Decentralisation

Cork

arcadegame2004 wrote:

It is high time that the powers that be start realising that the Republic of Ireland has 25 other counties than just Dublin.

I agree. It is no wonder Dublin is such a mess when there has been so little regionalisation in this country.

I believe decentralisation and the spacial stratergy will hep with regionalisation. This government has shown more than lip service to regionalisation. The re-opening the Western Rail Corridor from Sligo to Limerickwould be an great piece of national infrastructure that would bring benefits to the entire west of Ireland.

Please support this campaign:
Link

Down in Cork Youghal and Midleton need to linked to Cork City by rail.

Just as the government has invested in Luas for Dublin - the government has to realise there is 25 more countries there that deserve better rail links.

The Dublin to Kerry Train service needs to be improved as well.

arcadegame2004

Originally posted by CathyMoran
Recruiting locally may be all well and good, but it does not deal with the current situation - these people are working in Dublin, they have their lives there...there have always been regional competitions for jobs.

The civil-servant in Dublin, with a house worth 700,000 euro (which seems to me to be far from unusual from what I have read on advertisements in estate-agent windows there) who stubbornly refuses to move from Dublin to another part of the country has little sympathy from me. The sale-price alone would more than pay for a house in the parts of the country where average house-prices are more like 200,000 euro, and they would have loads of money left over from the sale.

It has been claimed that some of the trade-unions have been urging their members to reject decentralisation point-blank. I find this despicable behaviour but hardly surprising considering the unions links to Labour with its anti-rural and anti-provincial mindset. They are putting party-interest before the national-interest.

CathyMoran

arcadegame2004 wrote:

The civil-servant in Dublin, with a house worth 700,000 euro (which seems to me to be far from unusual from what I have read on advertisements in estate-agent windows there) who stubbornly refuses to move from Dublin to another part of the country has little sympathy from me. The sale-price alone would more than pay for a house in the parts of the country where average house-prices are more like 200,000 euro, and they would have loads of money left over from the sale.

It has been claimed that some of the trade-unions have been urging their members to reject decentralisation point-blank. I find this despicable behaviour but hardly surprising considering the unions links to Labour with its anti-rural and anti-provincial mindset. They are putting party-interest before the national-interest.

From the friends of mine who are civil servants none of them have these so called 700K houses, most are lucky if they have houses at all. These people have families and lives in Dublin. If you are trying to argue that it will bring extra jobs down the country - do remember these jobs are MOVING from Dublin...please be more open minded and try and see other peoples views also.

The_Conductor

Arcadegame2004- as pointed out to you by several people (I've actually taken the time to read all the postings on this thread), the average civil servant does not have a house worth 700,000 Euro- anyone who thinks that is true is plain living in cloud cuckoo land. The average house price in Dublin (according to the IAVI) is currently Euro 380,000- and depending on the demographics of the age group a large number of people may be living in flats/apartments as opposed to "houses" (and flats and apartments in Dublin are cheaper than they are in Cork and Waterford according to last Thursdays Property section). In addition- and this is not disputed, second hand house prices have fallen 4.2% in the first six months of the year in Dublin (new house prices do continue to rise however). Your utter and complete nonsensical financial daydreams are- nonsense.

Trade Unions have NOT been urging their members to reject benchmarking. The CPSU, who represent the vast bulk of those lower civil servants being decentralised (over 7,500 of the 10,500 positions and over 4,000 of the first wave) are actively in favour of decentralisation, if you bothered to read the press releases on their website and in the national press you would see as much. The next largest union- the PSEU- representing junior management, has been rather mute, but were actually among the parties who initially mooted decentralisation (of course with the consultation and agreement of all- not some hair-brained idea foisted on people from on-high). The sole union to actively canvas members against decentralisation (in the civil service) is to the best of my knowledge the AHCS- and even then that must be read with a caveat.

What you are bleating is plain and utter nonsense.

Vis-a-vis local recruitment for the civil service and 9% unemployment in Wexford...... so? What are you advocating? Rounding up the 9% and offering them positions in the civil service? Thats presuming that the 9% are actually actively seeking employment. The Civil Service Commission was established for a number of reasons- among which was to eschew political favouritism and make all appointments by merit and above board. It is an insult to civil servants to insinuate that local recruitment (which does currently occur, contrary to your ascertain) short circuit this process. Thus, all current, and future civil servants, should be made sit their aptitude tests, their various tests and their interview panels, to ensure fair play when offering employment in the public sector.

