what mobo / cpu

elexes

im thinking of upgrading my motherboard and processor + hsf

im looking for a good one to overclock and use aircooling .

ive not been looking at motherboards for ages and dont know what one would be the best to use . ive allready got 2 sticks of ddr 400 and 2 sata 10k raptors that id like to put into this but i want to overclock the computer a good bit .

in the past ive been buying abit motherboards along with amd cpu's

whats the best mobo i could get for under 200 ? with overclocking in mind . also ive been reading about new bartons not bing overclockable ? is that the case or was what i was reading pure bs ?


o and the most important bit . what hsf should i use with it ? im not bothered with the noise of it as long as it dosnt drown out the noise of my speakers


thx ( the more sata ports the better )

and raid 1/0

tman

erm, i take it that you're looking for a socket A processor + mobo?

the nf7-s seems to be the sata socket A board of choice
http://komplett.ie/k/ki.asp?sku=117213&cks=PRL

i'm well chuffed with my vanilla NF7 v2.0
the nf7-s only has 2 sata connectors though:dunno:

in terms of overclocking, the mobile athlons are supposed to be the mutts nuts. you'll need to shop around for them though (i think elara stock them...)
they run cooler and don't have locked multiplyers afaik.

if you're willing to spend €200 on a mainboard, you might as well go for an amd64 system though

Col_Loki

whats the best mobo i could get for under 200 ?

Two systems to think about, AMD64 and P4.

The main problem you will find with the P4 overclocking is that your Ram performance will take a hit as you wont be able to run it 1:1 with FSB. The AMD64 can run memory out of sync without performance decrease (mabye a tiny one - nothin really).

Do you want to go AMD or Intel?

The AMD64's motherboards are now available with PCI/AGP lock and with the newer stepping (newcastle core) which is a majour overclocking advantage over the previous versions.

The P4 overclocks very well , if you have alot of encoding to do then P4 is a kick ass system.

Depending on your budget the Socket 939 AMD64 is out, chips will be €400-500 with mobo's ~150-200.
AMD64 Socket 754 , Mobo ~€150 , chips ~€200 ........
P4 , the same as Socket754

also ive been reading about new bartons not bing overclockable ? is that the case or was what i was reading pure bs ?

New barton desktop chips are multiplier locked so overclock using FSB like the P4's......... still overclockable.

The mobile chips can be used in desktops , they are better overclockers due to lower stock voltage and have multipliers unlocked.

TBH i think XP's are out the door, the AMD64 is a far far better choice . The socket A's are old, unless your going for a budget system stay away from em.

Also think about holding on a few months mabye as BTX and PCI Express are comming out soon............... so many threads on the tec forum bout it.

elexes

cant wait cpu died about 5 mins ago . want this computer up and running asap

Col_Loki

Ok that makes sence, any inckling for Intel or AMD? Main Usage?

Main price range? U happy to move from socket a?

elexes

im thinking just staying with amd xp untill the end of the summer when pci express and ddr sata2 get released . as i plan on upgrading once they come out . so im not sure maby going with the nf7-s would be a good ida again . but the mobile processor sounds good .

what about the hsf ?

Col_Loki

CPU : AMD64 2800+ ......€179 - overclockers.co.uk
Motherboard : Gigabyte GA-K8NS Pro nForce3 250 ........ €125 - overclockers.co.uk

Thats €300

Id spend a little more and get the 3000+ mabye. Pop a Zalman7000alcu and that should overclock pretty well.

The XP is dead and gone at this stage, a cheap P4 and cheap P4 board mabye? If you want to have some performance for the next few months..........and also theres DDRII comming out round Xmas (mabye later for AMD) so are you going to upgrade for that too? BTX will take quite a while to be a standard ...........

Better advise would be to get a decent system that would do you till Xmas , being realistic its the start of '05 before you should buy IMO. Other than that you might end up with a BTX case etc when it has flop'd , or and up paying way over average.

It would take roughly an XP at 2.4-2.6ghz to compare to a stock AMD64 3000 / 3200+. The mobiles are good overclockers but your only talkin about gettin close to what the AMD64's do as standard.

