"Yes" landslide

Zombrex

Originally posted by The Corinthian
Your citizenship may not matter much to you, but I personally do not think that it is appropriate to accept that it can be so easily achieved for what is essentially a scam, as you have described it.

On the contrary, I hold the notion of citizenship very highly and with great respect. I do not believe that the rights and constitution of a nation’s people should be so haphazardly meddled with or changed at the whim of a temporary government. I would gladly accept the idea of a hand-full of dark skinned “Irish” people walking about with little historical connection to this countries past, rather than remove from the constitution a protection of one of the most fundamental right of this state.

You obviously have a lesser notion of the importance of the constitution of the Republic, but please do not assume I do also.

Originally posted by The Corinthian
Should the child survive, it would not change the identity of nationality of the mother, regardless of her being deceased. .

It must be proven, for a child to be given citizenship, that the parent is also a citizen. It is natural that the parents of the child would present prove of citizenship at or near the birth. If the parent is deceased or not available (say for instance in the case of an absent father) it become increasing hard to show that the parents are citizens of this state. Anyone who has ever had a relative die will know the problems of establishing identify of a person when they are deceased. And this is when adults are involved. Is the 5-minute-old child expected to prove that their parent is a valid Irish citizen?

Without this proof, that child is in effect stateless, denied citizenship to their home country. But I am sure you would simple say “**** happens” in this situation.

Originally posted by The Corinthian
The same could happen if the mother had given birth to the child outside Ireland to an Irish father. And it did prior to the referendum. **** happens.

So you believe all this muddling with the constitution is worth making more sh*t happen? For the sake of what exactly? When do all the problems caused by this referendum start to outweigh the supposed good that you believe will come from it? When 5 Irish children are denied citizenship? When 10 Irish children are denied citizenship? How about 100? A thousand? On a long enough timeline, without this being fixed, it will happen. We are making problems for future generations to attempt to deal with. And for what? The establishment of a romanticised false notion of protecting citizenship at the expence of actual peoples' real right to citizenship?

For someone who supposedly holds the idea of citizenship highly, saying “**** happens” when faced with the denial of the right to citizenship, a basic fundamental right, is quite astonishing.

Originally posted by The Corinthian
Why - outside of your paranoia?

Oh that’s right, I forgot. The need for the constitution of the Republic of Ireland is really just unfounded paranoia. Lets get rid of the constitution and put all basic rights, such as citizenship, into the realm of government legislation. What could possible go wrong? What were they thinking when they wrote a constitution for this country!

Originally posted by The Corinthian
Nationality and citizenship is not a consumer good. You appear to view it as nothing more than a random occurrence, ignoring ethnic and historical factors.

It would appear that you are in a minority in this regard.

Nationality and citizenship are one of the most basic and important of all rights, that should be protected in the highest manner and level. Irish men and women fought and died for centuries for that right. An yet you wish to mess and muddle with this protection, threatening the right for generations to come, for the sake of addressing a minor and temporary issue that hasn’t even been established as an issue (anyone want to quote me figures for the number of foreign nations having babies in Ireland).

The notion of citizenship and our constitution are not something that should be played with by a government more interested in staying in power than serving this country. And it is certainly not something that should be played with by one generation of this country people at the expense of future generations, simply for the sake of deflecting their own problems and struggles onto a tiny group of people who hold no significant impact on this nation.

Zombrex

Originally posted by Jivin Turkey
and at least 1 in 4 of the people I know I would consider intelligent enough to make capable decisions for themselves.

So three quarters of the people you know are not intelligent to make capable decisions for themselves? That is slightly worrying don't you think? Did they all vote YES? Did you tell them too? :rolleyes:

Also, you were miss-informed about the issue of deportation (see your post above), so it is not unreasonable to assume you, and many others, made decisions based on incorrect information and incorrect facts. Which is precisely what the “No” campaigners were worried would happen with such a rushed and miss-represented referendum

Originally posted by Jivin Turkey
It was the right result in the end.

I imagine you believed in the Yes campaign before you voted, and if it had failed you would have still believed in it. Saying it is "right" simply because you won is slightly illogical.

