"Yes" landslide

arcadegame2004

Originally posted by Sceptre
The whole point of the European Union is to foster and facilitate co-operation (including economic co-operation) and political and social harmony between member states. Certain policies or laws are ancillary to this, certain laws have been harmonised to facilitate this. In fact citizenship law has been very specifically left in the hands of the individual States. Spot the difference.

Hmmmm. This is PARTLY true. Nation states can indeed decide for themselves who shall be a citizen of their own country. However, they do NOT have a veto on persons living outside their state (but living in another EU state) becoming or being an EU citizen. Because having or attaining EU citizenship confers rights in all 25 EU countries, the previous practice by Ireland of granting automatic Irish and therefore EU citizenship on all children of non-nationals born here affected the other 24 EU states by conferring residency rights, and future voting rights in local and EU elections upon those children. It is because this practice affected other countries that the other 24 EU states had every right to be concerned, and the opposition by the UK Government to Mrs.Chen's legal action in the ECJ to gain EU-residency for herself and her husband demonstrates that other EU states were unhappy with the loophole that allowed non-EU nationals to gain rights in all of their state's via giving birth in Ireland. While the other EU states' Governments did not speak out on this issue in the referendum campaign, this more than likely was because of a reluctance to be seen as "interfering" in a sovereign Irish decision. But I wouldn't be surprised if words were exchanged on it behind closed doors. And rightfully so. It is easy to see how terrorists and other elements of international organised-crime could have taken advantage of that system.

The above factor also placed an undue burden on our hospitals, - especially in the future. Now before someone bangs on about a supposed lack of statistical proof about the scale of the pressures citizenship-tourism are placing on our hospitals, might I add again that the precedent set by Chen, irrespective of the existence or absence of restrictions based on wealth, did create the potential for further pressures and that could not be tolerated in the context especially of the great problems already being experienced by our Health-Service.

Originally posted by Simu
What heritage and culture is this, anyway? Watching Coronation St. and Friends and supporting Man United?

Don't denigrate your country's heritage and culture! Our heritage is our separate identity, including our separate ethnic-identity, and the struggles that brought about our independence, Had we not had a separate identity, then we would not have sought independence.

Frank Grimes

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
The battle is lost on your side, by the way, and you ought to respect our democracy and accept the referendum outcome with good grace, unless you would prefer an alternative system.

I don't think he's not respecting our just because he doesn't agree with the outcome. This wouldn't be another one of your subtle little jabs at non Irish people again would it?
He's as much entitled to an opinion on it as your or I, isn't he?

Oh, I saw you're off again about the free houses. Want to show us some evidence on this? Or will you just ignore all requests again?

Rock Climber

Arcadegame already clarified several times including here that by free houses he meant rent free houses.
I can tell you the houses in the estate I'm living in are worth about 280K and four of them have asylum seekers iin them and it's a new very nice estate.
The Rent we pay is €1100 a month for the house.
So for asylum seekers here in this estate alone, the bill for accomadation must be €4,500 a month.
They're lovely people by the way and to be honest ,if I were them, I'd be buying a phone card straight away and ringing my family, telling them to come on over.
They also have cars, dress very well and appear to want for nothing.

How can that be justified?
There are absolutely no unemployed families either owning or renting houses here according to the residents association.

Frank Grimes

If this is what constitutes hard evidence in this country it's no wonder the referedum was passed.

Rock Climber

I live there.
It's the same landlord as we have, he's getting paid by the governnment.
I go to some of the residents association meetings.
It's a fact in that estate that four households are leading very comfortable lives at a cost of €4,500 alone for accomadation.
They are able to run cars and have very fancy prams.

Clearly Frank, from your last post your eyes are closed to this as it's something that doesn't suit what you are saying...
But then nothing new there.

Frank Grimes

Originally posted by Rock Climber
Clearly Frank, from your last post your eyes are closed to this as it's something that doesn't suit what you are saying...
But then nothing new there.