The

arcadegame2004 wrote:

They are putting party-interest before the national-interest.

is quite simply untrue...... Civil Servants, if you were unaware, are percluded from engagement in politics or having membership of any political party. This is also the reason from one of your earlier rants- that civil servants are often asked to adjudicate as electoral clerks- because civil servants are seen as impartial.


There are competitions for specific localities- I remember seeing an "open competition for the post of revenue administrator in Limerick"- that is- it is open to everyone and anyone- but the position is in Limerick. It is not limited to the people of Limerick- there are no parochial politics and shenanigans at play....

By the same coin- civil servants may have entered the civil service under competions specifying they are only employed in Dublin- and their positions are now being decentralised elsewhere...... You glossed over that point when it was brought up earlier in this thread.

Seems like a brilliant game- bash the civil servant, doesn't it? Well- if you want to play- 1) try making sure that your facts are right and 2) don't be surprised when the people who you annoy correct you.......

Shane.

cdebru

Cork wrote:

Holidays? The private secor get 29 inc bank holidays. Does the public sector get more?

Career Breaks? How long can public servants take off & then return to their job?

How many public servants work after 5pm?

Having worked in both the private and public sector - they are some good perks in the public sector.

the private sector get 29 inc bank holidays every single company no exceptions??
do the public sector get more tell us
dont know how long this also available in some private companies
loads i know one civil servant rarely gets home before 9pm 3 nights a week doing overtime
some is paid for some they have to take time off for in lieu

besides that whats the point cork this has nothing to do with decentralisation
all of these will apply wether the civil servant is in dublin or anywhere else

cdebru

arcadegame2004 wrote:

The civil-servant in Dublin, with a house worth 700,000 euro (which seems to me to be far from unusual from what I have read on advertisements in estate-agent windows there) who stubbornly refuses to move from Dublin to another part of the country has little sympathy from me. The sale-price alone would more than pay for a house in the parts of the country where average house-prices are more like 200,000 euro, and they would have loads of money left over from the sale.

It has been claimed that some of the trade-unions have been urging their members to reject decentralisation point-blank. I find this despicable behaviour but hardly surprising considering the unions links to Labour with its anti-rural and anti-provincial mindset. They are putting party-interest before the national-interest.

has it occured to you that alot of civil servants dont even own a house so they are not in for any kind of a windfall
also what estate agents window gave the occupation of the current owner
i have never seen a house advertised anywhere were the occupation of the current owner was given
lastly if a civil servant really want ed to move to wexford or anywhere else it would make no difference what their union said
as can be seen by the 2000 odd people who did apply mainly for jobs in places like drogheda where presumbably they are already living
also if anyone is putting party interest in front of the interest of the nation it would have to be your friends in ff and the pds who picked the locations for decentalisation purely on the basis of what would benefit them at the next election
remember parlon 's posters

The_Conductor

Another little point- that hasn't been mentioned- not all of the jobs being decentralised are in Dublin.....

E.g. the Department of Agriculture are decentralising their Cork staff to Macroom.... etc.

cdebru- yes, actual amount of holidays depends 1) Rank of the civil servant- the higher the rank the more holidays (as in the private sector), 2) length of tenure- an additional days annual leave is granted after 5 years and then 10 years service.

For an EO in the civil service, basic annual leave is 21 days, which can be supplemented by up to a maximum of 1.5 days per month by working unpaid overtime hours (any additional hours are simply lost, paid overtime does not exist for most administrative staff).

In recognition of Christmas and Easter- as civil servants do not get Christmas bonuses (unlike the private sector), some departments allow a "privilege day" that is a day that the entire Department is closed, over and above regular leave, from which a day is not deducted from annual leave.

The other leave entitlements- hmmm- if you get married they will give you upto 5 additional days leave ( with the caveat your annual leave entitlement may not exceed 25 days- so if you have 21 days annual leave- you get 4 days for marriage etc).

Re: an earlier post- on career breaks- a minimum 6 month break can be taken and a maximum can normally be negotiated with Personnel officers. Yes, its nice being able to do it, but it is at a price. During a career break you cannot be employed fulltime- maybe someone else knows the rules on it- I couldn't be bothered raiding the Department of Finance section on circulars again....

Re: Exam leave- (unlike the big accountancy firms here who give a months study leave per subject- civil servants studying accountancy get 1 day study leave per subject, plus the morning of the exam off (anything over this has to come out from their annual leave.....))

People seem to have a totally biassed and uniformed view of the working conditions that civil servants actually have.

