Do you believe in fate?

Nala

I have mixed opinions as to whether fate exists or not. Sometimes something seems like it was "meant to be", like a friendship, and then turns out it was wrong.
I'm just wondering if you think fate exists or not.

simu

No. With fate, you're attaching a teleology to the universe (that's to say, you're saying that the universe has some sort of grand, pre-determined purpose) and this doesn't fit into observations of how the universe works.

Sometimes something seems like it was "meant to be", like a friendship, and then turns out it was wrong.

What exactly do you mean by "meant to be"? In my experience, when people say this, they mean that some event has caused them to feel happy or comfortable and that, when they try to imagine what their lives would have been like had the event not ocurred, they imagine that their lives would have been poorer or they are incapable of imagining the event not happening so they jump to the conclusion that it had to happen. So, I think fate is the result of the narrowness of the human imagination and also, the unwillingness of humans to face the idea that the greater universe is indifferent to our emotions.

chewy

what a phrase:)


"the unwillingness of humans to face the idea that the greater universe is indifferent to our emotions"


i bet you could write a song about or something....

karma kabbage

well great phrase it is indeed but . . . . I thought the whole point of fate was that you must take the good with the bad! Some things are meant to be but equally so some things are not meant to be! Which indicates that the universe is indeed unconcerned with our feelings and moreover concerned with it's own course and destiny (us being but parts of that destiny)

I assume it is now a given that I am a believer in fate.

simu

Originally posted by karma kabbage
well great phrase it is indeed but . . . . I thought the whole point of fate was that you must take the good with the bad! Some things are meant to be but equally so some things are not meant to be! Which indicates that the universe is indeed unconcerned with our feelings and moreover concerned with it's own course and destiny (us being but parts of that destiny)

I assume it is now a given that I am a believer in fate.

So, you think that the universe has its own destiny and that we're just byproducts or a fairly minor part of this, if I understand you correctly. What kind of a destiny would a universe have, though? As far as I can see, destiny implies some sort of a purpose or a goal to be achieved and this, in turn, implies some sort of intelligence or program or some regulatory mechanism that sets out this goal and sees that it gets done. What sort of entity or thing could do that and how would it fit into the universe as we know it now? (Admittedly, we don't quite yet know everything about the universe)!

Would this goal be written into the laws that govern the universe or would it come from some outside source? Is it possible even to conceive of a force outside the universe?

When you say that stuff is meant to be do you mean that it is something that the laws of causality of the universe allow to happen i.e. a possible outcome of a given state or is there some other force that would have decided that a certain possible outcome is preferable to all other possible outcomes that can follow a given state of events without contravening the laws of the universe and thus, makes it so? Or are you just saying that people can't make all of thier wishes come true?

In short, what is this fate that you believe in?

karma kabbage

the fate in which I believe . . I'll do my best but let it be noted I'll have to get back to work in 25mins so bare with me. I believe that the universe is not so much a tangible thing . . . so i suppose existance would be a better word? but I beleve there is a set path along which it go . . . . bad examples might be that we were meant to have a renaissance as we were meant to have wars . . . I believe that though not everything is laid out . . ie-Leonardo may not have started to use a sfmuto (damn my spelling) technique (re: mona lisa) during the renaissance, but both the man and the new technique needed to 'stake their claim' in forever.

I'm not thinking of the universe as an intelligent being in itself, but of fate as the power which governs it . . . and at this point I run into a conflict of Board themes as God does come into my believe system, but I'm trying to keep it all logical. So as for fate as a force . . not intelligent but a force as energy is a force. The idea of energy travelling along a food chain would have been laughable not to long ago, as our understanding was even less!!

As for 'meant to be' it's a painfull and vague cliché which I've never liked much. But i use it to describe what i conceive to be destiny. When I say this I do not mean that every single detail is pre-ordained. Things like choosing to have a can of coke on the way to the bus as opposed to a can of 7-up may not be precisely destiny . . . . but I do think that certain things in life are pre-destined and will happen! What they are I'm not sure I admit . . .

