"Yes" landslide

bobbyjoe

So VERY few babies will fall into the "stateless" category that would require them to get Irish citizenship.

But a chinese woman having her second baby would.
What's yer one's name again??
O yeah Chen

The Corinthian

Originally posted by Frank Grimes
Don't know what he's basing it on, but it's hardly epidemic proportions.
12 a day means 4380 a year. That's 7% of the births last year (linkage)
And then you'd need to know how many of those 12 a day are here legally and so on.

Prior to the referendum (and indeed until legislation is put into place) those 12 a day would have been automatically entitled to citizenship, regardless of whether their parents are here legally or not.

At 7% of the annual birth rate, that’s a pretty large figure to appear, out of the blue, as brand new citizens, per annum.

Originally posted by chewy
im just saying there not 12 nigerian women laughing while giving birth saying get me me doel card lads im made it now as mcdowell would have you imagine

Is that what he said or is this more FUD?

One of the things I find most amusing about this entire referendum is that many of those who are anti the amendment are accusing supporters of the referendum of using erroneous scare tactics. And to back up their arguments, they appear to use erroneous scare tactics too.

chewy

i was only joking...

ok so those 12 would have gotten citizenship whether legal or not but not all 12 would have been a "burden" on the state and thats what counts

Frank Grimes

Originally posted by The Corinthian
At 7% of the annual birth rate, that’s a pretty large figure to appear, out of the blue, as brand new citizens, per annum.

True, but is this out of nowhere? Surely allowances have to be made that as the population increases through immigration/less emigration that facilities will need to be improved accordingly.
Regardless, the actual figures and breakdowns are needed to come to any sort of a conclusion.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by Frank Grimes
True, but is this out of nowhere? Surely allowances have to be made that as the population increases through immigration/less emigration that facilities will need to be improved accordingly.

7% per annum of new ‘citizens’ is a good bit more than just an ‘allowance’.

Regardless, the actual figures and breakdowns are needed to come to any sort of a conclusion.

Not really, because it obfuscates the principle of citizenship. Regardless of citizenship tourism, the concept that simply being in a geographical location at the time of birth makes you a citizen is rather demeaning to the concept of citizenship.

I’ve known a few (Irish) people over the years that have US citizenship, based upon the fact that their (Irish) parents happened to be in the US at the time. They’ve lived their whole lives (barring their birth) in Ireland. They’ve no interest in becoming ‘American’, even though they have US citizenship. They’re not Americans, they’re Irish. The only reason they use (and frankly abuse) their US citizenship is because they want to have residency rights.

The same should apply for all nationalities, all citizenships. It is not a commodity that may be handed like vouchers in a beer promotion. It should be, and is, possible to win citizenship through being legally resident. Or by marriage. Or by blood (although the idea of handing out citizenships based upon a great-grandparent is fairly preposterous, TBH).

We’re discussing citizenship here, after all, not work permits.

Hobbes

Originally posted by bobbyjoe
But a chinese woman having her second baby would.
What's yer one's name again??
O yeah Chen

Actually Bobbyjoe you are absolutly correct (with provisions).

Han race are allowed two children if the first one is not a son (afair), or if they are in rural areas (I mean a farmer) then the same rules apply.

If they have a second child, that child becomes stateless. They are not entitled to any benifits, education or anything else that a normal Chinese citizen would get.

In this instance if they were born here they would become Irish citizens.

chewy

we are talking work permits....sorta

the reason this referendum was called was becuase of the abuse/loophole in the system.. so it does count hwo is legal and not...

ishmael whale

Originally posted by bobbyjoe
But a chinese woman having her second baby would.
What's yer one's name again??
O yeah Chen

A question, to which I honestly don’t know the answer but would like to. If Mrs Chen’s daughter cannot acquire Chinese citizenship, and if there is an international agreement that stateless persons must be given citizenship in the country they are born, why didn’t she just obtain UK citizenship for her child? As we understand it her lawyer advised her to give birth in Northern Ireland so she could obtain Irish citizenship and pursue a claim for residency in the UK on that basis. Why was the advice not just give birth in Wales or wherever she was living at the time and claim UK citizenship for her child on grounds of statelessness? From what I can gather from the material below regarding the Chen case the mother of a British citizen can claim residency.