The guys that are being put up in the places like Mosney should really kick up about that. I mean, they get to live in a converted holiday camp and get €20 odd per week whereas your neighbours get cars, prams, houses etc.
Why do they put up with what they've got?
Btw, would you not start with the name calling. Just because my opinion differs from yours doesn't mean you need to resort to calling me names. Thanks.

rs

Originally posted by Moojuice

Why not deport "Irish" people/nationals if they abuse the system? It would sort out a lot of things in this country.

[/B]

We should have a referendum on that. Seriously.

Imagine if we deported all the knackers.

No one would worry about a few asylum seekers then.

Ireland would be paradise!

Moojuice

Originally posted by Lioness



nope. the greater the mix of people, the more our heritage and our culture will be diluted and squashed. Our country will be swamped with a mish-mash of cultures and that will not benefit us. i agree diversity can be beneficial but to a certain degree.
[/B]

National Socialism anyone?

The dilution of our culture?!!! Holy **** that is scary lioness, narrow minded, racist and facist. Well to prevent it happening why dont we restrict people NOT of our heritage and culture from using certain services, give them their own beahes, make them sit at the back of the bus, make them were emblems so we can easily spot them.

Wouldnt want to polute the pure Irish gene pool would we now.

What is it to be Irish? No one has answered it becuase there is no concrete answer, its a very tricky question to answer and trying to identify a few charateristics that we can use to spot "real" irish people is futile and stupid. I guarentee you that there are immigrants who know more about the history of this country and care for it more than I and many others do. Yet tey are not Irish. Irish culture what is it? Name one thing that seperates us from any other nation in Europe? If you want to talk about ancestors and roots then most of us arent Irish as our ancestors came from outside Ireland, and current historical evidence and thinking is that the human race originated in Africa. In a sense we are all African, how far back do you want to go? As far as is convienient to Justify your Irishness?

PS: YEah bloody knackers, kick em all out and give asylum seekers their property

sceptre

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
Hmmmm. This is PARTLY true. Nation states can indeed decide for themselves who shall be a citizen of their own country. However, they do NOT have a veto on persons living outside their state (but living in another EU state) becoming or being an EU citizen. <blah blah still available above>

Cute. I make a simple post that's entirely correct about citizenship law and you take it as licence to ramble on about the right to travel and work in an EU State which is a separate right. It derives substantially from citizenship (obviously) but that's got sweet shag-all to do with what I posted. Don't say that something I say is "partly" true if you're going to babble on about something else after and moan about the Chen case that you haven't read.

Don't denigrate your country's heritage and culture!

Obviously not angled at me as there's a double paragraph space (I use the same posting technique myself:)) but despite the fact that you've never seen me denigrate (or insult or any lesser word) my country's heritage and culture, I'll do so if I damn well please whenever it's necessary and deserved (which obviously instantly knocks out the use of "denigrate" but you can use another word if I do it). I suppose you've got a tortuous reason why one shouldn't?

Rock Climber

Originally posted by Frank Grimes
The guys that are being put up in the places like Mosney should really kick up about that. I mean, they get to live in a converted holiday camp and get €20 odd per week whereas your neighbours get cars, prams, houses etc.
Why do they put up with what they've got?
Btw, would you not start with the name calling. Just because my opinion differs from yours doesn't mean you need to resort to calling me names. Thanks.

Show me the names I've called you?
I'd like to see it please.
Perhaps you should quit crying wolf every time your opinions are shown to be founded on shaky ground.

As for your opinions themselves,I've said before you're entitled to them .
You are as entitled to freely express those here as anyone else, but don't expect to have my or anybody elses replies sugar coated especially for you.
Do expect your opinions to be challenged however and do expect people to point out where you or anybody else seem to disregard what people say to you in reply if it doesn't suit you.

You seem to have no regard whatsoever for the cost of housing asylum seekers, many of whom by virtue of their being deported are clearly in the eyes of the state bogus.

