The tread about the holocaust

RicardoSmith

Originally posted by Sand
They called themselves national socialists for a reason. The Nazis were a left wing organisation - they were racists, but racism is not a right wing idealogy by default - anyone of any political persuasion can be racist.

If anything, the Nazis took the perpetual class warfare theme of bread and butter socialism, identified Jews as being the archtypical capitalists, pinned the blame for capitalisms flaws on them and killed as many of them as they could. The only reason they didnt get on with Communists was because they were A) rivals for power in Weimar Germany, and Marx was Jewish afaik. Never going to work out tbh.

Sorry, just irritates me everytime people equate the Nazis as a right wing organisation. What the hell they had in common with free markets, open border, free movement of capital and people, ending of protectionism ( I mean has anyone even heard of the Nazi concept of self sufficiency? ) and reducing the powers of the state Ill never know.

Like I said sorry, Ill let you get back to arguing with a fanatic denying reality again.

Hes right you know. Though I don't see them as being national socialists for any polictical beliefs, but in the belief that a socialist state gave them, or more precisely Hitler, the best opportunity for seizing absolute power. The policies were a means to achieving that end.

Sean1916

Originally posted by Simi
Please close the tread. Sean 1916 is obviously a 13yr old who just got out of school for the summer and is bored. I've seen his type before all into revolutions neo-naziism and what not. There is no point having a real discussion about this. It is just nonsense.

lol

RicardoSmith

BTW why whats this all about the German Govt? What german govt? Hitler was a Dictator with abolute power over everything.

RicardoSmith

...its a thread, not a tread. Thats something you get on a tyre. Miss spelling it once is an accident. But to keep copying it, is stupid.

sceptre

Originally posted by Sean1916
If "Gas Chambers" had of existed in the first place they would'nt need to build them.

That doesn't follow logically. What you can assert is that if a gas chamber existed (or still existed) in May 1945 after the Russians secured the camp, they wouldn't need to build one. That's a reasonable and logical assumption. Anything else is mere unsubstantiated supposition until you can provide this proof you've talked about. Everyone else can spot this gap in your logic so move on to something else.

The chamber is in a museum. It's not presented as an original and it's pretty clear about that. The same illustrative technique is used at the WW2 memorial interpretative centre in St Petersburg and the Peace Park centre in Hiroshima and also clearly indicated as such in these places, as I can personally testify.

Redleslie2

Originally posted by Sand
They called themselves national socialists for a reason. The Nazis were a left wing organisation - they were racists, but racism is not a right wing idealogy by default - anyone of any political persuasion can be racist.

If anything, the Nazis took the perpetual class warfare theme of bread and butter socialism, identified Jews as being the archtypical capitalists, pinned the blame for capitalisms flaws on them and killed as many of them as they could. The only reason they didnt get on with Communists was because they were A) rivals for power in Weimar Germany, and Marx was Jewish afaik. Never going to work out tbh.

Sorry, just irritates me everytime people equate the Nazis as a right wing organisation. What the hell they had in common with free markets, open border, free movement of capital and people, ending of protectionism ( I mean has anyone even heard of the Nazi concept of self sufficiency? ) and reducing the powers of the state Ill never know.

Like I said sorry, Ill let you get back to arguing with a fanatic denying reality again.

Just when this thread couldn't get any madder, up pops David Irving supporter and ardent multiculturalim/immigration hater Sand and his pearls of 'revisionist' wisdom. Right wingers are for open borders and the free movement of people are they now all of a sudden?

RicardoSmith

If any one has been to the site of of a death camp, the atmosphere on site alone will put the chills up you. No bird sounds, animal life or anything. They avoid the site for about half a mile in all directions. Its a very profound experience.

RicardoSmith

Originally posted by Redleslie2
Just when this thread couldn't get any madder, up pops David Irving supporter and ardent multiculturalim/immigration hater Sand and his pearls of 'revisionist' wisdom. Right wingers are for open borders and the free movement of people are they now all of a sudden?

I assume the comment refers to Austria, Germany, of 1920's. In which case its correct by my understanding of the politics of the time.

If you are referring to some other comments by sand in some other thread, thats a bit hard for others to follow if they haven't read them.

earwicker

Originally posted by RicardoSmith
Hitler's politics are very simple. He did whatever and said whatever it took to gain the support of the lower classes, because thats where the power is. If something became no longer useful to him, he discarded it, and if required would completely change direction on an issue or policy without compunction. If it required violence then so be it. The end justfied the means in all things, was his approach to all things.