I know the material states that her daughter did not meet the requirements for UK citizenship, but presumably this is because she is able to claim Irish citizenship. If she was born in Wales she would not, and therefore be a stateless person and presumably entitled to UK citizenship.

http://curia.eu.int/en/actu/communiques/cp04/aff/cp040039en.pdf
http://www.lex.unict.it/eurolabor/en/documentation/altridoc/c200-02e.htm


The only reason I can think of is that Irish citizenship gave the case a European dimension and this seems to be the basis on which the European Court is claiming jurisdiction. But I’m only speculating, and I can’t square that with the right of the mother of a British citizen to claim residency. There’s obviously another layer here - does anyone actually know what it is?

Hobbes

Originally posted by ishmael whale
If she was born in Wales she would not, and therefore be a stateless person and presumably entitled to UK citizenship.

Maybe the UK has a law that supercedes the EU law. Ireland certainly doesn't have such a law at this time, but because we voted yes such a law can be put in place (as can others) without a referendum being called again.

Heck, a law could be passed to make all people born here Irish again and we would not be allowed call a referendum on it because of what people voted as the change.

arcadegame2004

Maybe the UK has a law that supercedes the EU law.

No. EU citizenship applies to all member states - though Denmark theoretically hjas an opt-out under the Maastricht Treaty - though in practice they have EU citizenship to all intents and purposes ie.e. rights to reside and work in other EU states.

pete

A total of 4,249 babies were born to non-EU nationals in the three main Dublin maternity hospitals last year, new figures have shown.

Among them were 1,500 Nigerians and 470 Romanians, but there were also large numbers of Americans, Canadians, Australians and Filipinos, thought to be mainly children of nurses working in the Irish health service.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2004/0616/citizenship.html

edit: unfortunately it does not give the legal status of the parents - illegal / asylum seeker / refugee / work permit.

(note to stormfront tourists: there is a difference)

ishmael whale

Originally posted by ishmael whale
If Mrs Chen’s daughter cannot acquire Chinese citizenship, and if there is an international agreement that stateless persons must be given citizenship in the country they are born, why didn’t she just obtain UK citizenship for her child?

I know, answering my own questions is a clear sign of insanity. FWIW I think the answer is below. To get citizenship in the UK as a stateless person seems to require residency, which presumably means that this international agreement is not absolute and does not cover all possible situations.

http://www.ind.homeoffice.gov.uk/default.asp?PageId=149

The Corinthian

Originally posted by chewy
we are talking work permits....sorta

the reason this referendum was called was becuase of the abuse/loophole in the system.. so it does count hwo is legal and not...

Not really. Whatever the reason was for us to address this issue, it does not change the fact that what we are discussing is citizenship. Seeing it simply as a means to a work permit is to devalue it.

MadsL

Originally posted by The Corinthian

The same should apply for all nationalities, all citizenships. It is not a commodity that may be handed like vouchers in a beer promotion. It should be, and is, possible to win citizenship through being legally resident. Or by marriage. Or by blood (although the idea of handing out citizenships based upon a great-grandparent is fairly preposterous, TBH).

We’re discussing citizenship here, after all, not work permits.

Glad you agree that it should not be handed out like beer promotions, however if citizenship is not given by a fairly straightforward means (birth is a pretty obvious way) then why 3 years residency? Is there not an argument to give citizenship by birth to any legal Irish resident (rules out tourism, but doesn't impose a made-up restriction)

The Corinthian

Originally posted by MadsL
Glad you agree that it should not be handed out like beer promotions, however if citizenship is not given by a fairly straightforward means (birth is a pretty obvious way) then why 3 years residency? Is there not an argument to give citizenship by birth to any legal Irish resident (rules out tourism, but doesn't impose a made-up restriction)

An interesting point, but is 3 years residancy any more of a 'made up restiction' as anyone born to a resident, TBH? Personally I think that if someone (who is not Irish by blood) has legally made Ireland their home and feels that they want to become a citizen, they they should by all means be given the opportunity to do so - a definition that has more to do with where you live than where you were born.

Frank Grimes

Originally posted by The Corinthian
Not really, because it obfuscates the principle of citizenship. Regardless of citizenship tourism, the concept that simply being in a geographical location at the time of birth makes you a citizen is rather demeaning to the concept of citizenship.

What I meant was reaching a conclusion regarding why these children were born here, i.e. foreign workers having children here or "citizenship tourists"
I would consider being born here enough reason to call someone Irish, but I guess we have different opinions regarding that.

Rock Climber

Originally posted by Frank Grimes

And again, you and certain other posters can provide no verifiable evidence as to what the costs are.
No offence, but just because you say so doesn't count as evidence.

I see so when you don't like the source of the information, you dismiss it because it doesn't suit you..
Again this information is coming from my landlord.
You are effectively saying my information is not trustworthy...well I can tell you it's a fact here on the ground where I live.