Re: Gauranteed job for life- all new recruits are recruited on a 1 year contract basis. In addition they are required to complete 2 years probation- of which their contract year may or may not count towards. Is there a single job in the private sector where new starts are put through a 2 year probation (and possibly longer)??

cdebru

hi smcarrick
i was just point ing out that really it doesn't matter because all of this will remain unaffected by decentralisation i presume that a civil servant in cork has the same holiday entitlements as one in dublin and will continue too

your right though there is a lot of uninformed opinion about civil servants and employees of semistates etc
like they are all living in 700 000e houses
come and go as they please
cant get sacked
set their own wages
take six months off to holiday in their second house in the cayman islands
all have their own yachts moored at the marina in malahide
dont like anyone outside of the pale some think the country ends there
even though a significant number of them come from outside the pale
and of course then there is benchmarking
didn't they make areal fool of charlie mc creevy with that one

but what can you expect when so many people read rags like the sunday independent
and its stable mates

uncivilservant

Off topic, but...

smccarrick wrote:

For an EO in the civil service, basic annual leave is 21 days, which can be supplemented by up to a maximum of 1.5 days per month by working unpaid overtime hours (any additional hours are simply lost, paid overtime does not exist for most administrative staff).

In recognition of Christmas and Easter- as civil servants do not get Christmas bonuses (unlike the private sector), some departments allow a "privilege day" that is a day that the entire Department is closed, over and above regular leave, from which a day is not deducted from annual leave.

The privilege day is an anachronism left over from british rule, when (her majesty's) civil servants got two days off in honour of occasions relating to the royal family. Post-independence, the entitlement to these days were retained, but in this day and age they should be done away with & replaced with 2 days annual leave.

career breaks- a minimum 6 month break can be taken and a maximum can normally be negotiated with Personnel officers. Yes, its nice being able to do it, but it is at a price. During a career break you cannot be employed fulltime- maybe someone else knows the rules on it- I couldn't be bothered raiding the Department of Finance section on circulars again....

From memory:

You can take between 6 months and 5 years off to either travel or start a business.

You can take several career breaks in your career, as long as the intervening period is longer than the previous career break, up to a combined maximum of 5 years.

You cannot take any other paid employment during this time, other than self-employment, and cannot claim unemployment assistance or benefit.

People seem to have a totally biassed and uniformed view of the working conditions that civil servants actually have?

Unfortunately the repeat offenders have been corrected on numerous occasions but seem to be incapable of listening.

uncivilservant

arcadegame2004 wrote:

The civil-servant in Dublin, with a house worth 700,000 euro (which seems to me to be far from unusual from what I have read on advertisements in estate-agent windows there)

Have you any idea how ridiculous this statement is?

Let me get this straight - civil servants live in Dublin and you've seen houses in dublin selling for €700,000, so therefore dublin civil servants live in €700,000 houses? Are you serious?

Have you any idea how much the average civil servant is paid? Or what mortgage they could afford?

who stubbornly refuses to move from Dublin to another part of the country has little sympathy from me.

I'm sure they'll all be crying into their tea tomorrow morning. What are you suggesting? Guns to the head and a forced march?

The sale-price alone would more than pay for a house in the parts of the country where average house-prices are more like 200,000 euro, and they would have loads of money left over from the sale.

What parts? What sale price? What average?

Do you have any facts you'd like to share?

It has been claimed that some of the trade-unions have been urging their members to reject decentralisation point-blank.

Where? You're not confusing / misrepresenting SIPTU's request that their membership not cooperate with the CAF process by any chance?

cyclopath2001

The many side-trips into dis'ing civil servants and comparing their conditions with other jobs highlight the poverty of the business case for decentralisation. Having failed to come up with an argument based on cost/benefit (indeed having failed to quantify the cost), the promoters are resorting to 'black propaganda' trying to bully people into reolocating by harnessing begrudger/anti-public servant sentiment.

arcadegame2004

The Dublin-mindset is alive and well I see. I'm sorry but when I have looked in estate-agents windows in Dublin I find it incredibly hard to come across a sing one that isn't 700,000.

Even the sale of a 380,000 house would pay for a house far away from Dublin.

Dublin only has a 2% unemployment-rate. Wexford county has a 9% unemployment-rate.

As McCreevy correctly said a while back, if you don't have deadlines then it doesn't happen.

The Government will lose as many votes as they will retain if they ditch decentralisation.

Hello Dublin! We exist!

