Do you believe in fate?

keu

Err, no. Death exists, and you're calling it a different name

actually i was looking at in a different context. (in relation to the reference of limitations)

Fysh

Originally posted by keu
actually i was looking at in a different context. (in relation to the reference of limitations)

I suppose what I should have said is that, if death is the only thing we're incorporating into our definition of fate, then it's not really necessary to have "fate" as a separate word.

JimmyL

Back to the original post (by the way, just noticed that the original poster hasn't posted anything else here).

The first question was, "Do you believe in fate?". Then he asked if fate existed.

The two questions are not the same. Personally, I do not believe in things that (can be proven to ) exist. What would be the point?

On the question of fate existence, it really depends on your definition of fate. Is fate the concept of events happening for a reason or it is an unseen force that make things happen? Very true for the former but very questionable for latter.

The example of invisible head cutting dwarf: I can certainly accept that someone would believe that there is such a dwarf but the existence of the dwarf would depend on the observer - existentialism?

Dancing duck

This debate with a few less words and a few more, could easily be exchanged with one on 'do you believe in god' (not saying the same people would necessarily say the same thing). How can you say the people who have a belief in something you don't, but can't be certain does not exist, are wrong to have it?

But it's the choice of do you want to life, with faith put in something other than the proof? You can be of great intelligence and accept that accepting the concrete evidence means you've used the scientific world's finds to control your life and mind. But you can put your mind to equally good use and believe that not everything is tangible, and just like the unknown explanatory process of love, there are other forces at work like those that stop the scientists discovering what happens to us when we're finished with life.

I believe in fate, and I know well I could be wrong to and like with a god above, there's a chance it doesn't really exist. But it can make your life more bearable, and more spiritual, and more enchanted, to think that when we make mistakes we make them for a reason, and that when coincidences occur, they were already arranged to. It does no-one any harm to romanticize a short life. Like with God, if you come to the end of the road and see it was all unfounded, then what have you lost? If believing in God had made you more ethical and thankful for what you had, then did it matter that like with being good for Santa, it need not have been done to get the reward?

Fysh

Yes, but in that case the existence of Klaus is solely within the delusional reality of the person who thinks they have Klaus behind him (and yes, believing that everyone in the world is keeping a secret from you because they hate you is considered a pretty strong indication of some sort of paranoid delusion).

It still doesn't confer a physical existence upon him, and were Klaus to "attack" his intended victim, anyone else examining the body would find no evidence of the presence of Klaus because he wasn't physically there. Depending on the delusion, the victim might self-inflict serious wounds, but there would be evidence that can demonstrate this was the case (types of bruising, angle and serration of cuts/incisions.

I presume that, by "events happening for a reason" you're referring to causality (as in, the continuity of physical laws as we understand them within our universe). If not, please elaborate what you mean. I agree with you regarding belief vs existence, incidentally. If something can be verified by some sort of proof, either logical or experimental, then belief in that thing is somewhat pointless - it will exist whtehr or not you believe in it.

keu

I don't want to take the thread too far off topic, but again in relation to the original question of the existance of something of which there is no concrete evidence.

When placed in context, what is considered real in terms of philosophy-that which exists objectively in the world regardless of subjectivity or conventions of thought or language, is largley what is observable phenomena. In the case of klaus the dwarf, to us he is not observable, and therefore is not real.
Yet subjectively he is very real to the experiencer.
I thought about how time is not exactly an observable phenomena, we make those observations based on the effects of time.
We don't see time, so to speak, we see the effects of it and therefore it exists and is "real".

In the same instance, if a Klaus situation as described here did occur (and this is not an uncommon scenario) although we could not observe Klaus and determine if he is real, we could observe the effects of klaus, which in ways described (inflicting serious wounds) are quite real and observable.

It still doesn't confer a physical existence upon him, and were Klaus to "attack" his intended victim, anyone else examining the body would find no evidence of the presence of Klaus because he wasn't physically there. Depending on the delusion, the victim might self-inflict serious wounds, but there would be evidence that can demonstrate this was the case (types of bruising, angle and serration of cuts/incisions.

The existance of Klaus is subjective, yet the effects of his existance are objective (and observable)
(edit:have to add, I mean to understand that in this situation if the experiencer inflicts self harm under the influence of "klaus")

Thankfully klaus is just a dwarf and dragons eat dwarfs for breakfast.