Seeing as you already said I called you names when patently I did not It's not surprising you have went on to diss anecdotal evidence just because it doesn't have a web url and an FOI tag beside it.

How do you know these are asylum seekers? Does your landlord share information on where people's rent comes from to anyone that asks?

I'm not in the habit of telling lies thanks...
And yes the landlord is on the residents association and this was discussed there.

All I've asked for is real, independently verifiable evidence, others have asked for this too. Nothing has been given other than here-say and speculation.

Well you see, in the real world people have only to look around them in large towns and they see enough evidence of this.
I don't need a web url to show it.

Originally posted by seamus
I read it as something much more innocent, i.e. Mosney isn't a completely dire place to be living.

Thats exactly what I said and meant,it was very clear

uncivilservant

Originally posted by Rock Climber
Well you see, in the real world people have only to look around them in large towns and they see enough evidence of this.

So all coloured people are scammers?

Frank Grimes

Originally posted by Rock Climber
I see so when you don't like the source of the information, you dismiss it because it doesn't suit you..

When you post on this board you generally back up the information with some form of independent source, or a verifiable one.
Even if these 4 families are getting all these freebies from the state, who's to say that all foreign people are?
I posted links that show what asylum seekers and refugees are entitled to, did you read them?
If they are getting these freebies as you say, are they to blame or is it the state's fault for handing out free stuff for no reason whatsoever?
Do you seriously think the social welfare system will buy people cars?
And you didn't answer my question, does your landlord just hand out information on his tenants to anyone that asks?

BTW: I'm "dissing" your anecdotal evidence because it's baseless speculation unless you can back it up. Nothing to do with other posts, try a bit better next time.

Rock Climber

Originally posted by Frank Grimes
When you post on this board you generally back up the information with some form of independent source, or a verifiable one.
Even if these 4 families are getting all these freebies from the state, who's to say that all foreign people are?
I posted links that show what asylum seekers and refugees are entitled to, did you read them?
If they are getting these freebies as you say, are they to blame or is it the state's fault for handing out free stuff for no reason whatsoever?

Well it's a fact that they are getting the houses anyway.
I never said their cars were handed out for free, I said they were able to run cars...
Again you are mis-representing my post,this is your third time doing so in this thread.

And you didn't answer my question, does your landlord just hand out information on his tenants to anyone that asks?

Au contraire I did, as I told you he is a member of the residents association and that this was discussed there

BTW: I'm "dissing" your anecdotal evidence because it's baseless speculation unless you can back it up. Nothing to do with other posts, try a bit better next time.

Again,this was discussed at a local res association meeting at which the land lord attended and spoke and therefore it is not baseless speculation.
It's not my problem if you don't like what I'm telling you because it doesn't suit you.

Frank Grimes

Originally posted by Rock Climber
Well it's a fact that they are getting the houses anyway.
I never said their cars were handed out for free, I said they were able to run cars...
Again you are mis-representing my post,this is your third time doing so in this thread.

You said :

They also have cars, dress very well and appear to want for nothing.

Implying they get the cars paid for.

Are they asylum seekers? Do you know this for a fact? Do any of them work, regardless of the answer do you know this for a fact?
Are they on the social welfare?
I'm curious as to why the landlord tells everyone else these people's business, does he do the same for all his tenants?

You didn't answer my other questions, did you read those links that explain what refugees and asylum seekers are entitled to?

Rock Climber

I didn't say where they got their cars, but it's a fact that they have them and are able to run them.
This was all discussed at the Res assoc meeting I attended and yes the landlord informed the meeting that they were asylum seekers and that their rent was being paid by the government.
We pay 1100 for our house, multiplied by four thats almost as much tax as I pay in a year.

Clearly what asylum seekers basic entitlements are and what authorities are willing to provide for them in terms of getting a roof over their head can in many cases be two entirely different things.

My central point in all this and the main reason (as I stated a few pages back) why I voted yes, was to make this country have no more incentives than the rest of the E.U for asylum seekers to choose it over any of the others in the E.U to seek their asylum
Other countries have far more resources to sort the bogus from the non bogus than us.

The lack of cancer care facilities at Waterford regional and the equivalance between the sum of my taxes and these asylum seekers rent being a case in point.
I'd rather that €4,400 was spent on cancer care.
Furthermore I'd be more than happy that genuine asylum seekers who had their case proven elsewhere in the E.U come here to live and work if they want to

Frank Grimes

Originally posted by Rock Climber
Clearly what asylum seekers basic entitlements are and what authorities are willing to provide for them in terms of getting a roof over their head can in many cases be two entirely different things.