The_Conductor

arcadegame2004- you just don't get it do you?
Where did you pull that statistic about Dublin's employment statistics from?
Seeing as you like statistics- the official statistics from the CSO are as follows:

Please see this link:
http://www.cso.ie/archive/2004/qnhs/liveregister/analysis/lregan_june2004.pdf

The official statistic, as compiled by the CSO- the central Statistics office, states that the current unemployment rate in Dublin is almost 27% of all unemployed people in the country (a total of 44,043 as of the 1st of June 2004, the latest available figures) , and the unemployment rate in Wexford, is a total of 6,083 people- or only almost 1/8 as many as Dublin......

There are streets in Dublin with more unemployed people than there are in the entirety of Wexford- note page 9 of above report (statistics on Cumberland Street registrations).

But it really doesn't matter how many hard facts anyone here shows you- does it? You have gotten a bee in your bonnet- those Jackeens in Dublin are shortchanging the rest of the country......

Cop yourself on.

Victor

arcadegame2004 wrote:

The Dublin-mindset is alive and well I see. I'm sorry but when I have looked in estate-agents windows in Dublin I find it incredibly hard to come across a sing one that isn't 700,000.

http://www2.myhome.ie/search/search_results.asp Dublin properties under €700,000 ... result 1 to 180....

arcadegame2004 wrote:

Even the sale of a 380,000 house would pay for a house far away from Dublin.

So what? There is a particular reason that that a Dublin house has a €380,000 price-tag. Desirability. There is a particular reason that that an Edenmore house has a €170,000 price-tag. Lack of desirability.

arcadegame2004 wrote:

Dublin only has a 2% unemployment-rate. Wexford county has a 9% unemployment-rate.

Let me be the first to scream "market forces!"

therecklessone

arcadegame2004 wrote:

The Dublin-mindset is alive and well I see.

As is culchie chip-on-the-shoulder resentment...

arcadegame2004 wrote:

I'm sorry but when I have looked in estate-agents windows in Dublin I find it incredibly hard to come across a sing one that isn't 700,000.

Think about that. No, think about it. Are you telling me that a person with say 5-10 years service in the civil service could afford the mortgage on a €700,000 house?

The_Conductor

therecklessone wrote:

Are you telling me that a person with say 5-10 years service in the civil service could afford the mortgage on a €700,000 house?

Allowing the standard rules (over 40k = 4 times annual + 1/2 secondary) as a rulestick for calculating- and being generous, stating that the person is a HEO with 15 years experience (and also presuming their partner is working fulltime)- the very maximum the person would be given by a reputable lending institution for mortgage purposes would be less than 240k- which is less than the average price of a house nationally- never mind in Dublin.

arcadegame2004 is living in his/her own little imaginery world.

Link to the current civil service payscales for Arcadegame2004's benefit- not that I imagine he/she is going to actually read them:

http://www.finance.gov.ie/viewdoc.asp?fn=/documents/circulars/circular172004fig.htm

At the risk of stating the obvious- this thread is gone seriously off-topic IMHO. I'm beginning to wonder whether some of the replies are deliberate trolling......

cdebru

yeah have to agree
its meant to be about the merits or lack there of decentralisation
its supposed to be what is in the best interest of good government for Ireland
not about how nice wexford is or how happy civil servants are in limerick
now does arcadegame or cork have any arguements that could justify this madness
nothing to do with chips on shoulders
holidays house prices flexitime or their general dislike of civil servants and dublin

Victor

Reversing the logic, I wonder if people have to move to more expensive houses, will the government pay them?

cyclopath2001

I hear that houses in Killarney are more expensive than Dublin & in other towns the prices are being jacked up so as to profiteer from the incomers.

Expect people to be 'encouraged' to move rather than commute. The Government needs the money from the stamp duty & other taxes on house moves to pay for the scheme. Local authorities will slap on levies once the people have moved in.

Anyone know by how much will taxes have to increase?

Will hospitals & social services be closed in Dublin to help pay for for this scheme?

The_Conductor

cyclopath2001 wrote:

Will hospitals & social services be closed in Dublin to help pay for for this scheme?