Originally posted by Jivin Turkey
I hate the way the "no" campaigners moan and try to preach to everyone that they are wrong, this is why I would hate to see a left wing government.

Both the Yes and the No campaigners put forward their views on the referendum. Instead of complaining it would make more sense to try and convince some of the people that the YES vote was the best decision, rather than hiding behind the result of the vote (it’s like saying its right cause-its-in-the-bible :rolleyes: )

After all, if it was the "right" decision, it should be fairly easy to convince people of this using real facts and real information.

Moojuice

Do any of you Yes voters actually have anything other than Tabloid logic, exagerations and lies to back up your beliefs? The governments own figures dont support their claim 243 children born to "citizen tourists" (people having kids here then leaving)

Do you have any first hand empirical evidence?

I heard it from one of the leading doctors dealing with the so-called-citizen-tourists that he was voting no as his personal, hands on every day experience led him to believe that the majority were not chancers or spongers, that most suffered extreme hardship and that there was no crisis facing us. From the horses mouth people, from a specialist who works in a maternity hospital in Dublin.

I also heard of horrific things done to people who arrive here seekign asylum and this referendum just puts the nail in their coffin.

Lets not forget that just because you have a child born in this Cuntry doesnt mean that you have a right to stay.

If the government were fair and alturistic and not a shower of arrogant crooks and liers I might trust them to legislate fairly on the matter. But they wont. Der Fuher Mc Dowell will see to that.

Also Fianna Fails numerous defeats in the elections points to huge voter dissatisfaction with them and I cannot se why people would trust them on the citizenship referendum and vote yes. Wake up people.

I am ashamed to be Irish.

Moo

sceptre

Originally posted by Moojuice
Cuntry

Typo, freudian slip or deliberate word-play?

arcadegame2004

Moojuice, I am not surprised you say that you are ashamed to be Irish. I felt during this campaign that many on the "No" side were racist against their own people and preferred foreigners, after all, look at how they seem to support giving asylum-seekers free accommodation etc. and the skipping of the housing-list queue for them. Rights that Irish people don't get.

If you dislike Ireland so much you know where the boat is!!!!

Moojuice

Word play.

This is a Cuntry, run by them and stacked full of them. I ue the phrase a lot in everyday conversation. Some people pick up on it, some dont.
Wicknight got it bang on. I totally agree Wick.

Just because people can come over doesnt mean that they will. All through the 80's and 90's people were goign on about waves of migrants coming to take our jobs blah blah blah. I have yet to see it happen.


Moo

pete

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
Moojuice, I am not surprised you say that you are ashamed to be Irish. I felt during this campaign that many on the "No" side were racist against their own people and preferred foreigners, after all, look at how they seem to support giving asylum-seekers free accommodation etc. and the skipping of the housing-list queue for them. Rights that Irish people don't get.

If you dislike Ireland so much you know where the boat is!!!!

ahem

Moojuice

Arcade, I bet you are one of those, "Im not racist, but..." people.

I am sick of this look after our own attitude. The abuse of the system that you speak of is not happening, its tabloid scare mongering. I am not naive enough to think that it doesnt happen in some cases, but it is the exception and not the norm.

Dont blame the Asylum seekers and immigrants for the governments failure to look after Irish people properly, they closed down the homeless shelters in Dublin, and are letting our education system fall to pieces. The government have an extractive attiude towards politics, theonly want to get out of it what they can for themselves.

What the hell does it mean to be Irish anyway?

I hate Gaa, dont give a flying **** about trad music, dont drink guinness, does this mean I am not Irish? I know Americans who know more Irish History than me. And what of the millions of people around the world who can trace their routes back to Ireland and so are entitled to an Irish passport? Is this loop-hole being closed off?

People have to get over this us-and-them attitude. People are people, I am aware of where I come from but this hardline nationalist attitude among people is scary.

Diversify, mix up the gene pool, its bettter for everyone.

I stay because if all the rational, free-thinking people leave, the Cuntry will really go to the dogs. Its a bit hippocritical to complain about the state of the cuntry and then leave, if you dont like it then stay and do something about it.

