Can Sinn Fein make the leap from the outside to the inside.

Victor

Originally posted by Boston
Sinn Fein politics in the south seems very different to that in the north. I constantly hear people calling them left wing. Maybe that's the official line, but how can a left wing party steal so many vote from a ring wing party like FF.

The problem is your outlook is politically immature be referring to left- and right- wing.

FF is a populist party - it does whatever will get them elected without any particular philosophy behind it.

Of course the common denominator is nationalism.

Boston

Originally posted by Victor
The problem is your outlook is politically immature be referring to left- and right- wing.

FF is a populist party - it does whatever will get them elected without any particular philosophy behind it.

Of course the common denominator is nationalism.

Hmm actually I disagree, left wing = higher taxes, more social benefits, more state control. Right wing = lower taxes, less social benefits, more free enterprise. That's how I see things, and that's how I classify right and left, in purely economic terms, as they relate to Ireland. On a global scale of right and left wing, nearly all Irish governments would be left wing.

"politically immature" what a spoofy phase, care to tell me what exactly you mean by that.

Victor

Originally posted by Boston
Hmm actually I disagree, left wing = higher taxes, more social benefits, more state control. Right wing = lower taxes, less social benefits, more free enterprise. That's how I see things, and that's how I classify right and left, in purely economic terms, as they relate to Ireland. On a global scale of right and left wing, nearly all Irish governments would be left wing.

Right wing can also mean authoritarian, how could authoritarians permit free enterprise?

Originally posted by Boston
"politically immature" what a spoofy phase, care to tell me what exactly you mean by that.

We can change this to politically naieve if you wish.

Boston

Originally posted by Victor
Right wing can also mean authoritarian, how could authoritarians permit free enterprise?

Right and left is a relative thing, it can mean alot of things, that really is what I said My opinion didn't I.

We can change this to politically naieve if you wish.

who is this we person you speak of, can I now edit your posts? but you know you're right all us politically naive fools voting for Sinn Fein, why don't we see things your way, that we are bringing Ireland to the brink of Civil War, how mundane and pedestrian of us to vote sinn Fein, at the end of the day its not how well you do something its how well you debate it in a talk shop. Cop yourself on, doesn't really matter how politically savvy you think you are, you have the same number of votes as myself.

Boston

Originally posted by Victor
how could authoritarians permit free enterprise?

Missed this, you're a smart guy, you probably know how Fiat and a number of other top Italian companies came into existance. Also didn't BMW make plane engines for the nazi's, didn't IBM do something similiar.

Victor

Originally posted by Boston
Missed this, you're a smart guy, you probably know how Fiat and a number of other top Italian companies came into existance. Also didn't BMW make plane engines for the nazi's, didn't IBM do something similiar.

No, IBM don't make aircraft engines, I don't think they ever have.

sceptre

Originally posted by Boston
Missed this, you're a smart guy, you probably know how Fiat and a number of other top Italian companies came into existance. Also didn't BMW make plane engines for the nazi's, didn't IBM do something similiar.

We'd never have had Fanta but for the Nazis.

I'm unsure where you're running with this, Boston. The cart doesn't necessarily pull the horse even if it's in front.

Tuars

I think SF may be beneifting from the massive floating vote that exists in the Irish electorate. It was with the PD's in the late eighties and shifted to Labour in '92. It floated to FF in '97.

I wonder will SF learn anything from the lessons of the PD's and Labour. As soon as they got into power and had to put their money where their mouths were, the floaitng vote floated off.

I can see similiar things happening to SF if or when they get into power. Now they have a clean sheet since they have no history in government. Once they get a bit of a track record then the novelty will wear off.

Boston

Originally posted by Victor
No, IBM don't make aircraft engines, I don't think they ever have.

I said BMW did, and IBM did something similiar, IBM used to be get alot of nazi references associated with it due to it's history. I'd say go look it up but I know you're well aware of this, and you're just being difficult.

sceptre; Just pointing out some extremes, whereby right wing goverments had resulted in the creation of some of the best known free market players in the world, quiet easy to rebuff my examples but obviously victor couldn't be arse.

mike65

IBM made the indexing systems the Nazis used to count dead Jews with (just in case anyone was wondering).

Mike.

Victor

bubbles, go read this http://www.politicalcompass.org

Boston

Originally posted by Victor
bubbles, go read this http://www.politicalcompass.org

I don't really get the bubbles comment, I mean if you're not going to argue the points with me Victor I'd rather you just put me on ignore, or what ever it takes for you not to reply to me.

thanks mike65, I Kinda wondered what exactly it was they did.

sceptre

Originally posted by Boston
thanks mike65, I Kinda wondered what exactly it was they did.