....but from a slightly different angle and yet with the same interpretation, many people do believe in "god" and the effects are just as observable (and perhaps questionable in many cases) I supose it would depend on the subjective experience of what "God" is to those who believe in it/him as to the physical effects it produces.

As with love, all these things are subjective, yet the effects are common observable phenomena and in some way this gives some sort of tangibilty, proof or credence that these things do exist within particular parametres of what is referred to as a physical existance.

So, perhaps what I am saying is, our beliefs can shape our reality, (we make them real by believing in them and the proof is in the pudding to so speak) if you believe in fate, than that is how you will percieve your reality. It's indifferent really and if it gives you a sense of purpose or helps you make some sense out of something much greater than ourselves (universe) than so be it.

impr0v

Surely to believe in fate is to state that all the choices you make are not actually choice, the path already having being laid out before you. What's the point in going on?

On the (simplified) journey through life I come to a 'T' junction. The free will school of thought says i have two choices: left or right (ignore going back/standing still for clarity).

The fate school of thought says I will instinctively (or be compelled to, by a higher power, or for a reason) choose the correct road to lead me to my fate.

This means I have no choice, as I cannot possibly choose the alternative road, since I am pre-destined to arrive at the end of the fated one, unless of course the alternative road has the same destination as the fated one.

The only way for fate to be true is for it to be another name for death, which fych already said, as it is the only destination that all roads lead to.

keu

This means I have no choice, as I cannot possibly choose the alternative road, since I am pre-destined to arrive at the end of the fated one, unless of course the alternative road has the same destination as the fated one.

hate to be the one to tell you, but no, you don't have much choice, as if you had read the entire thread, you might have discovered that fate was equated to limitations with death being the greatest of these, you WILL die.
and you don't have any choice in the matter.
doesn't matter when where or how this particular "fate" is inevitability but it doesn't suggest you have no control over your life. (free will)

The fate school of thought says I will instinctively (or be compelled to, by a higher power, or for a reason) choose the correct road to lead me to my fate.

what school would this be?
edit: have you ever considered there may not be such a thing as in incorrect road and this would also be considered fate to the extent that this is a limitation..(can do no wrong?) this would suggest that ultimately every "choice" you make is the right one, no matter how "bad" it may initially seem and promotes the idea that there is "purpose" in everything.

What's the point in going on?

well..if love isn't real and we have no "real" purpose and if nothing really matters at the end of the day because we are all microscopic bi products of a benign universe, what point is there going on anyway?

call fate what you will, thats your own reality.

lisa.c

OH MY GOD!!!!!!!!!! have you all missed the pint of this thread??? while you all have gone over board and have given lenghty and quite boring replys with words that most people wouln'nt understand, this thread has turned in to a (im better than you at longer replies and can add more bigger words there fore im more impressive) when quite simply the thread starter asked one simlpe question.......Do you belive in fate?.... a simple yes or no would of done.....

lisa.c

just to add to that in my own simple terms yes i do belive in fate. my idea of fate is ... it is what you make it make just like luck love life and happiness. if i choose to be scum them naturally my fate lies in the courts and jails of ireland. if i choose to be honest and decent (which i am) then my fate will lie in a happy house and family (which i have). your fate is what you make it and is determined by the choices you make. now you all probably disagree with me and thats fine but they are my beliefs and what i belive in.

keu

OH MY GOD!!!!!!!!!! have you all missed the pint of this thread??? while you all have gone over board and have given lenghty and quite boring replys with words that most people wouln'nt understand, this thread has turned in to a (im better than you at longer replies and can add more bigger words there fore im more impressive) when quite simply the thread starter asked one simlpe question.......Do you belive in fate?.... a simple yes or no would of done.....

this is funny.(because its true)
Unfortunately the object of this forum it seems is to reason by valid method on any given topic. (The topic wasn't exactly "do you believe in fate"..it was "do you believe fate exists"...enter discussion on proving (validly) the existance of all related issues.)

On being introduced to this forum I discovered very quickly that while you may have an opinion, it is not accepted unless it is a "valid" one.
So its not exactly a forum for expressing opinions in so much as discussing pedantically with grand gestures of secular information. (lots of meaningless big words)

..and while the original post provoked many responses all of them failed to note the actual subject matter. (friendship issues)....which I suppose wouldn't be the kind of subject matter that is normally adressed here.

with regard to your beliefs, as we grow up, we tend to realise that all this stuff is a lot of bullsh!t and what matters most are the things which matter to you (family, sense of worth, happiness, well being), and I doubt anyone has the right to take any of those things away from you, just because they don't agree with or believe in them personally.