Moo

Moo

ferdi

Originally posted by chewy
take a deep breath and ignore samson

he's not racist but feels its ok to call a group of people parasites (i know he did say irish and foreign parasites) but still...

i think people who get pregnant and go to another country to have the birth there just to get the benifits and not contribute are parasites

Victor

Originally posted by ferdi
i think people who get pregnant and go to another country to have the birth there just to get the benifits and not contribute are parasites

And what about those that come here just to have a safe delivery?

Moojuice

having a kid in Ireland doesnt automatically entitle you to benefits. Do you really think that people travel hundreds even thousdands of miles just to get handouts (what is it around 90-120 euro?) Get real.

arcadegame2004

I am sick of this look after our own attitude. The abuse of the system that you speak of is not happening, its tabloid scare mongering. I am not naive enough to think that it doesnt happen in some cases, but it is the exception and not the norm.

How do you know?

Dont blame the Asylum seekers and immigrants for the governments failure to look after Irish people properly, they closed down the homeless shelters in Dublin, and are letting our education system fall to pieces. The government have an extractive attiude towards politics, theonly want to get out of it what they can for themselves.

How can someone be a genuine refugee if instead of claiming asylum in the first EU state of entry, they cross several national-boundaries to get to Ireland? If they were really looking for "safehaven" they reached it in Spain or Italy, after crossing from Africa. The more people you let in, the more competition there is for housing with Irish people and the even longer Irish people have to wait for local-authority housing (for which Irish people, unlike asylum-seekers, must pay rent). It also causes more competition for bospital-beds and thus longer waiting-lists in hospitals. Then there is the cost of housing asylum-seekers. I do not deny flaws in our current Government, but that does not justify ignoring the problems caused by liberal immigration policies that harm Irish nationals' interests.

I hate Gaa, dont give a flying **** about trad music, dont drink guinness, does this mean I am not Irish? I know Americans who know more Irish History than me. And what of the millions of people around the world who can trace their routes back to Ireland and so are entitled to an Irish passport? Is this loop-hole being closed off?

Of course it doesn't mean you're not Irish. I don't like those things either (though the players are cute ). At least Irish-Americans have a link with Ireland through their ancestors, who suffered for Ireland and thereby, in my opinion, inherited the right to pass Irish-citizenship onto their children , though I agree with you that the current system goes a bit over the top by handing citizenship to the grandchildren. That loophole should probably be addressed too. But the existence of one loophole does not justify ignoring others, like that addressed in the Citizenship-referendum.

People have to get over this us-and-them attitude. People are people, I am aware of where I come from but this hardline nationalist attitude among people is scary.

Yes, people are people. But I firmly believe that if you believe in diversity, you have to accept different people having different and separate identities. This is a form of "diversity" which the "No" side seem incapable of tolerating. I want the majority ethnic-group in Ireland to be the Irish, and that does NOT make me a racist. We were not founded by colonists, unlike virtually all the states with the jus-soli principle. We are only bringing our citizenship-laws into line with the rest of Europe, and they are not racists.

If we didn't have a separate national and ethnic identity, and did not regard it as worth preserving, then what was the War of Independence about?

Wanting to preserve a separate national and ethnic-identity does NOT imply hatred of other races. I have foreign friends and I have nothing against foreigners per-se. I am simply opposed to PEOPLE abusing the Irish taxpayer, be they foreign or Irish.

pete

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
If we didn't have a separate national and ethnic identity, and did not regard it as worth preserving, then what was the War of Independence about?

I'll take a wild stab in the dark and say "Independence".

Spectator

If seeing as all those who voted "YES" are Shameful and Racist, does that therefore mean that all the other countries in the world who do not automatically give Citizenship on Birth Shameful and Racist?.

Boston

Originally posted by Victor
And what about those that come here just to have a safe delivery?

Actually yes I believe they are parasites for doing that, Unless they actually pay for the treatment. What right do they have to it? As for the other stuff I think it's abite of a smoke screen but it does happen, hell we did it in america it's an old trick.

sceptre

Originally posted by Spectator
If seeing as all those who voted "YES" are Shameful and Racist, does that therefore mean that all the other countries in the world who do not automatically give Citizenship on Birth Shameful and Racist?.

