And a sizable chunk of the rest going to Parlon's.

uncivilservant

It would be interesting to get a look at the breakdown of what locations those 2,200 expressions of interest were for...

cyclopath2001

I didn't know that Kildare town was underdeveloped, I wonder how it managed to win out over Boyle?

Not only should the departmental breakdown of the 2200 be questioned but also the grades....pity that the announcement was made just as the Dail adjourned.

The official spin is that the 2200 is an encouraging beginning, but actually the figure could drop back as I've heard that some people said they will move with their departments to avoid the hassle of training their replacements while trying to do their normal days work & to avoid being tagged for an early move to another part of Dublin to make way for their replacements. At the last minute they'll withdraw their expressions of interest.

Others were just speculative expressions so as to reserve a location that they may or may not decide to move to before the deadline.

More again will drop out when they find the locals have jacked up the house prices at the destinations and after totting up the full cost of moving.

I pity the HR people, it'll be a messy job.

uncivilservant

Originally posted by cyclopath2001
IThe official spin is that the 2200 is an encouraging beginning, but actually the figure could drop back as I've heard that some people said they will move with their departments to avoid the hassle of training their replacements while trying to do their normal days work & to avoid being tagged for an early move to another part of Dublin to make way for their replacements. At the last minute they'll withdraw their expressions of interest.

I've no doubt that people doing jobs they actually gain some level of satisfaction from are just saying they'll go with their parent department for the sake of being left alone for a couple of years.

If they were unfortunate enough to get caught up in the inter-departmental churn and transferred to a different department, but the whole thing got shelved and their job didn't actually decentralise after all..... well that's just tough i suppose because there's no transferring back.

DublinWriter

Originally posted by ishmael whale
I’d be quite happy to bring Micheal Martin to Dingle and leave him there (my commitment to non-violence makes kicking him problematic.)

A few months ago I passed by Micheal Martin on Kildare street as he was standing talking to someone.

I'm a liberal pacifist, but I never had the urge to go smack someone in the face as strong as I had that day.

ishmael whale

The figures on numbers opting for the decentralisation programme are much as expected. The full report is here.

http://www.uncivilservant.com/article.php?id=123

Table 7 of the stats gives details of the 1997 civil servants applying for the new locations. The top nine locations attracting applications are all in Leinster. They are:

Drogheda 291
Newbridge 218
Trim 215
Mullingar 106
Carlow 81
Portlaoise 80
Cavan 79
Navan 73
Tullamore 58

These nine account for 1200 of the circa 2000 volunteers (and the top three account for 724 of them), so it would look like the volunteering is largely based on people living in the various satellite towns around Dublin opting for a closer location.

Navan might be less popular because its getting the probation and welfare service and all bar one of the present staff seem to be taking the opportunity of leaving all that unpleasantness behind them.

lucernarian

It seems I was correct when I said that Drogheda attracted the most applications (291 out of around 300)

Why would Drogheda, the largest or second largest provincial town in ireland be left out of the NSS or of the suggestions by posters? Does nobody realise that the NSS makes the area 10-40 miles out of Dublin a ghost area, to be swallowed up by Dublin? Im fed up with people who think that these "satellite towns" have it all cushy. I dont think Drogheda is a satellite town and I dont think it should be either. We have to put up with influxes of people, driving up house prices and putting severe pressure on local infrastructure.

Btw the NEHB(north eastern health board) seems to have already partially implemented Hanly but I don't see the local hospital (our lady of lourdes') getting extra staff or beds. It seems to be easy for health boards to downgrade hospitals but they're much more unwilling to upgrade the other hospitals

Cork

Originally posted by Sleepy
Well, call me thick if you like I couldn't find details of pay scales anywhere on that site, only circulars about raises. Ditto publicjobs.ie. Nor could I find details of annual leave entitlements, nor on how to screw the flexitime system.

What gets me is that public servants taking jobs as returning officers and counters at elections.

Would it not be fairer if these jobs were open to all.

uncivilservant

Why?

Cork

Originally posted by uncivilservant
Why?

Why should these jobs be taken up by public servants?

When they take time off to take up these jobs - Is it counted as holidays in their day job?

uncivilservant

Why wouldn't it be?

lucernarian

Id say loads of people would like to be returning officers etc. at elections. It's clearly unfair if good candidates for the "job" are turned down simply because they're not civil servants. I wonder who was the civil servant who came up with that rule

uncivilservant

Can we have some facts, please?