As for reaching that star and making wishes come true, well maybe not always, but yes I think i'ts fair to say sometimes you cannot get what you want no matter what you do and I think this is fate.

Tell me more of your view please.

Fysh

Originally posted by karma kabbage
the fate in which I believe . . I'll do my best but let it be noted I'll have to get back to work in 25mins so bare with me. I believe that the universe is not so much a tangible thing . . . so i suppose existance would be a better word? but I beleve there is a set path along which it go . . . . bad examples might be that we were meant to have a renaissance as we were meant to have wars . . . I believe that though not everything is laid out . . ie-Leonardo may not have started to use a sfmuto (damn my spelling) technique (re: mona lisa) during the renaissance, but both the man and the new technique needed to 'stake their claim' in forever.

I'm not thinking of the universe as an intelligent being in itself, but of fate as the power which governs it . . . and at this point I run into a conflict of Board themes as God does come into my believe system, but I'm trying to keep it all logical. So as for fate as a force . . not intelligent but a force as energy is a force. The idea of energy travelling along a food chain would have been laughable not to long ago, as our understanding was even less!!

As for 'meant to be' it's a painfull and vague cliché which I've never liked much. But i use it to describe what i conceive to be destiny. When I say this I do not mean that every single detail is pre-ordained. Things like choosing to have a can of coke on the way to the bus as opposed to a can of 7-up may not be precisely destiny . . . . but I do think that certain things in life are pre-destined and will happen! What they are I'm not sure I admit . . .

As for reaching that star and making wishes come true, well maybe not always, but yes I think i'ts fair to say sometimes you cannot get what you want no matter what you do and I think this is fate.

Tell me more of your view please.

Speaking as a physicist, describing energy as a force is incorrect. But that's because the physics definition of force and the word as you are using it don't quite match up. I still disagree though.

Some things happen, some things do not. Attaching a greater meaning to such events or lack of events requires there to be a Great Manipulator somewhere who is conspiring not only for these events to occur or not, but also for us to evolve consciousness in such a way as to see and correctly interpret these meanings. Which brings us back to a more straightforward God debate.

To give an example:

I do not now, nor will I in the foreseeable future, move in the same circles as Hollywood stars and international supermodels. It is therefore highly unlikely that I shall end up having a torrid affair with (picking a name at random) Eva Herzigova, on the basis that, even if we were to meet, we would have so little in common as to make any form of extended relationship very difficult.

Now, I could say that this is because I am fated to not have such an affair, or I could say that my current circumstances make it extremely unlikely. The main distinction between the two is how much personal influence this grants me over my life - if I choose to believe in fate, I will likely resign myself to not having any chance for this affair and, barring some hollywood-blockbuster-style chain of improbable events, will likely never see it materialise. However, if I do not believe in fate, I can still try and make it happen somehow - perhaps by trying to get a job in my field with strong connections to the modelling world, or something similar.

Essentially, my problem with fate is that it is almost impossible for fate to make sense except in retrospect. Thus, we are observing a series of events and their conclusion, evaluating the conclusion in light of its origins, and then creating some form of ulterior motivation for the series of events which is not in fact required.

It may help to consider the quantum perspective when considering this sort of topic - essentially the quantum view is that all events have a probability of occuring and none are definite. This might either lead to one universe in which the events that occur are governed chiefly by probability, or infinite universes, each with a unique combination of events that have occured. One could argue that the "single universe" scenario is at least not incompatible with fate, but there is no significant evidence for any sort of force manipulating or influencing events as of yet.

karma kabbage

i hereby issue a restraining order, science must stay 40 ft away from religion at all times!! The two shall never get on. Science has never been a fav area of mine as it is so factual, refusing to accept anything which cnnot be proved without question . . things like the earth being in fact round for example. (nb - fate as a force is what i said, not fate is a force. I wasn't using the scientific definition)

However I accept that there is little to back my case up that can be out down in words. But to discuss further . . . taking your example: no it prolly is not your fate to end up with ms.x the superstar as you do indeed have very different lifestyles, however if it were fate for you and your darling ms.x then you would find yourself in the circle you need to meet and get along with this charming lady.

