The tread about the holocaust

BlitzKrieg

another aspect on that would be the refusal by other states to allow large number of the jewish population emmigrate over brought to a mind set which (if you read Mein Kampf) believed that Jewish population was inferior to the german populaton if it was going to stay it should *work* its worth, which resulted in the concentration camps...

I disagree with this viewpoint and yours because of:


'Why were'nt they moved to help the production of essential items for the war effort such as tank production etc?'


'The belief of the trains running right to the end of the war bringing more people (not just jews) to the concentration camps (no proof they didnt exist, train times do exist)?'


'What about different aspects in the German state, Some leaders, military and civilian believed in extermination others believed in service and so on. Would you accept that the German state was as divided on its views as with other states. Or would you belief they were united in their views? It is known in Czechslovakia that the Czech police were more vicous and cruel to the jewish population then the standing German forces...'


Do you have the links to these minutes please?

Ireland Awake!

Originally posted by BlitzKrieg
....EVERYONE...SHUT UP FOR A SECOND!!!





now my dear revisionists and traditionalists...you say you have proof and can debate it. well then lets debate it and have your proof in a reasonable fashion. ASOK ETC...SHUT UP IF YOUR NOT GOING TO BE SENSIBLE OK? no retard comments it does'nt help.


calling anyone names just reassures them that they are right because you cant debate.


Now Ireland Awake. Tell me what exactly do you believe. (I'm not bias either way at the moment)

(1) 'Do you believe in the existent of Nazi concentration camps?'

(2) 'Do you believe in the death by execution or extermination of large numbers of jewish european population?'

(3) 'Do you believe that the German policy to the jewish people was of genocide?'

(4) 'Do you feel Jews were mistreated (to any extent you must state how much) by the german goverment?'

(5) 'What is you view of the German policies between 1933-1945;

(6) 'What is your view of the Jewish people between 1921-1945'



please answer these question and i will happily debate with you sensible. If i ask for proof, please direct me to a book, website or location.


Name calling etc will not be allowed, from either side. If you are an idiot i should not need it.

you seem sensible and worth paying attention to.

(1) yes

(2) i believe the only jews that were executed on a somewhat of a large scale are those shot by the einsatzgrueppen in the east. their aim was to execute partisans and poterntials.

(3) no. there was no national socialist plan to wipe out the jews.

(4) yes they were mistreated! they were put into camps and up to 2,000,000 needlessly died due to the third reich.

(5) the nazis had many many reasons to intern jews. it;s hard for anyone to grasp now as we aren't living in post great war germany. and back then blacks and whites couldn't even use the same buses so i don't expect many here to understand why the nazis feared and despised the jews. if i was a german living under national socialist regime i would have given them my total support. hitler was right about many things and also wrong about many things.

(6) the jews were often scape goats. i am still highly suspicious about the jews. have a look at my site www.ireland-awake.tk and look at the jew lists sections. they arouse suspicions in all. i can understand why the jews were blamed for the loss of the great war by the germans. the jews had far too much power in germany and thats the way they have always operated. this is why they have been expelled 80 times from nations in the last 2,400 years. they are not so innocent as they make out. they have a corrupt and devious history. the nazis like others in the past weren't going to tolerate this. people seem to think it was only the germans who have ever persecuted the jews. and they also seem to forget all other attrociaties too. this is because of jew media control. i dont want to bog you down with links but i recommend you read this http://www.natvan.com/who-rules-america/wra.pdf

please answer the questions you put forth to me...

Ireland Awake!

Originally posted by BlitzKrieg
another aspect on that would be the refusal by other states to allow large number of the jewish population emmigrate over brought to a mind set which (if you read Mein Kampf) believed that Jewish population was inferior to the german populaton if it was going to stay it should *work* its worth, which resulted in the concentration camps...

I disagree with this viewpoint and yours because of:


'Why were'nt they moved to help the production of essential items for the war effort such as tank production etc?'


'The belief of the trains running right to the end of the war bringing more people (not just jews) to the concentration camps (no proof they didnt exist, train times do exist)?'


'What about different aspects in the German state, Some leaders, military and civilian believed in extermination others believed in service and so on. Would you accept that the German state was as divided on its views as with other states. Or would you belief they were united in their views? It is known in Czechslovakia that the Czech police were more vicous and cruel to the jewish population then the standing German forces...'


Do you have the links to these minutes please?

yes other countries wouldn't take on many jews, they were aware of the dangers. but the nazis were going to 'make' countries like palestine and madagasgar take them on. but they never got to do that.
jews were needed to work for the reich. it doesnt make sense to kill off the workforce now does it.
i had a link for the minutes for the wansse conferance once. i shall try to track them down again. but all including holocaust historians acknowledge that extermination wasn't once mentioned in the minutes.

pete

Originally posted by Ireland Awake!
and back then blacks and whites couldn't even use the same buses so

Was this in 1930's germany, or did the boy adolf spend his summers in alabama?