After 7 years under McCreevy everything has been cut to the skin and bone. If more hospitals and social services are closed- there would be civil war. In any case- if you believe Tom Parlon- all civil servants are foaming at the bit, trying to get out of the capital. No financial recompense needed for anyone- as a matter of fact- it coins money all round..... Ye gods- wish I could have some of his happy pills....

ishmael whale

While lack of volunteers may cause a very direct obstacle to a voluntary decentralisation scheme, the concentration on numbers applying tends to crowd out the more significant issues. A proportion of the civil service might like to work in the Bahamas. That doesn’t make it a sensible location for the Department of Marine.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2004/0907/decentralisation.html

Decentralisation deadline today

07 September 2004 13:44
Today is the final deadline for civil servants to apply for decentralisation outside Dublin using the Central Applications Facility. However, the Department of Finance is not expected to publish the latest figures for those seeking relocation until next week. The original deadline for such applications was in July, but was extended because of the low level of interest displayed by civil servants. Some union sources have said that a last minute surge of enthusiasm by staff is unlikely………………………..

cyclopath2001

ishmael whale wrote:

Today is the final deadline for civil servants to apply for decentralisation outside Dublin using the Central Applications Facility. However, the Department of Finance is not expected to publish the latest figures for those seeking relocation until next week.

It'll take a week for the spin-doctors to massage the figures.

There's a strong chance that the numbers will eventually drop as some applications were speculative.

Unfortunately, some areas, regarded as 'back-office' will be aggressively targetted to get 'bums on seats' and moved at any expense in order to save face for the government. Expect existing IT staff to be dumped, replaced by people with zero talent for IT (but a desire to relocate), backed up by even more outside contractors than already employed, who will probably be based in Dublin......

ishmael whale

cyclopath2001 wrote:

Unfortunately, some areas, regarded as 'back-office' will be aggressively targetted to get 'bums on seats' and moved at any expense in order to save face for the government. Expect existing IT staff to be dumped, replaced by people with zero talent for IT (but a desire to relocate), backed up by even more outside contractors than already employed, who will probably be based in Dublin......

Indeed. Even opponents of the programme too easily accept the idea that ‘back office’ and/or ‘operational’ areas can be put anywhere without implications, partly because existing decentralised offices are pointed to as being ‘successful’.
However, when previous decentralisations are described as ‘successful’ all this typically means is that they managed to find staff to fill an office. There’s little actual assessment as to the impact those moves have had on costs and service delivery.
There are clear indications that reality cannot be suspended just because a work area is labelled ‘operational’. For example, the Legal Aid Board’s move to Cahirciveen has left it with a bizarre and costly setup of two head offices with the CEO expected to operate out of both. Equally, the cost overruns on the Forestry computer system seem to have been contributed to by staff rotation caused by decentralisation. There are other examples of decentralisation adding to costs in operational areas, and this is even without any systematic investigation of what the real experience has been.

http://www.farmersjournal.ie/2003/1108/ruralliving/countrylifestyle/feature.shtml
“In 1997 €5million was allocated for a computer system to manage Ireland's forestry industry. Six years and €15million later, someone realised it wasn't going to work and shouted stop …………… Separation from the Department of Agriculture and decentralisation got most of the blame. When the Department was moved to Wexford, its information technology unit had only four full-time staff, none of whom had any experience of systems development. …..”

uncivilservant

As predicted, following the CAF deadline I've been hearing many, many stories of people with no intention of going anywhere working the system - applying for their own jobs, planning to "change their mind" when time comes to move. I wonder will the second set of CAF figures reflect this in a jump in the numbers of staff choosing to relocate with their parent department?

cyclopath2001

uncivilservant wrote:

planning to "change their mind" when time comes to move.

I'm not sure I would agree with such 'wrecking tactics' as once the decentralisation juggernaut has started towards a particular FF constituency, it could be hard to stop.

There could be other reasons why genuine applicants might change their minds. An estate agent's brochure dropped through my East-Dublin letterbox today, featuring houses in Kildare, I think that the prices are nearly the same as in Dublin.

uncivilservant

cyclopath2001 wrote:

I'm not sure I would agree with such 'wrecking tactics' as once the decentralisation juggernaut has started towards a particular FF constituency, it could be hard to stop.

Unfortunately it has nothing to do with wrecking tactics and everything to do with looking after number 1 - all for a few extra years of peace and quiet.

An incredibly short sighted course of action, albeit completely understandable under the circumstances.

mrhappy42

ishmael whale wrote:

http://www.farmersjournal.ie/2003/1108/ruralliving/countrylifestyle/feature.shtml

Lets just say that if this was the private sector and the following had happened:

"According to the comptroller and auditor general's report on the saga, the project was "not well managed from the point of view of good planning, quantification of the required work, deployment of resources, monitoring of progress and taking effective action to deal with the emerging difficulties''."

and the financial people in a company had issued something like:

"The Department of Finance raised concerns about the project, particularly about its management, in 1998 and again in 1999. In each case, it was given assurances that matters were under control."