But if your happy with a more budget system like the XP then thats prob the best choice. It will take longer than expected for the new tech to become slightly mainstream and buying before that your paying premium rates

elexes

sounds good .

ill go with that so

Col_Loki

lol just give me a min or two to report how the 2800+ is overclocking with the new AGP/PCI lock and ill let you know for certain which AMD64 is the best (ie if its worth the bit extra for 3000+)...............

elexes

rar will do . looking at the mobo now

Col_Loki

The main thing is the revised stepping CG on the newer chips is a decent overclocker, the older CO stepping isint that hot for it. All the newcastle chips are CG revisions but theres no way of telling without lookin at the chip as there are clawhammer & newcastle 2800 / 3000 / 3200 / 3400

In the case of the 3200+ you can tell by the increased speed and smaller cache ie 2.2ghz. That chip is on komplett but its a little more expensive............ it should hit 2.4~2.5ghz with decent air cooling and the PCI/AGP locked board listed above. Even at stock it beats most overclocked XP's. The best option is to wait a couple of days and buy from komplett............

Mobo €108 ............. http://www.komplett.ie/k/ki.asp?sku=300671&view=detailed
CPU 3200+ €299 ............. http://www.komplett.ie/k/ki.asp?sku=300493&cks=SER

You should be talkin a very very decent machine right there (add a Zalman7000alcu for a better overclock but stock cooler will do a bit).

Am not sure if you can stretch to that? Komplett have the 3000+ for €200 if you cant?

elexes

thx for all the advice . would that epox mobo be better then the gig one u had listed from ocuk ?

Col_Loki

The epox was picked because its cheap and if you only want it for a while it will be perfect. The better version of the epox the 8KDA3+ won the Adandtech award and the MSI K8N neo won editors choice............. have a look

http://www.anandtech.com/chipsets/showdoc.html?i=2063&p=1

The MSI is comming to komplett very soon and is rated highly. If your into gaming and performance from what ive heard the AMD64 is fantastic. Ive got a pretty high overclock on the XP (2.4-2.5ghz) and id take a stock AMD64 any day!! Feel free to tell me to bugger off and go for the XP, but i made the mistake of spending a good bit on the XP's (had a couple of 2500's, 1 expensive Xp3000+, couple of boards) and i regret not going for the better Intel rig (AMD64 wasent out at the time). I made a silly mistake, the price of 64's have gone down and there now more overclocker friendly.............id love one!!

elexes

thx for the advice . not sure on the mother board still but at liest i know where to look . think ill be getting the amd64 3200 like you said but from what ive gathered its not much faster then the 3000.

ill be deciding tonight or tomorro .

Col_Loki

There are 2 versions of the AMD64 3200+.........

1) The "ClawHammer" , 2ghz , 1mb L2 Cache. Its the slightly older version

2) The "Newcastle" , 2.2ghz , 512kb L2 Cache. Its the newest one.


The differences being...........

The newcastle has 200mhz extra speed
The Clawhammer has 512kb extra cache
The newcastle is the newer revision.

Im under the impression that 200mhz makes more of a difference than the extra cache would (last time i checked). I think the extra cache is worth ~150mhz (IMHO).
So that would mean the newcastle is actually slightly faster than the clawhammer at stock.

Either the AMD3000+ or the AMD3200+ (id go for the 2.2ghz model) would be a good choice ....... there kick ass performers.

unklerosco

"The three models of Athlon 64 also have different cache architectures, so although the 3000+ and 3200+ both run at 2.0GHz, the 3000+ has only 512KB of Level 2 cache, while the 3200+ has 1MB. The 3400+ runs at 2.2GHz and has 1MB of Level 2 cache. Interestingly, the 3000+ and 3200+ performed almost identically in all six performance benchmarks, so it would appear that the increased Level 2 cache in the 3200+ really isn't worth shelling out the extra cash for."


Check www.custompc.co.uk hit reviews n labs n cpu....

Col_Loki

I wouldnt go that extreme and say the extra cache is almost useless, it obviously has performance advantages. The main thing is i think the 200mhz is more of a benifit than it..........

The 3200+ @ 2.2ghz is the chip to buy at the min i think .

Digi_Tilmitt

It could be argued that if you overclock the chip alot 1MB L2 cache would scale better with speed, though AMD chips don't seem to benefit as much from cache as p4's. I don't think the XP is dead though. They're still releasing new chipsets for it (nf2 ultra 400gb for one) and if you could get your hands on a mobile 2600+ it's pretty much guarenteed 2.5Ghz+ with decent air, more if your cooling is better. You can kill athlon64's with memory voltage due to the on die memory controller whereas you can pump any volts through an XP and they'll still come back for more. Currently running my 2800+ with 2.1volts on air cooling. 42 degrees full load.