Interesting writeup here if you feel like reading more. Obviously it's one sided and book-promoting but it's pretty informative.

DublinWriter

It's basically history repeating itself all over again.

Remember that FF were the SF of their day back in the 20's when Dev was closely linked to the Official IRA, and he was indeed, the Gerry Adams of that era, and much demonised both sides of the border.

When he came to power in 1932 after gradually severing the ties with the OIRA, the famous quote from the Commander in Chief of the Army delivering the salute to him when he first came to office was 'Do we shoot him or salute him?'

If Gerry et al can make that final leap, then the big prize awaits - free parking in Leinster House.

The dangerous stage in all this is history repeating itself trice - i.e. the RIRA forming a political wing and the whole sorry saga is played out yet once again.

gaelic cowboy

An awful lot of guff is been spouted in relation to Sinn Fein on this discussion board
ie protest vote / disenfranchised youth / urban ghettos blah blah blah. None of it holds up to real scrutiny none of these classes will get you power but you can use them as a blanket to hide behind on your way up. I notice nearly everyone on the board despises Sinn Fein and rightly so unfortunately you lot dont count as you obviously nearly all fall into a voter demographic that Sinn Fein is not targeting.
Sinn Fein targets across all classes and age groups both urban and rural. Sinn Fein's failure at the polls in the south was really because it was late coming to the reality election's voters in Ireland are quite naturally Sinn Fein in outlook. When the abstention from parliment ideas were dropped it was already to late as FF FG LAB had it down pat between them through skillful use of local issues / dual mandate etc etc. They will increase in size FACT however uncomfortable this may be a serious realignment of civil war politics may not be as outlandish as was once thought one day to stem this tide. Unfortunately even this would not work forever people in Ireland are republican and as such will back a party that espouses these views.
I myself despair at this reality but I fear will have to get used to it sooner than I would like:(

sceptre

Originally posted by gaelic cowboy
I notice nearly everyone on the board despises Sinn Fein and rightly so unfortunately you lot dont count as you obviously nearly all fall into a voter demographic that Sinn Fein is not targeting.

I'd reckon that only a small amount of people here actually despise Sinn Fein. I don't agree with very many of their economic ideas (being mostly an adapted Keynesian myself for reasons of common sense) and I tend to give them short shrift due to the continued links to the IRA, defence of vigilanteeism (as we saw on Q&A on Monday night), firm links to this and (unconfirmed) links to racketeering and other criminal activity but I don't despise them. I don't fear them as people or as a political movement and I haven't voted for them. I suspect I'm pretty typical.

gaelic cowboy

Originally posted by sceptre
I'd reckon that only a small amount of people here actually despise Sinn Fein. I don't agree with very many of their economic ideas (being mostly an adapted Keynesian myself for reasons of common sense) and I tend to give them short shrift due to the continued links to the IRA, defence of vigilanteeism (as we saw on Q&A on Monday night), firm links to this and (unconfirmed) links to racketeering and other criminal activity but I don't despise them. I don't fear them as people or as a political movement and I haven't voted for them. I suspect I'm pretty typical.

Yes and no you are probally pretty typical of the people on this board as most are I suspect students or people working in companies with internet access etc etc. But typical of the average voter in Ireland I would say no most people did vote SF even if that person didn't get in remember SF is very much a first preference vote party but it's main problem is transfers. Thats why doherty didn't get elected in north west

uberwolf

Originally posted by Boston
why is it so hard for you people to grap this concept that the only ones banging on about private armies are the mainstream parties. The rest of us on the ground really wouldn't care less.

Does it not concern you that SF are the political arm of a group of people who are both an organised crime gang and a terrorist organisation?

Mighty_Mouse

defence of vigilanteeism (as we saw on Q&A on Monday night)

I seen that programme and didnt see defence of vigilanteeism. I seen Pat Rabbitte insinuate many accusations at Mary Lou but never having the balls to ask the question straight.

How can a Sinn Fein minister for Justice have overall charge of prisons and prisoner release for example? Could you honestly have confidence in a Minister who had been in prison for terrorist acts or who actively condoned their acts of barbarity?

I don't see why there could be a Sinn Fein minister for Justice. HE just wouldnt deal with cases he had personal involvement in.It was done after the end of the Civil War. Whats the alternative? Wait until all former IRA members have died?

Or who represented drug runners - Gardai are adamant that the IRA are a major drug gang amongst other exploits

I haven't seen any evidence of this. Not one arrest in 30 years?