I would agree that the philosophy of simplicity is lost on this forum (a disregarded value of wisdom)

but thanks for giving some perspective.

simu

On being introduced to this forum I discovered very quickly that while you may have an opinion, it is not accepted unless it is a "valid" one.

Well, people might disagree with your opinions but they're entitled to do so. I haven't banned people for expressing their ideas and neither will I unless they're wildly off-topic or insulting to other posters (to disagree with someone is not to insult them).

Dancing duck

No, not everyone did what you say they did.

keu

Well, people might disagree with your opinions but they're entitled to do so. I haven't banned people for expressing their ideas and neither will I unless they're wildly off-topic or insulting to other posters (to disagree with someone is not to insult them)

This is totally irrelevant. I never suggested people are not entitled to disagree with others opinions. And for the sake of clarification, any thread which express an opinion on anything intangible (like god or beliefs) have been insulted as bs ideaologies and never given the oppertunity to flow or grow or develop. You cannot prove god by empirical means, therfore it is theory, and requires an open mind, not empirical evidence and while critical anaylsis is the norm, the forum is biased by secular knowledge, which is not wisdom (of which philosophy is the love of) and is generally based on inexperienced values and qualities. (schoolbook material versus life experience)
for example, you cannot discus the values of love with people who have never experienced it (but have read about it in a book somewhere).

the insults for that matter have been widespread.

impr0v

Originally posted by keu
hate to be the one to tell you, but no, you don't have much choice, as if you had read the entire thread, you might have discovered that fate was equated to limitations with death being the greatest of these, you WILL die.
and you don't have any choice in the matter.

Well how's about that! You learn something new every day.

doesn't matter when where or how this particular "fate" is inevitability but it doesn't suggest you have no control over your life. (free will)

You're just repeating stuff that's already been stated. Obviously, to accept death as an inevitability is not to believe in fate or to deny that one has control over one's life in between birth and death. However to believe in fate as being something other than the inevitability of death, i.e. as being some sort of pre-determined path or purpose, is to believe that one has no real control over one's life at any point between those two events, i.e. that there is no free will.

have you ever considered there may not be such a thing as in incorrect road and this would also be considered fate to the extent that this is a limitation..(can do no wrong?) this would suggest that ultimately every "choice" you make is the right one, no matter how "bad" it may initially seem and promotes the idea that there is "purpose" in everything.

Either you're saying that every road leads to the same destination (already said) or that fate is a fluid thing, it constantly changes depending on what choice you make. But then surely it's not fate, it's as the other poster discussed; looking back at how you've got to where you are and claiming that some kind of purpose got you there, using the concept of fate to fortify your current good position against your fears about it's transience or fragility. The question here is 'do you believe in fate?' i'm saying 'No, and it's because I believe we get to make each individual choice ourselves, and by doing so, make things happen, rather than things happening for a reason.' You aren't really saying anything relevant to change or add to that.

well..if love isn't real and we have no "real" purpose and if nothing really matters at the end of the day because we are all microscopic bi products of a benign universe, what point is there going on anyway?

Love? To paraphrase Tina Turner, 'what's love got to do with it?'. I'm saying that if one believes in fate then one might as well just stop where one is at the moment and not go on, because if there is no choice, nothing variable, what's the point in experiencing it? The ship dosen't need a pilot when it can get to the destination of it's own accord.

call fate what you will, thats your own reality.

From the penguin book of sweeping ambiguous closing statements?

keu

However to believe in fate as being something other than the inevitability of death

actually it would be accepting that death is a part of a predetermined path.
but as I stated, fate is what you perceive it to be and as this is you definition or perception, this is your reality.

what you are stating is your belief...which cannot be argued, so believe what you will.

Either you're saying that every road leads to the same destination (already said) or that fate is a fluid thing

you are born, you die, every road leads to the same destination.

claiming that some kind of purpose got you there

I didn't "claim" anything, but it would seem if you are born at all the ultimate purpose is only to die.

'do you believe in fate?' i'm saying 'No,

thats great..I don't give a crapula what you "believe", thats your right.

and it's because I believe we get to make each individual choice ourselves, and by doing so, make things happen, rather than things happening for a reason.' You aren't really saying anything relevant to change or add to that.