That the project manager etc. would have been fired a long...long time ago.

Used to work in a place that did work for various for various depts including the dept of marine and if it was a company I think it would have gone bust a long time ago.

Same goes for other departments we did work for in the past.

Dont get me wrong I've seen banks and Insurance companies waste just as much money on badly run IT projects. So not picking on civil/private specifically.

Some departments have a good culture and are dynamic but the majority I have worked for do not encourage any form of ownership/initiative and tend not to have a very dynamic environment. Again a lot of private companies dont have this either...but they tend to not be around to long.

Maybe the hope of decentralisation is the generate a new culture within the departments...but that might be hoping for just that bit to much :-)

Its a shame it was not handeled better it could have been a good starting point for something new.

cyclopath2001

For the Irish Independent, September 10:

"Rules shake-up to block private sector wooing civil servants
Under the code, civil servants who hold positions designated under ethics legislation must, within 12 months of resigning or retiring, obtain the approval of the Outside Appointments Board, the Secretary General or Head of Office, before taking up any outside appointment."

Looks like the Government is shutting off escape routes for staff reluctant to relocate.

jd

cyclopath2001 wrote:

For the Irish Independent, September 10:

"Rules shake-up to block private sector wooing civil servants
.........."

Looks like the Government is shutting off escape routes for staff reluctant to relocate.

I think it will only apply to the most senior of posts. I mean, you could hardly allow a commissioner in Comreg to accept a position with Eircom or Esat, or an Assistant Secretary in The Dept of Transport accept a post with RyanAir or the Road Hauliers Association.

The_Conductor

ishmael whale wrote:

While lack of volunteers may cause a very direct obstacle to a voluntary decentralisation scheme, the concentration on numbers applying tends to crowd out the more significant issues.

Some union sources have said that a last minute surge of enthusiasm by staff is unlikely………………………..

Hmmmm- the fact that the CAF system was inaccessible to large numbers of people who might have applied coming up to the deadline might mitigate the possible "surge expected"........

Very tempted to start a poll- how many civil servants who were tempted to submit a CAF application were twarted by technical failure of the CAF application\ammendment system.......

S.

cyclopath2001

The 'flurry' may have been people who had already applied adding the IT & health locations to their list of preferences.

Or, it could have been staff making tactical applications to avoid being shortlisted to train in their replacements before being shunted to other jobs.

One must ask why Parlon chose to speculate now, instead of waiting for the actual figures?

This sounds like more 'spin'.

C.

pork99

I apologise if this has been mentioned before (there's only so much time in the day to read boards.ie and attempt to scratch a living) but isn't it the case that the IDA have admitted that they cannot expect in the future to attract companies to Ireland which will create jobs at the same level as in the past? (They're going to Eastern Europe and Asia now) Given this fact isn't it likely that the govt. is using civil service decentralisation as a substitute for the decline in the number of IDA funded overseas companies coming in and creating jobs in their constituencies?

cyclopath2001

>>isn't it likely that the govt. is using civil service decentralisation as a substitute for the decline in the number of IDA funded overseas companies coming in and creating jobs in their constituencies?<<

It depends on what you mean.

If you mean that the government wants to give the illusion that it is creating jobs in their constituencies, I would agree.

Some of the less carefully worded statements have referred to the relocated jobs as 'new' jobs, which is very mis-leading.

It is disgusting to think that one's job and career prospects now depend on chosing to live near a particular minister.

Victor

I'm just wondering will Decentralisation simply become privatisation, especially in areas like IT? Seeing as they are corrupting think like the frontpage of www.gov.ie and putting http://www.publicjobscaf.ie/ up with institutions like the President and the Irish Statute book.

Cork

cyclopath2001 wrote:

If you mean that the government wants to give the illusion that it is creating jobs in their constituencies, I would agree.



QUOTE]
If you mean that the government wants to give put more economic activity in the regions, I would think that it is about time.

There has been a huge surge in thosr who wish to decentralise. Figures are to be annonced during the week.

Fair play to companies like FEXCO in Kilorglin and Gng hotels in Kenmare in showing there is little need to be in the capital.

We have came a long way since we inherited our civil service from the British.

uncivilservant

Victor wrote:

I'm just wondering will Decentralisation simply become privatisation, especially in areas like IT? Seeing as they are corrupting think like the frontpage of www.gov.ie and putting http://www.publicjobscaf.ie/ up with institutions like the President and the Irish Statute book.