Having policies has no impact as such, I'm sure most who voted have no idea what Sin Fein policies are,

Again I disagree with you. Its a little condescending to accuse to Sinn Fein vote of complete ignorance.Also at the end of the day how many "lifer" FG and FF voters know their policies?

I was watching ML McDonald for example who at an anti war rally was asked how she could be anti war whilst a member of Sinn Fein - the political arm of a terrorist group - and she had no answer

It's an obvious petty question asked with no real desire for an answer that she's probably heard a million times.

But for them to ever be in a position to have any sway with their policies they would have to move so far from their current position as the voice box of criminals that they would be unrecognisable from their origins.

Right, now we have it: you see them as the voice box of criminals and this is what you mean by moving? Firstly theyre the voice box of republicans and their never gonna move from this. I still don't see what you mean by move by the way. The IRA is on permanent cease-fire what have Sinn Fein to move to or from?

as above their abilities at local level to drum up support has been short term and I gather from anacdotes has been based at least in part on false and unkept promises.

Tangible development of communities at local level will only result in short-term gains! I would think the oppisite, that showing people active developments in their communities is a means to secure a longterm vote. What false unkept promises?

couple of elections? 3/4 elections? thats as much as twenty years!

Does couple not mean 2? By the way, I take it you would have a problem with Sinn Fein in 20 years? is it their "newness" that bothers you?

and this generation of political leaders have, I believe, stated that they would not consider a coalition with the representatives of terrorists

Political leaders will consider whatever is necessary to stay in power

Growth and mainstream are different I believe.

Typical. Still clinging on to something which can subtract from the fact that SInn Fein are now a force to be reckoned with. By the way. after the next election.........remember you said that.

uberwolf

Originally posted by Mighty_Mouse
It's an obvious petty question asked with no real desire for an answer that she's probably heard a million times.

It is far from a petty question it strikes at the heart of the issue here. A political party should not have a private army. Someone has said that no one on the ground cares about this issue, that is a painfully flippant response to a massive issue. And it is an issue which cannot be called "petty". Fair enough questions are often asked for point scoring purposes but SF represents terrorists who have a massive say in the policies of SF - as has been demonstrated through out the peace process.

What false unkept promises?

as I said minor anecdotal ones, but I have been told that this is a pattern. I fully acknowledge this isn't scientific evidence but I brought it up because it is obviuosly an issue for some people and could impact on how SF move on from here.

SInn Fein are now a force to be reckoned with

They are clearly a force to be reckoned with. But they have few political friends and no one to align themselves with. Their options in Europe are few for example. - A radical left group made up principally of communists looks the most likey ally.

The IRA is on permanent cease-fire what have Sinn Fein to move to or from?

permanent cease fire? If this were true then there would be no problem with disarming. Also did a major report a few months ago strongly dispute your story accusing the ira of involvement in punishment beatings and other vigalante activities amongst other things?

SF have to move on from believing that operations outside the law are acceptable before they can have a minister for Justice. for example.

Political leaders will consider whatever is necessary to stay in power

You may unfortuantely be right

Lemming

Can SF make the leap from the outside to the inside?

I refer to the front page of yesteday's (tues 15th June 2004) Evening Herald newspaper. No sooner had SF been given an MEP seat that they jumped into bed with the extreme left parties, eg communist parties, and indeed one italian stalinst party.

I ask everyone who gave a protest vote or said "give SF a chance. They're not dirty like FF" is this what you voted for?

My answer to the original question above, is "apparently not".

Dub13

Anybody have any info on the Parties they joined up with in Europe

Lemming

Originally posted by Dub13
Anybody have any info on the Parties they joined up with in Europe

I still have the paper at home Dub13. When I get home I'll write up the article - it'll take ages though

Hagar

I read an article in last Sunday's paper regarding the source of Sinn Féin's electoral campaign finances. It more or less boiled down to it all being suspect or dirty money.

The amounts involved however were far less than we the taxpayers will have to fork out to the legal profession for the various tribunals that have achieved nothing nor punished anybody. This in turn is far less money than the "golden circle" have ripped off the people of Ireland for over the past number of years. All the taxes these people didn't pay had to be made up out of your wage packet and mine.

I strongly believe that the quality of life for hundreds of thousands of oridinary Irish people was adversly affected by the actions of the "golden circle" by being forced to finance their lifestyle. Haughey for instance is "too sick" to give evidence , yet the money he and his cronies have amassed through shady dealing will in time pass as their estates to their children and become untouchable. This shady dealing is still going on. Why do you think house prices are the way they are? The CAB should seize it now and give it back to the people from whom it was stolen, you and me.

Unfortunately this case and many more like it will never see justice as the people who should be on trial appointed the judges who would have tried them.