Other than demonstrating the size of the chips on some people's shoulders regarding the public service, what exactly does this have to do with Decentralisation?

cyclopath2001

I think it also demonstrates how certain parties are trying to draw attention away from the huge flaws of the relocation scheme by projecting it as an engine of civil service reform & by trying to harvest the begrudgers' vote.

spongebob

According to the Tribune today Macroom , Fermoy and Youghal are among the 5 least favourite destinations ........ they must already know that Cork will be tring to get them into the local FF cumann as soon as they show up.

The 5 Favourite destinations are all well inside the Pale but outside the M50 .

I still don't want them in Galway so the Pale will do fine ...... maybe make it the western fringe of the Pale about 40 Miles out from Dubin .

M

Cork

Originally posted by Muck
According to the Tribune today Macroom , Fermoy and Youghal are among the 5 least favourite destinations ........ they must already know that Cork will be tring to get them into the local FF cumann as soon as they show up.
M

I am not even a member of a political party. But It is a good idea of join one.
Thanks Muck!

But Civil Servants have another couple of months to decide. Macroom , Fermoy and Youghal are not bad locations at all.

Youghal has a seaside and Perks Funfair. (Better than the continent diuring a good Summer)
Fermoy has a river & is getting a bypass. (Plenty Fish)
Macroom is where they do the counts in Cork North West for the General election. (The excitement every 4 years).

therecklessone

Originally posted by Cork


Youghal has a seaside and Perks Funfair. (Better than the continent diuring a good Summer)

I'd say the Riviera's shi*ting itself...

ishmael whale

http://www.irishexaminer.com/pport/web/opinion/Full_Story/did-sgJ9jh2kuMCbg.asp

The amount of self delusion even still going on about this programme is hard to credit. In fairness to this article in the Irish Examiner, after an attempt at an upbeat opening line, it does admit that the programme will have no real impact on regional development. But the author tries to convince himself that there are squads of civil servants in Dublin wanting to relocate elsewhere.

We know from the figures released that only 288 civil servants currently working in Dublin have any pressing interest in moving to the locations West of the Shannon, and only 263 have expressed an interest in moving to any of the Munster locations. 868 of the 1442 opting for Leinster and Cavan are accounted for by Meath, Kildare and Louth, and would look to be people already living in those locations but seeking a shorter commute.

Let me say I’m not saying that the civil service exists for the convenience of its staff. But suggesting, as the author of this article does, that large numbers of Dublin based civil servants want to relocate is just plain wrong.

uncivilservant

Want to stay in Dublin? Looks like all you have to do is contact our local FF'er:

Decentralisation will not affect Finglas Jobs - Pat Carey TD

More than 180 jobs in Finglas that may have been located elsewhere due to the Government's Decentralisation Programme are safe according to Pat Carey TD.

"General Medical Services (Payments) Board which employs 180 people will not be decentralised as previously expected.

Staff of GMS did not want to relocate and expressed their concerns to me as their local Fianna Fáil public representative. I made representations on their behalf to the Minister for Finance Charlie McCreevy TD and Minister for Health Michael Martin TD and asked them to reconsider their plans for GMS."

"I am delighted they acted favourably on my representations and I welcome their commitment to me that GMS will not now be relocated out of Finglas. I am pleased for the 180 staff members and their families and I wish them continued success, concluded Pat Carey TD."

(from http://www.politics.ie/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=5842)

ishmael whale

A TSSA representative this morning said the figure of 200 Bus Éireann employees was still actually on the table. Presumably 120 unneeded people will be recruited to make up the numbers. Add to the 40 new General Register Office staff taking up space in Roscommon while the jobs they are supposed to be doing remain fully staffed in Dublin, query what the staff in Agriculture will be doing when the simplified system of support payments is implemented, wonder if the staff in Ballina who used to deal with housing grants will ever be given new work to do and it all adds up to an appalling waste of resources.
http://www.rte.ie/news/2004/0713/decentralisation
Bus staff reject Mitchelstown move
July 13, 2004 12:23
Staff at Bus Éireann's head office in Dublin have said that not one of them intends moving to Co Cork if the Government presses ahead with plans to decentralise the office to Mitchelstown.
The Transport Salaried Staffs' Association, representing the clerical and managerial staff, said that if relocation goes ahead, every single member of staff in Bus Éireann's head office will be new.
The TSSA members will gather on O'Connell Street, Dublin, this lunchtime to launch 81 balloons, to signify the 81 jobs due for decentralisation.
The union said 85% of Bus Éireann staff already work outside of Dublin, with one in five of the company's staff already working in Co Cork.
http://archives.tcm.ie/irishexaminer/2004/05/20/story483400300.asp
WELL over half the 200 Bus Éireann employees earmarked for decentralisation to Mitchelstown, Co Cork, cannot be transferred because they are bus drivers and mechanics who need to be based in Dublin.
http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=44&si=1213627&issue_id=11123
In 1992 the then Government decided to move the General Register Office (GRO) to Roscommon. The target date was 1996. So leisurely has been the pace that the move will not be completed until the middle of next year.
But there has been progress. There are 40 staff in the Roscommon office. The Dublin office (need one say?) remains fully staffed.
http://www.agriculture.gov.ie/index.jsp?file=pressrel/2003/130-2003.xml
The Minister for Agriculture and Food, Mr Joe Walsh, TD, announced today that he had decided that all direct payments for Cattle, Sheep and Arable Crops will be fully decoupled from production as and from 1 January 2005.……. Minister Walsh added that an advantage of full decoupling will be a significant reduction in the level of bureaucracy for farmers and the Department.