If for example you're a physicist, it's not likely that you are fated for this woman

or further in your discussion . . . . if one were now to decide (assuming they DO believe in fate) that this is the one and only girl for them that the must take evasive action to move into the correct circle and pursue this person . . . then that in turn would be part of their fate. . . . or not.

As for seeing fate in hindsight well, yes of course! Unles you believe in fortune tellers or magic predictions then this is the only means to see one's fate!

simu

Well, what you say about science isn't quite true. You can't prove everything but you can come up with some explanations that seem more probable than others to explain observed phenomena - evolution would be an example of an idea accpeted and used by (most) scientists although there's no mathematical theorem that proves it's true!

As for seeing fate in hindsight well, yes of course! Unles you believe in fortune tellers or magic predictions then this is the only means to see one's fate!

So, fate is a pattern you can see when you look back over your life? This isn't all that different from saying that humans are able to see how they moved from one state to another in their lives and to make stories out of their experiences. It's true but it's not really all that meaningful an observation imo. These stories we create about our lives are cool and they're probably a necessary psychological support for dealing with life but that's it imo - they're just based on the one path of the many possible paths that our lives happened to take. We could have had a world where the Renaissance never took place or a world where ten Renaissances happened but we happened to end up with a world in which only one Renaissance happened (so far anyway!). These other worlds would all be very different to ours, had they come to be insead of this world, because once one thing happens rather than another thing, you get different sets of consequences that, in turn, have conseuquences and so on...

(nb - fate as a force is what i said, not fate is a force. I wasn't using the scientific definition)

Well, this fate, whatever it was, would act on things in the physical universe by definition and so, it's not unreasonable to think that if such a thing did exist, it could be probed by the instruments of science. How would you have it interacting with the physical universe?

Hellm0

If I were to go up to a stranger in the street and slap them across the face, not only would it have a phsycal efect but it would also leave that person wanting revenge. The question would be why would I be motivated to do such a thing, maybe someone did it to me. Cause and effect governs what happens, just as the energy I expend to do something comes from the food I eat and the air I breath.

Therefore, the world is predecided. Of course this doest mean there is no god, it just means hes a very good mathematian.

Naos

Originally posted by karma kabbage

If for example you're a physicist, it's not likely that you are fated for this woman

or any woman ...

Fysh

Originally posted by karma kabbage
i hereby issue a restraining order, science must stay 40 ft away from religion at all times!! The two shall never get on. Science has never been a fav area of mine as it is so factual, refusing to accept anything which cnnot be proved without question . . things like the earth being in fact round for example. (nb - fate as a force is what i said, not fate is a force. I wasn't using the scientific definition)

Well, all I can say to that is that you are entitled to believe whatever you choose, but I and many others like me won't be convinced to change what we think without some convincing reasoning and evidence. As for the science/religion debate, I imagine you can guess where I fall on that, but this isn't really the place for that sort of question. (Although I would add that, your comments about the world being round don't really make sense - satellite imaging can confirm this, as can experiments involving radio transmission whose results are incompatible with flat earth theories.)

If for example you're a physicist, it's not likely that you are fated for this woman

Any particular reason for this comment, or should I just assume you're going on the traditional (and largely incorrect, I might add) stereotype of physicists?

As for seeing fate in hindsight well, yes of course! Unles you believe in fortune tellers or magic predictions then this is the only means to see one's fate!

Errr...I don't follow this. If fate can only be understood in retrospect, then discussing the concept is pointless until one's life is complete, ie you are dead. At which point you're not the liveliest person at the party. Even aside from this problem of incomplete information, your argument for the existence of fate strikes me as little more than anthropic reasoning or a desire to imbue meaning into the world where none is required. What I'm getting at is that it appears to make no difference to the world, unless one chooses to then consult fotune tellers etc (A whole different can of worms again).