I do recall a czech woman crying on RTÉ news on may1 that she was being asked to leave mosney and find a job as her asylum seeker status was void now that the czech Republic was in the E.U
That tells me Mosney isn't a bad place.
Thats only one case for sure, but my point here is to ask, what level of expenditure on asylum seekers(many of whom are bogus) do we as a nation think is reasonable ?
And already it is clear that the overwhelming majority of the voters of this country agree that rather than encouraging as many as possible to come here before anywhere else, that we should make this place only incentive wise at any rate as attracive as any other E.U country and not more attractive.
We simply cannhot afford that given the lack of cancer care in waterford for instance.

From a personal point of view,the asylum seekers in my estate are without shaddow of a doubt having more money spent on them than, I pay in taxes every year.
That is Wrong very wrong in my view.
It's money that would be far better spent for example providing cancer care at Waterford Regional Hospital where it is sadly lacking.

bobbyjoe

Rock Climber: I do recall a czech woman crying on RT?news on may1 that she was being asked to leave mosney and find a job as her asylum seeker status was void now that the czech Republic was in the E.U. That tells me Mosney isn't a bad place.

Maybe she was crying because she had to leave the place she had been living for whatever amount of months and had no where else to go.
Did it make you feel better seeing her crying?
You mindreading skills are amazing you should be on kids TV.

Would you go over to those Asylum Seekers and ASK them where they get their money?
You should go over to the house and ask them to leave and repay you your precious tax to their faces.

I've more respect for the knackers who shout ni***r on the bus then some of the people on this thread at least they say it to their faces.

Whats the bets on when we see the first non-citizen?
Hope they put a picture of him/her on the front page so all the yes voters can feel proud.

seamus

Originally posted by bobbyjoe
Maybe she was crying because she had to leave the place she had been living for whatever amount of months and had no where else to go.
Did it make you feel better seeing her crying?
You mindreading skills are amazing you should be on kids TV.

Perhaps she was crying because she now had the opportunity to leave Mosney and actually go and get work. Perhaps they were tears of joy. But that's speculation. Who knows why she was crying?. Whatever the reasons, she knew that it was coming. That's irrelevant to this debate (It also has nothing to do with Rock Climber's point).

I've more respect for the knackers who shout ni***r on the bus then some of the people on this thread at least they say it to their faces.

Why does it always have to come to down to calling people rascist? Why can't people criticise or analyze what is done with asylum seekers or refugees without people shouting "rascist scum!" as soon as they see something they believe is wrong or could be done better?

Frank Grimes

Originally posted by Rock Climber
Do expect your opinions to be challenged however and do expect people to point out where you or anybody else seem to disregard what people say to you in reply if it doesn't suit you.

I don't disregard it, I just don't agree with it. Because I don't have the same opinion as you doesn't mean my eyes are closed or whatever way you want to put it.

You seem to have no regard whatsoever for the cost of housing asylum seekers, many of whom by virtue of their being deported are clearly in the eyes of the state bogus.

And again, you and certain other posters can provide no verifiable evidence as to what the costs are.
No offence, but just because you say so doesn't count as evidence. How are we to know how much you or anyone pays on your estate per month?
How do you know these are asylum seekers? Does your landlord share information on where people's rent comes from to anyone that asks?

All I've asked for is real, independently verifiable evidence, others have asked for this too. Nothing has been given other than here-say and speculation. Any statistics that are given have been out of context too.
Sorry if you think I've my eyes closed to all this, I just don't swallow everything that's thrown at me. That's all.

bobbyjoe

But that's speculation. Who knows why she was crying?. Whatever the reasons, she knew that it was coming. That's irrelevant to this debate (It also has nothing to do with Rock Climber's point).

Thought Rock Climbers point was that she was crying when leaving Mosney because she was sad at loosing her free accomodation and 20euro. I pointed out that there could be other reasons she was crying (as did you).

Haven't called anyone racist, but I do dislike that certain posters can claim asylum seekers get free houses, loads of money etc from the comfort of their computer with no backup.
At least the guy shouting on the bus says it to their faces, they may have the excuse of being ignorant and miss informed but anyone partaking in the referendum threads here should know exactly what an asylum seeker gets, if not do a search its been linked to many times.

seamus

Originally posted by bobbyjoe
Thought Rock Climbers point was that she was crying when leaving Mosney because she was sad at loosing her free accomodation and 20euro. I pointed out that there could be other reasons she was crying (as did you).