I haven't noticed anyone in the thread accusing all who voted "YES" as "Shameful and Racist". I didn't even see anyone accusing all who voted in any particular direction as being misguided.

pete

Originally posted by Boston
Actually yes I believe they are parasites for doing that, Unless they actually pay for the treatment. What right do they have to it? As for the other stuff I think it's abite of a smoke screen but it does happen, hell we did it in america it's an old trick.

Something along the lines of a "constitutional" right, i think the man said? http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?postid=1696932#post1696932

ecksor

Thanks sceptre, I thought I was going blind there for a while. It reads like a lame dodge (not that I'm lumping ye all in together mind :rolleyes: ).

bobbyjoe

Arcadegame: Well I am an "outsider" with respect to the US, Canada etc. but I don't mind.

Were you born in the US Canda etc? Whats your point?

Well said: Wicknight & Moojuice

Arcadegame: Have you been watching the news recently? Heard about the Nigerian family with their Irish-born child who were deported and are now back in Ireland seeking to overturn their deportation order due to their Irish-born child?

Yea, they were deported illegaly then had to spend months sheltering in a church from what I read on Sunday paper wish I had a link. That make you happy?

The two oldest tricks in politics
1. Get everyone rilled up about some bull**** issue so we can do what the fcuk we like. See Smoking ban and the referendum
2. Get the people fighting with each other blame anyone except the Government preferebly those who can't fight back i.e Asylum seekers

Now for the payback
"Professor William Binchy, a lecturer and member of Lawyers Against the Citizenship Amendment, said that by pushing the referendum McDowell had set an expectation now in Ireland that it is right and proper to raise your head high and say that immigrants should get out of the country. "
We are calling people parasites now its started!!!!!
Anyone who thinks that is a cnut by the way.

Good article
http://www.thepost.ie/web/Sitemap/1.9did-662451018-pageUrl--2FThe-Newspaper-2FSundays-Paper-2FComment-and-Analysis-2FVincent-Browne.asp

Moojuice

If the other EU states jumped in the fire should we? So what if the other states have different policies? You argue that we are a seperate country and a "national and ethnic identity"that citizenship should not be handed out so easily yet you want us to fall in-line with the rest of the EU (sheep?) a bit of a contradiction? Trying to have a national identity but blindly following the other EU states.


Like Germany is a great example. Their treatment of their turkish population is sickening. People who are 4th or 5th generaton (their great-great-great-great-great grandparents moved there) are still not afforded full citizenship rights purely because their ancestors were not originally German. They are a population of guestworkers (the german term eludes me now) that service the economy without having full rights. Its racist.

"I want the majority ethnic-group in Ireland to be the Irish, and that does NOT make me a racist"

Yes it does. Putting your race first, to the detriment of other races is racism. Really who f Ucking cares if the "irish" are the dominant ethnic-group, I dont, it doest make a difference. This dogged adherence to the idea that we must preserve some sort of theme-park irishness (top oh the morning to ya!) is ridiculous. The greater the mix of people the greater the diversity and it makes for a hell of a more interesting country than one full of thick necked red-heads. Over the years I have seen the asthetic quality of the Irish gene pool improve drastically. I think it is great.

"I want the majority ethnic-group in Ireland to be the Irish, and that does NOT make me a racist"

So long as there are just enough of "them" to serve you your big mac, eh?

I can probably trace my ancestors outside the country, does that mean I am not truely Irish? I dont think any of my ancestors "suffered for Ireland " does that mean I am not Irish?


"I have foreign friends and I have nothing against foreigners per-se. I am simply opposed to PEOPLE abusing the Irish taxpayer, be they foreign or Irish"

Why not deport "Irish" people/nationals if they abuse the system? It would sort out a lot of things in this country. Also how do you know that the majorty of immigrants are abusing the Irish Tax payer?


"I have foreign friends and I have nothing against foreigners per-se", ust like "I cannot be racist, Ive got black friends"

Come on, being a racist doesnt mean that you run around burning crosses, wearing pillow cases. It manifests itself in many ways. A lot of people dont realise it.

therecklessone

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
Trebor, it has NOT been established yet that their deportation was illegal, in spite of the fact that you claim they "were deported illegally". Wait for the outcome of the case please before making that judgement.