Of course we make things happen. the point is being missed, I'm thinking I might have a more fulfiling discussion if I headed up to the zoo and chatted with the marsupials.
Consider that your reaction or response is "fate".

[edit] Imust stress, I have neither claimed that I believe or do not believe in fate up to this point. I've been more concerned with trying to put a finger on what fate is.
it does seem that all our paths are predetermined (birth-death) I never suggested anything about a "mysterious force which makes our choices for us"
but you did not choose to be born....and you probably do not choose to die, and no matter how much control you have over your life you cannot get away from those very basic facts.

You claim you make your own choices independantly, yet if tonight you went out and met a guy/girl (complete stranger) and discovered the man/woman you were to marry, you should recognise that you didn't "choose" for him to be in the place at that particular time in order to meet him..did you?
Sure you might make the decision to marry him/her, but you would never have met in the first place, if the other party hadn't chosen to be where they were when you met them.
So ultimately, while you have control over your life (free will..you chose to go out too) you had no control over the situation occuring.
perhaps this is what is referred to as "fate"

impr0v

Originally posted by keu
actually it would be accepting that death is a part of a predetermined path.
but as I stated, fate is what you perceive it to be and as this is you definition or perception, this is your reality.

*Sigh*.
Death is part of a predetermined path, we have already established that, please stop repeating yourself. I was taking that as a given and looking at what fate is between the two predetermined points of birth and death. Please read it before repeating yourself again. All perception is by it's nature subjective, again, you aren't saying anything with that sweeping statement.

you are born, you die, every road leads to the same destination.

Are you seeking to learn this maxim via repetetion?
I believe what's under discussion here is the path between those two events.

I didn't "claim" anything, but it would seem if you are born at all the ultimate purpose is only to die.

I was obviously referring to an unspecified individual in a theoretical situation, rather than you in particular. Admittedly I should have used 'one' instead of 'you'.

thats great..I don't give a crapula what you "believe", thats your right.

Cool.

Of course we make things happen. the point is being missed, I'm thinking I might have a more fulfiling discussion if I headed up to the zoo and chatted with the marsupials.

This i don't doubt for a second, given their inability to respond, indifference to repetition and immunity to muddy logic.

Consider that your reaction or response is "fate".

No thanks, I'll consider my response as being the one I chose to make.

I must stress, I have neither claimed that I believe or do not believe in fate up to this point. I've been more concerned with trying to put a finger on what fate is.

So why exactly are you posting if you are not prepared to answer the question posed in the topic, and don't give a crapola what i believe? Trying to put your finger on what fate is? Your finger has repeatedly landed on 'death is certain' and a vague attempt to relate the issue to love and not much else. Perhaps if you clarified what you believe it might add some order to your outbursts.

it does seem that all our paths are predetermined (birth-death) I never suggested anything about a "mysterious force which makes our choices for us"

No you didn't, but that's what the topic is about;

fate
n.

1. The supposed force, principle, or power that predetermines events.
2. The inevitable events predestined by this force.

but you did not choose to be born....and you probably do not choose to die, and no matter how much control you have over your life you cannot get away from those very basic facts.

Repeat first principals ad infinitum.

You claim you make your own choices independantly, yet if tonight you went out and met a guy/girl (complete stranger) and discovered the man/woman you were to marry, you should recognise that you didn't "choose" for him to be in the place at that particular time in order to meet him..did you?
Sure you might make the decision to marry him/her, but you would never have met in the first place, if the other party hadn't chosen to be where they were when you met them.
So ultimately, while you have control over your life (free will..you chose to go out too) you had no control over the situation occuring.
perhaps this is what is referred to as "fate"

Again, you introduce human relationships/love unbidden....Allow me to venture that that's a stupid argument and one which would only make sense to a naiive romantic with strong faith in such airy concepts as love at first sight. Sure, I won't choose for anybody the pub/club they want to go to tonight, but if i did actually meet somebody tonight and eventually marry them, then that would be as a result of an incalculable amount of choices made by me (and that person) between now and the placing of the ring on finger. Even before I met them I'd have to make a string of choices which would put me in the position to meet them, from this second forward. Which mate to ring, which town to go out in, which pub to go into, what time to go into that pub, where to sit in that pub, who to look at, and that's simplifing the process by a large factor. Each one of those choices would be in turn be influenced by numerous factors including the choices of others, making my appearance in the space beside that person whom the thunderbolt of instant marriage is supposed to strike the combination of so many variables that it would be almost pure chance. Try and distinguish between chance and fate in your mind and then try again to set up some sort of experimental situation in which to demonstrate the hand of fate at work.

keu

Are you seeking to learn this maxim via repetetion?

what maxim do you feel I am seeking to learn dear?