BuffyBot

Even Mel Gibson and his Father dont believe in the holocaust, dont tell me you think their "lying" as well ?

The mind boggles - is this supposed to be your winning argument!

All hail Mel and Mel's father for they are our new gods...

BlitzKrieg

Originally posted by Meh
Also, here's a picture of a memo initialled by Hitler himself, detailing the execution of more than a third of a million Jews ("Juden exekutiert") in the Ukraine in late 1942:

Looking at that evidence from a neutral perspective (i am trying very hard not to let personal feelings take over here) its interesting, the translation seems right but it just seems so out of place with the rest of the document...


The document is a report of fights with 'Bandits' over 5 months in the Ukriane. It has the list of casualties, executed prisoners and so on. And then the list of suspects and accomplices. Suddenly squeezed in is the list of jewish executions which is huge compared to all the other figures...


ok...


so many theories can come from this document...

The 'bandits' which could be riots or Guerilla attacks were used as an excuse to hit down on the jewish population, therefore the report had to justify the killings of the jews to Hitler himself which raises more question. Did Hitler pretend ignorance to the policies so not to be implicated. Or were their factions beneath Hitler with more aggressive policies. I must add under any other government except Nazi Germany this would be called crazy for hitler to be denying it. But because its Nazi Germany we accept it...

Then

A much more extreme argument is to question the legitmace of the document. Because of the location of the Jews in the document compared to the other figures, the size of the jewish figures and the apparant point of the document, 'Bandits'??? It seems slightly confusing...Such a huge number roughly 6% of the total estimate killed was killed in one country in 4 months...the same 4 months that the Germans JUST reached Stalingrad...and started their retreat in DECEMBER...

Ireland Awake!

Originally posted by pete
Was this in 1930's germany, or did the boy adolf spend his summers in alabama?

yeah pete, whatever.....

pete

Originally posted by Ireland Awake!
yeah pete, whatever.....

Which is it then?

seamus

What disturbs me most is the "Yeah, so a lot of Jews died, and were persecuted, and reduced to slavery, but by God, there wasn't that many killed" attitude. I mean, what? Who gives a **** how many died? The Nazi regime was pure evil. These guys were committing atrocities against fellow human beings, right left and centre, simply for believing one thing over another, and for not being a member of some delusionsal psychopath's ideal race.

You acknowledge freely that this happened, yet shrug it off. Acceptance of, or agreeing with such ideals makes you just as delusional and the same scum of the earth that the Nazis were. What difference does it make what religion someone is, or what race they are? Why can't you judge each person on their own merits, instead of putting everyone into little boxes which you then burn, gas, starve or perform tests on?

What is it about revisionism that makes it such a great crusade? The further and further we get away from an historical event, the more the events become twisted and skewed. That's the way it is. Jesus Christ, if a few slight inaccuracies about an event that happened 60 years ago make you so passionate, then books like the bible must keep you awake at night, driving you insane with their horribly indulgent and even some completely fabricated stories.
But oh wait, you couldn't give a **** about such things, could you? You only care about making sure it's the Jews who don't get to push their own agenda, their own history. But that means that *you* have an agenda, that *you* want to write *your* own version of events - the exact same thing that you're accusing the Jews of doing! Jeez, now we're in a pickle. Now you are exactly what you claim your enemy is - a manipulative, cunning organisation, trying to promote racial inequality through the rewriting/interpretation of history to suit your own agneda.

Congratulations. You've made the same mistake as all the other rascist morons before you.

BlitzKrieg

Originally posted by BlitzKrieg


'Do you believe in the existent of Nazi concentration camps?'

'Do you believe in the death by execution or extermination of large numbers of jewish european population?'

'Do you believe that the German policy to the jewish people was of genocide?'

'Do you feel Jews were mistreated (to any extent you must state how much) by the german goverment?'