Can I suggest you follow your own advice?

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
Have you been watching the news recently? Heard about the Nigerian family with their Irish-born child who were deported and are now back in Ireland seeking to overturn their deportation order due to their Irish-born child? Is this not an example of citizenship-tourism?

Is that the sound of arcadegame2004 jumping to a conclusion I hear?

Jivin Turkey

Originally posted by Wicknight
So three quarters of the people you know are not intelligent to make capable decisions for themselves? That is slightly worrying don't you think? Did they all vote YES? Did you tell them too? :rolleyes:

Dont be so anal, my point was to prove that even if some of the people who voted yes were as you more knowledgeable put it as "misinformed", the rest of the people who made "informed" decisions would still hold a majority over the no vote.

Originally posted by Wicknight
Also, you were miss-informed about the issue of deportation (see your post above), so it is not unreasonable to assume you, and many others, made decisions based on incorrect information and incorrect facts. Which is precisely what the “No” campaigners were worried would happen with such a rushed and miss-represented referendum

I asked the question about the deportation issue. I never said that you couldnt get deported if you had an Irish child. So if you ask questions about anything you are now miss-informed? Plus I never let the issue of immigrants/asylum seekers into my train of thought on the vote. It wasnt about them, it was about citizenship. I dont think that people born here should have an automatic right to Irish citizenship if they have absolutely no other ties to the country, I dont see why anyone would want to be Irish, if I was born in Italy while my mother was on holiday, I would have no desire to be Italian, I am after all Irish. Do you think this is a "mis-informed" opinion?

Originally posted by Wicknight
I imagine you believed in the Yes campaign before you voted, and if it had failed you would have still believed in it. Saying it is "right" simply because you won is slightly illogical.

Well in all fairness I imagine you belived in the no campaign too before you voted, I was hardly going to go up and just tick whatever box I liked the look of when I went up. I thought about it and decided I belived in backing the yes campaign. So you imagined correctly. If it had failed, I would have accepted that the people had spoken. We do thankfully live in a democracy.

Originally posted by Wicknight
Both the Yes and the No campaigners put forward their views on the referendum. Instead of complaining it would make more sense to try and convince some of the people that the YES vote was the best decision, rather than hiding behind the result of the vote (it’s like saying its right cause-its-in-the-bible :rolleyes: )

Im not complaining, I dont think any of the yes voters are. We are happy, it is you that is complaining. Why dont you try to convince some of the people that voted no that perhaps there was further reasons to the monumental failure rather than everybody else just not being as intelligent as you are.

Originally posted by Wicknight
After all, if it was the "right" decision, it should be fairly easy to convince people of this using real facts and real information.

I voted yes because in my opinion I dont think that people born here should have an automatic right to Irish citizenship if they have absolutely no other ties to the country. I dont have to convince anyone else. Im not in the game of forcing my opinions and views upon others, I like democracy, if I want a dictator, Ill move somewhere else.

Lioness

If the other EU states jumped in the fire should we? want us to fall in-line with the rest of the EU (sheep?) Trying to have a national identity but blindly following the other EU states.

eh?? the whole point of the E.Union is a confederation of states, which fosters co-operation and harmony between the states re. certain policies or laws. its a united nation. its only natural that ireland should adopt a stance that is similar to its E.U counterparts. ever heard of the common fisheries policy or the common agricultural policy for example?!

Like Germany is a great example

example of what exactly?

Really who f Ucking cares if the "irish" are the dominant ethnic-group, I dont, it doest make a difference.

rite, if another ethnic group becomes dominant over the Irish, and i mean a massive influx, then we cant really call this place Ireland can we? we wud have to call it for example poland mark II or maybe slovakia/poland mark II or something.
:rolleyes:

The greater the mix of people the greater the diversity

nope. the greater the mix of people, the more our heritage and our culture will be diluted and squashed. Our country will be swamped with a mish-mash of cultures and that will not benefit us. i agree diversity can be beneficial but to a certain degree.

one full of thick necked red-heads

well if that ain't a racist comment!! PRACTISE WHAT YOU PREACH.

sceptre

Originally posted by Lioness
eh?? the whole point of the E.Union is a confederation of states, which fosters co-operation and harmony between the states re. certain policies or laws. its a united nation. its only natural that ireland should adopt a stance that is similar to its E.U counterparts. ever heard of the common fisheries policy or the common agricultural policy for example?!