Simple? Hmm. I'm also not sure why you are quoting me, or why you feel you need to explain Hitler's politics to me. It is Sand's intemperance that you seem to be responding to; I said nothing about the relation (or lack thereof) of "socialism" to Nazism. He made a set of assumptions, that I have no interest in detailing. He didn't like the association and he jumped on the post.

If you read my brief reply, you'll see that all I said in response to Sand's outburst was that Nazism and right-wing politics are not indissociable, which seemed to be his raison de post (incidentally, it might be said that you and I are saying the same thing).

Tommy Vercetti

Originally posted by thejollyrodger
Anti Semetic/Israeli/Jew posts shouldnt be tolerated.

:rolleyes:

BlitzKrieg

Originally posted by RicardoSmith
BTW why whats this all about the German Govt? What german govt? Hitler was a Dictator with abolute power over everything.

thats one viewpoint....while i do not agree with the viewpoints of some of the revisionists here they are semi-right on how one should take history. There is a great book called understanding tyranny and it shows how hard it can be to understand what totalitarianism is and how much control some dictators had, the term totalitarianism has been rewritten 5 times in the last 60 years and has yet to be fully agreed on, during the cold war totalitarianism only applied to communist states while fascist and military were Authoritarian (a cuddly version), now socialist describe totalitarianism as an extreme form of consumerism, and the mainstream is states willing to use nuclear or biological weapons. There is a large divisions between historians on how much power Hitler Really had over the actions of the Riech. So if you would perfer i will use the term Nazi Party instead but i wont say hitler had complete control because this is still largely debated...

Hitler's politics are very simple. He did whatever and said whatever it took to gain the support of the lower classes, because thats where the power is. If something became no longer useful to him, he discarded it, and if required would completely change direction on an issue or policy without compunction. If it required violence then so be it. The end justfied the means in all things, was his approach to all things.

Actually Hitler gained most of his support from the middle class...not the lower class. Hitlers power came from those who's wealth was flushed away by the wall street crash, He presented the NAzi party as a FASCIST PARTY and Sand regardless of what you say Fascism is a RIGHT WING MOVEMENT! not left wing, in fact it is believed fascism was born from Communism as a natural middle class reaction to a threat from below. IT believes in NATION (socialism is international) in Germany's case RACIAL SUPERIORITY, the undenying strength of its people, a one party system and new economic system.

i am only on for afew secongds and briefly looking at posts. just q1 came to my attention. the holocaust lobby has official dropped the story about lampshades and soap. i didn't realise they were still spreading that lie.

Can u give me a link/proof, one without a national movement symbol or white superioty on the front, something a tad bit more respectable, an article perhaps or a website which supports your beliefs without resorting to images of the jewish people as an evil movement...Its the main problem i have swollowing your posts, you argue sensible its just when you send me links of sites with pictures of the KKK and the Jewish religion presented as a snake then i tend to accept the argument less and less. One of the links i found seemed more factual then discrimitive but i'm still researching its background


www.fpp.co.uk

spongebob

Originally posted by Sean1916
The "eye wittness" were mostly Jews of course their going to want to get back at the people that locked them up.

There were few Jewish survivors in the case of Treblinka, the ultimate death factory that acounted for between 600,000 and 1m Jews in 1942/1943 . Of course they were eyewitnesses, eyewitnesses to one of the most barbaric acts in all of human history.

They in turn fingered the guards who worked there . SS records were checked that correlated the movements of the guards during the 1942/1943 period .

Polish Railway employees confirmed that trains bulging with people made a journey to this spot in the woods and were never seen again.

Faced with all this evidence, Military Records, Identification and Naming and the Railway Employees statements most of the guards who were captured and questioned then confessed to the scale of the operation and confirmed the facts.

Treblinka was a death camp, designed solely for large scale extermination of human beings. All or nearly all Jewish. Sobibor and Belzec were the other death camps.

Between them they accounted for possibly 3 Million Jews. This Here contains the facts. I make no apologies for the fact that it is a Jewish site.

In 1942 there were 2.3 Million Jews in the LARGER Polish towns ALONE . By end 1943 they had been systematically murdered in the Death Camps along with other Jewish populations inluding Dutch and Belgian Jews.

"The General Government consisted of the districts of Warsaw, Cracow, Lublin, Radom, and Lvov. According to the estimate of the German authorities, they were inhabited by approximately 2,284,000 Jews. A special organization was set up in Lublin to prepare for their extermination. The actual killing was to be carried out in three death camps -- Belzec, Sobibor and Treblinka, at the eastern border of the General Government."