'What is you view of the German policies between 1933-1945;

'What is your view of the Jewish people between 1921-1945'
[/B]

q1: Yes I do, I have been to one, I have seen evidence of some of the items created such as soap from human fat.

q2: Yes i believe in the large scale extermination but i do not believe it was a fully approved policy by the German Goverment but the actions of specific groups acting under war time pressure (note most of the large scale atrocities occured during war time) I am not justifying anyone i just dont believe that it was a mass organised action by the german government. Similar to small but powerul groups in the past and todays world such as the Catholic Church, Muslim riligeous fanaticsm, Aspects of the American military, etc.

q3: already answered my answer was no. I believe the racial policy of the German state was of control of the lesser races by the superior German race...whcih i dont agree with...but it was not delibrate mass genocide

q4: Yes, the Nazi policy was that Jews were less then Human just like the abrioginies in Australia (only considered human since the 1960s)

q5: Germany was a Racial Goverment, A Fascist (N.B: Right Wing, Sand...) state which believed in the importance of itself and of its people, therefore the people of eastern europe (NOT JUST JEWS) were slaves to them in their mindset. Similar to Russian Tsarism in the 1800s. It was a general viewpoint since the 1800s that eastern europeans served rather then ruled...See Russia Pre.1917, Austria-Hungary empire, Turkish empire. Between 1939 1945 they wished to claim the eastern european lands they believed belonged to them, but their actions forced them to face western europe as well.


q6: I refuse to have much of a viewpoint because little is said apart from the holocaust and i agree partially that the holocaust is overplayed not by the Jewish people but by the Isreali State which i feel is a different group representing the same people. I dont like the word Anti-semetic, I think the word Racism is more appropiate. My personal experiance with the Jewish people has not been negative but i have only ever had problems with ignorant people of no religous belief. I have many Muslim, jewish, christain (catholic and Protestant), atheiast, satanist friends and only the ignorant who dont really know their own belief's are piss me off (example, guy i know who abused my friend because he was protestant and called him i qoute: 'A Landed gentry Protestant basterd' Even though my friend was poorer then me and his father a photographer...

BlitzKrieg

Ireland Awake...I had a look at your website...and though i will gladly discuss and debate history with you (Because i am a history studant) I must state now I do not agree with your website at all...Please keep our discussion seperate from it. And on the topic on hand...

Meh

Originally posted by Ireland Awake!
yes other countries wouldn't take on many jews, they were aware of the dangers. but the nazis were going to 'make' countries like palestine and madagasgar take them on. but they never got to do that.

I'm going to draw your attention to this little quote from Hitler again:

...the annihilation of the Jewish race in Europe.

Out of his own mouth, in front of the entire Reichstag.

jews were needed to work for the reich. it doesnt make sense to kill off the workforce now does it

Nor does it make sense to kick out nuclear scientists like Einstein, declare war on America or invade Russia that late in the summer. Hitler did a lot of things that don't make sense.

i had a link for the minutes for the wansse conferance once. i shall try to track them down again. but all including holocaust historians acknowledge that extermination wasn't once mentioned in the minutes.

This sentence is actually true in a narrow sense, but it's a distortion of the real story -- a classic holocaust denier tactic. The minutes of the Wannsee conference used euphemisms like "final solution" and "deportation" instead of "mass murder" and "genocide". But Adolf Eichmann admitted at his trial that the actual language spoken by the participants in the conference was much more blunt, and included terms like "extermination".

Nick_oliveri

[mod edit] - Inappropriate image <snippety snip> [/mod edit]
When i think how full of **** our history and current events are, i go here !

Simi

Maybe this tread could dissapear just like the holocaust one. Please...

Zombrex

There are two things I don't get

1 = Hitler and most of the entire Nazi party hated the Jewish race. But some people, who tend to agree with this hatred, seem to find it improbably that they would attempt to exterminate them, despite all evidence that they did. Why? I am not being smart, I really don't get how people who hate Jewish people (such as modern Nazis) cannot understand why other people who hate Jewish people would attempt to kill them.

2 = If the Holocaust didn't happen, then every eye wittness account, every document, every photograph of a gas chamber, and especially every survivor account, must be a fabrication. Again, why?

Sean1916

Originally posted by Meh
Nor does it make sense , declare war on America or invade Russia that late in the summer.

Hitler declared war on Russia because Russia was ready to invade Germany, do you think he should of just sat back and let them invade Germany ?

sceptre

Originally posted by Sean1916
Hitler declared war on Russia because Russia was ready to invade Germany, do you think he should of just sat back and let them invade Germany ?

The timing of the invasion (along with the small factors like the lack of realisation of track gauge differences and lack of planning for this) is generally recognised as one of the most dumb military mistakes since Napoleon took his own troops out to Russia for a winter picnic.

Sean1916

Originally posted by Wicknight
There are two things I don't get

1 = Hitler and most of the entire Nazi party hated the Jewish race. But some people, who tend to agree with this hatred, seem to find it improbably that they would attempt to exterminate them, despite all evidence that they did. Why? I am not being smart, I really don't get how people who hate Jewish people (such as modern Nazis) cannot understand why other people who hate Jewish people would attempt to kill them.