The whole point of the European Union is to foster and facilitate co-operation (including economic co-operation) and political and social harmony between member states. Certain policies or laws are ancillary to this, certain laws have been harmonised to facilitate this. In fact citizenship law has been very specifically left in the hands of the individual States. Spot the difference.

arcadegame2004

If the other EU states jumped in the fire should we? want us to fall in-line with the rest of the EU (sheep?) Trying to have a national identity but blindly following the other EU states.

We are putting our own national-interests first when we prevent our country being exploited in a manner that costs our taxpayers' money and harms the housing-market prospects of the Irish people.

simu

Originally posted by Lioness


nope. the greater the mix of people, the more our heritage and our culture will be diluted and squashed. Our country will be swamped with a mish-mash of cultures and that will not benefit us. i agree diversity can be beneficial but to a certain degree.

What heritage and culture is this, anyway? Watching Coronation St. and Friends and supporting Man United?

broken arm

Originally posted by Lioness
eh?? the whole point of the E.Union is a confederation of states, which fosters co-operation and harmony between the states re. certain policies or laws. its a united nation. its only natural that ireland should adopt a stance that is similar to its E.U counterparts. ever heard of the common fisheries policy or the common agricultural policy for example?!

Have you any idea of the list of disparities in statutory functions between member states? Don't be so simple about the issue of intergovernmentalism.

Another hollow excuse unless it is leading to greater access controls EU wide...........................................

MadsL

We are putting our own national-interests first when we prevent our country being exploited in a manner that costs our taxpayers' money and harms the housing-market prospects of the Irish people.

Wouldn't you be more at home in the Justin Barrett thread? I wonder why you haven't posted supporting him?

The Corinthian

Originally posted by Wicknight
On the contrary, I hold the notion of citizenship very highly and with great respect. I do not believe that the rights and constitution of a nation’s people should be so haphazardly meddled with or changed at the whim of a temporary government.

No doubt you’d prefer a permanent government. That’s Freudian.

I would gladly accept the idea of a hand-full of dark skinned “Irish” people walking about with little historical connection to this countries past, rather than remove from the constitution a protection of one of the most fundamental right of this state.

When you can even come close to demonstrating (let alone proving) that point I’ll take you seriously.

Without this proof, that child is in effect stateless, denied citizenship to their home country. But I am sure you would simple say “**** happens” in this situation.

Yes I would. And guess what it does. Let’s not change anything in the Constitution shall we for fear than an adverse and rare anomaly may occur. Makings of a good policy - or are you suggesting that your scenario is a common occurrence?

So you believe all this muddling with the constitution is worth making more sh*t happen? For the sake of what exactly? When do all the problems caused by this referendum start to outweigh the supposed good that you believe will come from it? When 5 Irish children are denied citizenship? When 10 Irish children are denied citizenship? How about 100? A thousand? On a long enough timeline, without this being fixed, it will happen. We are making problems for future generations to attempt to deal with. And for what? The establishment of a romanticised false notion of protecting citizenship at the expence of actual peoples' real right to citizenship?

FUD - Fear. Uncertainty. Doubt.

Yet you’ve failed to supply anything other than extreme and improbable cases otherwise.

Watch the skies for UFO’s. Seriously - it’s much on the same level.

Oh that’s right, I forgot. The need for the constitution of the Republic of Ireland is really just unfounded paranoia.

No what you’re saying is an unfounded paranoia - and guess what, it still is.

arcadegame2004

Originally posted by MadsL
Wouldn't you be more at home in the Justin Barrett thread? I wonder why you haven't posted supporting him?

Justin Barrett won 3% of the vote in the East constituency (and I DIDNT vote for him - not even a transfer) yet 79% in the country voted "Yes" in the referendum. Do you think they are racists too?

I'd be interested to know your views on this. The battle is lost on your side, by the way, and you ought to respect our democracy and accept the referendum outcome with good grace, unless you would prefer an alternative system.