Well you should really take this up with your local TD then shouldn't you?
If these are asylum seekers (not refugees getting rent allowence like other people who are on the social welfare) then he/she should use this as an example of blatant abuse.

My central point in all this and the main reason (as I stated a few pages back) why I voted yes, was to make this country have no more incentives than the rest of the E.U for asylum seekers to choose it over any of the others in the E.U to seek their asylum

So the free accomodation and other goodies they get isn't an incentive?
How many asylum seekers are pregnant women? What about all the non-pregnant women and the men that apply for asylum? How will the referendum passing stop them?

Again, did you read those links about what asylum seekers and refugees are entitled to?

Furthermore I'd be more than happy that genuine asylum seekers who had their case proven elsewhere in the E.U come here to live and work if they want to

They'd be immigrants then.

Other countries have far more resources to sort the bogus from the non bogus than us.

Do you not want any asylum seekers here at all?

uncivilservant

Originally posted by Rock Climber
This was all discussed at the Res assoc meeting I attended and yes the landlord informed the meeting that they were asylum seekers and that their rent was being paid by the government.

OK

here are the FACTS from http://www.oasis.gov.ie/moving_country/seeking_asylum/direct_provision.html:

Rules
You will be expected to stay at the regional centre while your application for a declaration as a refugee is being processed.

You are not allowed to seek alternative accommodation in the private rented sector during this time.

I'm sorry, but I just don't think it's possible to make it any clearer for you.

See also refugee rights information here: http://www.oasis.gov.ie/moving_country/seeking_asylum/rights_of_convention_programme_refugees_people_given_leave_to_remain.html

Rock Climber

Originally posted by Frank Grimes

So the free accomodation and other goodies they get isn't an incentive?
How many asylum seekers are pregnant women? What about all the non-pregnant women and the men that apply for asylum? How will the referendum passing stop them?

Actually,it is an incentive to both bogus and genuine asylum seekers.
I wouldn't begrudge the goodies to genuine asylum seekers.
As regards the blatant abuse versus the guidelines-how much time do you think I have to crusade( as I doubt my local authority/t.d is going to listen) against that abuse , which if it's not allowed as you say, is clearly going on.

Do you not want any asylum seekers here at all?

Fourth time,you've attempted to misrepresent me here.
I've no problems with genuine asylum seekers.
I do obviously have a problem with expensive four bed semi detached houses being supplied rent free for them.
I know what would happen if I were unemployed and to look for one,I'd either get short shrift or be put on a long waiting list.
C'est la vie I suppose when political correctness gone mad puts asylum seekers in brand new houses rent free.

Hobbes

What I find funny in all this, and the very vocal yes voters here fail to realise is the clause put into the change to the constitution when they voted yes.

Basically it allows a change to the rule without calling a referrendum. So for example a child is born here to non-national parents it is still possible for this child to become Irish if a law is passed to allow it (or a judge rules it afaik, ianal).

Of course it also allows them to change the rule so that say a child born to one Irish parent cannot become a citizen as well.

pete

Originally posted by Rock Climber
I do obviously have a problem with expensive four bed semi detached houses being supplied rent free for them.
I know what would happen if I were unemployed and to look for one,I'd either get short shrift or be put on a long waiting list.
C'est la vie I suppose when political correctness gone mad puts asylum seekers in brand new houses rent free.

Can't you read?

Frank Grimes

Originally posted by Rock Climber
Fourth time,you've attempted to misrepresent me here.

I'm not trying to do that. You're saying that other countries have more resources to sort out real from false asylum claims, and you also said you'd have no problem if the "real" asylum seekers came here and worked/lived.
If their claim was processed elsewhere and then they moved here they would be immigrants would they not?

I wouldn't begrudge the goodies to genuine asylum seekers.

How do you know the ones on your estate aren't genuine then? Did your landlord tell you?

So I'm not accused of misrepresenting what you're saying again, I'll point out the contradiction in your own post (in the context of the above quote)

I do obviously have a problem with expensive four bed semi detached houses being supplied rent free for them.

Hobbes

Originally posted by Rock Climber


I do obviously have a problem with expensive four bed semi detached houses being supplied rent free for them.

You have proof of that? Please post it.

Everything I have seen to date shows this is not the case.

pete

Originally posted by Hobbes
You have proof of that? Please post it.

Everything I have seen to date shows this is not the case.

AS posted above, the facts are all here http://www.oasis.gov.ie/moving_country/seeking_asylum/direct_provision.html

Asylum seekers are just NOT accommodated in 4 bed semis.