I believe what's under discussion here is the path between those two events.

you mean this is what you believe the discussion is about. YOu have already stated your case, why are you repeating yourself? you don't believe in fate. now, are you setting out to convert everybody else?
you don't believe in "fate" because you have no idea of what the word means.
I suggest you go and find a better definition of it.
Limitations suits me fine and I can interpret how that applies to us.
If you don't ilke the word and what it represent (limitations) write a song about it or something, your boring the **** out of me with your useless idiotic rhetoric.

So why exactly are you posting if you are not prepared to answer the question posed in the topic

I already did.
does fate exists?
subjectively or objectively? subjectively yes, objectivley the effects can be observed in the context of limitations if by definition that is what you consider fate to be.

Allow me to venture that that's a stupid argument and one which would only make sense to a naiive romantic with strong faith in such airy concepts as love at first sight.

your too young and stupid to have any understanding of what love I spose. I never mentioned love at first sight by the way, these are all your own projections.

Even before I met them I'd have to make a string of choices which would put me in the position to meet them, from this second forward. Which mate to ring, which town to go out in, which pub to go into, what time to go into that pub, where to sit in that pub, who to look at, and that's simplifing the process by a large factor. Each one of those choices would be in turn be influenced by numerous factors including the choices of others, making my appearance in the space beside that person whom the thunderbolt of instant marriage is supposed to strike the combination of so many variables that it would be almost pure chance.

i dont know if your blind and reading by brail, you obviously dont get it. I have already stated this does not seclude you from making any decisions, you have to make the choice to get there, but you do not control the lives of others who will influence your own.

Try and distinguish between chance and fate in your mind and then try again to set up some sort of experimental situation in which to demonstrate the hand of fate at work.

ok, last time here, i'm tired of arguing with idiots.
fate is a play on words, what it means to you is subjective. Does it exist was the original question.
you have stated it doesn't. you call it chance, or life, or choice or whatever.

i cannot make excuses for your narrowmindedness in not being able to comprehend useage of another word for all of those things.

....your mommy is calling you sweetheart, wants to read you a bedtime story.
(I'm always amazed at how much can be achieved by insulting others)
*goes off to watch the hands of fate do their stuff*

simu

Originally posted by keu

(I'm always amazed at how much can be achieved by insulting others)

Including a week-long ban for you, keu.

I've stated more than once that I won't accept insults on this forum.

impr0v

Originally posted by keu
what maxim do you feel I am seeking to learn dear?

When making reference to another's post it's common practise to quote a part of their text and then insert one's comment on this portion directly underneath or after it. You've demonstrated repeatedly that you understand and indeed use this protocol, so I'll treat the above as a rhetorical question. And 'dear?' I'm afraid your condescension is wasted on me .

you mean this is what you believe the discussion is about. YOu have already stated your case, why are you repeating yourself? you don't believe in fate. now, are you setting out to convert everybody else?

Ok, so if we aren't discussing how fate, if it exists, applies to a person's life, between point A and B, A being birth and B being death, then we're discussing before A and after B, would that be a fair assumption? But you've repeatedly stated, and I've repeatedly said that I agree with you, that our paths cannot be manipulated pre-birth or after death, we don't choose to be born and most of us don't choose to die. What else to do consider the discussion to apply to?

I'm not repeating myself, I'm attempting to defend my point of view from your repeated attempts to ridicule it.

I wouldn't be so presumptious to think that I could convert everybody to my point of view, nor would I want to, I'm attempting to have a reasoned discussion about it.

you don't believe in "fate" because you have no idea of what the word means.
I suggest you go and find a better definition of it.
Limitations suits me fine and I can interpret how that applies to us.
If you don't ilke the word and what it represent (limitations) write a song about it or something, your boring the **** out of me with your useless idiotic rhetoric.

Do you always sound so agitated when bored? Please forgive my ignorance, and since you disagree with the dictionary definition of the word 'fate' perhaps you would be kind enough to clarify what you think the word means? Your loose concept of limitations? You have yet to provide a lucid definition of exactly what it is you mean by it, apart from applying a quote loosely associating it with power.