Just because you "hate" someone does'nt mean you want to kill them.






2 = If the Holocaust didn't happen, then every eye wittness account, every document, every photograph of a gas chamber, and especially every survivor account, must be a fabrication. Again, why?

The "eye wittness" were mostly Jews of course their going to want to get back at the people that locked them up.

They never had "gas chamber"s the Director of the Auschwitz Museum has admitted this .


http://www.rense.com/general53/aauz.htm

Auschwitz Museum Director
Reveals 'Gas Chamber' Hoax

In a dramatic and unprecedented videotaped interview, Dr. Franciszek Piper, senior curator and director of archives of the Auschwitz State Museum admitted on camera that 'Krema 1,' the alleged 'homicidal gas chamber' shown off to hundreds of thousands of tourists every year at the Auschwitz main camp, was, in fact, fabricated after the war by the Soviet Union -apparently on the direct orders of Josef Stalin.

BlitzKrieg

Originally posted by Sean1916
Hitler declared war on Russia because Russia was ready to invade Germany, do you think he should of just sat back and let them invade Germany ?

actually Russia had no intention to invade Germnay due to the lack of industiralisation compared to Germany (hence the constant five year plans trying to catch up) Hitler had always intended to take most of Eastern Europe and Russia, It was France and Britain that he didnt want to fight with. Also he declared war on Germany because of his alliance with Japan, he was hoping america would back down on an immeadiate european action and focus more on its pacific role.


Sean1916 i dont accept the consipiracy of jews lieing about the german camps...they might have (and even this is with a grain of salt so no one go spar on me) exagerated on some details but thats even doubtfull.


I cant think of any large scale movement in history which kept every single member focused on a single idea or goal. So how can the jewish population tell every single person to lie...very unlikely...

sixpack's little hat

a troll with real dedication?

please

Sean1916

Ill say it again their was no "Gas Chambers"

http://www.rense.com/general53/aauz.htm

sceptre

Originally posted by Sean1916
They never had "gas chamber"s the Director of the Auschwitz Museum has admitted this .


http://www.rense.com/general53/aauz.htm

Auschwitz Museum Director
Reveals 'Gas Chamber' Hoax

In a dramatic and unprecedented videotaped interview, Dr. Franciszek Piper, senior curator and director of archives of the Auschwitz State Museum admitted on camera that 'Krema 1,' the alleged 'homicidal gas chamber' shown off to hundreds of thousands of tourists every year at the Auschwitz main camp, was, in fact, fabricated after the war by the Soviet Union -apparently on the direct orders of Josef Stalin.

Er, what he said there isn't equivalent to saying that there were never gas chambers at Auschwitz (Auschwitz I, the main camp) and I presume (hope actually as I've hope for everyone) that you realise that. They moved the fence as well before building the museum at the main site (Auschwitz II (the Birkenau camp) has remained untouched), everyone knows that. There's been a sign next to the chamber for years pointing out that the chamber was reconstructed after the war. Obviously you'll dispute the "re-" part of that but everyone who's visited the place and read the obvious sign has been aware that this isn't the (or "a") chamber that was used in the camp.

Frankly referring to a site that, amongst other things, is currently running a "Secret Flying Discs Of The Third Reich" story on the front page next to a nice picture of a flying saucer is hardly lending any credence to your assertion.

Sean1916

Originally posted by sceptre
Er, what he said there isn't equivalent to saying that there were never gas chambers at Auschwitz (Auschwitz I, the main camp) and I presume (hope actually as I've hope for everyone) that you realise that. They moved the fence as well before building the museum at the main site (Auschwitz II (the Birkenau camp) has remained untouched), everyone knows that. There's been a sign next to the chamber for years pointing out that the chamber was reconstructed after the war. Obviously you'll dispute the "re-" part of that but everyone who's visited the place and read the obvious sign has been aware that this isn't the (or "a") chamber that was used in the camp.

Frankly referring to a site that, amongst other things, is currently running a "Secret Flying Discs Of The Third Reich" story on the front page next to a nice picture of a flying saucer is hardly lending any credence to your assertion.

If "Gas Chambers" had of existed in the first place they would'nt need to build them.

RicardoSmith

Originally posted by Karl Hungus
Considering how much free labour the concentration camps were providing for Hitler, it wouldn't seem too wise of Der Fuhrer to kill off the jews. Let's not forget the medical experiments either! Jews were the bunny rabbits back in the day.

But he certianly did want them killed by the end of the war.
Hence the term 'Final Solution'.

So while his motives for reducing the Jews to the status of slaves probably weren't genocidal, I don't see how you can argue with the end result of this.