The General Government was the Nazi Occupation Force in Polands 1939-1944

What happened to these people if not liquidation ? Did the tooth fairy audit her accounts ?

M

BuffyBot

Ill say it again their was no "Gas Chambers"

Repeating it doesn't make it true...

Meh

Originally posted by Ireland Awake!
the holocaust lobby has official dropped the story about lampshades and soap.

This is correct, there is no conclusive proof that lampshades and soap were made out of human bodies, so most mainstream (i.e. non-holocaust denier) historians no longer make such claims.
http://www.straightdope.com/columns/040604.html

Of course, the Holocaust deniers present this as evidence that the Holocaust never happened at all -- again, their usual tactic of taking a grain of truth and coating it with lies.

rs

Originally posted by Sean1916
Ill say it again their was no "Gas Chambers"

It's funny.

It all seemed pretty real when I was there.

The miles of electrified barbed wire.

The rooms full of suitcases, human hair, prosthetic limbs, shoes, childrens clothing.

The train tracks.

The remains of the four gas chambers at birkenau.

The big pit of ash beside the gas chamber remains.

The empty cans of Zyclon B

Wolff

Whats the link between the pseudo republican names like Irelands Awake and Sean 1916 and Nazi apologists ?

Can someone explain this absurdity to me ?

Meh

Originally posted by Wolff
Whats the link between the pseudo republican names like Irelands Awake and Sean 1916 and Nazi apologists ?

Can someone explain this absurdity to me ?

It's not all that absurd, remember the IRA collaborated with the Nazis during WWII. And Pearse's "blood and nationalism" rhetoric sounds a lot like you-know-who.

Marq

AS POSTED ON THE ORIGINAL THREAD

Holocaust revisionism is legal in Germany. Holocaust denial is not. The reason for this odd distinction is that the scholastic revisionism that questions unproven figures for death-tolls, or specific actions of the German army, is presented in a legitimate, unbiased and academic manner. the problem with Holocaust denial is that it never takes account of facts that clearly prove that genicide of the Jewish people occurred, whereas Holocuast revisionism does. While the actual number of people killed is not known exactly and therefore can be examined academically, that people were killed in a systematic manner is provable beyond all logical and reasonable doubt. A further (and much more dangerous) problem with Holocaust denial is that it is almost impossible to find an academic treatise on the theory that is unbiased. It is always found in conjunction with racism and discrimination. This much is clear from the "sources" linked to above.

To deny that the Holocaust happened is Essentially racist - because it is a theory that deliberately refuses to recognise fact. It is racist becuase it singles out the Jews and brands them liars, despite there being overwhelming evidence to the contrary. There is an ignorant bloody-mindedness inherent in the holding of an opinion such as those expressed above, and it is difficult to reach any conclusion other than this: that a person could only purport these things to be true in the face of such evidence against it if there was an inherent discrimination against Jewish people within this person.

Those that subscribe to these theories are often involved in neo-nazism and/or White Supremacism, and are often actively racist within such organizations. What sets Holocaust revisionism apart from a mere "theory" are the weighty connotations of, and connections to Actual discrimination and incitement to hatred. I think it's quite sad that to illustrate this point I only need point you in the direction of Ireland Awake's website here. Those in doubt should go straight to his "Racist Jokes" page, wherein you'll find a tacit admittance that the holocuast did in fact happen (third and thirteenth 'jokes' on the page). Oh, dichotomous as hell.

Also found this statement on Ireland Awake's website: "Second World War (Some overlap w/Stalin. Includes Sino-Japanese War and Holocaust." Huh? What holocaust?

Marq

eoinm

One of the links i found seemed more factual then discrimitive but i'm still researching its background


www.fpp.co.uk

just to point out thats David Irvings website. A wretched Nazi apologist

BTW why whats this all about the German Govt? What german govt? Hitler was a Dictator with abolute power over everything

Hitler came into power by the permissions of both the german people and the ruling bodies. Sure, he played them off against each other, in superb political skill. But right up until he wielded complete power, it was the German people who placed him there. His putsch failed, so he subverted the people with less direct means. Just because Hitler became the all powerful dictator, doesn't excuse the german people for putting him there.

Actually Hitler gained most of his support from the middle class...not the lower class. Hitlers power came from those who's wealth was flushed away by the wall street crash, He presented the NAzi party as a FASCIST PARTY and Sand regardless of what you say Fascism is a RIGHT WING MOVEMENT! not left wing, in fact it is believed fascism was born from Communism as a natural middle class reaction to a threat from below. IT believes in NATION (socialism is international) in Germany's case RACIAL SUPERIORITY, the undenying strength of its people, a one party system and new economic system.