lucernarian

F**k the term "The pale" We are not second class irish people. Its just a historical term that should be dead and buried. I dont want dubliners where I live if the consequences of that is losing our local communities to an anonymous society. Why can't we start working in our local areas again. We are not Dubliners but let civil servants go to wherever they want provided they will bring positive influence to their local area. I wonder if civil servants should stay after all to stop an extra influx into local communities being damaged already.

Victor

To be honest the GRO is doing a lot more work than they had been doing due to the increase in birth and marriage rates (and the introduction of divorce ), the civilisation of marriage and they have been computerising all their records. But yes this is all coming to an end and they will be left with a bunch of people in Dublin with no work.

ishmael whale

Certainly a surplus in Dublin would be easier to absorb, and creating an island is Roscommon is leaving a hostage to fortune particularly if integration of civil registration into Social Welfare systems does away with the need for a seperate function. But I'm not sure you are right to say the surplus will be in Dublin.

The Roscommon office is not open to the public, and what exactly they do there at present I'm not clear. The Dublin office has a public office for the issue of certs and a research room for geneology (I've a horrible feeling that's not how to spell 'geneology'). The research room benefits from being in the same town as the other relevant national repositories - National Archives, National Library, RCB library - so they'd be nuts to close it, even if they do open a duplicate operation in Roscommon for the optics.

I don't know what effect computerisation has on the setup, but traditionally each county had an office that held all local records, being the original registrations. The GRO held copies of all local records, collected every quarter. (Incidently, this means the GRO would not really be impacted by an increase in births - the registrations are done locally, and the local staff create copies of those records for transmission to GRO). So the GRO could issue a cert in respect of any birth, death or marriage once they had the copy. In bygone days the main purpose was probably to protect records from loss by effectively having an offsite backup, but actually most staff of the GRO are engaged in providing a cert issuing service to the public.

Its ideal location for convenience to the public would be a county or town where there was a concentration of people not born in that locality, as it would provide them with an accessable place where they could obtain their certs over the counter. Dublin would seem to be the place that best meets that definition. So, again, it would seem nutty to close its Dublin office which actually serves a purpose even if a 'lets pretend' public office is eventually opened in Roscommon.

Victor

And things start to all go wrong (please note McDowell wants to castrate(!) the Equality Authority)

http://home.eircom.net/content/irelandcom/topstories/3610291?view=Eircomnet

State bodies concerned over plans for decentralisation
From:ireland.com
Saturday, 17th July, 2004

Major national road projects are likely to be significantly delayed because of the Government's decentralisation programme, the National Roads Authority has warned.

It says the programme has "extremely serious" implications for its own operations, including its plan to complete major inter-urban routes by 2008 to 2010.

Other State bodies have also expressed serious reservations about the programme in documents released yesterday.

The Equality Authority says the loss of skilled and experienced staff arising from decentralisation could expose it to the risk of court action.

It could take years, it warns, for it to rebuild lost capacities if its planned move to Roscrea, Co Tipperary, takes place. None of its 53 staff has indicated a willingness to move to the new location.

The concerns are outlined in decentralisation implementation plans, some of which were published yesterday and others provided to The Irish Times on request.

Each organisation selected for decentralisation was required to prepare such a plan for the implementation group chaired by Mr Phil Flynn.

The NRA says decentralisation of its staff and operations to Ballinasloe, Co Galway, could cause significant "corporate memory loss", the seriousness of which "must not be underestimated".

"The opinion of management is that decentralisation and the consequent potential loss of expertise, will render the authority unable to deliver on the national roads programme until such time as suitably qualified personnel, particularly in the technical area, are recruited and trained." The plan makes clear, however, that finding such personnel will not be easy. Replacing senior project managers is likely to prove particularly difficult.