We don't call it privatisation - we call it outsourcing. It's quite the mantra these days.

uncivilservant

There has been a huge surge in thosr who wish to decentralise. Figures are to be annonced during the week.

Really? Care to share any of your insight?

We have came a long way since we inherited our civil service from the British.

Rather unfortunate then that some seem incapable of shaking off that nasty chip on their shoulder.

cyclopath2001

>>If you mean that the government wants to give put more economic activity in the regions, I would think that it is about time.<<

There's no evidence that the relocation scheme will put more economic activity in the regions. There have been no studies to demonstrate that this will be the outcome. In many cases, it is unlikely that the relocated staff will chose to live in the towns favoured by FF. The only new jobs will be for cleaners & these will come at the expense of firing cleaners in Dublin.

>>Fair play to companies like FEXCO in Kilorglin and Gng hotels in Kenmare in showing there is little need to be in the capital.<<

How about some fair play for those who want to live and work in the capital? If location is so unimportant, why not allow people continue to work there and save the huge cost of retraining everyone & the insanity of assigning people to jobs based on nothing more than their willingness to move somewhere?

>>We have came a long way since we inherited our civil service from the British.<<

Yes indeed, Dubliners need no longer feel inferior.

C.

cyclopath2001

>>I'm just wondering will Decentralisation simply become privatisation,<<

The relocation scheme is a convenient vehicle to dislodge the remaining opposition to IT outsourcing, mostly from among the more experienced staff who've seen poor quality of work from the private sector. Finance, in particular has been fighting for years to break the will of the larger IT departments & exercise direct control over them. Already starved, for years, of IT staff due to the inability to directly recruit people with IT aptitude, this scheme will drive out many of the remaining experienced staff and force the use of out-sourcing.

Watch out for the announcements about World Class Datacenters.

The irony is that once the the new offices are staffed with staff too inexperienced to ask the out-sourcers any hard questions, the work itself will be done back in the back-offices of the out-sourcing companies in Dublin & abroad.

The_Conductor

Not sure if this has come up before.
All those on the Dublin panels who sat previous civil service examinations awaiting possible placement in the civil service were given until the 2nd of September to send in a limited CAF application form. These new recruits are to be used in the initial decentralised groups to the especially difficult to fill positions. In addition- all current Dublin panels are due to lapse on the 31st of December, and all future recruitment, is to be limited to the regions.

S.

arcadegame2004

Interesting reading in today's Irish Independent.

http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=39&si=1249347&issue_id=11411

[/QUOTE]Last-minute boost for decentralisation


THE Government's decentralisation plans to relocate 10,000 public service jobs nationwide has been given a boost with a surge of applications just hours before the deadline.

Official figures revealing how many have asked for priority placing in the move around the country will be released later this week, but the figure could be in the region of 7,000 or above.

The last-minute dash to submit applications came as 1,300 transfer jobs in IT and the health sector close to the capital in Drogheda and Naas became available.

A Department of Finance spokesman said the official number of applicants will be announced this week but he could not confirm reports that the figure could be as high as 9,000.

The spokesman confirmed that the Central Applications Facility, the web-based system handling the applications, was put under pressure because of the high level of late demand just hours before the deadline last Tuesday.

The finance spokesman denied that an "artificially extended deadline" had been given with the decision not to release figures until later this week.

"Those who applied inside the deadline are entitled to priority. A more detailed analysis will be given later this week," he said.

Sources last night said application numbers could have swelled at the last minute if staff working in state agencies in Dublin applied to fill the 2,200 regional positions. When figures were published in July, only 292 of state agency workers had applied for transfer jobs. At that time, more than 2,000 Dublin-based civil servants had applied for 6,300 regional positions.

Ann O'Loughlin[/QUOTE]

So maybe it's back on the rails after all, and the regions outside of Dublin can start benefiting from it. I hope it will help Co.Wexford, where I live. I resent our 9% unemployment-rate down here, compared to Dublin's 2%. The Government before now has done virtually nothing to attract firms to this part of the country. We are hardly on the periphery of the country geographically, so I fail to understand why unemployment is so high in this county.

Victor

arcadegame2004 wrote:

[RE: Wexford] We are hardly on the periphery of the country geographically,

Which part of "on the coast" don't you understand? Oh, sorry, you mean the other Wexford, that well known Midlands county.

pete

Victor wrote:

Which part of "on the coast" don't you understand? Oh, sorry, you mean the other Wexford, that well known Midlands county.

i think he means the wexford that's near drogheda.

either that or the one near naas.

arcadegame2004

Victor wrote:

Which part of "on the coast" don't you understand? Oh, sorry, you mean the other Wexford, that well known Midlands county.