Nazi'ism was placed forward as the opposite of communism, moreso than a right wing movement. It was made to appeal to the middle class, by opposing communism which stood to degrade their lives/profits. The common person was swayed by historic hatred of Jews and Gypsies, and also .by the promise of work. The ruling and old artisocracy was pushed aside gradually, mostly when Hitler suplanted the Oath of allegience in the army, causing most of the old prussian families to lose most of their power.

Nazism (In relation to WW2/Hiter's Nazism) is about hatred and the stand by "right minded" individuals to stand against the storm that is weaker, genetically unsound races. i.e. Eastern nations, Jews, Arab people's etc (It was only around 1943 that Hitler started allowing foreigners to merge and join his armies.)

Anti Semetic/Israeli/Jew posts shouldnt be tolerated.

Why? Its no different than making posts that disparage the Americans, French or any religious sect. The Holocaust was a terrible thing to happen. But its over...

If any one has been to the site of of a death camp, the atmosphere on site alone will put the chills up you. No bird sounds, animal life or anything. They avoid the site for about half a mile in all directions. Its a very profound experience.

Ricardo, I think you're placing a bit of the extreme here. I've seen remains of some of these camps, while I visited Germany/Poland (part of school tour). Its eerie, but animal life does exist. Its just creepy because we know what happened. Demolish the area, and wildlife would return, or just place a farm there. (Theres plenty of grave sites that have towns or farmland covering them).

Ireland Awake, thats one of the dodgiest sites i have seen in a long time.

Stephen

Wow, Sean1916 & Ireland Awake, you are both utter retards of the highest order. The fact that pricks like yourselves are fellow Irishmen makes me sad.

Sean1916

Ok lads if yous are really open minded then you should download this Documentry
http://www.reportersnotebook.com/video/david_cole/david_cole_high_resolution.wmv its made by a Jew who goes into Auschwitz It'll shock and amaze you! you cant call this "neo nazi" propaganda as it is made by a Jew. "Neo Nazis" arent the only Revisionists.

I can also provide links to Muslim Revisionists.

Kelter

Hello?

Is there any moderator on this board at all?

The popularity of this tread proves that there is interest in this topic, but most of the posts are just insults directed at Sean and Irelandawake. Its completely ridiculous. I don’t agree with them in any way but the people who keep on calling them names without making any real point should be banned and from the context of this board are far greater villains.

Anyone who posts the likes of

Wow, Sean1916 & Ireland Awake, you are both utter retards of the highest order

Should be banned for a day straight away as they are just blocking up the board for those who have valid(though sometimes misguided) points to make.:mad:

mike65

Originally posted by Redleslie2
Just when this thread couldn't get any madder, up pops David Irving supporter and ardent multiculturalim/immigration hater Sand and his pearls of 'revisionist' wisdom. Right wingers are for open borders and the free movement of people are they now all of a sudden?

Christ its bad enough with the Nazi lunatics on this thread now the leftist whackos are joining in. Sand is not a revistionist from what I've read, he merely states a plain truth that you dont have to be a right wing facist to be a racist. Thats clear enough. And the NAZI party was clearly socialist.

To Wit -

(1) Leaflet published by the National Socialist German Workers Party (1920)

There is a secret world conspiracy, which while speaking much about humanity and tolerance, in reality wants only to harness the people to a new yoke. A number of workers' leaders belong to this group. The leaders are big capitalists.

300 big bankers, financiers and press barons, who are interconnected across the world, are the real dictators. They belong almost exclusively to the "chosen people". They are all members of the same conspiracy.

The Jewish big capitalist always plays our friend and dogooder; but he only does it to make us into his slaves. The trusting worker is going to help him set up the world dictatorship of Jewry. Because that is their goal, as it states in the Bible. "All the peoples will serve you, all the wealth of the world will belong to you".

Shake off your Jewish leaders, and those in the pay of Judas! And one final point. Don't expect anything from Bolshevism. It doesn't bring the worker freedom. In Russia the eight-hour day has been abolished. There are no more workers' councils. All cower under the dictatorship of a hundred government commissars, who are nine-tenths Jewish.

and

3) Election leaflet published by the National Socialist German Workers Party (October, 1925)

The November revolution, the revolution of the Jews and the Marxist party-rabble have delivered you into the hands of the international loan capitalism. For years you have sweated so that the State can pay the interest on the loan capital. You are damned for all eternity to be wage slaves, if you don't demand: (1) The Nationalization of the banks and the money economy. (2) The abolition of interest-exploiters and Stock Exchange speculators. (3) The abolition of share capital.

and

(4) Election leaflet published by the National Socialist German Workers Party (October, 1926)

Our call goes out to you who earn your bread through honest work. If you don't want your children, and your children's children to be damned for all eternity as slaves of world capitalism, if you don't want to be made the protectors of Stock Exchange bandits and other blood suckers by your treacherous leaders, if you are on the contrary filled with a fanatical will for freedom, then join the ranks of the National Socialist German Workers Party.