Col_Loki

It could be argued that if you overclock the chip alot 1MB L2 cache would scale better with speed

Yea thats true. In the case of the AMD64 its hard to get new stepping (CG revision) in 1mb cache versions as theres really no way of telling before you buy. The 2.2ghz 512kb cache is the new CG core and should take advantage of the AGP/PCI lock when overclocking. The extra cache still isint a match for 200mhz speed increase IMO. On the Tbred v Bartons double the cache was worth 80-100mhz ...........

I don't think the XP is dead though. They're still releasing new chipsets for it (nf2 ultra 400gb for one) and if you could get your hands on a mobile 2600+ it's pretty much guarenteed 2.5Ghz+ with decent air

The socket A are good for a more budget solution, no one can argue with that !! But when comparing AMD64 v XP theres no contest, the AMD64 is so much faster, capable of much higher FSB, Downwardly multi unlocked, lower memory latencies, aditional performance boost with Windows64, and just plain faster.

The fact that the 64's have come down in price and have better boards for overclocking is making them a better choice than the XP by a long shot. Its still hard to beat the Xp2500+ @ 2.2ghz for €150-200 , but the price gap between that and an AMD64 solution is decreasing ..........

The voltage limit of the XP's is crazy isint it, have had mine up to 2.05v without probs. The AMD64 and P4's really cant deal with anything over 1.7v without it being pretty risky.

I wouldnt say your guarenteed 2.5ghz with the mobiles, have seen some flops. Theres definetly a good chance for 2.4ghz - 2.6ghz with decent high end air cooling. But the stock 3200+ (2.2ghz) is already performing at that level when the mobile is almost maxed out...........

What overclock do you have on the 2800+?

Digi_Tilmitt

It's running 2.4Ghz (200x12) it's a pretty old chip i'd expect much better out of a mobile xp cause my cooling is pretty good. (sp-97 with 92MM 4800rpm tornado). I'm going to try and get a xp-m this summer but i want new RAM aswell as i'm currently running 768MB DDR 333 @ 400Mhz and thats maxed out. Looking for a GB that'll do 230Mhz+ at resonable timings but it's hard to find cheap stuff. I'm a socket a fanboy

Col_Loki

I must admit i used to be a scoket A fanboy myself, still picked the AMD over the P4 C.......... which was a little crazy TBH (went for a Xp3000+ over a 2.6C).

The chips arent that bad TBH and overclock pretty well. The motherboards just arent able for high FSB, and the bandwidth is pretty bad. Also you just cant use dividers at higher FSB as it isint stable........ this is in my experience of socket A's, might have improved over the last while (fsb wise).

With a decent mobile you should be getting 2.6ghz anyway with what is high end air.

Digi_Tilmitt

Is there anywhere that sells xp-m's and ships to Ireland?

TacT

overclockers.co.uk afaik -- probably more but I noticed they have them in.

Col_Loki

Cheapest place is to get them from USA.

www.excaliberpc.com .............. they ship to eire for $13 , and are perfect for using for CPU's etc (they have a weight limit of 2lbs and max $150 - scheech). You have to use paypal BTW. They are a decent company and it only takes a few days to deliver, also they generally tell you the stepping ............. a real overclocking store (if theres $1-5 in the difference of steppings pay the little extra)!!

Digi_Tilmitt

Great thanks I might be ordering a mobile 2600+ tonight off excaliber, I'll post up the results when i get it.

Redrocket

hey did you order from them before? reason i ask is how much duty did you have to pay? duty is a real pisser

Digi_Tilmitt

I ordered last night. Never ordered off them before. If they get me for the import tax i'll post it up. Before i ordered off frozencpu.com and they marked my stuff as worth alot less to avoid tax. When I ordered stuff worth $120 they marked it as being worth $20 and when i ordered stuff worth $20 they marked it as being worth $5. Hopefully excaliberpc will do something similar.

Col_Loki

You should be fine with that. Ive had 2 orders with them and no probs. From what ive heard your ok if the order is of smallish value < €150 and comes with post as apposed to DHL/GLS etc.

I wouldnt recomend excaliber unless it was in the persons favour , and it really is ........... TBH you'd be unlucky to get charged anything extra.

[edit] And if you do please tell me.