The Dublin mindset is alive and well I see!

sceptre

arcadegame2004 wrote:

The Dublin mindset is alive and well I see!

I'm unsure as to whether you've ever seen an atlas or a geography book but when the capital of an island country is situated on the middle of the east coast and you're examining the positioning of an area that is placed on the extreme southeast of the country on the coast, by definition it's on the periphery. May not have stopped the EPA moving their headquarters down there a few years go but it's still on the periphery. I may be suffering from "midwest mindset" (whatever that might be) but a fact remains a fact when it's a fact to begin with.

cyclopath2001

>>Sources last night said application numbers could have swelled at the last minute if staff working in state agencies in Dublin applied to fill the 2,200 regional positions. When figures were published in July, only 292 of state agency workers had applied for transfer jobs. At that time, more than 2,000 Dublin-based civil servants had applied for 6,300 regional positions.<<

This is the sound of the government spin machine starting up. 'Sources' is usually a code word for government media handlers wanting to push out misleading information without being held to account for it.

The statistics will probably present a more confusing story.

How many of the numbers are working in Dublin and how many will have to be re-trained at considerable expense & loss of productivity?

The_Conductor

I'm attaching an excel spreadsheet of preliminary predictions of numbers applying for the different decentralised positions (as compiled by the CPSU) for all grades up to Principle Officer.
This data was compiled shortly after the Flynn Report, and is considered current.

Can we ever start dealing with facts instead of innuendo, and name calling.

S.

arcadegame2004

I'm unsure as to whether you've ever seen an atlas or a geography book but when the capital of an island country is situated on the middle of the east coast and you're examining the positioning of an area that is placed on the extreme southeast of the country on the coast, by definition it's on the periphery. May not have stopped the EPA moving their headquarters down there a few years go but it's still on the periphery. I may be suffering from "midwest mindset" (whatever that might be) but a fact remains a fact when it's a fact to begin with.

By "Dublin mindset" I mean the arrogant view that the Government should favour Dublin all the time over the regions in terms of encouraging multinationals to set up there and regional development. It has been going on for far too long and has resulted in many areas outside of Dublin being ignored. It is ridiculous that Wexford should have an unemployment rate stuck in the bad old days of 9%, while Dublin's is just 2%. I hope decentralisation will help the economic-development of regions like mine, whatever Derek McDowell make think about "dingy pubs" outside of Dublin.

jd

arcadegame2004 wrote:

It is ridiculous that Wexford should have an unemployment rate stuck in the bad old days of 9%, while Dublin's is just 2%.

I'm from Wexford, and if I was setting up a company I'd be reluctant to set it up in Wexford. Like it or not, Wexford has a reputation for worker militancy over stupid issues.

The_Conductor

arcadegame2004 wrote:

By "Dublin mindset" I mean the arrogant view that the Government should favour Dublin all the time over the regions in terms of encouraging multinationals to set up there and regional development. It has been going on for far too long and has resulted in many areas outside of Dublin being ignored. It is ridiculous that Wexford should have an unemployment rate stuck in the bad old days of 9%, while Dublin's is just 2%. I hope decentralisation will help the economic-development of regions like mine, whatever Derek McDowell make think about "dingy pubs" outside of Dublin.

Once again - I'm sorry to have to totally ignore your statement - because unfortunately you are pulling figures from thin air - they are utter and total waffle.

According to the latest CSO employment figures (August 2004) (link: http://www.cso.ie/publications/labour/lregan.pdf )

Dublin (and that is Dublin alone, not including any of the surrounding areas) has an unemployment rate of 44,953 persons, including 5,683 people signing on at the Cumberland Street office alone.

Wexford has 7,031 persons unemployed.

The current national unemployment rate is 4.3%, a fall of 0.1% on July.

By region Dublin has 26% of the total number of people unemployed nationally, the South East (all of it, not just Wexford- i.e. Carlow, Kilkenny, South Tipperary, Waterford City and County, Wexford whole county) has a national total of 12.4% of the total number of people unemployed nationally.

There was a seasonal decrease in unemployment in both Dublin and Wexford in the last month.

Once again, as I mentioned previously on this thread- please research your data before throwing totally wild assumptions up in the air as fact- when, as you plainly see, it just is not the case..........

S.