I read it as something much more innocent, i.e. Mosney isn't a completely dire place to be living. Different aspects I guess

MadsL

you ought to respect our democracy and accept the referendum outcome with good grace, unless you would prefer an alternative system.

I do, and that is why I have largely avoided posting on this issue post-referendum.
You are the one crowing from the rooftops like it was some personal triumph (notice how the poll here took a nosedive from your involvement)

Do I think that YES voters are racist? Certainly some of them would voice the reason they voted as "keeping out the blacks" or "stopping immigrants". The fact remains that this referendum was won by a Govt playing scary monsters and spending 230,000 euro in the process. There is little that will change that fact, what worries me now is that YES voters like yourself now feel that you have carte blanche to blab on about the asylum process without any of those inconvienient FACTS getting in the way. The (alternative?) democratic process I would prefer is rational dialogue on immigration and less of this 'racial-purity' claptrap coupled with more of your 'free-houses' sh1te. That IS more at home in the Justin Barrett thread.

bobbyjoe

I read it as something much more innocent, i.e. Mosney isn't a completely dire place to be living. Different aspects I guess

True differenT aspects.
Maybe Rock Climber can make it clearer.
Still I doubt Mosney is a completely dire place to live. But I do think people would rather be out on their own allowed to work and look after themselves.

Frank Grimes

I'm not sure if anyone at all has posted links as to what asylum seekers/refugees are entitled to so here's some:

http://www.ris.ie/whataremyrights/asylumseeker.asp

http://www.ris.ie/whataremyrights/refugee.asp

I don't see anything about a free car though, I'll keep looking for that.
Maybe someone who's saying this could back up their argument with facts?

Edit: Some more from the same site, http://www.ris.ie/residentprocess/

Following the recent Supreme Court Hearing the Immigration Division of the Department of Justice have considered the implications of the judgement and as of 19 February 2003 are no longer accepting applications for residence on the basis of being the parent of an Irish Child.

ecksor

Do I think that YES voters are racist? Certainly some of them would voice the reason they voted as "keeping out the blacks" or "stopping immigrants".

I certainly came across a small number who gave me this reason for voting yes. I also learned that the word 'nignog' is still in use . I voted no, but I'm prepared to accept the yes majority, i.e that at least more than the 20% of no voters voted yes for good principled reasons to do with the meaning of citizenship. I do think that the amendment was worded in a very odd way though, and I do hope that it doesn't give political ammunition to anyone trying to unsettle the GFA.

pete

Originally posted by Rock Climber
From a personal point of view,the asylum seekers in my estate are without shaddow of a doubt having more money spent on them than, I pay in taxes every year.
That is Wrong very wrong in my view.
It's money that would be far better spent for example providing cancer care at Waterford Regional Hospital where it is sadly lacking.

You really, really need to do a little research on how the asylum / immigration / direct provision / social welfare systems work.

It won't hurt. Honest.

Hobbes

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
They may have that obligation but there will be fewer of them coming thanks to this "Yes" vote.

Have you been watching the news recently? Heard about the Nigerian family with their Irish-born child who were deported and are now back in Ireland seeking to overturn their deportation order due to their Irish-born child? Is this not an example of citizenship-tourism?

You know I was going to give up on this thread as all it is turning into is a "Waa waa we were right all along".

First up, voting does not mean that the majority is right (yes or no).

Second, as was pointed out a long time the number of baby tourists or whatever you call it is tiny compared to the number of people who enter this country.

You also fail to realise that it will effect nothing that everyone was getting so worked up about. Heck all it needs is to say Nigeria (as example) to declare babies born outside Nigeria are not nigerian and they automatically become Irish citizens again (as EU law forbids a child becoming stateless and the referendum abides by this law).


Thats not even going into the people who will be declared Irish by ancestory (so in 20 years or so your going to see more foriegn people coming here as they were Irish citizens). It will slow this down, but it won't stop it. You will have people like my cousin who has never stepped foot in Ireland yet holds an Irish passport.