Hitler had to be talked into using the other races as a labour source. He only agreed when the labour shortages became critical. The people in charge of the war production were constantly frustrated by Hitlers refusal to see the potential labour source he was throwing away.

earwicker

I have no interest arguing with you about this, nor have I any great interest in arguing with these misguided individuals. I have no idea why you picked my throwaway comment as the opportunity for your effort to distance right-wing politics from Nazism. But I will say this: with some investigation you'll find that right-wing politics and National Socialism are harder to separate than you seem to believe.

Originally posted by Sand
Sorry, just irritates me everytime people equate the Nazis as a right wing organisation. What the hell they had in common with free markets, open border, free movement of capital and people, ending of protectionism ( I mean has anyone even heard of the Nazi concept of self sufficiency? ) and reducing the powers of the state Ill never know.

Like I said sorry, Ill let you get back to arguing with a fanatic denying reality again.

therecklessone

I think we should leave the last word to the Dead Kennedy's...

Nazi punks
Nazi punks
Nazi punks - F*ck Off!

You still think swastikas look cool
The real nazis run your schools
They're coaches, businessmen and cops
In a real fourth reich you'll be the first to go

RicardoSmith

Originally posted by Sean1916
Hitler declared war on Russia because Russia was ready to invade Germany, do you think he should of just sat back and let them invade Germany ?

Actually had always intended to expand germany to the east. His mistake was thinking that the west would join him in that quest. Hes was shocked when they didn't. Hitler never expected to succeed so well in invading France and the low countries. He never intended to invade england either. He was an opportunitist, who got lucky initially.

Ireland Awake!

Originally posted by BlitzKrieg
q1: Yes I do, I have been to one, I have seen evidence of some of the items created such as soap from human fat.

q2: Yes i believe in the large scale extermination but i do not believe it was a fully approved policy by the German Goverment but the actions of specific groups acting under war time pressure (note most of the large scale atrocities occured during war time) I am not justifying anyone i just dont believe that it was a mass organised action by the german government. Similar to small but powerul groups in the past and todays world such as the Catholic Church, Muslim riligeous fanaticsm, Aspects of the American military, etc.

q3: already answered my answer was no. I believe the racial policy of the German state was of control of the lesser races by the superior German race...whcih i dont agree with...but it was not delibrate mass genocide

q4: Yes, the Nazi policy was that Jews were less then Human just like the abrioginies in Australia (only considered human since the 1960s)

q5: Germany was a Racial Goverment, A Fascist (N.B: Right Wing, Sand...) state which believed in the importance of itself and of its people, therefore the people of eastern europe (NOT JUST JEWS) were slaves to them in their mindset. Similar to Russian Tsarism in the 1800s. It was a general viewpoint since the 1800s that eastern europeans served rather then ruled...See Russia Pre.1917, Austria-Hungary empire, Turkish empire. Between 1939 1945 they wished to claim the eastern european lands they believed belonged to them, but their actions forced them to face western europe as well.


q6: I refuse to have much of a viewpoint because little is said apart from the holocaust and i agree partially that the holocaust is overplayed not by the Jewish people but by the Isreali State which i feel is a different group representing the same people. I dont like the word Anti-semetic, I think the word Racism is more appropiate. My personal experiance with the Jewish people has not been negative but i have only ever had problems with ignorant people of no religous belief. I have many Muslim, jewish, christain (catholic and Protestant), atheiast, satanist friends and only the ignorant who dont really know their own belief's are piss me off (example, guy i know who abused my friend because he was protestant and called him i qoute: 'A Landed gentry Protestant basterd' Even though my friend was poorer then me and his father a photographer...

i am only on for afew secongds and briefly looking at posts. just q1 came to my attention. the holocaust lobby has official dropped the story about lampshades and soap. i didn't realise they were still spreading that lie.

RicardoSmith

Originally posted by earwicker
I have no interest arguing with you about this, nor have I any great interest in arguing with these misguided individuals. I have no idea why you picked my throwaway comment as the opportunity for your effort to distance right-wing politics from Nazism. But I will say this: with some investigation you'll find that right-wing politics and National Socialism are harder to separate than you seem to believe.

Hitler's politics are very simple. He did whatever and said whatever it took to gain the support of the lower classes, because thats where the power is. If something became no longer useful to him, he discarded it, and if required would completely change direction on an issue or policy without compunction. If it required violence then so be it. The end justfied the means in all things, was his approach to all things.

Simi

Please close the thread. Sean 1916 is obviously a 13yr old who just got out of school for the summer and is bored. I've seen his type before all into revolutions neo-naziism and what not. There is no point having a real discussion about this. It is just nonsense.