SkepticOne

Originally posted by karma kabbage
no it prolly is not your fate to end up with ms.x the superstar as you do indeed have very different lifestyles, however if it were fate for you and your darling ms.x then you would find yourself in the circle you need to meet and get along with this charming lady.

Is fate then being used here as a word meaning some event that is unlikely but nevertheless happened?

e.g "X would not normally happen, but it did. Therefore it was fate."

I would say that the word fate is normally used when an unlikely event occurs where the causes behind the vent are unclear or unknown and the event has some personal significance.

In such circumstances we might then go on to believe that there was some plan or intention behind the event for example the Jules character in the film, Pulp Fiction, believing that God had intervened when the bullets missed him.

karma kabbage

If you are a physicist it is unlikely you were meant for this woman

That was part of my superstar example. I meant it was unlikey as physicists and superstars don't often have cause to mix so the likelhood of that being fated is slim. Though now that you mention the stereotype......

As for fate coming up in relation to unlikely scenarios . . I (who believe in fate) would say that is because this is when our attention is drawn more to the outcome of particular events.

(AH lunch break ending) and the world being round comment (possibly most over-used example ever!) I meant that the world didn't accept it was round until there was the proof you mentioned. Yeah... reading back over it, it wasn't too clear. :dunno:

snoopish

Fate always appears to be very vaguely defined in anyones head, it being something that people feel oddly comforted by with the idea that whatever decisions they make , the consequences would have happened no matter what...and to be frank this is a ridiculous idea.But it is essentially what we believe fate to be. Once I used to be an avid believer in fate, however I have become quite hooked on quantum physics, and see things from a different and more logical perspective!

Fast_Mover

can i say sumtng.....its nothing complicatied like the posts that have gone before me. its stupid really but thought id throw it in anyway.

have ye ever seen the film serendiplicity (sp!sorry!)- if the man and the woman wer meant to be together then he would find the book in which she put her number on the inside cover which she put into sell in a secondhand bookshop and she would find the dollar note which he put his number on which he circulated by buying something in a shop.

as you can guess they both found the things- the man was given the book as a present from his fiance i think, and the woman saw the dollar bill she was on a plane when it was being handed to another passanger as change when she bought sumtng.

anyhow, i do think i believe in fate-everything hapens for a reason and whats meant to be is meant to be.

forgive me for putting that crappy example up when i cuda just mentioned the last line only.

chow!

JimmyL

This is getting interesting...

What is Fate? Events that will happen regardless of what we do? Does that mean all events are pre-determined? Scientifically, that is not the case. Lets say fate is not about everything, just some 'select' events. Given certain conditions, certain events have a high probability of happening. If you leave your phone number in a library book, there is high probability that someone will find one. If something significant happens as a result of that then people would consider that as fate, i.e. fate is an observed phenomenon - scientifically speaking. Fate, luck and other superstitious concepts are a result of how we as individual sees the world (like the glass is half full rather than half empty) and we attach meaning to events in our lives.

I should really stop here but our understanding of the universe is incomplete, so there are possibilities...

Lets talk about karma...
(actually, I don't really know what karma means but it sounded good. I apologise if I am using the term wrong. If someone could enlighten me...)

Lets say there is more to us than biology. Lets say the sum of our being including our consciousness gives rise to a 'life' force - remember gravity, magnetism and nuclear force existed before we 'discovered' them. These 'life' forces can interact and conspire to make things happen (don't really have time to expand on this), like two people meeting (like forces attract). Could this be fate?

(Got to go...)

Fysh

Well, sticking to the example cited for relationships, fate-exponents always seem to think in terms of person X being fated to hook up with person Y.

Let me put this in perspective.

There's about 6 BILLION of us on the planet these days.

What about the BILLIONS of other people that Person X must therefore logically be fated NOT to hook up with? Why does nobody talk about them?

Because it's not interesting. "Fate" or "Destiny" is nothing more than a selective filter, applied after a chain of events whose outcome is usually satisfactory, whose purpose is to convince the person who experienced the events that they were somehow "meant" to happen, that their state of happiness is not arbitrary. Why? Because an arbitrary state of happiness would mean that it could be removed at any time, and heaven forbid that happen.