Going back to the issue, the yes vote was passed on a 4 to 1 majority. Despite the "no" votes supporters arrogance, not all "yes" voters were "misinformed",

I believe the orginal poll was asking people of yes/no vote and finding a lot had no clue what the referendum would effect. Most seemed to think it would stop Asyulm seekers.

having a kid in Ireland doesnt automatically entitle you to benefits.

If you have a child in Ireland, regardless of race, nationality or creed you (the mother) is given free medical treatment up to when the child is born and some time after it until the family are safe to travel.

It does not entitle you to stay here though.

... again, my issue is that the Yes vote will change nothing that everyone has been harping on about. In 10-20 years Ireland (Dublin at least) will look like what London is now. Different races but all Irish.

pete

Figures on births to non-nationals in Dublin hospitals have been provided in a letter sent on the day the country voted on the citizenship referendum.

Labour leader Pat Rabbitte told the Dáil he had received the letter from the Eastern Regional Health Authority this morning, and that it was dated 11 June.

He pointed out that Opposition deputies had been told six weeks ago that the information was not available.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2004/0616/citizenship.html

chewy

p rabbit was on the rte news said the number was 12
12 non-national births a day... initially that sounds high but then youd have to break that down into those who just happened to be in the coutnry at the time and had no intention of staying etc....

wish he'd publish the letter

The Corinthian

Originally posted by chewy
12 non-national births a day... initially that sounds high but then youd have to break that down into those who just happened to be in the coutnry at the time and had no intention of staying etc....

What do you base that breakdown on?

chewy

"I do recall a czech woman crying on RTÉ news on may1 that she was being asked to leave mosney and find a job as her asylum seeker status was void now that the czech Republic was in the E.U
That tells me Mosney isn't a bad place."


yeah i have serious doubts that they got any help in finding a place to live and job... now one hopes this didn't happening but imainge one day having a place to live and the ne next not, they were given a months notice in that afaik


re mosney for the people escaping oppression in their own countries mosney is a bloody great place..., but at the same time in there they are far less free then we are nad now that they are in this country they should have the same freedoms we enjoy i bet you wouldn't like having to stay in mosney one bit...


for the czech woman you can imagine she benefitted if not from being free from oppression, in an econmic way of having a stable roof over her head and food everyday...

but again...

Frank Grimes

Originally posted by The Corinthian
What do you base that breakdown on?

Don't know what he's basing it on, but it's hardly epidemic proportions.
12 a day means 4380 a year. That's 7% of the births last year (linkage)
And then you'd need to know how many of those 12 a day are here legally and so on.

chewy

im just saying there not 12 nigerian women laughing while giving birth saying get me me doel card lads im made it now as mcdowell would have you imagine

pete

Originally posted by chewy
p rabbit was on the rte news said the number was 12
12 non-national births a day... initially that sounds high but then youd have to break that down into those who just happened to be in the coutnry at the time and had no intention of staying etc....

wish he'd publish the letter

if that's accurate, it's 4,380 a year. But how many were them nasty asylum seekers?

How many children were born to women here legally on work permits? (So far the only figure i've seen is from the League of Filipino Nurses in Ireland who said their members had 235 babies last year - all legal). How many to women on holidays?

Oh well.

Hobbes

Also is that factoring in one or both parents?

arcadegame2004

You also fail to realise that it will effect nothing that everyone was getting so worked up about. Heck all it needs is to say Nigeria (as example) to declare babies born outside Nigeria are not nigerian and they automatically become Irish citizens again (as EU law forbids a child becoming stateless and the referendum abides by this law).

No because Nigeria is a ju-sanguine country, and so the children of Nigerian citizens automatically get Nigerian citizenship. In fact nearly all the jus-solis countries are countries founded by colonists. Unlike Ireland. And virtually all asylum-seekers in Ireland come from a jus-sanguine country. So VERY few babies will fall into the "stateless" category that would require them to get Irish citizenship.