As well as highlighting the impact on service delivery, several agencies claim that decentralisation will impose significant extra costs.

The Probation and Welfare Service, which is to be moved to Navan, Co Meath, says officers will have to travel to Dublin regularly for court duty and to interview clients. It is one of several organisations which says it will have to maintain facilities in Dublin if it is to operate effectively.

The Equality Authority says additional costs are likely to arise in a range of areas, including maintenance of a Dublin office and salaries while new staff are familiarising themselves with its work by overlapping with existing staff.

Its most serious concerns, however, arise from the potential loss of experienced personnel.

It took staff "a considerable amount of time", it says, for staff to become skilled in specialist areas such as information dissemination and legal case management. "Disruption of the delivery of these functions or the loss of skills in these areas may leave us open to the risk of court action."

cyclopath2001

One principal aim of the relocation scheme is to move Civil Serfs from Dublin and re-educate them in politically correct rural areas. The 'Dublin Mindset' is an enemy of the state.

To accomplish this, we must all 'Make a Great Leap Forward'.

This scheme is in the style of the Chinese Cultural Revolution, but with less shooting.

This explains why no indication has been given about tax increases to fund it or closures of services has been given.

luckat

I'd love to decentralise! Give me a home where the Charolais roam.

uncivilservant

Originally posted by cyclopath2001
This scheme is in the style of the Chinese Cultural Revolution, but with less shooting.

All in good time.

This explains why no indication has been given about tax increases to fund it or closures of services has been given.

Perhaps someone needs to ask how much the acquisition of all these new properties will cost first?

ishmael whale

http://breaking.examiner.ie/2004/07/21/story158001.html

“Decentralisation 'should be scrapped'
21/07/2004 - 09:09:09

The Government should abandon decentralisation plans when Finance Minister Charlie McCreevy takes up his new role as European Commissioner, it was claimed today.

Labour leader Pat Rabbitte said Mr McCreevy’s departure provided the perfect opportunity to shelve plans to force thousands of public servants out of Dublin.

Mr Rabbitte said the decentralisation scheme was damaging and unworkable and called on the Government to halt the plan..........”

Is it too much to hope that they might abandon it? Parlon’s recent speech (http://www.uncivilservant.com/article.php?id=144) is notable for managing to come up with no purpose for the scheme other that to assert that decentralisation is necessary for regional development. He says “In reality, no-one is pulling back from this analysis”, a statement which seems to ignore even the existence of the National Spatial Strategy. The NSS suggests regional concentration rather than decentralisation is what is required. The NSS also envisages the development of real facilities in regional locations, not building an office to accommodate some amputated piece of central government.

The rest of his speech is an unsuccessful attempt to suggest that the programme won’t do too much damage. He says that 2,600 civil servants working in Dublin want to move either to the new or existing regional offices and 2,200 civil servants already working outside Dublin are interested in the new locations. In other words only 400 net posts can be filled and, as we know, the places closest to Dublin are the ones attracting the interest.

He mentions a Department of Social and Family Affairs rationalisation initiative as an example of effective decentralisation. It involves integration of the civil registration programme, the public service identity at birth service and the processing of Child Benefit claims. He breathlessly says “And all that happens right here in Donegal, despite the fact that the majority of births take place in the capital.” A number of questions arise from this. Why bother doing this in Donegal if most births are in the capital? What advantage comes from doing this in Donegal (i.e. it may be technically feasible to do this in Donegal but why bother)? And where does this leave the forty jobs in the General Register Office decentralised to Roscommon? Decentralisation removes any political incentive for achieving public sector efficiency.

Of course the proposed programme does not just involve operational areas like this. It also includes policy making functions. Parlon comments that senior civil servants based in the Capital do not have regular face-to-face contact. If this is true its seems to be an attempt to pretend a failure is a virtue. Government should be co-ordinated. Decentralisation makes it harder.

He trails on to the usual verbals about communications technologies, including the mandatory reference to videoconferencing. My picture of videoconferencing was that it offered a way for organisations to communicate where, of necessity, they had locations all over a country or, indeed, all over the world. The idea that you would take people in the one location and scatter them just so you could give videoconferencing a spin seems somewhat novel.

He comments that Ireland is a small country, and that vast distances are not involved (but ignores that the programme involves scattering offices from one location to many). However, this cuts both ways. Ireland is small, so locating central government offices in the capital (which is, after all, where you would expect them to be) is no great hardship. Why waste money moving from a perfectly good location? For the craic? Why scatter offices all over the place and give ourselves the cost structure of a large country?