Obviously a person is bound by physical limitations, i.e. I can't jump to a height of 30 feet without assistance because of gravity, I can't hear a gunshot before the bullet gets to me because it's supersonic. Are you then referring to societal limitations? Jim's dad drives a dust cart so Jim can't go to Harvard? Biological limitations? Jim has been born with an IQ of 56 so Jim can't go to Harvard? Geographical limitation? Jim was born in a barrio outside Caracas so Jim can't go to Harvard? Set them out and they can be discussed, rather than spouting expletetives.

does fate exists?
subjectively or objectively? subjectively yes, objectivley the effects can be observed in the context of limitations if by definition that is what you consider fate to be.

You do believe in it then? Or fate can be observed as the bits in club orange if you believe fate means the bits in club orange?

your too young and stupid to have any understanding of what love I spose. I never mentioned love at first sight by the way, these are all your own projections.

Perhaps I am, but I'm old enough not to presume to know you, and to be able to express myself without resorting to insults. In my opinion someone who would describe the chain of events you described in your previous post, and someone who talks of 'love' in such a reverential way would be someone who believes in concepts such as love at first sight.

i dont know if your blind and reading by brail, you obviously dont get it. I have already stated this does not seclude you from making any decisions, you have to make the choice to get there, but you do not control the lives of others who will influence your own.

If I was blind and reading by braille, presuming someone had invented a browser capable of rendering text as indentations on the surface of my screen, how would that prevent me from getting 'it'? Instead I contend that it's your unwillingness, or perhaps inability, to articulate your side of the discussion, content as you are to depend on repetetion and ambiguity to get 'it' across.

Obviously I don't control the lives of others, their own choices do, and for them to end up in that location next to me when the wedding bells start clanging is the result of an equally long chain of choices and interactions with other people and their choices. You seem to be claiming fate puts the two of us there under cupids arrow, while also saying we can choose to be there or not, cake and mouthfuls of it.

ok, last time here, i'm tired of arguing with idiots.
fate is a play on words, what it means to you is subjective. Does it exist was the original question.
you have stated it doesn't. you call it chance, or life, or choice or whatever.
i cannot make excuses for your narrowmindedness in not being able to comprehend useage of another word for all of those things.

No, I call chance chance, I call life life and similarly I call choice what it is, choice. If I decide fate means a bottle of club orange, then yes, fate exists because I can go down and buy it in the shop. You can't change the meaning of the word to suit your own purposes, doing so renders language useless and would explain your difficulty in communicating.

....your mommy is calling you sweetheart, wants to read you a bedtime story.
(I'm always amazed at how much can be achieved by insulting others)
*goes off to watch the hands of fate do their stuff*

Again, your condescension is wasted on me. However, I believe you calculated that it wouldn't be wasted on the moderator and utilised this fact to extricate yourself from this discussion in an attempt to save face.

colin300

In my opinion its alot of things that cause us to believe in fate even the most brilliant minds may have at one time believed in it.

Fate is a very hard word to describe especially today as there are so many things to match it too. For instance someone could say it was fate that the light bulb was invented or that it was found that world was round where as I and many other people would say that it was eventually going to happen due to the course of human evolution. This can also be linked with fate as it can be said that human evolution is fate.

But in my mind the existence of God is just a way of people having something to hold on to. People say that when you find out there is nothing to live for you kill yourself like aethists this in my opinion is only because of other factors in there life or they are just very weak minded people. But these people obvisously dont understand that there are people that dont believe in God for instance people in the corporate world all alot of them live for is money.

In my opinion it is us that make choices no one else. For example if someone said today that they were God no one would believe it because we would just think they were insane. I believe it was just a group of people 2000 odd years ago that either wanted to exploit people and so created this charater and it worked and no one stopped it because they were making money and they were the only people who knew what was happening or maybe as it is said it was taken from people years after when they wrote it maybe it was just a group of crazy people. But in all honesty people that believe science is wrong need to re examine things because science does not claim to know everything and it does say that, that is why there are theroms these are things that people believe maybe what something is but they leave it open to change and accept they might be wrong. I'm sure 2000 years ago they didn't believe in gravity but why if God is so great and everything like that why didn't he tell them all that we call it simple or maybe the great story writers back then could have made up some other good reason why things fall down instead of going up or staying still u may think I'm being a bit nieve but its the truth. Things like gravity wouldn't rip your belief in God or higher power apart. If it would then it is obvious it is not real if it cant with stand that.