I find it interesting that not a single person defending the fate/destiny idea has so far suggested anything like a mechanism for it to happen with, which could actually be experimentally tested. "Life fields" are a small step in this direction, but, well, what are they? How do they emerge? Are they co-dependent on conscious thought (as in, what's the point of being fated to have something happen to you if you're not going to be consciously aware of it anyway?)? And, if they are something that can be physically detected, how do they work? More importantly, how can we manipulate them?

Trip

I don't think it's the question of whether you believe in fate but whether fate exists because not to believe in something that does exist is taking away it's existence , so in otherwords yea fate does exist as long as one person believes in it so there isn't a point in not believing in fate .

keu

"Whatever limits us we call fate...fate is immense, so is power." Ralph Waldo Emerson

Trip

Originally posted by keu
"Whatever limits us we call fate...fate is immense, so is power." Ralph Waldo Emerson

But than what limits us ? Nothing Except death so is death fate ? or is ther a way around that too ? Everytime we find something to "limit" us we escape it so after death does fate cease to exist ?

keu

But than what limits us? Nothing Except death so is death fate

I think you answered your own question there. Death is inevitable and would therefore be deemed as fate..(as many people try to avoid it have been unsuccesful since time began)
so therefore, fate exists.
The rest of your question

so after death does fate cease to exist

might be better directed at ralph waldo emerson, who I hear is quite dead, perhaps he has the answers.

..but personally if fate is limitations, then it would suggest that after death there are none. (sounds a bit like how they describe heaven to me)
...and so the answer you seek lays within your own personal beliefs.

Fysh

following up on Trip's comment...does this mean that Pink Elephants, the Tooth fairy and any number of other utterly fictional entities exist? Kids, ignorant people and other subsets of our society believe in them. Belief and proof, or indeed belief and fact are two totally different things...

Originally posted by keu
I think you answered your own question there. Death is inevitable and would therefore be deemed as fate..(as many people try to avoid it have been unsuccesful since time began)
so therefore, fate exists.

Err, no. Death exists, and you're calling it a different name.

Trip

Originally posted by Fysh
does this mean that Pink Elephants, the Tooth fairy and any number of other utterly fictional entities exist? Kids, ignorant people and other subsets of our society believe in them. Belief and proof, or indeed belief and fact are two totally different things...

Not to get off the topic but in a way yes all you mentioned above in thoery should exist because if you belueve in God that makes him "real" so to believe in anything makes that "real" only to the person.

but than it leads into the whole seeing than believing or believing than seeing but than with enough illegal substances you will see pink elephants and yes sometimes the toothfairy...:D

But even if you think on it the names had to come from somewhere so at one stage they must of been in existance just like when they were thinking of a name for a cat they said what's the flying little girl holdin a tooth called ...:D

Fysh

Originally posted by Trip
Not to get off the topic but in a way yes all you mentioned above in thoery should exist because if you belueve in God that makes him "real" so to believe in anything makes that "real" only to the person.

but than it leads into the whole seeing than believing or believing than seeing but than with enough illegal substances you will see pink elephants and yes sometimes the toothfairy...:D

But even if you think on it the names had to come from somewhere so at one stage they must of been in existance just like when they were thinking of a name for a cat they said what's the flying little girl holdin a tooth called ...:D

.....

Go and read about the mind/body problem, and then see if you still think that "oh, if someone believes in god that makes him real" is not only a valid argument, but also factually correct.

Never mind the fact that you're overlooking the human faculty to make things up - to invent and describe things that do not have any basis in the physical world. As a species, we've done it more or less since we've been able to think.

Can't figure out what thunder is? Maybe there's some big bloke in the sky who shouts and makes the noise, and throws lightning bolts around the place. Nobody's seen him, but do you have a better explanation?

If you're saying that these things exist as ideas, then yes they do. But that doesn't mean they have any existence in our universe, or at least not one for which any kind of proof, whether by logical deduction or by experiment, has so far been found.