Nazi party came about after Hilter infiltrated the the new German Workers Party for the German Army (who were worried about a hard left movement.) and discorvered they had a similair philosophy to him and he joined, gradually taking over the GWP.

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/imt/nsdappro.htm

Mike.

Meh

Originally posted by Sean1916
Ok lads if yous are really open minded then you should download this Documentry
http://www.reportersnotebook.com/video/david_cole/david_cole_high_resolution.wmv its made by a Jew who goes into Auschwitz It'll shock and amaze you! you cant call this "neo nazi" propaganda as it is made by a Jew. "Neo Nazis" arent the only Revisionists.

More half-truths and distortions. Rebuttal available here (scroll down to section 2.1). Summary: the Nazis converted that gas chamber (the smallest of the 5 chambers in Auschwitz) into an air raid shelter late in the war, and the Soviets restored it to its original condition after the war.

Are you actually going to engage in debate here, or are you just going to spam this thread with links?

Stephen

Originally posted by Kelter

Anyone who posts the likes of

(quote)

Should be banned for a day straight away as they are just blocking up the board for those who have valid(though sometimes misguided) points to make.:mad:

I agree, I am fully expecting to be banned for it. But then again I'm only calling a spade a spade.

eoinm

Originally posted by Sean1916
Ok lads if yous are really open minded then you should download this Documentry
http://www.reportersnotebook.com/video/david_cole/david_cole_high_resolution.wmv its made by a Jew who goes into Auschwitz It'll shock and amaze you! you cant call this "neo nazi" propaganda as it is made by a Jew. "Neo Nazis" arent the only Revisionists.

I can also provide links to Muslim Revisionists.

how about opening your own mind??

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/1946hoess.html

http://www.historyofmilitary.com/Into_That_Darkness__An_Examination_of_Conscience_0394710355.html

daveg

My grandfather had the horrid job of burying some of the victims of the concentration camps after the WW2 ended. Nerds like Sean1916 and Ireland awake really get on my tits. Linking their beliefs from websites. FFS do you believe everything you read on the internet? If you knew anyone who had been there... who had witness the atrocities I'd say fair enough. But to say that 6 million jews didn't die in WW2 is just ****ing dumb and ignorant. Can you show me concrete proof that these atrocities didn't happen?

Nerds like Sean1916 and Ireland awake really get on my tits. Linking their beliefs from websites. FFS do you believe everything you read on the internet? If you knew anyone who had been there... who had witness the atrocities I'd say fair enough.

They have the right to their own opinions. The "facts" that you draw from come from books, or from classes in school/college etc. History is normally written by the victors, and their not accepting the normal "history" can be somewhat admirable. I don't agree with them, but as long as they don't crowd other people with their opinions, its fine with me.

But to say that 6 million jews didn't die in WW2 is just ****ing dumb and ignorant. Can you show me concrete proof that these atrocities didn't happen?

I agree with you. But then theres people who disagree that Stalin didn't kill off more people than Hitler <shrugs>

DeVore

People have/are being banned from Politics for direct abuse. I'm leaving this thread here in the hope that someone will write a decent rebuttal rather then just name calling (and a few already *have*).

Personally my family is steeped in Irish history from Collins onward and the rascism displayed by "nationalists" would horrify my grandfathers.

I've also got friends who's familys lost members in the camps. I guess they just got lost on the way home.


Fact of the matter is that you can do this trick with *any* historical event. Prove that the moon landings happened.... prove that the wright brothers flew... were you there? did you see it? Here are some links to other people who share my views, who link to my site when they are convincing others... together we form a deliberately self-duping collective, built on nothing but smoke and mirrors.


Did you know that before the war there were LESS jews in Germany then after it?

Its true. In 1380 there were almost no Jews in Germany at all... after the war there were thousands of them! That proves they didnt really kill them doesnt it?

Normally we would delete this kind of rubbish but I'm going to leave this one here for the moment to show people that there are scary, illogicial (or deceptive) people out there who will say/do/*believe* anything to further their political points of view.

DeV.