Trip

Colin two things . There is nothing to live for what is the point you die in the end anyway and it's inevitable and the second thing is that i think that people change their beief's every so often like who the **** are we to know what happened 2000years ago nobody really know's what happened that long ago and you really can't believe anything . sorry for being negitive but my view on things changed recently and i think that fate does exist and it has the face of the devil ...hehe

But anyway back to what i was saying i know this really does lie on what you believe in but maybe everthing was invented by people in charge after some sort of disaster and when the next one happens life will change for them and the idea of gravity might change but than with no proof of theories no-one can prove they exist that's why you have to believe in things like fate or like i said earlier there is nothing to live for ....


THE ONLY THING TO LIVE FOR IS BELIEF

colin300

I totally agree with you.

I can never seem to make my mind up on this but i do sway to what i said but I agree with you say you have a very good point.

But as I said some people are only happy with money and dont care about other things.

simu

THE ONLY THING TO LIVE FOR IS BELIEF

OK, say you wake up tomorrow, your beliefs have disappeared (some alien zapped them out of your head!) - would you go on living or kill yourself? (or maybe grab on quickly to the first set of beliefs that came your way!)

Me, I'd go on living, like one of those Samuel Beckett characters. I think you can just live for living as well.

Trip

no because you would get the first set of beliefs
almost straight away well that's what i think because take your situation the first thing i would do is believe in aliens so you would get some ground beliefs and from there work out the rest

Thordon

Disclaimer: The following are my beliefs, based on what science/logic have observed to be the most likely explanations.

In the greater scheme of things, nothing matters, there is no meaning, everything that has ever happened is a result of cause and effect.

Free will is an illusion, if you have a choice before you, your brain will do the calculations and give you a result, you have no choice but to follow that result, everything that determines how a choice is made is determined by the biological processes in the brain.

Similary, love is an illusion, as are all other emotions, chemicals are released in the brain in response to external stimuli and thoughts in the brain, those chemicals trigger reactions in the body and brain. What we percieve as emotion are those reactions.

I dont believe in fate, but I do believe that everything is pre-destined. The difference is the meaning. Fate attaches meaning to events that are significant to the person experiencing them. Everything being pre-destined means that there is no randomness in the universe, no force that can change the laws of cause and effect.

Lets say 2 of our universes existed (linked in no way), and they both started exactly the same, if we looked at those universes after a billion years, they would still be exactly the same (compared to eachother).

While it seems bleak and pointless, we are not neutral and emotionless as the universe is. Humans are controlled by 2 things, instinct (hard-coded reactions to stimuli) and logic (adaptive intelligent reaction to stimuli), some people rely more on their insticts, some more on logic (I am of the latter). I think as long as you respect the rights of others, you can indulge your emotions as much as you like, abuse them even. They offer a sort of pseudo-meaning to life, very hard to define.

Sorry for rambling, I spend ages contemplating this sort of thing, just wanted to share my conclusions.

simu

Lets say 2 of our universes existed (linked in no way), and they both started exactly the same, if we looked at those universes after a billion years, they would still be exactly the same (compared to eachother).

Well, quantum physics allows for genuinely random outcomes so this is not true. And chaos theory states that slight differences in the initial state of two similar events can lead to enormous differences in the outcomes of the two events. So you could end up with 2 very different universes.

I agree with what you say about free will, though - even if you have randomness at a sub-atomic level, the conscious mind isn't aware of this.

Thordon

Ive heard about quantum physics, but I dont believe that true randomness can exist, I heard it suggested that the seemingly random changes in particles could be caused by changes in counterparts of those particles in another universe. I cant accept that something 'just' happens. There must be a tangible reason for it somewhere.

ecksor

Well, even if there is determinism, what difference would it make if we'll never be able to predict the outcome?

simu

Originally posted by ecksor
Well, even if there is determinism, what difference would it make if we'll never be able to predict the outcome?

If there is no free will, punishing a person for their actions becomes problematic. Well, it can be problematic depending on what sort of system of ethics you have. I'd take a pragmatic approach - you have to prevent people from doing "wrong" again, where wrong is whatever a given society decides is inappropriate behaviour.