Trip

Originally posted by Fysh

But that doesn't mean they have any existence in our universe, or at least not one for which any kind of proof, whether by logical deduction or by experiment, has so far been found.

I can agree mostly with you but if you can't prove somethings inexistance than it does exist . Ok now holding with this thought the only reason people have for things not existin is that they haven't seen them like people not believing in God because they can't see him but than (and i feel stupid for saying this) the tooth fairy could exist because the only reason we have for her not existing is the same reason we have for God not existing.

There must of been some foundation for these "fictional" charecters like st.nick for example there was a nickolas who gave presents to poor people...(you know the story) so there must of been foundations for everthing else even the concept of fate. Do you agree ?

keu

go with me...
if you believe that only phsyical things are real, and that the thought does not validate the "existance" of something does that mean love does not exist.
sure, you can go into the details of the "phsyical" proof of love, but it would be as questionable as st. nick or the tooth fairy.
Many people can claim they have experienced "love", but it could well be boiled down to chemical reactions and relabelled "love".
As many people could claim they have experienced "God", but personal experiences don't seem appropriate evidential proof.
It could also be debated that love is not real, that it is an illusion based on how someone thinks or feels. I'm not sure "love" can be measured either.
I could argue that much of those chemical reactions might be better described as "lust". (the urge to copulate?) Not love.
So "love" is nothing more than a thought, or a feeling, or an emotion. Many would same the same about st nick (the spirit of christmas) or God, something untangiable, untouchable, and of which the reality of could be questioned.
Yet most people would say it exists.
Proove it does.

Trip

But wouldn't that mean that we would have no feelings ? Does that mean that feelings doesn't exist ?

keu

on topic of if anything exists....

don't know really, still questioning if "love" is real.
Have you ever had your heart broken?, I have and it bloody hurt.
but it wasn't actually physically broken. it just felt that way.

so I cant prove it outside of my experience, I can just tell you that in my experience love hurts, but can make you feel incredibly good at the same time.
Then I realised I only thought I was it was love, so it wasn't very real at all....very much all boiled down to an illusion.
I might be able to validate the experience of love by finding others who have experienced it too,
But these claims are not much outside the realm of thoughts and feelings. (and those chemical reactions which we give nice names to)
like I said not tangiable real thing. unlike a motorbike.

Fysh

Given we're talking about love, and other emotions...I presume you've heard of Valium, ecstasy, and other mood-altering drugs? Their existence (which can be proved by experiment) alone is enough to suggest that emotions are at least significantly affected by chemical levels in the brain - seratonin and so forth. I'm no neurologist, but between the effects of pheromones on human behaviour and the effect of chemical levels within the brain, I've yet to see any convincing need for external "emotions" which are independent of any rational thought or physical process. (And before anyone mentions "love at first sight", the proper word for it is "infatuation")

As for "if you can't prove it *doesn't* exist, then it does exist"...that's just stupid. By that argument there's an angry demented dwarf called Klaus (spot the reference, anyone?) standing just behind you, perpetually about to cut your head off. But you can't see him because he always stands *just* behind you and angles himself out of the way of any mirrors you try and use. And is invisible to tv cameras. And nobody else tells you about him because they don't like you and really want him to cut your head off. Do you start to see how stupidly convoluted this sort of thing gets?

I mean, come on. This is supposed to be the philosophy board, offer some real justification for your statements. In particular, prove to me why I should ignore Occam's razor in this case and believe in some being that has no physical evidence of existing. Otherwise you're just talking about a load of tree-hugging crap. In which case, take it elsewhere. This thread stopped being interesting several posts back, but now it's gotten just plain rubbish, really.

As for the origins of St. Nick...yes, there are origins to the story. However, if you're honestly claiming that this proves the existence of a fat dude in a red suit who flies around and gives every kid in the world presents in one night, then I have no recourse but to dub you by the name "Moron" and cease to waste my time trying to offer scientific criticisms of the crap you're spouting.

keu

(And before anyone mentions "love at first sight", the proper word for it is "infatuation")

I'll go with that.
love aint real puppies

(waves to klaus)