There is utter corruption from the very top to the bottom of the established parties and much as I begrudge saying it the only one who is seems remotely honest is Mary Harney.

I think people are more willing to deal with an ex revolutionary who they believe has their interests at heart rather than a shower of cheats and liars who have proven time and again that their only agenda is self advancement.

All of the parties are against Sinn Féin not because of their background, both FF and FG have a lot of blood on their hands, but because the threaten the cosy status quo.

Sinn Féin will become a bigger political force over time as more and more scandals come to light and go unpunished.

To quote Abe Lincoln "You can fool some of the people all of the time, all of the people some of the time but you can't fool all of the people all of the time."

Lemming

Originally posted by Hagar
I think people are more willing to deal with an ex revolutionary who they believe has their interests at heart rather than a shower of cheats and liars who have proven time and again that their only agenda is self advancement.

Sinn Féin will become a bigger political force over time as more and more scandals come to light and go unpunished.

I think that SF have made a terrible own-goal in PR terms with what they've just done at MEP level. I'm fairly certain a lot of people didn't want them to immediately align themselves with hardcore extremist political parties and will think twice about voting that way again.

All they've done is shown themselves to be self-serving by that very action. They're no better. What gets me is that people think the sun shine's out of their arses because they're not FF/FG. My opinion is that a lot of people have just cut off their noses to spite their faces with that *particular* protest vote. Out of the frying pan, into the fire, etc.

aodh_rua

If SF have joined the hard left then its really not that surprising. Labour are already in the main socialist PES along with New Labour. I doubt very much that they would have allowed Sinn Fein join their club.

Plus don't forget the Fianna Fail are in a group with a lot of far right wackos. Their only conventional partners, the French Gaullists lost all their seats in the election.

uberwolf

in respect of the criminal activities the IRA are reported to be involved in this is the latest from todays indo

here
________________________
Sinn Fein mounts legal challenge over report


SINN Fein yesterday began a legal challenge against the Independent Monitoring Commission (IMC) whose report led to the party being sanctioned after the finding that the IRA was involved in criminal activity.

"Sinn Fein is not the IRA and is publicly committed to exclusively peaceful and democratic means," the party said in papers before the Belfast High Court.

Sinn Fein is seeking a judicial review of the Secretary of State's decision to block financial assistance on the back of the report.

The party claims that the legislation that established the IMC was in breach of the European Convention on Human Rights and its conclusions were based on "untested and published information from unidentified sources". Court papers also stated: "The IMC failed to specify the extent of that responsibility and what Sinn Fein could have done about it."

Yesterday's application by Sinn Fein for leave to apply for a judicial review was mentioned briefly before Justice Girvan and was adjourned until tomorrow.

Ivan McMichael



edit * to include second article


also from yesterdays indo
here
______________
Far left EU grouping beckons for Mary Lou


SINN FEIN's new Dublin MEP Mary Lou McDonald is in talks to join the far-left communist grouping on the European Parliament.

Ms McDonald, who was yesterday joined in Europe by Bairbre de Bruin from Northern Ireland, would find herself sitting among hard-left marxists if she joins the grouping.

The alliance - the United Left/Nordic Green Left grouping (GUE/NGL) - includes former communist rulers of East Germany and an Italian Stalinist party.

Sinn Fein has kept its cards close to their chest throughout the European election campaign when asked which parliamentary grouping the party's first MEPs would join.
______________________

interesting that SF wouldn't reveal its intentions...

ishmael whale

I think the expression is 'squirming on the hook'.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/breaking/2004/06/16/story152595.html

“SF still undecided about European allegiances :: latest

Sinn Féin MEP Mary Lou McDonald has said her party has still not designed which grouping to align itself with in the European Parliament.

Speaking in Dublin today, Ms McDonald said Sinn Féin was considering joining the left-wing GVE/NGL grouping.

She said whoever the party aligned with would have to share Sinn Féin’s vision of Europe based on equality and respect for the sovereignty of individual member states.”

uberwolf

Originally posted by ishmael whale

She said whoever the party aligned with would have to share Sinn Féin’s vision of Europe based on equality and respect for the sovereignty of individual member states.”

LOL, including no doubt the acceptance of the principle that citizens of those individual states should be able to go about their business with out fear of injury or death for membership of a political alignment or religious group.

Mighty_Mouse

If this were true then there would be no problem with disarming.

There isnt

Also did a major report a few months ago strongly dispute your story accusing the ira of involvement in punishment beatings and other vigalante activities amongst other things?

And thank you for following this with news of a Sinn Fein legal challenge to the one of the dodgyiest reports written in recent years.